No more sympathy left for broken women

[TakeFlight]

As many others here with a fixer/rescuer compulsion, our intentions are always noble and true in trying to help the BPD women who first come into or lives appearing miserable and unloved.

Having been with two women who were "broken" and unhappy, the second of which was surely BPD, and both of which were suddenly revealed to be highly manipulative and malicious, is it really to much to say that some women deserve all of the abuse they endure? We all have problems, but when you take them out on those who love you, does the rest of the world really need to sing your sympathies?

Their choices to be malicious are very consciously made, even if their intentions are compulsive. Any others agree that some people just deserve to have bad things happen to them? Or what do the sympathizers say in response to this notion?

[Whatwasthat]

 TakeFlight

I think it's right to be 'sympathetic' to people (not just women by the way!) who are broken, troubled and unhappy. And 'sympathetic' can include offering a friendly ear to allow them to express themselves.

However this doesn't mean that we ought to get deeply involved with their troubles (or indeed with them). Isn't that where the problems start?

[really]

A really good question.  In my case I stood by my ex when things were difficult for her and I thought that's all it was.  I only found out about BPD in the aftermath

I sympathise with the trauma that happened to my ex in childhood although cannot excuse her manipulation lies and cheating.     I can't get to anger about that.    I turn it on myself and question what more i could have done.

I have been deeply damaged by what happened and have asked for understanding from others in my life about how I am at the moment and have been since her departure.    

I have plenty of sympathy for those with BPD who struggle with their disorder who find it hard to seek therapy or change but not those who project all of their own failings on others and who destroy other people's lives.  

I understand depression and feeling a loss of self  (belief) through that.    That has been the consequence for me.   But I don't understand lack of self on a way that damages others.    In many ways both are  consequence of trauma but the difference is that if I hurt someone I know it and try to make amends.   I have been bad tempered but never ever have I taken what someone has given me and trashed it.    

[TakeFlight]

Whatwasthat?: It seems our willingness though to lend a friendly er is never apprecieted for its true value. It is instead taken as a means to "use" the other person. There is no regard for us a human, we are merely tools. Is it really ok to let our compulsion to be kind be the reason others use us? I think for all of us it was this compulsion that kept us coming back for more and more torture. And yes! its not just women of course, but i think I singled out women because our society often awards most relationship sympathy to them. It is no doubt the reason way my ex was so easily able to get away with labeling me as "emotionally abusive" and "controlling" to her friends, even though she told me I was an "angel" to my face. If a man were to say that about his ex I'm sure he would be met with more suspicion.

really: I too only found out about BPD in the after math and I think i would have been a lot less sympathetic during our r/s had I known what I was dealing with. But I agree that the one thing I sympathize with is the childhood trauma, bt it always lead me back to saying "almost everybody experiences childhood trauma!". Only the truly malicious make others pay for it.

In short I think any level of sympathy for those who intentionally hurt others is a problem, particularly for codependents. If we instead approach this from a "zero tolerance" angle, its not that we are being cruel, but that we are letting our self preservation instincts kick in at a more appropriate time, as well as holding these vicious people to a higher standard that they need to adhere too. I'll save my sympathy for those who experience all the same childhood traumas, but battle their mental issues with therapy and medication rather than sadistic outwardly destructive behavior.

[Whatwasthat]

I really understand that feeling of having been 'used'. I had that feeling too. Because I WAS 'used'. And it hurts. My goodness it hurts. I don't dispute that. And I never want to experience anything like it again and am committed to not doing so.

And I do not criticise your evident anger. I was angry too - and it's necessary as part of the process of letting go and moving on.

But I suppose that with time and perspective I see things a bit differently now.

Firstly I do not think my ex 'intended' to 'use' me. So I would not agree any more with these phrases

truly malicious ... .  those who intentionally hurt others ... .  these vicious people

But I want to be clear - this doesn't mean my ex did NOT use me - he clearly did. He simply did not set out to do so and had very little control over his actions. This is one of the big lessons about BPD traits - they are subconscious and persistent - only very well targetted therapy over a substantial period of time can help someone live a life that is not dictated by these inner compulsions. They are not acts of intentional malice - they're an incomplete wiring of the emotional circuitry.

Is it really ok to let our compulsion to be kind be the reason others use us?

No - absolutely not. What I was trying to convey was that we can be sympathetic to people with problems and offer friendly support (and indeed should do so). But that it is our duty to ourselves to be wary and self protective of those who are 'troubled' and 'needy' and that being sympathetic does not mean that we have to get too deeply involved and get  into relationships with them. No-one forces us to do this. It's sometimes our own wish to be the 'knight' or 'knightess'(!) in 'Shining Armour' that causes us to do this.

But I will readily acknowledge that it can be hard to spot someone with BPD traits at first. So there is an awful kind of chance and ill luck involved too. And we often only realise that we've stepped into dangerous territory a little too late to save ourselves from pain. That's a shame - but it doesn't mean that we were intentionally 'trapped' - it simply means that we became too deeply involved too quickly with someone who did not have the capacity to be in a healthy relationship with us.

So you see I am fully with you when it comes to this statement

If we instead approach this from a "zero tolerance" angle, its not that we are being cruel, but that we are letting our self preservation instincts kick in at a more appropriate time... .  

However the 'zero tolerance' for me now would kick in to stop me engaging intimately with someone who was clearly unstable and needy. It would not stop me sitting down and having a chat and a drink with them and sympathising with their problems.

But let me say again. I understand and can easily relate to your anger. Anger  is the correct response to being treated in a way that isn't good for us.

Wishing you well. WWT

[really]

It is no doubt the reason way my ex was so easily able to get away with labeling me as "emotionally abusive" and "controlling" to her friends, even though she told me I was an "angel" to my face. If a man were to say that about his ex I'm sure he would be met with more suspicion.

Can't tell you how many times I was called angel throughout our relationship and then told I was abusive and controlling - and she went running to her friends saying the same thing.    Utter nonsense but all part of the dysfunction.   Can't be seen to be wrong in any way.  Everything and anything is justified

[TakeFlight]

I really understand that feeling of having been 'used'. I had that feeling too. Because I WAS 'used'. And it hurts. My goodness it hurts. I don't dispute that. And I never want to experience anything like it again and am committed to not doing so.

And I do not criticise your evident anger. I was angry too - and it's necessary as part of the process of letting go and moving on.

But I suppose that with time and perspective I see things a bit differently now.

Firstly I do not think my ex 'intended' to 'use' me. So I would not agree any more with these phrases

truly malicious ... .  those who intentionally hurt others ... .  these vicious people

See what I find interesting about this is that my BPDex and I used to talk a lot about our philosophy on people. She once let slip that she saw people as "situational" and that she kept EVERYBODY around (even those who hated her) if she ever "needed them", a sentiment I've heard elsewhere around the internet. Post break up I also FINALLY forced her to admit that she resisted my initial *fair* break up attempts because she wasn't ready to be alone and so she was being *selfish* (in retrospect I now see I got this moment of honesty because I threatened that it was the only way I would ever speak to her again, using her abandonment fears against her). So its not even that she wasn't consciously aware she was doing something that that hurt me, she just didn't give a ___. Again I'm so harsh on them because I've seen many times around the internet that some BPD's are sadists (particularly witches https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61982.0;wap2 ) who enjoy torturing nons and I fear I was with one of them.

Similarly I learned today from a friend that one of the female friends I've been helping through her recent break up and thought FOR SURE was a super sweet girl has actually had quite sadistic behaviour in the past. I dont find her to have BPD traits, though she is a but neurotic, but she seems to exhibit the same over the top insecurity that goes with BPD. Do insecure/needy/vulnerable women really all have this sadistic quality somewhere inside of them? All of the ones I've known, BPD or non, seem to... .  

[Whatwasthat]

Do insecure/needy/vulnerable women really all have this sadistic quality somewhere inside of them? All of the ones I've known, BPD or non, seem to... .  

I see it differently - I would say that needy, insecure and vulnerable people will most likely interact with others in ways dictated by their need, insecurity and vulnerability. And by reading the posts of some of those here who have suffered in relationships with men you will see that need, insecurity and vulnerability (and also BPD and NPD) are equal opportunity employers 

I think it's quite possible to be able to identify this within oneself as a problem - and articulate it - without having the  insight, will and strength to do anything about it. And if someone is suffering from BPD the road to making changes is a long and tough one. 

But it took  me a long time to start to see things this way - and certainly I spent months feeling disbelief and anger. I think that's a vital stage too. I'm not saying you should be ahead of where you are.

One note on the Lawson book - I haven't read it but have read many comments, threads and reviews of it here. Firstly note that it's about parent/child relationships. And clearly a child of a parent suffering from BPD or NPD does not have the kind of equality in the relationship that exists between adults in romantic partnerships. So the obligation to take care of oneself that would exist for the adult does not apply. Also it is often said that these various 'faces' of someone with BPD traits usually alternate within the same individual. This is a helpful Youtube presentation about that www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do6owMR1hSY

Wishing you well. WWT

[turtle]

As many others here with a fixer/rescuer compulsion, our intentions are always noble and true in trying to help the BPD women who first come into or lives appearing miserable and unloved.

Having been with two women who were "broken" and unhappy, the second of which was surely BPD, and both of which were suddenly revealed to be highly manipulative and malicious, is it really to much to say that some women deserve all of the abuse they endure? We all have problems, but when you take them out on those who love you, does the rest of the world really need to sing your sympathies?

Their choices to be malicious are very consciously made, even if their intentions are compulsive. Any others agree that some people just deserve to have bad things happen to them? Or what do the sympathizers say in response to this notion?

Hi takeflight!

I don't feel my crazyx deserves to have bad things happen to him. I used to wish that, but as time has gone on, it's clear to me that his own poor life choices create plenty of negative consequences for him.   He did horrific things to me (yes, BPD men are horrible too,) and my biggest issue with all of that ... .   is that I never should have been around for ANY of it.

So... .  while I am certainly not giving him a pass (he really should be in prison,) I own the fact that way back then (not knowing what I know now,) I had very poor boundaries.  At the very first sign of his poor behavior, I should have removed him from my circle of trust.  Instead, I moved him right into the center... .  and I excused/ignored his small signs of bad behavior.  Then, of course, the behaviors escalated until they were inexcusable.  And the world sings the sympathies for men too.  I know how annoying that is!

Now that I'm on the other side, I have changed so I am not attracted to someone who is so troubled.  That certainly didn't happen overnight, but it happened.  As I got healthier, I became attracted to healthier people.

If someone like crazyx walked into my world today, I would be cordial, pleasant, etc., but that's where it would stop.  That person would NEVER make it into my circle of trust.  It's MY responsibility to keep that circle of trust functioning properly.

When we do this, then we end up not having to be troubled about what they "deserve" or how much sympathy they should get, because people who behave badly just aren't in our circle of trust - and if by some chance they do get into that circle - our boundaries are such that we remove them immediately!



turtle