Being undecided is painful

[Clearmind]

Hi Everyone,

I see many folks who are hurting over here on the Undecided Board - whether its you who wants to or wishes you could leave or whether your loved one has or is in the process of leaving --- it hurts like hell!  :'( - I know I have been there!

Being undecided is painful, not making a decision is painful, walking on eggshells is painful. In the end a decision needs to be made - for you!

What makes staying hard to do?

What makes leaving hard to do?

What is your immediate concern right now?

[hithere]

It is strange, I was stuck in this mode for a long-time (a couple of years) but I think in my heart-of-hearts I knew there was no future, I just had to convince myself of this.

In the end I chose to have some short-term pain for a chance at happiness.

What makes staying hard to do?

Sacrificing your happiness for someone that will never really appreciate it.

What makes leaving hard to do?

Fear of the unknown, worrying that they will get better and you would miss your opportunity to be happy.

[HarmKrakow]

Hi Everyone,

I see many folks who are hurting over here on the Undecided Board - whether its you who wants to or wishes you could leave or whether your loved one has or is in the process of leaving --- it hurts like hell!  :'( - I know I have been there!

Being undecided is painful, not making a decision is painful, walking on eggshells is painful. In the end a decision needs to be made - for you!

What makes staying hard to do?

The mental abuse. Nothing more, nothing less. I allowed my boundaries to slip and now she walks over me. It's the mental abuse... self-confidence and self-esteem are just nothing like they once were in the beginning of the r/s.

What makes leaving hard to do?

The gaping black hole of complete nothingness. I was so 'clever' to drop the majority of my friends, screw up work and study for my BPD gf. My fault my responsibility.

What is your immediate concern right now?

How on earth did I get myself in this mess?

[8luec@t]

For me, I think, staying or going is caught up in my tendency to recreate relationships that look and/or feel like the one I had/have with my family of origin.  My false belief, largely unconscious, is that I will be able to "fix" it this time-- that if I do/say/become the perfect child/partner I will be happy and my partner will never abandon me.  Unfortunately this often leaves me revisiting an empty well (where there's nothing for me).

Like so many others, I'm stuck too.  I think of it as "wait and see".  But where is the breaking point?  When do you finally give up?  I suppose it is simply that we do not change until it is too painful to remain the same, and what is "too painful" differs for everyone.

I only wish that my ability to understand the problem provided some relief from the feelings.

[numenal]

For me, I think, staying or going is caught up in my tendency to recreate relationships that look and/or feel like the one I had/have with my family of origin.  My false belief, largely unconscious, is that I will be able to "fix" it this time-- that if I do/say/become the perfect child/partner I will be happy and my partner will never abandon me.  Unfortunately this often leaves me revisiting an empty well (where there's nothing for me).

Like so many others, I'm stuck too.  I think of it as "wait and see".  But where is the breaking point?  When do you finally give up?  I suppose it is simply that we do not change until it is too painful to remain the same, and what is "too painful" differs for everyone.

I only wish that my ability to understand the problem provided some relief from the feelings.

This is spot on. I had the exact situation. What made leaving hard was that I was regressed, and trying to "do over" the former neglectful/abusive/abandoning situation with my parents. Funny how that never works. Our subconscious does some pretty counterproductive things in its attempt to overcome past injury or abuse. But my understanding of the problem did and does help with feelings of shame, confusion and anger.

It's been five years since I was in an r/s with someone w/BPD (w/NPD traits)... .  and I'm still dealing with aftershocks, despite being in a good r/s for three years now. Being with a disordered person is a very damaging r/s for anyone.

What made it hard to stay? It was a horrible living nightmare.

[HarmKrakow]

For me, I think, staying or going is caught up in my tendency to recreate relationships that look and/or feel like the one I had/have with my family of origin.  My false belief, largely unconscious, is that I will be able to "fix" it this time-- that if I do/say/become the perfect child/partner I will be happy and my partner will never abandon me.  Unfortunately this often leaves me revisiting an empty well (where there's nothing for me).

Like so many others, I'm stuck too.  I think of it as "wait and see".  But where is the breaking point?  When do you finally give up?  I suppose it is simply that we do not change until it is too painful to remain the same, and what is "too painful" differs for everyone.

I only wish that my ability to understand the problem provided some relief from the feelings.

This is spot on. I had the exact situation. What made leaving hard was that I was regressed, and trying to "do over" the former neglectful/abusive/abandoning situation with my parents. Funny how that never works. Our subconscious does some pretty counterproductive things in its attempt to overcome past injury or abuse. But my understanding of the problem did and does help with feelings of shame, confusion and anger.

It's been five years since I was in an r/s with someone w/BPD (w/NPD traits)... .  and I'm still dealing with aftershocks, despite being in a good r/s for three years now. Being with a disordered person is a very damaging r/s for anyone.

What made it hard to stay? It was a horrible living nightmare.

Always good to hear the positives!

[thinkingthinking]

I too was stuck in this indecision for a very long time.

Staying meant an enormous amount of emotional weight was always going to be hefted upon my shoulders.  I couldn't seem to get out of that role no matter how many boundaries I tried to set.  It meant losing myself in the process, and setting an inappropriate example for my kids.  The sadness of this really hit home when my 21 year old daughter ended up in the same type of relationship.

On the flip side, leaving has meant constantly questioning whether I gave up or am being selfish.  I've actually had some of my BPDh's family ask me if I thought this was the "Christian" thing to do. (Ugh!) Leaving also means facing up to being alone and making decisions based on what I want/need for the first time in years.  It is scary when you haven't thought about your own needs in such a long time. I realize that I'm actually more comfortable making decisions and working hard based on someone else's wants and am working on changing this.

I think after leaving a relationship with a pwBPD it is very important to spend some time knowing yourself before thinking about another relationship. Without doing that, I'm afraid I would end up right back in the same spot.

[real lady]

Thanks ((ClearMind))   for asking the hard questions... .  we need to KNOW what we really think and feel and this is a great place to do that... .  

What makes staying hard to do?

Staying for me, means that I give up on my dreams of the life that he promised for us and continue to live in the nightmare. Staying requires all my energy and attention to validate him as much as I can, withdraw emotionally and not share my life with him and continue to "live with him" pretending that "I am the one" with the problem. It has been painful to stay and SEE his deterioration (or uncovering the real truth) through my understanding of BPD. It hurts to be with the one whom I have loved who says he no longer loves me. Though I am "still living with him"... .  in my mind and heart I had moved to the UNDECIDED BOARD... .  it was only within a month that I moved to the "LEAVING" board. Emotionally I am GONE.

What makes leaving hard to do?

Leaving is hard because I had given up my life, income, car and any way to support my self and my son when I reunited with him. Leaving emotionally was hard until I RADICALLY ACCEPTED that he "is the way he is and will not likely change very much"... .  He has told me that "he does not love me" and therefore leaving physically will be MUCH easier some day. Leaving emotionally needs to occur before physical separation or it would just be TOO painful for me.

[Bulgakov]

What makes staying hard to do? (separated by commas)

Continuous fighting, blame is always on me, no regard or responsibility for her own behavior even though one of her main gripes with her parents is that they could not take responsibility for their part in her issues (a therapist was tossed because her parents thought this idea was outlandish, they punished her for her therapist's thoughts), apparently I cannot be stressed or busy, she justifies her raging by linking every problem she has with me back to me not listening, on the other hand she does not seem to listen to me at all sometimes, black and white thinking, and at this point I think the only reason people take her side is because (like me) they are afraid of what she is capable of (ie, social manipulation, anger)... .  Too many years of having her behavior supported by friends who I cannot even figure out. They agree with the most outlandish things that she does, until they are confused when it happens to them. Sometimes, everything I say is an excuse for something (as if she doesn't even know the meaning of the word. Everything is an excuse, I can't even respond because it is an excuse. I can't figure it out).  To reiterate, she justifies verbal and physical violence... .  

What makes leaving hard to do?

Thinking things can be different, I let my social life wither away for this person, the fear of relentless persecution and drama, I've behaved and thought in very stupid ways in the name of agreeing with her, what she might do to herself without me in her life, I feel like I am leading her on by staying this long without leaving her, I do love her, and it will be hard not to run into her all the time here... .  


What is your immediate concern right now?

My happiness (I'm not happy), my stress levels, my school work, my money (quite depleted lately, but I'm still a "mooch" according to her), my future and professional/academic goals which are not conducive to waiting on her and being available to her all the time.

I believe the last one is what will inevitably put the nail in the coffin. My weakness might not matter much if my career requires me to travel for periods of time, and I hope it will.

[Clearmind]

Thanks for chiming in everyone! I went this very same dilemma when I separated from my ex. It is hard, there is no denying it! Why is it so hard? Many of the answers are right here in your posts - we tend to gloss over the reality of BPD and the role it plays in our relationship dynamic. And the role we play. We go around and around in circles with no change. Without change there is no progress.

Whether you leave or stay I think you would agree that something needs to change:

Clearing out the Guilt - I really had to work on my own guilt that I was leaving my partner on the church steps for an elderly lady to take care of him - Leaving meant I was abandoning him! What I was in fact doing was abandoning myself! I was trying to fix my ex so I felt good - I felt useful. Feeling useful was a very strong carry over from my childhood - since I grew up in a dysfunctional household - uBPD/alcoholic father.

We need to learn where our guilt stems from. Your partner is a catalyst for the guilt you were already carrying around.

Openly admitting your fear - its scary thinking of the prospect of being without your partner I agree - We have become accustomed to these enmeshed r/s. Stepping back and assessing your r/s with the help of a therapist is always a great idea. You are in this r/s too for whatever reason. Find that reason - start to heal yourself from your own past trauma - this is in turn will help your relationship. We are part of the problem! Imagine that

Look after yourself/find yourself - aside from your partner. I did everything with my ex and never left time for me - All this did was breed resentment - and I would then lash out. Find a hobby, reconnect with friends, take some of the focus of your partner and onto you.

Start talking - when I started to open up about the abusive nature of my r/s I began to see where things needed to change. Folks in abusive r/s tend to keep quiet... .  you matter - start talking.

What are your values and your boundaries - without knowing your values (personal beliefs you want to live your life by) you cannot set boundaries. Do some googling on what your values are.

Learn to listen to your body - these relationships are confusing - all our body indicators are off kilter - for a few reasons however mainly because we have become accustomed to not putting us first. Learn when things dont feel good in your belly - stop/pause and listen in to you every once in a while. Steal a few moments to balance your emotions and learn ways to get more into your Knowing your own triggers and using Wise Mind

Stop the blame shifting - often when we feel guilt, fear we tend to cast blame. Yes your partner may treat you poorly - this is where we set a boundary - never during a rage.

Remove yourself from the conflict cycle - Humans have a tendency to want to be right. We will argue, coerce til our hearts content to prove a point - We don't have to convince anyone - we learn to have enough self worth to believe in ourselves/trust our opinion too much to argue a point. Allow your partner to have an opinion - you don't need to change it for him/her.

Try to avoid the need to change your partner - your partner is who they are - so are you - partnership is about working with the differences - trying to change a partner is rather controlling and fruitless.

Support rather than enable - there is a big difference between supporting and enabling. Are you Supporting or Enabling?

Taking personal inventory - take a candid look at you - do you react or do you respond? Often the reasons why we react is feel personally attacked and we defend and counter-attack - golden rule of reducing conflict is by not reacting but rather listening to your partner - using validation where necessary and acknowledging feelings/emotions.

Understanding emotions - using validation is important for anyone in your life. Validation is not about agreeing its about validating and understanding that there may some remnant of truth of how they are feeling. After all they are there feelings not yours!

I would be really interested to hear if anyone has anymore they would like to add?

[morningagain]

Clearmind,

I just became undecided.  I am currently the antithesis of your name.

I do love your list.

Yesterday (or the day before - not sure) I wasn't sure about my identity but I knew who I wanted to be and where I was going in life.  I had let go, forgiven, found peace in my heart.  No more anger.  Still do not understand everything about her, but I am now finding out more about myself, and committed to change.

Now?  Still no anger.  But all of the above can be renamed 'vulnerable' (to her)

Funny how she calls now with the offer - as if she knows from 1400 miles away.

She wants to try again.  I was certain I did not want to consider ever trying again unless by some miracle she went into serious therapy and then remission.

So, mindfulness practice helped me to not jump at the offer, to engage her about getting therapy - in ways that are not so threatening to her.

But whoa Nellie!  My heart and mind and memories and thoughts are all pulling me apart.

It seems as though I am undecided.  And YEPPERS!  IT HURTS!  sometimes.

[elemental]

There is a book "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay"

You can find it on amazon. It can really help in the thought process.

[tuum est61]

Thanks for chiming in everyone! I went this very same dilemma when I separated from my ex. It is hard, there is no denying it! Why is it so hard? Many of the answers are right here in your posts - we tend to gloss over the reality of BPD and the role it plays in our relationship dynamic. And the role we play. We go around and around in circles with no change. Without change there is no progress.

Whether you leave or stay I think you would agree that something needs to change:

... .  

Clearmind, this is an excellent post in an excellent thread.  

Finding the truth about youself and treating that person with honor and respect can happen whether you leave or stay.  This is the quintessential "gift" of having a BPD partner.  

It can, however,  take a while to find that gift amidst all the heartache... .   

[Jagged]

I'm chiming in a bit late here, sorry.

Staying, for me, means several things. I would be abandoning a lot of my values. Going back on my word, that if there was ever violence again, I would get my stuff together and leave. My family would be intact, which says a lot, but then again, I don't think it's always best, especially in families like mine.

Financial security, which means a lot when raising a lot of kids. Again, not super important- my FOO got by with nearly nothing, and I have no permanent scars from hand-me-down clothes and new-to-you toys. I have a lot of plans for the future that include still being married to my husband- carefully thought out, precisely planned dreams, that I would find it very difficult to let go of. When he isn't dysrgulated, he can be a great Dad, and can be very helpful with household things. Staying also, however, would carry a calculated risk of further violence toward myself and/or my children, and I can't have that, and I can't always be standing there, supervising- that's impractical, and nearly impossible.

Leaving for me, would mean giving up my lifestyle as a stay-home parent, which is something I didn't want to have to do for a few years yet. Something came up, I will add to my post later, but I don't want to delete the things I've written 

[Clearmind]

Finding the truth about youself and treating that person with honor and respect can happen whether you leave or stay.  This is the quintessential "gift" of having a BPD partner.  

It can, however,  take a while to find that gift amidst all the heartache... .   

Thank you tuum and aint that the truth.

For me personally, I tried so hard to make myself right instead of respecting and honoring the emotions he was feeling.

I realized after the event, the drama I brought to the relationship.

Jagged - you are never late for the party! What changes can you make to help your relationship. SOme of your own ideas or ones posted above.

[Jagged]

Leaving would also mean a big knock against my pride. A lot of people would find out things I don't want them to find out, and while it shouldn't figure into my decisions, ... .  well, that's just the way it is. My own parents are still married, and I always thought once I got married, it would be forever. Leaving would end that, and I would be thrown into a world I don't understand; one I have no real roadmap for- single parenthood. I'd have custody battles, because I wouldn't expect my uBPDh to just agree to supervised visitation, and one of my biggest fears about leaving is that he would have unsupervised access, and I wouldn't even be protecting them from his rages, I would be leaving them alone to deal with them. It would, however, mean that I could start raising my kids to have my values, and help them form their own, show them they can have healthy boundaries (something I am struggling to teach them now) and perhaps feel less like I am rushing from one emergency into the next. I'm a pretty mellow person, and I don't handle black and white thinking very well, so all this now or never, my way or the highway stuff would not be missed.

Clearmind- I've been in contact with some local services that will set me up with some free counselling; hopefully I can become more assertive, and less turtle-like. This should have been my first step, a long time ago, but it will be an important one, whether I decide ultimately to stay or to leave. Even though I first came across this site over a year ago, it's still only a 50/50 chance I will act on my boundaries, because I freeze up whenever things go sour. I'm starting to think a big part of why things aren't working is because I ma not be cut out for a r/s with a high conflict person. I don't know that I want to, which I suppose is why I am on undecided now. I'm hoping my H go for counselling of his own, after I have been able to set a few firmer boundaries. One I am going to need to set eventually will be that I won't be in a relationship with an untreated mentally ill person- there are members on the staying board who I know have had success with that, simply because they meant it. I'm hoping to ge to the piont where I can mean it soon.

I guess this goes undeer the category of trying to change my partner, but I dont think it's unreasonable to want him to get help, when as he is, he can;t be trusted with the kids, because of his outbursts, not to mention his general lack of responsible behaviour when he is dysregulated.

I am going to work through your list, Clearmind. It seems to be a good start.

[Clearmind]

Thanks Jagged. You may agree that a parent’s role is to provide our kids with balance, to guide and support. To teach a child healthy boundaries we also need to be actively protecting our own healthy boundaries – kids mirror. Are we doing this?

Part of being undecided is also realizing that you may still be in the house, actively living together. Whether we stay or leave, learning ways to respect our BPDs partners’ point of view, working with the differences, not reacting, using boundaries is vital – for us, the relationship and our kids.

It also requires us to quit walking on eggshells to appease – this is enabling.

If we stay to protect kids then we need to work on us – we are the other half of the marriage/relationship/union.

That is awesome you are receiving some therapy – great stuff! And yes it is an important step. We all carry our own issues and we project this onto our partners. Part of being in a healthier relationship is not to cast blame for how we feel – not take their accusations and blame to heart.

Fight, flight, freeze is a common reaction to stress for many of us. There are another two – fidget and faint. It’s a survival strategy that many of us learnt as kids. For me personally, I would flight – I spent a great deal of time in my room away out of harms way of my uBPD/alcoholic father.

Deer in headlights is a familiar feeling – fear based response. Worth investigating with your therapist.

Boundaries are something you feel Jagged. Ever get that feeling in your belly or heart that feels like butterflies – before you freeze – stop and check in with yourself and your body – it stands to reason that your values are being compromised and you need to set a boundary.

For e.g. To this day, and I am now 39, I can call my father at home at 5pm and he is drunk. I know it before he even finishes saying 3 words. My body tightens, my belly aches – Before the conversation even hits a low point I get off the phone. This is my boundary – I will not talk to my father when he is drunk. And while we are at it – I don’t call him after 6pm!

Its not unreasonable for any of us to wish for our partners recovery – we cannot force it – again this is about boundaries. For me, I wouldn’t stay with my partner unless we both sought therapy – he refused – I bailed.

[Clearmind]

She wants to try again.  I was certain I did not want to consider ever trying again unless by some miracle she went into serious therapy and then remission.

Is this a boundary for reconciliation?

So, mindfulness practice helped me to not jump at the offer, to engage her about getting therapy - in ways that are not so threatening to her.

Nice one M999!

Mindfulness helps us to balance and centre ourselves. Often when we have been in these r/s for a while we are accustomed to just bending and busting our own boundaries.

Mindfulness is mostly CBT type stuff - thought monitoring – I’m an advocate however I feel that its only 50% of the picture - a small piece is missing from CBT – your intuition/gut – what your body is warning you of. Pausing, checking in on your belly is also a fabulous tool.

[morningagain]

She wants to try again.  I was certain I did not want to consider ever trying again unless by some miracle she went into serious therapy and then remission.

Is this a boundary for reconciliation?

So, mindfulness practice helped me to not jump at the offer, to engage her about getting therapy - in ways that are not so threatening to her.

Nice one M999!

Mindfulness helps us to balance and centre ourselves. Often when we have been in these r/s for a while we are accustomed to just bending and busting our own boundaries.

Mindfulness is mostly CBT type stuff - thought monitoring – I’m an advocate however I feel that its only 50% of the picture - a small piece is missing from CBT – your intuition/gut – what your body is warning you of. Pausing, checking in on your belly is also a fabulous tool.

Hi Clearmind - ty for the support and advice and insight.

Therapy was a boundary for reconciliation, but at this point, I have taken a step back and before I get there, - that is to say "you do this and OK", it is me that has to mature, grow, become more stable, more self esteem, confidant, willing to hold the line without getting upset and being slave to my own emotions and fears.  If I was the man I want to be, I would be able to try now, without any commitments or change from her.  Even with therapy and full remission, any bad partner (that is, a mismatch for her) could be the cause of the external events that would catalyze her to regress back to the disorder.  I may still be that "bad partner".

I have to change me first.  Then make a determination whether I can be a positive influence and healthy partner for her.  AND if that is the right thing for me.  I become part of the equation on both sides - am I good for her and is this relationship the right thing for me?

Not sure all what mindfulness will mean to me, but thus far it has been powerful - I now have the strength to slow down and control my behaviors, which in turn has positive effects on my mind and my inner well-being.

For the moment, I am able to speak with her, have positive and mutually fruitful conversations with her.  Perhaps this is the most we will ever have again together - and if that is the case, well, that is awesome.  Perhaps I will mature more to the point of being a healthy partner for her.  Perhaps she will likewise.  But I can only change myself and evaluate as I go.

Right now, my boundaries are not to engage in the negatives, not to participate in the Karpman triangles, not to hold grudges or to become defensive to accusations, slights, etc.  And just to be centered as best I can and continue to work on myself.

I have been identifying my fears - such as she will find someone else - again.  If that happens, it happens.  But I am not ready for a relationship.  Me.  Right now.  I am not ready for reconciliation.  Either way, in the end, I will be OK.

[Clearmind]

Oh my Michael! What wonderful, emotionally mature insight you have.

I remember you hitting the board and its so lovely to see some positiveness in how you feel about yourself.

----

I was astounded to learn there are 3 very different entities in a healthy relationship and none overlap or lead to enmeshment.

1. The contribution we make to improving ourselves

2. The contribution our partner makes to improve themselves - without us interfering

3. The relationship! How those factors from #1 and #2 contribute to the union

You will note there is no 'US' per say! Each person is only responsible to themselves and the relationship. If we begin to feel like our partner must do x,y,z for you or me in order for our needs to feel met -- the relationship is on a slippery slope. We improve ourselves to help the relationship.

Two emotionally independent people is key! As many of us know our partners are not great at being emotionally independent. So that leaves you! It does not mean you pickup your partners slack it means working on your side of the fence and being firm with boundaries, and developing some emotional maturity.

All the best to you Michael

[momtara]

I was in a lot of pain from this every day.  Then my hubby did some scary things that reminded me why I needed to leave.  At least it made the decision easier, though I still have doubts about giving up.  He is in therapy and part of me wants to try again.  But I don't know if I have it in me to get back together with him and wait for another breakdown or episode.