Trauma Bonds

[Phoenix.Rising]

Hello Friends, I started reading a book I've seen mentioned here called The Betrayal Bond by Patrick Carnes.  It is hitting home with me pretty hard.  I'm seeing more clearly that part of my pull or addiction comes from an unhealthy trauma bond that was created. 

It wasn't long into the relationship where I started to almost constantly feel anxiety, mostly over wondering if she was going to break up with me again.  The first time it happened, I was totally taken aback and caught completely off guard.  After breaking up, she would then communicate with me usually the very next day, and often within a matter of days she was 'madly in love with me' again.  This pattern repeated itself over and over.

I began to notice that the break ups would usually come after a period of closeness.  This was her fear of engulfment.  But the fact that I'm slowly coming to grips with is that I allowed myself to be manipulated and abused.  I became hooked on waiting for the attention which would inevitably come after the neglect.  Do these dynamics stem from a dysfunctional childhood?  You bet, on both of our parts.

I was (and probably still am on some level) addicted to the traumatic cycle.  I was waiting for scraps, only to have the rug yanked out from under me once again.  Total insanity.  I'm sorry folks, but this is not healthy, adult love.  I choose not to participate in this insane dance today.  Thoughts?

[Seb]

I remember reading here what another member posted here (I can't remember the name of the member now, unfortunately), but what he basically said was that he came to realise that what he felt, in retrospect, was the result of a trauma bond... .  love isn't meant to be this painful.

[Phoenix.Rising]

I see members discuss this topic occasionally.  This may be a better topic for the P.I. board.  From my point of view, getting a better grasp on these dynamics assists me in my desire to stay out of a relationship with someone with untreated BPD. 

I believe in most cases we unconsciously choose, to some degree, partners who will dance this dysfunctional dance with us.  I learned how to live in anxiety and 'walk on eggshells' in my FOO, so it feels 'comfortable'.  I am learning how to live with some peace in my life, and I prefer that over the anxiety.  My anxiety was so high with my ex at times that I was having chest pains... .  scary.

[almost789]

I'm only begining to grasp the concept of trauma bonding. It's like stockholm syndrome. And I think I have a trauma bond for sure. I keep wondering, WHY am I so attached to this person. Other than the initial early stages and idealization, he does nothing for me. Except I'm very physically and mentally attracted to him. I've suffered far more pain than pleasure from the relationship and keep coming back for more. I don't understand why. I don't have a habit of picking abusive partners.

I think I thought I could save him. And I wanted to return to idealization, but now I know that I'm the trigger to his condition. I actually make him worse. He can't even communicate with me at all anymore and it doesn't matter if I am nice and validating or angry. He's completely shut down and that makes me feel bad too.

[Wimowe]

I'm (re)reading this book.  I was astonished at how addictive my recent relationship with my uBPDxgf became.  Ambiguity and uncertainty permeated the relationship.  I was in a constant state of anxiety and emotional pain and perplexed at my compulsion to persist in it.  I'm hoping Betrayal Bond can provide me some understanding.

[Newton]

Guys and girls... .  I think it's important not to beat ourselves up too much for falling into this trap... .  many of us were set up for it with codependent traits learnt at an early age... .  

Even if we weren't... .  people with BPD seem to have an innate ability to keep us on our toes... .  drip feeding us with just enough intermittent reinforcement of "affection"... .  then sabotaging when things feel too intimate... .  

We are responsible for working out what exactly we are chasing... .  whether it's real or obtainable... .  and why we are doing this... .  

[charred]

Had all those same questions... and more. I fell for a pwBPD some 30 yrs ago... she dumped me, we picked up 4 yrs ago... still had the intense feelings, and it was a rocky hell of a r/s, been NC then LC the last 6 mos.

Did find out some things... .  The posts from user 2010 are very good for understanding the Karpman Drama Triangle... which explains the dynamics of what is going on with the dysfunctional relating.

After reading and getting to understand the BPD disorder, I felt I "got it"... but it didn't explain why I was so hooked on her... .  as she treated me horribly much of the time. My pwBPD was mad and had taken up with another guy and hurled an insult at me "you don't love me, you have an attachment problem"... and from dealing with her in the past I suspected she was telling the truth so I looked in to attachment disorders... and found a lot. Attachment theory is the early psychology of what happens when you are a baby and pickup on how the world is, you can be secure and have an attuned mother and have secure attachments, then you typically do well and rarely end up on these boards. However, there are a few types of insecure attachement, where the primary caregiver (mom ususally) isn't unconditionally loving and/or attuned to the infant, and the kid can end up with an insecure view of the world, there are different types, but what I found was my mom (whose own mother died when she was 5 yrs old... and her father went to WW2 about then, so she was dumped on relatives to raise)... is not a warm touchy person, quite the opposite, I can count the hugs I have had from her on 1 hand. So I have what would be called avoidant attachment, or avoidant/fearful attachement... which explains keeping people at a distance to keep from getting hurt... though I want people close (consciously)... I still push them away a bit.  The second part of the attachment thing... and the part that I think might be relevant to the pwBPD and that strong attachment... is that I craved unconditional love... and when I first met my pwBPD, during the idealizing phase... it was closest thing to unconditional love I ever experienced, and I lapped it up. I didn't understand the clinging phase and being dumped with no explanation at tail end of hater... .  devasted me, not like a normal breakup... more like having your mom die.

So from 2010's posts and board wisdom... and personal experience... .  dig deeper. If you fell for a pwBPD... chances are their is a deep seated reason... they have an attachment disorder, called abandonded child... but they are drawn to certain types of people... typically what is called lonely child... and the resulting trauma bond is very intense for both people, quite dysfunctional, and painful for all involved. (I had to move from family/business/friends first time when I was dumped... second go round I got a divorce, so collateral damage was amazing, lost a second job from pwBPD... )

In my case lots of reading, a good T, and I am finding the root cause to be me... I was hurt a lot growing up, moved constantly, lost all friends over and over, and learned to detach from feelings, and keep people at a little bit of a distance (like business acquaintances.) To keep from dealing with the hurt, I threw myself in to things... school, hobbies, work... and have appearance of successful life, lot of people know me, many boy toys, make good money... and no matter what... I don't feel I did great things by my accomplishments... they always left me feeling empty. Well, the insight has come from T, and understanding why the pwBPD had so much impact on me. I still can't get free of her 30 yrs later. My real mother... I moved out at 14 and just started spending some time around about 2 yrs ago... and I am 50.

Hope that helps.

The bond feels different than normal... and you have    but are compelled to pursue it anyway... .  because its deeper than it seems. I read "A New Earth" by Eckart Tolle... on recommendation from my T, as my original reason to see a T was I was stressed out so much I was getting nervous welts. Book had mindfulness exercises that did wonders for losing stress, switched from worrying about past/future to being firmly in present and that helped. Book also described "egoic" vs genuine/authentic emotions, and almost all the pwBPD emotions/stress were of the egoic variety, so it helped to understand how I got so tied up in knots by her. Digging in to attachment treatments... turns out mindfulness is good for part of that as well, you learn to attach to, experience and own your feelings instead of avoiding them like I did. Later you can learn to tell difference between them, know source and improve how you deal with them. The other book on mindfulness, which gave me hope of improving things was ":)aring to Trust" which is a book on opening yourself up to real intimacy... using mindfulness, and understanding why and how to trust.

The trust book explained so much... yes as a baby I had a cold mother... but a lot of time has passed and trust is central to avoiding people, keeping them at arms distance and having a hard time getting past it. Book explains boundaries as well, and it made sense that pwBPD got past them... .  she ignored my resistance and just came after me, and love bombed me... in to submission. Not something you run in to much. (Unless AXE products work I guess.)

[Phoenix.Rising]

Other than the initial early stages and idealization, he does nothing for me. Except I'm very physically and mentally attracted to him. I've suffered far more pain than pleasure from the relationship and keep coming back for more. I don't understand why.

I very much relate.  The idealization is the initial hook, and it is set deep if we take the bait.  After that, I was just chasing the initial 'high'.  Part of the continued hook for me as well, was the intermittent reinforcement that Newton mentioned.  She would give me just enough to keep me strung along.  However, I cannot put the blame on her at this point, because I allowed it to happen.  I felt a sense of powerlessness at the time, but I know I have a choice today.

Ambiguity and uncertainty permeated the relationship.  I was in a constant state of anxiety and emotional pain and perplexed at my compulsion to persist in it.

This describes what I felt as well... the 'constant state of anxiety and emotional pain'.  I believe it's an addiction of sorts and this is the trauma bond that holds us together.  The anxiety and pain feels 'normal' in a sense when it is anything but.  I kept waiting for her to take the pain away.  She would, on occasion with sex or a kind word, but those times became fewer and further between as time went along.  It wasn't her fault, per se, in that she didn't have anything deeper to offer emotionally, but there was abuse present, and I allowed it.

[Phoenix.Rising]

Hi Charred,  I've read several of your other posts on attachment disorders, and I believe that explains a lot as well.  My mother shows many BPD traits; she might very well have BPD.  It took me a long time to recognize this.  Like you, my mom is not a touchy person at all.

In more ways than I probably want to admit, the BPD relationships were a good 'fit' for me because I didn't have to get too close.  But the pay-off, as we know, ends up being total misery.  I definitely believe there is hope for us, and we have the ability to heal and choose healthier partners on down the line.  This type of change doesn't come without a substantial amount of self-reflection and hard work.

I also liked what you said about mindfulness.  I've recently begun to explore that more, and it seems to be a key component to getting through this.

[almost789]

I too have had the constant state of anxiety. Addicted to the sadness? I've had the stress welts too quite often. What does the book say about how to break the bond? I know I was with mine mostly out of pity. I felt sorry for him, once I found out he had an illness which is based on abandonment fear and I abandoned him, I felt horrible. But the damage was already done and not repairable as I thought it could be.

[charred]

Neither book had anything on breaking the bond. "A New Earth" helped with the stress, as it had mindfulness exercises that directed you to connect to the here and now... close out everything and pay attention to your breathing, physical sensations and work on quieting your mind. Then you find out what egoic relating is... worrying about what other people think, stressing over what might happen, that kind of thing... and instead you pull yourself back to being in the moment, feeling the feelings you currently have. Doesn't sound like it would make much difference... .  but it did. I have had anti-anxiety medication before and they made me feel weird... .  and I couldn't sleep. The mindfulness stuff took about a week of practice to really make a difference, but I lost all my stress... least stressed I have ever felt, and I am not dating anyone,am between assignments on job and fine with it... .  used to be I would be flipping out.

The mindfulness stuff is not magic or right for everything... but for me... I essentially detached from feelings to a good degree. So in a r/s with a pwBPD, that made it a hypersensitive person with an insensitive one... not good.

The mindfulness is simply attaching to your feelings, being present, and not running from them, exploring them and seeing where they go. So in time you might find that hungry feeling late at night after you ate, is an empty feeling inside alright, but not needing ice cream, but a need to be holding someone... .  that kind of thing. Can help with really sympathizing and seeing others point of views. I wanted to be a robot for years... not feel, and its a way to work back to being normal, and emotionally healthier. If I had been really healthy emotionally... .  would never have had the r/s with the pwBPD in all likelyhood. But I have issues and am here, like most of us here.

[Sparkley]

I think some of the non's hardship of evolving past the relationship has to do with the trauma bonds and lack of understanding/or not even knowing about them.  Of course addiction plays a role and can almost been seen as culprit in our ruminating and recipication of push and pull behaviors.  In it's core, the trauma bond is allowed to establish due to low self-esteem and becoming engulfed. 

Most members advise that when a non is thinking about or missing their BPDex... .  take a look at personal inventory... .  are you sick, tired, lonely, bored, etc... .    Trauma bonds kind of take you back to that place b/c even though there was punishment there was also retreat and kindness... .  so when non's tend to feel something negative like being lonely, they desire that good, stimulating part of the trauma bond.  Very confusing to the person who isn't self-aware or doesn't understand the nature of the bond they have with the BPD.

Trauma bonds can be broken and like an addiction to alcohol or other drugs, a trauma bond can easily be reestablished if the non is unaware or not careful.  Some people call that being recycled or reengaging... .  I think it's more about the trauma bond, low self-esteem, the false beliefs, and addiction.

[charred]

I think its a lot more than a self esteem issue.

Didn't refer to it... but there is another book that explained it really well "A general theory of Love". It walks through attachment theory a bit, but adds in some science, in particular... neural nets and the limbic resonance.

My summary... we make a deep seated template of what love is based on our early infant bonding, then we add to that over time. We only resonate with certain people, the ones that match our template, and vice versa. So if you are drawn to a pwBPD, there is some reason deep in you that they resonate with you... .  and you with them. The limbic resonance/neural reasoning makes sense to me... found the book depressing as it seemed to say that I have deep problems from when I was an infant and nothing about fixing them, except idea that its deep and difficult to fix.

Other books were more promising... .  ":)aring to Trust" was excellent, it explains how most communications issues are really trust issues, ties in to attachment theory, and has a lot of practical  things you can do to become more trusting and trustworthy. Some of the exercises are brutal... might want a T to do some of them. No doubt it is dead on for me.

[Phoenix.Rising]

What does the book say about how to break the bond?

The Betrayal Bond does address recovery and healing; it's in the second half of the book, and I'm not there yet.  Here's the link:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=77344.0

I noticed Dr. Carnes includes several exercises to guide one towards recovery and making better choices in the future.  The patterns are no doubt deeply ingrained, but the situation is not hopeless.

Sparkley,  I agree with you about low self-esteem and engulfment.  I also see it as if we are starved for attention as well.  We don't realize it, but I believe most of us are.

A big part of what is key to recovery is first~ AWARENESS.  Without awareness of the part we play and of some of the dynamics, I believe recovery is practically impossible outside of a miracle.  It's similar to an alcoholic who is not aware they are an alcoholic.  Chances of recovery are slim to none.  But once there is awareness, then comes ACCEPTANCE, then CHANGE is possible.

[Wimowe]

I also see it as if we are starved for attention as well.  We don't realize it, but I believe most of us are.

Sometimes I feel a deep and ancient craving for love, affection, validation within myself.  I think it's what some Twelve Step recovery people call a "God hole."

[Phoenix.Rising]

Sometimes I feel a deep and ancient craving for love, affection, validation within myself.  I think it's what some Twelve Step recovery people call a "God hole."

Exactly! 

I believe we can turn that energy we put into meeting our exBPDs every whim towards loving ourselves.  I put a tremendous amount of energy into trying to meet her needs.  If I put just some of that energy into meeting my own needs, I will be on the right track.

[Changed4safety]

I realized I had so externalized that kind of treatment that I have to make it a game--pretend I am someone else in love with me.  I am courting myself--making a little tea area in my home office, putting towels in the dryer so they are warm when my bath is done, catching myself whenever I use negative self-talk.  I am wowing myself with how thoughtful, kind, and gentle and solicitous I am.  It's... .  pretty awesome, actually.  I am cutting out the middleman.     And my therapist is fine with this, he knows I am not Gollum/Smeagol, LOL!

[Phoenix.Rising]

Hi Changed4Safety,  I like that a lot.    

We've been so brutal on ourselves, or at least I have.  It's time to treat myself with the respect I deserve!  She was able to give that to me.  Best to you on your journey.

[charred]

Realizing we have a problem is easy... truthfully everyone I know at some point thought to themselves "I have issues"... but ID'ing them and dealing with them, always didn't happen. My exwife of all people... said this whole pwBPD thing may be a blessing in disguise, because otherwise, I never would have been willing to seek out the root of the problem and deal with it.

Thought "my problem" was ADHD at one time... I am still medicated for it and now am looking toward avoidant attachment... and that even could be the source of the attention issues and hyperactivity. Have been doing things to avoid unpleasant feelings for some time now, since I was a kid, and it kind of makes sense.

Don't feel like I have low self-esteem... .  I feel like it is variable depending on the situation. If I am in a suit, looking sharp and walking in to a meeting I am prepared for, I can knock em dead. If I end up with a group of people I don't know, I am a bit too casually dressed, and off... .  I can feel totally awkward and out of place, like a 3rd wheel. That happens quite a bit... .  used to happen all the time unless I had a purpose meeting someone, so parties and hanging out were unpleasant.

Anyway, hoping I can get more comfortable in my own skin, think that is essential... and knock down that wall I put up, be nice to have close friends again.

[Free One]

I realized I had so externalized that kind of treatment that I have to make it a game--pretend I am someone else in love with me.  I am courting myself--making a little tea area in my home office, putting towels in the dryer so they are warm when my bath is done, catching myself whenever I use negative self-talk.  I am wowing myself with how thoughtful, kind, and gentle and solicitous I am.  It's... .  pretty awesome, actually.  I am cutting out the middleman.     And my therapist is fine with this, he knows I am not Gollum/Smeagol, LOL!

Good for you! I think we all need to do this for ourselves.

[Changed4safety]

Sometimes it feels very silly, and I go for long stretches forgetting when I'm in a low mood.  But it is definitely helping. 

[charred]

So many of us agree we are dealing with trauma bonds... wonder what the success rate is for getting over them, and what the relationship that works after the one that didn't is like. I wonder, because it is so tough to break, seems like it might be based on very deep (going back to being an infant even) issues, and the thing that stands out about the trauma bonded relationships is the intensity of them. (Both good/bad.)  I have gone out with some other women, and they had an interest in me... .  but it was a tiny spark of interest on my side... .  compared with a conflagration with the pwBPD. I can work on my issues, and even keep away from the toxic r/s with my pwBPD... .  but is it going to be for a r/s that is pretty flat/dull? Wish I were kidding, but it concerns me.

For years I kept thinking I would meet someone that rocked my world like my pwBPD had... and assumed it was "true love" and just a matter of time till it happened again. So I am 50, and the only person that had that effect is disordered? That is such a bummer, it sucks. I have no doubt I could find another person with the same fireworks... find another BPDgf... .  that is not an acceptable option. So a few people have said they got past attachment issues, and presumably some have made it past the r/s with the pwBPD. Anyone that made it past, and is "in love", and its normal and have some cheery hope to offer?

[Phoenix.Rising]

I believe I've mistaken intensity for love in most of my relationships.  I'm not sure I've experienced a healthy, love relationship with a woman.  I've felt love for women, yes, but it's been mixed up with a lot of pain. 

A normal, healthy relationship might start out as feeling a bit boring, considering what I've been used to.  But I believe it would be way more satisfying in the long run.  I have more clues now as to what to look for when something starts off unhealthy.  Actually, I saw many red flags in the beginning of my past couple of relationships that I blatantly ignored.  I have an attraction to unhealthy women, but I believe that will slowly shift the healthier I become. 

Also, I am much more in tune now with not wanting to revisit the pain caused by these dysfunctional relationships.  I have a better idea and gauge as to whether someone is doing a relatively decent job of taking care of themselves.  So much of this will depend on how well I am taking care of myself.  It seems best for me right now to take a break from relationships and work on me.  They believe trauma bonds actually alter the brain, but the brain can correct itself.  I feel I need some time to let my brain heal.

Charred, like you, I know it would be easy to find another disordered woman, but we don't have to do that again.  I think you are way more ahead in the game than you realize.

[charred]

Phoenix-Rising

I was married for 22 yrs, and loved my wife... and left her for the pwBPD... bad move in hindsight. Had a daughter with my wife... .  and I suspect that the level of love in the r/s was normal. It just wasn't the same intensity or even close to the r/s with the pwBPD. I had mistaken that intensity for "true love" and after all those years, with having some strife in marriage I was open to "true love"... .  and burned to a crisp by what all happened.

Going out with daughter and exwife tonight and just working on having fun together again. My daughter gets bent out of shape when ex and I seem happy together, but are not together married... so we can do fun stuff ... .  just not appear to be having fun due to each other. Its odd but works. I am in T, and may end up deciding to get back with exwife. Dated a few other girls and they were interested, so was I but... .  it didn't have the fireworks to make it better enough to want to deal with hurt exwife and daughter. So, I just was wondering... is that intensity only in disordered relationships? Heard others talk about going from pwBPD to pwBPD to keep it going (seems like playing hopscotch in a mine field to me... .  insanely dangerous.)

I miss my pwBPD... and she looks great and would be back if I wanted... .  made that clear... also she is ready to start the same exact horrible arguments... made that clear too. So I am stuck speculating and being in T... .  till I figure out what to do.

Makes me think of the Romeo/Juliet story... especially if Juliet was BPD ... it all makes more sense. An r/s between a 13yr old and a 17 yr old that lasted 3 days and resulted in 6 deaths.  Pointless and tragic.

[HarmKrakow]

Phoenix-Rising

I was married for 22 yrs, and loved my wife... and left her for the pwBPD... bad move in hindsight. Had a daughter with my wife... .  and I suspect that the level of love in the r/s was normal. It just wasn't the same intensity or even close to the r/s with the pwBPD. I had mistaken that intensity for "true love" and after all those years, with having some strife in marriage I was open to "true love"... .  and burned to a crisp by what all happened.

Going out with daughter and exwife tonight and just working on having fun together again. My daughter gets bent out of shape when ex and I seem happy together, but are not together married... so we can do fun stuff ... .  just not appear to be having fun due to each other. Its odd but works. I am in T, and may end up deciding to get back with exwife. Dated a few other girls and they were interested, so was I but... .  it didn't have the fireworks to make it better enough to want to deal with hurt exwife and daughter. So, I just was wondering... is that intensity only in disordered relationships? Heard others talk about going from pwBPD to pwBPD to keep it going (seems like playing hopscotch in a mine field to me... .  insanely dangerous.)

I miss my pwBPD... and she looks great and would be back if I wanted... .  made that clear... also she is ready to start the same exact horrible arguments... made that clear too. So I am stuck speculating and being in T... .  till I figure out what to do.

Makes me think of the Romeo/Juliet story... especially if Juliet was BPD ... it all makes more sense. An r/s between a 13yr old and a 17 yr old that lasted 3 days and resulted in 6 deaths.  Pointless and tragic.

I see it as, you've made one mistake (leave your healthy ex-wife for a mental pwBPD). I'm sure you regret the choice and I doubt you truly miss the pwBPD, you miss what that illness gave you, that false sense of intense relationship. If that illness was projected on something else, you would have liked that 2.

[charred]

harmkrakow

You may be right... I miss having a family... you think divorce and it first comes across as wife... but wife and kid is a lot different, I really miss the family life. At 50 dating isn't fun, its scary and difficult, thought I was done with dating new gals decades ago.

My exwife wants me to continue T before she would reconsider us getting together, she even went as far as to say it could end up being a good thing long term that this happened, as she was forced to go back to work, to get herself back budgeting, being social and so forth, so maybe one day I will look back and say it was for the best... .  seems a remote hope, like winning the lottery... it could happen, hard to count on it as a source of hope.

[HarmKrakow]

harmkrakow

You may be right... I miss having a family... you think divorce and it first comes across as wife... but wife and kid is a lot different, I really miss the family life. At 50 dating isn't fun, its scary and difficult, thought I was done with dating new gals decades ago.

My exwife wants me to continue T before she would reconsider us getting together, she even went as far as to say it could end up being a good thing long term that this happened, as she was forced to go back to work, to get herself back budgeting, being social and so forth, so maybe one day I will look back and say it was for the best... .  seems a remote hope, like winning the lottery... it could happen, hard to count on it as a source of hope.

To me it sounds you need to detach from issues that the relationship with the pwBPD gave you. The realization in your head, the clarification that that, all of that, was triggered by an illness and therefore that intense chemistry you felt was fueled by a unhealthy catalyst. It's like a fire in the garden, to keep you warm in the winter. The thing is, this fire never stops in a BPD relationship. I've also had a normal r/s and I also realize now (am still with a gfBPD) that in a normal r/s your needs are also answered ... and boundaries maintain there. You will only come to peace with yourself if you realize that the 'thing' you had with your exgfwBPD wasn't 'real'. It was something fabricated by the illness in her head which fueled everything between the two of you as super intense (and she didn't see it this way). You did however ... and ofcourse therefore you grief and suffer in pain. Go in therapy and rekindle with your ex-wife. Do your best to get back to that life. Why? ... simple ... because you know that you don't want to detox again on another BPD misery.

My shrink tells me when I worry that I will never find 'true intense relationship' again i see to many bears on the way. "Aim, shoot and continue". I have to agree with him.

[charred]

I think she saw it is intense as well, though not necessarily "true love", though she said that many times. Her folks and friends dont want us together as she was a basket case so much of the time. She actually has spent more time with me than anyone else, so ... I am more masochistic than most, we went round in circles and she is getting older and perhaps feels her options are more limited these days.

My gut feel is I made a mistake leaving my wife, had the pwBPD not come in the picture, we would still be together, probably not happily, but still going. The fireworks, BPD, divorce and drama/stress of it all has me seeing a T, and its for the best. What needed to happen with the wife was T for both of us, she needed to be pulling more of the load, and I needed to get off the road (which with the bills she ran up I couldn't cover without traveling)... and unload our pricey lifestyle and learn to relax and live as a family. My daughter is about to be a teenager, and I think having her folks together would be the best thing for a teen, and I have had the freedom to screw around with whoever I want with no limits... .  and I didn't/couldn't/wouldn't do it, so regardless of what I might like to think, the fact is I don't thrive on being alone, I spent over 20 yrs with a wonderful woman, had a child with her and still love her very much. The dream girl I let come between us... .  was a nightmare and as you pointed out an illusion brought on by a disorder.

For tonight I had asked a new gal out, lot younger than exwife (mid 30s) and was both excited and scared to go out. She declined a couple days ago, and I ended up going out with my ex and daughter... and was very relieved to do so... they went graciously, my ex was tired, getting a cold and very run down... .  but went and did her best to have a good time. Daughter had a number of teeth pulled yesterday, was in pain, and hadn't slept much, so she also wasn't at her best, but they put in an effort to go out and have a nice time, because I asked and they wanted me happy. (Hockey game) Our team lost, it was a terrible boring game... but I still appreciate it and think that my dreams of new hot women and having a fun bachelor life style, are pretty unrealistic. I make good money, have a really nice house, 3 cars, a boat, a bunch of other stuff... but I don't enjoy them... they cause tension, take time, money and effort and are not enjoyable without someone to enjoy them with. Meeting new people is anxiety laden... .  facing my exwife and saying I have a new girl... .  is not something I can do but once (after the pwBPD fiasco)... so I am looking at a last shot with the exwife if I go that way. My daughter is going to be hurt by anything other than us reconciling... .  and she is leery of that... .  as we went back and forth already a good deal (I ended up being a ping pong ball between my dBPDgf and exwife for a while... .  the stress is what made me seek out a T.)

I think I know what I need to do long term... just need to work on me and get trustworthy enough to go back in to a marriage and make it work... already have 22yrs of it mostly working... .  and myself to blame for it ending. My exBPDgf... .  will be fine, she already has gone through one guy, she looks great and is quite sociable... her comments and posts and so forth imply she can't live without me, but I have seen her do so just fine. She claims I am the only person that she ever acted this way with and that normally she is drama free and that it is all my desire for drama making trouble. (The 2 divorces, and 7 broken engagements were all with people without issues apparently? She doesn't even know how many people she has dated... she was a very attractive outgoing almost manic blonde with boobs... she didn't spend a lot of time alone.)  So... why am I still hesitating... .  having a hard time ignoring my pwBPD... .  thinking of her often... .  and trying to rationalize some way to make it work.

Its a trauma bond/addiction to something toxic, no doubt.

[HarmKrakow]

I think I know what I need to do long term... just need to work on me and get trustworthy enough to go back in to a marriage and make it work... already have 22yrs of it mostly working... .  and myself to blame for it ending. My exBPDgf... .  will be fine, she already has gone through one guy, she looks great and is quite sociable... her comments and posts and so forth imply she can't live without me, but I have seen her do so just fine. She claims I am the only person that she ever acted this way with and that normally she is drama free and that it is all my desire for drama making trouble. (The 2 divorces, and 7 broken engagements were all with people without issues apparently? She doesn't even know how many people she has dated... she was a very attractive outgoing almost manic blonde with boobs... she didn't spend a lot of time alone.)  So... why am I still hesitating... .  having a hard time ignoring my pwBPD... .  thinking of her often... .  and trying to rationalize some way to make it work.

Its a trauma bond/addiction to something toxic, no doubt.

Good your working on your mental health with your ex-wife.

In regards of the ex-BPDer. Don't worry about her, she will ruin another few lives, which is not unlikely estimate. The things she claims are typical BPD behavior. You want the BPDer because you want what isn't good for you. Because you know within a few months or year, your back in the gutter after she gets rid of you or drives you crazy. You need stability in life now, you have already made the first steps in regards of recovery(!) by visiting a shrink . Seriously you are already in the process of detaching of that BPDer!

[Phoenix.Rising]

I recycled with uBPDexgf several times.  The initial honeymoon was always fantastic, but each time it was more short lived, and the outcome was definitely worse each time.  It felt as if I was giving away another part of my soul after each round.  I don't think I have anymore to give at this point. 

My ex was physically attractive, too, and to be honest, a big part of the hook for me was the sex.  Now, though, when I think about it, a lot of the sex was just that, sex, w/o a real connection. I wanted to think there was a real connection there, and there was at times, but it got to be where it was just purely physical.  I did, and do, have genuine care and concern for her, but the dynamics of our relationship were too volatile.

It would always be more of the same without some long-term therapy/recovery on both of our parts.  What she didn't realize is that I was trigger for her.  The disorder dictates that she run from intimacy.  I see that I have attachment/commitment fears of my own to deal with as well.

I understand you miss her; I miss mine as well.  But the insanity and pain that comes along with it is not worth the price for me today.  I'm glad you're having a nice time with your daughter and ex-wife.  It sounds like a positive to me if you can resurrect that relationship, although I'm not aware of the dynamics that caused your separation in the first place.

I don't think intensity=love, although I wish it did sometimes.  Sure, love can have some intensity, but the BPD relationship intensity seems to burn extremely hot in the beginning followed by endless push/pull and uncertainty.  I also put up with an unacceptable amount of negative treatment from my uBPDexgf.  I'm realizing it's going to take a considerable amount of work on my end to get to a place where I can have a healthy relationship with a woman.  I have a pattern that goes back many years attracting disordered women.  To be honest, I've been feeling very frustrated lately, but I have not given up hope.  At least we are on the path to recovery.