Help me prep for an upcoming argument

[BillWeedles]

I need help to prepare for an upcoming conflict with my uBPDw. I have only recently discovered that she has this in the last few months and this will be my first trial using some of the tools in Stop Walking on Eggshells. If someone can help give me some feedback on where I am heading with this, it would be great!

Background

I work for a humanitarian aid organization and travel frequently to international locations (7 countries over 66 days last year). Some of the places I go are not the safest (think Sudan, Yemen, etc.), but I am very security conscious and my local colleagues are cautious with where I go, what I do, etc. I do everything I can to stay safe.

The Complaints

Here are the list of things she has been upset about recently:

1.   She doesn’t want me to do anything outside of work (e.g. go to a market, visit a beach, etc.) because “it adds additional risk.” If I have a free weekend she wants me to sit in the hotel. She has been raging because I went to a local market on my last trip in a Middle Eastern country for Christmas shopping (she loved the presents though)

2.   She’s been raging because the person that took me into the local market was a young, single French colleague that lives there. This in spite of the fact that she invited me and two other colleauges, one of whom was 8 months pregnant.

3.   She also says that my choices show I don’t have good judgment. Of course, I disagree as I wouldn’t have survived as long as I have doing what I do if I had poor judgment.

 

The Problem

I am back again one month later in the same country and chose to go back into the same market with another group of people led by the same girl! Yes, I could have avoided this, but I wanted to go. I don’t feel it Also, my wife herself had requested a few more of the items I purchased that can only be bought there. She says if I do risky things then she is going to do them as well (mostly referring to spending). Also, she has been making threats like, “You do not want to see me mad,” which is funny because I actually see her mad everyday. Or perhaps it’s scary because if what I’ve seen is her not mad then she might be right!

My perception is that this touches on two of her triggers that I have identified this week. These are perceived threats to the family and our relationship. Even though I know the risk to my safety and well being was not significantly increased by the market visit, she views it as selfish because if I am killed then what happens to the family (she’s a stay at home mom).

The Solution?

I need help on a solution to this one. I don’t want to lie, but she is going to go absolutely ballistic on this. However, I am not going to allow her to control me to that extent where she has me in such a FOG that I sit in my hotel room all weekend because she doesn’t want me to do anything outside of work (she did acquiesce that I had to eat and could go out to eat, how generous…, but prefers I eat in the hotel!). If my analysis of the local security context indicated it was unsafe for me to go out, I would stay in the hotel. That was not the case on the last two trips though.

During the last argument, I recognize I did not do a good job of validating and I am going to try and do better at that this time. I finished the Stop Walking on Eggshells book and have been underlining like crazy and will do a better job on some things such as validating her feelings. Be that as it may, I could really use some advice on this one.

What would your approach be?

Would this be a good time to DEAR before the rage begins?

Please help with your recommendations! BTW, I am still traveling and arriving back home on Thursday, so if you don’t get a quick reply it could be the time zone difference. Sorry! Thanks so much!

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[Blazing Star]

Hi Bill,

It sounds like you are feeling apprehensive about the potential discussion coming up.

It's great you have been reading up and are committing to focusing more on the Validation this time round - for that is the key - Validate, Validate, Validate, keep it about Her and Her feelings. Resist the temptation/natural habit to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain).

eg "I am hearing that you are worried about the risks of my work, I know it must be hard to be sitting at home when your husband is in a dangerous place" kind of thing.

Remember that no matter what she says you are doing nothing wrong.

Personally this is what I would do, I wouldn't approach it before it blows, I would just have my validating statements ready, and if she started to rage then I would walk away/end the conversation.

Keep us posted.

Love Blazing Star

[BillWeedles]

Thanks for the tips, Blazing Star. Yes, apprehensive is a good word for this. The results of the last conversation were not good. I took two weeks vacation around Christmas and she basically checked out (disassociated) the whole time. After 10 days my 9 year old daughter asked, "Is mommy going to still be my mommy because she never wants to do anything with the family?" Anyway, that's another topic... .  

I have a question regarding JADE. I have been thinking about this and having a hard time trying to figure out how not to Explain. Typically, we will be in an escalating discussion where she is asking questions. In the past I have done all of the JADE (my bad) in response to these questions. However, when she is asking me questions like, ":)id you go to the market?" and I say, "Yes, I went with a group of colleagues for dinner just near the market and also stopped in to buy some gifts." Isn't that explaining? How does one not explain the situation at all? I'm not clear on this point of JADE. Thanks for any additional tips.

[123Phoebe]

Hello BillWeedles

Sounds like you have an exciting fascinating job; would like to hear more about your travels

It's understandable that your wife would feel scared though while you're away; we hear about so much commotion going on in other parts of the world, that it's easy to tend to think of dangers lurking around every corner -catastrophic thinking.

I agree with Blazing Star, to validate validate and validate some more... .    Not to the point of feeding into her upset and worry, but that you can understand her upset and worry, that you get where she's coming from.

Typically, we will be in an escalating discussion where she is asking questions.

It's that 'escalation' that we want to move away from, take a few steps back when that starts to happen.  Hopefully, once she really feels heard and her feelings have been validated, the conversation won't escalate further into JADE.

Try SET - Support, Empathy, Truth

'I can totally understand your upset and worry. 

Shoot, if you were working across the world I'd miss you and be worried about you, too.  I listen and take everything you say into consideration; think about you often 

This is what I do for a living.  Part of this job is to interact with colleages outside of the confines of the hotel room and it provides a nice lifestyle for the family... .  '

Do you think something like this might work?

 

[BillWeedles]

Thanks for the input, Phoebe. You are certainly correct that the worried feelings would be there for non-BPD people as well. I think this is another validating point I can make. I think this will be a very interesting conversation because it is the same situation, but this time I will try the completely different tactic that you mentioned of SET and validation. I guess the trick is doing the Truth part of that without JADE. It seems that some explaining will have to happen during the Truth. It's just a matter of doing it in a way that is not justifying, arguing, or defensive. Explaining it as fact? Does this make sense?

Great validating comments by the way! I need a lot of practice with these so the suggestions are great!

On a closing note, yes, I have an awesome job that I love. Unfortunately, the travel can be excessive for a young family and I worry about the kids while I'm gone. On a positive note, it gets me out of the BPD environment, allows me to clear my head, and refresh. Also, sometimes, I am able to bring family on trips with me like taking my daughter on safari last year in Africa... .  totally awesome and great confidence building for a child whose mom is BPD!

Bill

[123Phoebe]

How fun... .  a safari! 

I think this will be a very interesting conversation because it is the same situation, but this time I will try the completely different tactic that you mentioned of SET and validation. I guess the trick is doing the Truth part of that without JADE. It seems that some explaining will have to happen during the Truth. It's just a matter of doing it in a way that is not justifying, arguing, or defensive. Explaining it as fact? Does this make sense?

It makes total sense and it is the TRUTH   You love your job and are not going to quit to appease your wife's worries.  Nor, are you going to sit in a hotel room because she says so.  Just don't address it that way to her   I'm sure she knows this too, intellectually.  It's her emotions that are on overdrive.  Validate her feelings and things will hopefully calm down some.

Good luck, Bill!  And let us know how it goes

[Rockylove]

Bill~~I have no great words of wisdom here... .  I'm still trying to keep myself from JADE(ing) during a discussion.  I recently told my bf that he was a master of speech and I was not.  He can turn whatever I say around so quickly that I get flustered and then JADE.  I can write my thoughts clearly and concisely, but when there is any confrontation, I shrink~~my own insecurities at work here.  I think it is going to take a lot of practice for me to be able to speak my peace and then shut the heck up.  If he wants to continue the rage, I can walk away.  So I suppose rehearsing is the key.  It sounds like you have time during flights to rehearse your responses.

[yeeter]

Hey Bill,

I will offer a suggestion but at the same time am curious about how the others here feel about it.

Just tell her less and less about whats going on.  Go ahead and validate whatever she dreams up (the emotional piece).  But dont share what you do.  Dont share the details of whats going on with you at work.  Etc.

Effectively, this is what I have done regarding all my work related activities.  Certainly wasnt my first choice, but I have found that my wife does better by just having no idea whats really going on.  At first she had to come to grips with no knowing, but that passed quickly.  By nature my job is pretty unstable and complex in the dynamics.  No amount of talking through it was ever going to satisfy her need for control, so I just no longer give her anything to get wound up over.  "How was work today?"  "Fine".

[laelle]

I agree with yeeter, but with a different explanation. I'm not suggesting you lie, but that you respect that you are your own person with your own needs and wants separate from hers. In the end no one owns the right to control another person.  Regardless of whether that person does right or wrong things.  To control you keeps her fears in check, but she doesnt have a right to and it makes you feel awful. No matter what you say its NEVER going to fill her dark hole of worry and neediness, so best deal with it in a way that its not taking you down along with it.  I understand her worry, I would be worried too.  Give vague answers to the things you know are going to set her off.  "What did you do today?"  "I had a friend get some stuff for me at the store."  =  I went to the store with a friend and he picked up something and put it in the basket.  Just a suggestion. 

[CodependentHusband]

This thread reminds me of some past experiences where my pwBPD made a big issue of what she viewed as my "lying by omission." I agree that it works best to just be vague and leave it at that. When I get the third degree, I try to reassure my wife briefly, and then I drop it. Sometimes that means refusing to discuss it anymore outright, but I can usually just change the subject and avoid the continued temptation to JADE.

Hope everything works out as best as it can for you. I understand how you feel about this. I know it has to be tough to travel so much with her insecurity as it is.

[yeeter]

This thread reminds me of some past experiences where my pwBPD made a big issue of what she viewed as my "lying by omission."

Yes, and here is the thing - for me.  I agree that its lying by omission!  But I do it (all the time!) for survival.  Its a part of my value system that I had to give up to be able to stay in the relationship, and for me at least its at the core of whats so difficult about staying.

In a healthy relationship I would want to share items that could affect my partner (my physical danger, job loss/change, travel details, etc etc).  But in this relationship I cannot. I struggled with this for a long time until I just accepted that in the practical sense it was what I needed to do to survive.  (but it still bugs me when its thrown back as a reflection of my character - which it is imo). 

[CodependentHusband]

I know what you mean. I used to feel that way. A like from A Few Good Men comes to mind though, and I think of it quite a bit when I can't share something with my wife that I should be able to: "You can't handle the truth!" I never say it to her, but I think it a lot! 

[BillWeedles]

Rockylove I know what you mean as I tend to do the same thing. She really is a master of speech as well and I tend to have the same response as you. It's very frustrating, especially when she reminds me that "for someone having a degree in communications I am a terrible communicator!"

[BillWeedles]

Laelle... .  Your suggestion isactually an approach that I was thinking about as well today. I know she didn't want me to go into the market, but my business actually had a business dinner right next to the market. Some of my female colleagues picked out some scarves for me to take back. This is actually true, just not the whole story. The problems will come if she asks for details!

[Auspicious]

Bill, have you worked through the Lessons yet?

There are no simple answers, but there are tools that can help.

And at a more basic level, a letting go of control. Letting go of the idea that you can convince her that you are right, if only you use the right words.

[CodependentHusband]

And at a more basic level, a letting go of control. Letting go of the idea that you can convince her that you are right, if only you use the right words.

So very true. I stress this because THAT is a light bulb moment! 

[123Phoebe]

Hi Bill,

I don't lie by omission when asked something specific, or make up stories as not to set someone off.  I might not go into heavy-duty detail, but I don't think it's expected of me, either (yawn).  If asked, I'll tell.  If I can look in the mirror and am not doing anything that goes against my own core values, or isn't disrepectful towards loved ones, then so be it.  If they have a problem with me being true to myself, and want to create a ruckus, it then becomes their issue to process.  Because, I don't stick around for drama.

I want an honest to goodness relationship where I'm true to myself while respecting the people in my life, wanting them to feel comfortable enough to be exactly who they are, too; true to themselves.  If I become uncomfortable with their behavior, it then becomes my issue to process... .   And this site has lots of support available in that regard.

People with BPD tend to be extremely intuitive to slights of hand (so to speak).  They have serious trust issues.  When something isn't adding up (in their mind), it might trigger them even more.

I think it's really important to be honest.  Honest with yourself (confident), honest with them, and let the chips fall where they may.  There are communication tools to help deal with the fallout.

Tip-toeing around certain issues, to me, is essentially walking on eggshells.

Respecting someone's feelings is the way to go, while presenting our truth... .  

 

[BillWeedles]

Pheobe,

Your response really resonates with me. Thanks for that. I have a follow-up question though. What is the response when my uBPDw interprets my actions as disrespectful? That is what she has said in the past... .  when I do this, it is disrespecting her (i.e. because I'm not doing what she wants).

Bill

[BillWeedles]

Auspicious,

I have not worked through all the lessons yet. Mostly I have skimmed through them as I just discovered them last week. I have been going through the tools in Stop Walking on Eggshells and focusing on identifying triggers, setting my limits, etc. I guess this means I am in the very early stages of discovery on this topic and trying to move forward as quickly as possible. However, it is a lot to absorb!

Bill

[laelle]

I get what you mean there Phoebe.  Last month while I was at my boyfriends house I put an incense out and it fell and scarred up the floor.  Knowing how he feels when his things get damaged I tried to think of a good lie or cover it up with a chair.  Then I thought to myself, your in a relationship, your not a child, you should be able to honestly say whats happened.  So I told him, and he didnt even care. 

I think to be true to others your have to be true to yourself first, however I do believe there are things that are on a "need to know basis."  My boyfriend and I solve this as we come up against problems.  We were jealous of each others facebooks... .  It brought feelings of lack of trust.  We are no longer friended and now we dont have that issue. We dont need to know, so we dont.

Bill, I really empathize with you on this, omg those BPD's are slick and will consider a white lie to protect peace as a black lie of deceit.

I am sure phoebe can better help you with this than I can... .  she usually sorts me out.    If I was to give advice on being honest I would say it in a validating way, repeat myself and then let her deal with her own emotions about it.  It isnt easy, and she will yell about it, but if you stick to your guns, express your love... .  Eventually she will have to deal with it and let it go.  In the end no one can control another person even if they want to.  Best of luck to you.

[Rockylove]

Ahhh... .  the sins of omission~~don't ask don't tell~~white lies... .    However you want to describe it, there are just times when keeping my mouth shut works!  Whenever I'd go into detail about my day at work, my bf would have strange reactions.  If I had a really good day~~worthy of praise, he'd sulk... .  if I had a particularly difficult day and was physically exhausted, he'd start limping or whining about something hurting.  I quickly learned that when he asks how my day was I just tell him that it was a good day or not as good as I had hoped, but there's always tomorrow. 

As much as I'd love to share my accomplishments with him, it seems to make him feel badly about himself and if I'm in pain or feeling exhausted, it seems that he wants to make sure he matches or tops my pain... .  so I limit what I tell him.  Oddly enough, the less I tell him the more sympathetic he is.

[123Phoebe]

What is the response when my uBPDw interprets my actions as disrespectful? That is what she has said in the past... .  when I do this, it is disrespecting her (i.e. because I'm not doing what she wants).

Bill, I'm still learning and have been at it for years, so please take what I say with a grain of salt.  What works for me might not work for you... .   

I think in the example you provided, I would want to uncover more about her disrespected feelings, so might say something like this:

'Okay, what I'm hearing is that when I do such and such, it makes you feel disrespected... .  Is this correct?'

Her - 'YES, I'm sure, I just said that.'

'I'm listening.  Could you help me understand this better?'

Her (maybe) - 'I tell you NOT to go out to the markets, there are all kinds of crazies around and you go anyway.  You don't listen to me!'

'I'm listening now.  Are you afraid something will happen to me when I'm out?'

Her - 'I've told you this a million times already and you're still not listening'

'Okay, I'm going to clean the basement ().  I'd like to continue this conversation later.  I really do care what you think.'

And then give her the space to think about what just took place.  Let her calm down a little (without telling her to calm down, ya know?)  The conversation didn't escalate, there were no real insults or anything being slung around, nothing was being dug up from the past... .    The foundation has been laid to approach this subject at a later time.

She may not feel it's even worth discussing later, as you showed that you listen and care.  That might be all she really wants.

Also, It sounds like you have a pretty important job and she may feel a little less important in the wake of it all.  So she throws her weight around to feel worthy... .  or something.  Are there ways you can show your appreciation for the things she contributes to the family? 

There are no 'easy' fixes.  Some things work, other things don't.  As Laelle said:

If I was to give advice on being honest I would say it in a validating way, repeat myself and then let her deal with her own emotions about it.  It isnt easy, and she will yell about it, but if you stick to your guns, express your love... .  Eventually she will have to deal with it and let it go.  In the end no one can control another person even if they want to.  Best of luck to you.

 

[laelle]

LOL Phoebe, that sounds just like a conversation between my bf and me sometimes.

[Blazing Star]

I have a question regarding JADE. I have been thinking about this and having a hard time trying to figure out how not to Explain. Typically, we will be in an escalating discussion where she is asking questions. In the past I have done all of the JADE (my bad) in response to these questions. However, when she is asking me questions like, ":)id you go to the market?" and I say, "Yes, I went with a group of colleagues for dinner just near the market and also stopped in to buy some gifts." Isn't that explaining? How does one not explain the situation at all? I'm not clear on this point of JADE. Thanks for any additional tips.

I agree with the others about limiting the amount of info you give out. I think this is the best solution.

And to add to Phoebe's great example about your question about when asked directly about this, you can avoid JADEing by keeping the focus on her. You don't need to explain the situation, you just need to hear her - not hear her words, but hear the emotion and fears behind the words, think of validating as acknowledging those words feelings - does that make sense and make it feel easier to do in reality?

Love Blazing Star

[waverider]

As far as the over explaining part of JADE is concerned think of it as a newspaper article. To normal folks you would read the headline and maybe first few lines of summary. When you are in JADE mode you feel pressured to read out the entire article. The reason they want you to do this is because the more script you give them then the greater the chance of picking up an error in it.

Its an interrogation, and it feels like it.


The reason you want to go to the market with your colleagues is because you want to and you dont feel its unsafe... Full stop, further explaining will you see you making side reasons sound more important than they are, and it will sound that way. You exaggerate, she disbelieves. Before long you have twisted all your reasoning, it stands out like a sore thumb and there's no way back.

[waverider]

I get what you mean there Phoebe.  Last month while I was at my boyfriends house I put an incense out and it fell and scarred up the floor.  Knowing how he feels when his things get damaged I tried to think of a good lie or cover it up with a chair.  Then I thought to myself, your in a relationship, your not a child, you should be able to honestly say whats happened.  So I told him, and he didnt even care. 

This is a good point, you were at a stage were you were thinking reactively, basing your action on what the perceived response was, rather than what was simply right. Then when you caught yourself it showed that your assumptions had got way ahead of reality, and that way of thinking is often a kind of over correction.

It is part of the second stage of living with a pwBPD, first we learn all rules about what to do and what not to do. After that comes the realization that we can CHOOSE whether to use them or not, it is not always necessary to over nanny them.

[Wrongturn1]

Bill,

Please do keep us posted on how the argument with your wife goes (or maybe "went" by now).  The type of situation you're dealing with has happened in my life before, and I'm sure will happen again.  So any insight or post-fight wrap-up that you could provide might give me some ideas about how to handle things next time.  Thanks!

[almost789]

BPD's are jealous. I would keep that in mind when sharing your stories with her. You probably don't need to even bring up the "young single french girl" Also, call her frequently to let her know she's on your mind often. I travel too and I used to call my pwBPD alot which seemed to help him feel reassured. She should not control where you go, she's just going to have to get used to that. But definately you don't have to tell her things that you know might make her jealous.

[BillWeedles]

Alright, here's an update on what has happened. I arrived back in town yesterday and on the car ride home it was one of the first topics on her mind (as anticipated). However, the topic of conversation did not go as anticipated.

What upset her was that a couple of female colleagues had given me money and asked me to purchase something for them in the country where I was. This is not unusual in my organization. For example, if I have a colleague going to Madagascar, I might ask them to bring back some vanilla beans and give them some money to do so. I learned something new about her today. She says that when her dad started cheating on her mom (a BPD suspect), that she was finding receipts for gifts he had purchased for other women. So, now I have discovered a new trigger.

I felt pretty good about how I handled the conversation(s). I was able to remain calm the whole time without ever raising my voice or even intonation. Even though on the inside I was angry that I would have to even have the conversation. I kept trying validating and empathetic statements. This did not go over as well as I had hoped because she has a habit of cutting other people off and not letting them talk. However, the change I noticed is that she wasn't yelling. Instead, she used snide, sarcastic cutting remarks and indicated that if she wanted the items, she would just take them. I disagree with this of course since I used other people's money to purchase the items.

Of course, she has restarted the conversation multiple times, so I must not be hitting the right validating notes or something. That or she's still trying to get me to agree with her that she can take all the items and not give them to my colleagues. She says, "I'm your wife and should get first choice." So, since I had planned on keeping a couple of the items anyway, I actually let her have first pick on two of them and am planning to take the rest in to my colleagues. Of course, now she still wants to take the others since it is difficult to satisfy a pwBPD.

This morning, in my inbox, was an email from her talking about setting boundaries because of emotional affairs. So, I guess she is insinuating that is what happening with me, which of course is not true. I am planning to take the boundaries issue and start a discussion on that. However, I have a related question:

What is the difference between a boundary and a rule? She has already made what I would call a "rule" by saying she doesn't want me bringing back gifts for other people (note the distortion on this as I was just the courier). I can see her setting all sorts of rules that she calls boundaries. Any further tips are appreciated or maybe I should start a new thread on this subject?

[Auspicious]

Of course, she has restarted the conversation multiple times, so I must not be hitting the right validating notes or something.

Possibly, but the one thing doesn't mean the other. You might be validating perfectly, and she still might restart the conversation. Your actions cannot control her actions.

What is the difference between a boundary and a rule?

Rule: "You can't yell at me."

Boundary: "I won't stay in the room with someone who is yelling at me."


But ... .  you will be unlikely to convince her of that.  You need to learn it for yourself, though.