NOT engaging... finally learning

[real lady]

I think I am finally learning a bit about HOW TO NOT ENGAGE in conversation that opens up dysregulation and STUPID arguments that I NO LONGER WANT in my life... .  here it goes... .  

He started or tried to "start something" yesterday morning that I completely SQUELCHED... .  He saw a battery powered craft lamp sitting in the kitchen area; it had been in my son's room but I asked him to bring it to me so he would not use up the batteries or leave it on in his room... .  

So uBPDso asked "WHAT is this lamp doing here? why is it facing UP TO THE CEILING?... .  it could blind someone... .  " ( I thought to myself... .  REALLY? Wanting to "engage me and dysregulate" over a LAMP?"

I simply LOOKED AT HIM with a "what kind of question is that" look and replied... .  I very briefly stated: "It isn't ON"... . (NOT answering the WHY OR HOW but the REAL CONCERN that I heard... .  a safety issue; it wasn't even plugged in... .  duh)

"I KNOW (snarky and nastily said) that" he said "but if it were it could BLIND SOMEONE"

I calmly replied (I AGREED)  "Yes, I suppose it could".

He sighed (due to me NOT ENGAGING in his argument) and said "WELL< I was trying to talk to you"... .  

I replied "we talked"

and then he sat at his computer... .  (I silently LAUGHED to myself... . he can't even find something TO GET MAD at... .  as if he "must" dysregulate daily... .  NOT WITH ME he isn't.

I am going for day three today.

[seeking balance]

validation works wonders -honestly.

SET techniques really can disarm a volitile situation.  I know you are on leaving to detach ... .  but definitely keep practicing the staying board communication tools since you still have contact - they really do help not make things escalate.

What in you has changed to make you handle these conversations calmly and fact based rather than likely in the past saying all that you now only think?

I know I said way too much - rather than keep is simple.

Good Job!

SB

[real lady]

validation works wonders -honestly.SET techniques really can disarm a volatile situation. 

Hi ((seeking balance)) love your name btw... .   

You are saying that SET= Support, Empathy and Truth can disarm a volatile situation and I want to emphasize that TRUTH, calmly stated has been the MOST helpful for me. To state a truth, without emotional response from myself, when I don't see how I can either show "support" or "empathy"... .  especially in this discussion... .  it was just too clearly NOT going to turn into an emotional point of conversation. I was not going to allow it.

I know you are on leaving to detach ... .  but definitely keep practicing the staying board communication tools since you still have contact - they really do help not make things escalate.

I am finding that LESS time with him, LESS talk with him, is helping him... .  He just had to call me and tell me something about a repairman coming to the house. No problem. I clearly stated my "solution" and my commitment to help with it. No issue... .  whew... .  the FIRST conversation where I felt like I might have been talking to a normal person. He even seemed to "hear me" and questioned what I said instead of JUMPING on it and dysregulating.

I am going for day three... .  thanks for the encouragement... .  I need it and APPRECIATE IT. 







What in you has changed to make you handle these conversations calmly and fact based rather than likely in the past saying all that you now only think?

I know I said way too much - rather than keep is simple.

Good Job.

SB[/quote]

[real lady]

DAY 3

I made it... .  onto Day 4 now... .  

The secret so far is spending LESS TIME with him... .  about an hour before during the day before I pick my son up from school and then; when I can work it out, staying out with my son after school (library, shopping, etc) and getting home, making dinner and getting him ready for bed, etc... .  not too hard.

Today I will be home for a repairman to come bring a part for a newer appliance but he will be up for it as well... .  hopefully, I can get away and spend the afternoon with my son again. Get home and make dinner, get him ready for bed and go to bed myself. Been watching some TV/news in the bedroom away from uBPDso and the puppies; it is working.

[Maryiscontrary]

Yes, the interaction, as we all know, is very triggering to him. Less is more.

[real lady]

Exactly, Mary... .  it seems that nearly ANY attempt to communicate is a "trigger"... .  my uBPDso seems to be SEVERE in his quick EXTREME responses so I do NOT start a conversation.

I "seem to be a trigger for him"... .  but then I think that ANY ONE is a trigger in my opinion.

YES< DAY 4 is looking GOOD... . I am watching a little TV while he "games" and waiting for son to go to bed and I will retire as well... .  I am tired tonight.

[real lady]

Day 4 went really well 

1) extremely LIMITED contact... .  only see him upon making breakfast for him... .  getting son from school, coming home and making dinner... .  a little while afterward and early bed for me... .  had nearly 7 hrs of contact but SPARSE and with NO emotional "talk" at all... .  

2) He had a matter to deal with yesterday and I made sure that I was "not in it"... .  whenever he has had a third party; I end up being stuck in triangulation (read definition) and demonized and blamed if anything went wrong. I "extricated" myself, even due to his "insistence" that I "stay and help".

With this, I realize that he SAYS one thing but seems to INSINUATE a much deeper thing and HE WILL NOT SAY that he "would like" or "needs" my help with something. He drops the end of sentences... .  as... .  "Well, I would like you here because... .  oh never mind, go and have a good time"... .  as if I would feel GUILTY and WANT to stay and help... .  this time I did not... .  even though he said "it would be easier" for him (I already handled the set up, took the girl puppy, and just wanted him to deal with it alone for a change... .  it worked)

3) NOT offering or reminding him of things that HE "needs to do"... .  several that I would like to help and remind and assist with but I will NOT, they are still sitting waiting, mail, bills, taxes, etc. He is too busy GAMING.

4) I am truly NOT TRYING to talk with him about anything... .  I accidently let a few things out (about my family) and quickly stop and he makes comments which I affirm but I don't count this as "talking". I barely feel "heard" and he seems to ALWAYS give such negative, unhelpful and even hurtful comments if I am "in pain" of any kind. (NO empathy at all; even when I tell him that "I NEED comforted in this, etc... .  )

This thread is to CLOSELY LOOK at the ways that I can limit contact and decrease/eliminate his dysregulation toward me to make my life as best that it can be while I am living with him.

*Hi.*Thanks for stopping by; comments are welcome. 

[almost789]

Hi Real Lady,

I only read your first post as im headed out, but bit made me laugh.

It seems theyre drawn to the drauma of the fights. Perhaps its their way of releasing anger. Fighting and projecting on you. I found when i stayed i became the one he could take all his bad feelings out on.

[real lady]

Hi Real Lady,

I only read your first post as im headed out, but bit made me laugh.

  I thought it was humorous too. It just seems SILLY how he TRIES to "start something" and I give him NOTHING to pick on... .  

It seems theyre drawn to the drauma of the fights. Perhaps its their way of releasing anger. Fighting and projecting on you. I found when i stayed i became the one he could take all his bad feelings out on.

TRUE... .  I believe that this is WHY they do it, subconsciously or UNconsciously, but we DO NOT DESERVE to be their "verbal punching bag"

[almost789]

I've read all your post now and I see you are detaching. You know you are detaching when the things they do DON'T BOTHER YOU ANYMORE. I think this is where I am getting to now. Its funny how while you are in the midst of all this grieving process everything seems blurry. People tell you, you need to be doing this or that, but you just can't see it, can't feel it. But in your own time when you get there on your own it all becomes clear and easy.

[real lady]

Day 5 was an even shorter contact day... .  only 4 hours.

Wednesday, I had asked him if he was going to watch "Criminal Minds" on Wed and he responds "it will probably be a rerun" to which I replied "well, it would give us a chance to do something together" and so I went upstairs (and YES, it was a rerun, ) He had no response.

Yesterday, uBPDso managed to "rage his voice" ONE time at me because I had said something to him about dinner in "too low" of a voice and then when I raised my voice enough for him to hear me, he YELLED "I don't have my headphones on now"... .   I didn't "pick up the gauntlet" ((chosen))

I said nothing about it. Said NOTHING to him during dinner. Kept the peace and went upstairs to put son to bed and watch Person of Interest in the bedroom. I see him every morning and I get up and out before he goes to bed. He said that he didn't "want me sleeping in his bed"... .  so he doesn't see me sleep in it  I am enjoying THESE SHORT DAYS with uBPDso... .  

[real lady]

Day 6

I realize that only a person who is "trying to live with" a person who is mentally ill (BPD) would "be counting" the number of days IN A ROW that no dyregulation occurred. I also want to note that NO "real" communication or interaction happened either and in this case, his addictive game playing was constant.

I don't care to "disrupt the peace" to "point out" that his gaming is excessive even by more "permissive" thought... .  it is outrageous. He is an addict.

I am trying to keep from "feeling stuck" and am TRYING to do thing that I love and KEEP A POSITIVE ATTITUDE. I am positive that his addiction and BPD has nearly killed our relationship and I feel that my attitude is realistic about this. I hate it.

I had a dreams that he gave me a "check" for a certain numbered amount of dollars... .  BARELY enough to move, get an apartment, a car, insurance and a "new start"... .  I was happy in the dream and thought that I would rather take it and RUN than to stay with him. I realized that the check would mean nothing to him but a new life for my son and I.

I am NOT engaging... .  totally detached and NOT even trying to explain anything. I can be talking about something that I am looking at the internet, he tell me "how it is" and I just DROP IT and say "I suppose so"... .  there is NO use or purpose or GOOD RESULT that comes from "trying" to talk with him about anything.

If he says that it is black, it is black and I have to NOT CARE that I see brown. He sees black and that is all that matters. What he thinks of his opinion rather than even giving any credence to my opinion.

[GreenMango]

Part of detaching is letting go of caring how he spends his time if it isn't directly affecting your leaving agenda.

So his game time, whether he eats with you, etc need to be less of a concern.  He's a roommate... .  basic cordial stuff but emotional investment is waning.

What's your leaving plan RealLady?  You have a time frame and logistical coming together?

[real lady]

I am doing the "happy boogie dance" now... .  DAY #7  was another good, non BPD day. If I can manage to have NO MORE than 5 hrs contact... .  includes making and eating breakfast/lunch and dinner with him... .  it works out rather well. I have been going upstairs about 8:30 to put my son in bed, shower/bathe, lie in bed and watch tv upstairs until about 10 when the light goes out. Last night, after dinner and getting son ready for bed, I was on the computer; 9:30 and I was TIRED; been up since 5 am with about 7 hrs (average) sleep for me and when I said "I am going to bed"... .  he replied "going to bed so early?" (where has he been?) I said "I am tired, there is nothing urgent on TV and there isn't anything that I want to do down here so I am going up". In other words, YOU GIVE ME NO REASON TO WANT TO BE WITH YOU and I would RATHER be ALONE... .  I got out of bed at 5 am again this morning just as he was going TO bed... .  

((Green Mango)) Actually, IF I had a job and car, I would have been "moving out" already with the number of hours that he is on his game... .  literally 12 hours a day. The problem is that he is sleeping when I need to "move around the house" and so only some packing downstairs is possible on this schedule. I am still working on this part... .  any suggestions are appreciated.

I need to get my leaving plan in order... .  with NO job or car, I am starting from scratch. I hope to look into a job SOON and when my son visits his father for the summer, I could actually "get some hour" and put some money in the bank for a car, etc... .  until then I am packing and detaching more each day.

I don't even see him as a roomate but someone that I am living with and caring for, for now... .  he pays the room and board and I "help" him around the house. I don't have any obligation to "be his friend" or prove my love for him... .  that is LONG GONE... .  

[real lady]

Day 8 is nearly at a close... .  this is a record but I realize that I HAVE CHANGED A LOT Of things in my behavior and expectations. I more calmly accept the realization of the "triggers" and try to AVOID "pushing the button"... .  

• I accept that he does NOT take responsibility for things: our puppy tore up his water shoes and the mess was left on the floor. She got a pair of slippers today so I imagine the mess is still there and then some more.



• The car: I have a concern; a KNOWN concern and just mentioned that "I am concerned" about the car (it's ability to be dependable, etc.) This is just too stressful for a BPD so he ignored my comment and said something non related after dinner.



• I have asked him the past few days "will you be watching any tv tonight?" making it clear that HE is the one who is not spending time "with family".



• I suppress my feelings and expressions of remorse at loss of our relationship. He says "thank you" when I used to reply, smiling, with an "You are welcome hon"... .  I just feel like a maid to him, nothing more.



• I don't allow myself to dwell on things in his presence; as one poster commented "THEY CAN READ YOUR MIND" and I believe this... .  

Been a quiet day... .  Didn't see him until 4 pm. and so I am on my 4th hour now... .  5 is the bewitching hour and when I disappear before he turns into a BPD. ... .  

[GreenMango]

It's good to know you have your son and that you are renewing focus on him.  It does sound like you are putting the plan together and getting things ready.

It takes some time getting into a relationship like this its gonna take sometime getting out.

Your postition is difficult because you are trying to detach whole in the same house. It must be a daily reminder in mindfulness.

Keep doing the things that are helping and let us know the good parts of journey too... .  any job leads, how the relationship with your son is, anything... .  

[real lady]

Thanks again ((Green Mango)) I only had 4 hours of contact and he gave me some information briefly (puppies need treats and car needs gas) this morning but THAT IS IT. He spent his 12 hours on his game.

I was in bed by 9, lights out at 10... .  I think he actually "talked to me" at 4 am about our girl puppy but I did not respond and was able to fall back asleep. He has been coming to bed by 5 so that is the time that I get up, out of bed, say hi to the girl puppy and go downstairs with the boy puppy.

I cannot believe that I have made it 8 days in a row without dysregulation but then I realize that I have had MINIMAL contact, NO EMOTIONAL banter, NO emotional or attempt to "reach him" or to "share my life" with him. DETACHED doesn't even begin to describe that I have SEPARATED MY LIFE from his. Emotionally detaching is one thing but feeling that there is NO connection... .  a void, a very sad thing to contemplate if I do not remain mindful and focused.

Positives and things that I have learned:

• My son has always been my focus... .  I "keep them apart" and stop conversations innocently started by my son by saying "that is enough, finish your dinner, blah blah blah" and whatever else I need to say to him.       



• I make it VERY clear that I do not like when uBPDso "jumps into" my son and my conversations and I clearly state "I was talking to R". NO explanation. He has his headphones on, he asks a question to something that he heard, if he is "not part" of the conversation, he is NOT invited into it.



• I am VERY aware of "what vibes I am sending" and have to clarify and set boundaries that "I am talking to myself" when he seems to want to dysregulate by complaining that I am whispering... .  I am constantly telling him that I do NOT intend to "talk to" him while he has his headset on... .     



• I DO NOT explain or have any conversation about "going to bed"... .  I clearly state it so HE KNOWS that he "has" the puppies and will have to watch them whether he is playing or not. I have them from 5 am - 2 p.m. and again after dinner before I go to bed... .  he is "too busy" to take them out so I can work on my computer... .  I am thinking about taking the computer upstairs and making a desk area in the loft so I can BE AWAY from all of it... .  I am aware that I NEED SPACE and do whatever I need to do to get it.



• Household bills and financial obligations are concerning me... .  the car needs repair, bills need to be paid and he doesn't seem to care... .  I am concerned. Of course, he gives me his card for gas and dog food and grocery shopping... .  

[real lady]

Days 8 and 9 were the same  ... .  Day 10 was also a great day.

The ONLY difference is that I showed him that I wanted to share good news that affects my son and I (and him for as long as we are here... .  did not say that) and he listened. He actually got off his computer game for almost 15 minutes.

Again, only had 5 hours or less of contact all day... .  today will be different; days where he HAS TO deal with finances and include me, my son and our puppies, tend to be stressful, possible triggering days for him.

He has "other" bills that I KNOW that he is aware of but hasn't taken care of... .  I have been the ONLY one to go to the mailbox and household bills will need to be written and mailed... .  I think he is late on property taxes, etc... .  but he is taking care of one bill today... .  the first day in about 3 weeks and on a day like this... .  I "just go along for the ride"... .  I let son play his game or read a book and I don't try to talk to him about anything... .  I mean ANY THING... .  a random comment about a sign can be enough for him to dysregulate... .  

Walking quietly with an "whatever" attitude. Day 11... .  hope it is a good one... .  was ok so far.

[real lady]

Day 11 was GOOD. As I expected and planned against, he "tried" to dysregulate in the car THREE times over a short period of time... .  non emotionally, very matter of fact tone of voice and unthreatening body language succeeded.

He tried a few "digs" and upon the first one, I left the room and stayed out while he "took care of his bills"... .  he tried to curse that something wasn't in its place... .   I am not responsible for his things and made sure that I did not "speak" to it... .  NO PROBLEM.

I still feel betrayed. I suppress feelings of "wanting to love" him. I constantly am MINDFUL of my situation and how I feel and what I need to do to take care of myself through this... .  he continues to play his game.

I feel like a SUCCESS in a CRAZY situation. 

[real lady]

Day 12... .  still GOOD... .  but I see that he is dysregulating when I am not around... .  gets "mad" at the sheets on the bed (and loudly tells the girl puppy that she did not make him mad, it was the "one who put the sheets like this"... .     ... .  (the dog was laying on HIS sheet and he had to move her) and so he made a BIG production out of it and I stayed away. I was somehow "at fault" for this... .  my imagination just doesn't go THAT far... .  

He got mad that a "bill" was in the car, I had gotten it out of the mailbox and put it above the visor to take in... .  it was received the other day and he "went off" a bit. I am determined to NOT GET THE MAIL... .  let him ask my son to get it and bring it to him... .  he can take MORE responsibility in his bills without me. I "made a mistake" and he seemed to want to dysregulate and I just said "OK".

He FINALLY wrote out his bills yesterday and I just reminded him that I will take them to the P.O. for him if they are ready... .  they weren't the "last time" that he wanted me to help him with this. He partially dysregulated WHILE writing out the bills, so I left the room... .  

Overall, probably a little TOO much time in his presence... .  5 hrs until I had a glass of wine and fell asleep in front of the tv (probably ticked him off... .  the tv "deserves more respect" and I can fall asleep on the last 15 minutes of a movie and NOT care) then I STARTED to watch a favorite program... .  I had again asked him "are you watching Person of Interest tonight"... .  he responded "maybe" but when he was playing his game and "talking to the characters" I got up off the couch and went to watch TV in the bedroom and stayed there... .  no comments... .  came downstairs to check email, etc for 1 hr before going to bed with no problem.

So I had 5 hours of nearly direct contact and about 4 more hours of "just being in the area"... oh, he wanted a snack and I got the items out for him and he stood there... .  I asked him "do you want to make your own snack or are you wanting me to make it for you?" (I was ON MY WAY to bed at the moment and wanted to make it clear that I was willing to "help"

I think that setting a boundary by NOT offering, is helping me "separate" his needs from my needs... .  MY NEEDS say that I am going to bed. His needs may say he would like a snack... .  he is a "big boy" and I don't have to offer to help him with HIS needs anymore than he is empathetic to MY needs SO I ahve found that any offer of help becomes a "PRECEDENT" that is expected again the next time. Each boundary I make, I keep and then the next time, it is more easily accepted.

[GreenMango]

It looks like you are grasping the difference between supporting and enabling.  This is a good thing.  As you detach he has to deal with himself.

These little digs or kicking up dust tantrums are his frustrations.  It sounds like he doesn't like dealing with himself.

Keep doing those healthy things for you.  Pulling put of enmeshment can be difficult but you are doing it. 

[real lady]

It looks like you are grasping the difference between supporting and enabling.  This is a good thing.  As you detach he has to deal with himself.

Yes, I am willing to "support" but am NOT willing to spend any more time or emotional energy to "enable" him any longer.

These little digs or kicking up dust tantrums are his frustrations.  It sounds like he doesn't like dealing with himself.

Yes, and that is VERY sad indeed. Truly he does not like to be left alone, even with his game, he has responsibility of the puppies without me.

Keep doing those healthy things for you.  Pulling put of enmeshment can be difficult but you are doing it. 

Thanks... .  I believe that I have pulled out of enmeshment and he "put up" a good fight but I continued to do it.

***DAY 13 went so far as expected that a 13th day might go... .  rocky. He woke up after complaining last night, accusing me of "pushing" his C-PAP machine and when I said that "I am not aware that I had even touched it" he then proceeded to say that my son must have done it... .  I held my ground and when he said "this isn't worth it"... .  I agreed and said "NO, it isn't worth it"... .  he called that snarky and I called it the truth.

He called me a LIAR and I say "so, I am a liar"... .  he went on for some time saying that I "first DENIED" that I had done it... .  because I don't know how it happened but KNOW that neither my son nor I did anything intentionally; we were not even NEAR his machine and of course, this only reinforced that my son is not allowed in HIS bedroom.

I don't even care that he called me a LIAR... he has BETRAYED me. No matter what "lies" (that he accuses me of that I have not done), NOTHING is WORSE TO ME than the promises that HE HAS BROKEN TO ME and then he continues to "call me a liar"... .  

He seemed a little surprised when I reminded him that "WE ARE LEAVING... .  I am working on it." Then he talked about the puppies and him not being able to work... .  I said "I am willing to talk about it with you but I DO have to get a job and get a car of my own... .  we will see anything beyond that, YOU have told us to leave and I am trying to do that".

ALL of this reminds me that there is NO HOPE for any relationship with him and I am SO ready for a healthy relationship but I am NOT willing to start one any time soon... .  

[real lady]

I've decided that it is time to NO LONGER sleep in his bed... I am setting up a "sitting room" for myself for reading and my computer so I am not in the same room with him for hours. I will fix his meals, clean his house, do his laundry, care for his pets but I will NOT go into HIS bedroom.

I told him that I am concerned about his health and only want the best for him. He called me a liar and I said "we don't have a relationship so it doesn't matter what you think of me... .  I will stay away from your machine and work to LEAVE so you won't have the problem again"... .  

He did not tell me to "get the F out" because he knows now, that I REALLY WANT TO GO... .  very very sad for him.