can BPD also have narcissistic traits?

[benny2]

Just wondering if someone with BPD can also have narissistic traits? My ex has all the traits of BPD but he also has some traits of the narissistic traits. He is never satified with anything he has, relationship or material wise, and wants the best. For example, he bought a home a year and a half ago, he already wants to sell it because its not good enough and its a nice home with 29 acres of land. He also seeks women with money and WILL use them to get want he wants. He does not however think highly of himself, he has very low self esteem, thinks hes ugly, and hes very attractive, also mentions at times how he hates himself. I told him if I did the things you do to people I would hate myself too.

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[Foreverhopefull]

Sometimes, they don't just have BPD.

For example, my husband is not only BPD, but has Dysthymia too.

So having Narcissistic traits is very much possible.

[hithere]

also mentions at times how he hates himself

I think when BPD's have moments of clarity they all feel like this.

I think they can have BPD with traits of NPD, I think my ex did.  She also had ADD

[Surnia]

diane

This link could be interesting for you: DIFFERENCES|COMORBIDITY: Borderline and Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

[benny2]

yeah guess he has both wow, he fits that discription too. So he must BPD with narcissistic traits. A real load of dynamite. Gives me even more instintive to stay awasy.

[tundraphile]

Perhaps a better question would be "can a person have BPD and not display some narcissistic traits"?

In my observation, BPD & NPD are sides of the same coin.  Both are the result of real or perceived neglect and abandonment early in life.  One says in effect "everyone will leave me eventually, so I must prevent that from ever happenning", while one says "I am the only one that matters and can only rely on myself and use others for my purposes while they stick around."

Both are immature thought patterns lacking empathy but not mutually exclusive.  So it is not surprising that a person leaning toward the BPD thought pattern also in some ways thinks narcissistic thoughts sometimes, and the opposite as well.

My guess is most people actually diagnosed with either BPD or NPD show traits of the other disorder too.  In reality the whole Cluster B set of personality disorders are a spectrum of traits, with many traits shown in people representative of all of the sub-types.

For my uBPDw, I am pretty sure it is BPD first and foremost with a healthy dose of narcissist too.  But I prefer to think of it as a general Cluster B situation than specifically labelling.  It doesn't really matter in the end, it is their behavior you are dealing with on a daily basis.

[yeeter]

One of the T's we saw described my wife as high NPD traits, with BPD tendencies that come out when she is stressed.

uNPD/uBPD

I don't think it's all that uncommon to have a couple things going on together.

But the tools here still work.  And you might add to your reading 'loving the self absorbed' by Nina Brown

I think the combination makes T an impossibility.

[waverider]

My partner is BPD and her brother is obviously NPD. I see the same personality traits in both. It is the application that is different, my partner is low functioning and self destructive, and all the manipulating, twisting and aggressive behavior is aimed at aviodance of responsibility, not pulling her weight and otherwise making excuses to "cop out". On the other hand her brother is high functioning workaholic who twists manipulates with the sole purposes of having the most, biggest status, most dollars etc.

To the casual observer they are chalk and cheese, but I see the same methods, the same BS techniques, its just the goals that are different

[shatra]

Hi

  According to clinicians, all pwBPD have at least some narcissism, and all narcissists have some BPD traits.

Shatra

[martillo]

I agree w Tundraphile about Cluster B personality disorders sharing and moving along a spectrum - my uBPDh (w narcissistic and anti-social tendencies and active alcohol abuse) is always seeking something new and bigger and better and when he gets it (new friend, new employee, new vehicle, new lawn equipment, new water toy, new pet), he acts like it is the end all and be all and all his problems will be solved and he can finally be settled and happy - until the next new thing comes along (with varying time in between)

I used to try to tell him that no person, place or thing is a source of peace or happiness, that it comes from within - I finally realized that he just wasn't ever going to grasp that so now when he is in hot pursuit of "Next Great Thing" I try to evaluate whether it is something we can afford or if it is something I am willing to take care of once the new wears off.  If my answer to myself is yes, he moves forward w no discussion from me; if my answer to myself is maybe not, I try to engage him in conversations about why it might not be a great move and what might be a better plan and if my answer to myself is no, I choose those as my "battles."  Sometimes it works and sometimes, not so much.  He is notorious for coming home w "surprises" and he can justify a wood burning stove in h*ll!

If it is something I am not particularly interested in and he is insistent on moving forward, I make it very clear that it is for him and not to get his feelings hurt (yea, right!) if I choose not to participate - example - his brother (who has very much the same personality type) was buying a new motorcycle and wanted H to get one also, and lo and behold, the motorcycles were on sale and such a great deal and... .  I said "we don't need to spend the money and I will not ride it w you, so do not purchase the motorcycle w the intent that I will be going on long rides in the countryside with you."  H bought motorcycle, along w his brother; I made sure the monthly bill was paid; and we sold it 4 years later w 300 miles on the odometer.  On to the "Next Great Thing... .  !"

[waverider]

Obsessiveness and a sense of entitlement seem to be the most common traits. At one end of the scale a knee jerk defensiveness application, at the other more about dominating and controlling.

NPD seem more capable of longer term planning and proactive, whereas BPD are more often short term and reactive

[coffee shop]

When I started on this site I thought my x was NPD but once I described him to this site several people suggested he also had BPD traits. I can recoginze both in him.

[WifeNeedsSupport]

my H has traits from both to be sure. and my therapist said that it sounds that way too from what he's heard me describe (H doesn't go!). as yeeter wrote, my therapist cautions me that when the np traits are present enough, it prevents the person from getting help the way someone w/ plain BPD could... because it would implicate them as flawed, faulty, wrong in some way. they can't be wrong! it shatters their whole built-up make believe sense of self. my H has BPD (w/NPD traits), plus anti-social tendencies, plussevere anxiety, plusdepression, plussubstance abuse (alcohol and pot), and probably more things going on that i'm not listing. what is my experience? roller coaster. walking on eggshells... .  random unexpected raging anger. he blames me for triggering him.  there aren't enough rules i could follow in the world to avoid triggering him.  everything i do has some fault that needs to be pointed out... .  dr. jeckl and mr. hyde-- everyone else he encounters (just about... unless someone hits his ego) thinks he is so pleasant and upstanding. i get the worst. manipulative and controlling. right- why even bother trying? well, i do love the good side of him, and mostly because we have 3 little kids. trying to figure out whether there is hope for any kind of treatment (including tools on this website... i'm new) that would apply to a case like mine... .  let me know folks if you have any good ideas about this... .  i will give a look at the links on this site though.

[waverider]

my H has traits from both to be sure. and my therapist said that it sounds that way too from what he's heard me describe (H doesn't go!). as yeeter wrote, my therapist cautions me that when the np traits are present enough, it prevents the person from getting help the way someone w/ plain BPD could... because it would implicate them as flawed, faulty, wrong in some way. they can't be wrong! it shatters their whole built-up make believe sense of self. my H has BPD (w/NPD traits), plus anti-social tendencies, plussevere anxiety, plusdepression, plussubstance abuse (alcohol and pot), and probably more things going on that i'm not listing. what is my experience? roller coaster. walking on eggshells... .  random unexpected raging anger. he blames me for triggering him.  there aren't enough rules i could follow in the world to avoid triggering him.  everything i do has some fault that needs to be pointed out... .  dr. jeckl and mr. hyde-- everyone else he encounters (just about... unless someone hits his ego) thinks he is so pleasant and upstanding. i get the worst. manipulative and controlling. right- why even bother trying? well, i do love the good side of him, and mostly because we have 3 little kids. trying to figure out whether there is hope for any kind of treatment (including tools on this website... i'm new) that would apply to a case like mine... .  let me know folks if you have any good ideas about this... .  i will give a look at the links on this site though.

You wont be able to avoid triggering until you have been here a while and truly absorbed a lot of the information, reading it, and understanding it is one thing but effectively practicing it AND getting over the backlash behavior from him as you change takes time. It is not easy but you can simplify your lot.

Two things can happen, firstly you will learn to stop making it worse, but you still cant fix it. Secondly you will learn how to not take it as personally and allow a lot of it to wash.

It will be a lot easier to reevaluate your relationship more subjective, whether you stay or go will come from a better understanding. But it is a slow and hard road, there are no quick fixes unfortunately

[almost789]

Yes, ive also read that all BPDs have narcisistic traits. Usually, more prevalant in the men than the women. Mine definitly has narcisstic traits and I first thought he was a narcissist before i was led here because he didnt have the main characteristic of grandiosity or complete lack empathy.

[yeeter]

(including tools on this website... i'm new) that would apply to a case like mine... .  let me know folks if you have any good ideas about this... .  i will give a look at the links on this site though.

Hi wife,

Read.  Post.  Read some more.  Practice

The tools work on both types.    Even on interactions with normal people.  So worth the time To learn.  (with starts on focusing on what you can control... .  Yourself)

[WifeNeedsSupport]

very interesting. thanks for the advice waverider and yeeter.

yes, i am learning now about what it will take if i want to make this work. i will definitely be looking at how to implement my limits in an effective way... .  i have been telling him what is not acceptable for me over and over in the last 6months since i basically cracked and said i can't take this anymore, but those communications are lost on him. it just keeps happening. and when i red flag him that he's doing it again, he just carries on... .  

as for focusing on me... .  i have been going to therapy and have been working on creating my own outlets of happy, so that helps. he calls it a "midlife crisis." trust me, nothing wild i'm doing... .  just trying to break out of the regular misery. and i'm planning to go back to school and then work again (after being a stay at home mom) to dissipate some of my codependency once all kids are in school... found a very flexible program. he says i'm abandoning the family.

i guess i need to just readjust how i handle his outbreaks, not letting any of his words or manipulations get to me. trying to reassure him while he is trying to break me down. i need to assert myself better and set up conditions in which his participation is encouraged but not required in doing things that will benefit me or my goals in life.  it's sad that i know with his NPD traits, he will never really take any joy in my successes, but at least now i understand more about why he's that way. i'll just take what little bits of goodness he can offer of himself and ignore/forgive all his negativity.  doesn't sound really so appealing... .  does anyone else feel like they really got the short end of the stick here? like it's unfair? i'm in shock to realize that if i stay with him, it will always be a case of the short stick... .  always. that's going to take serious effort to fend off the resentment. i guess i figured he'd come around after years and years to do more and care more about me, but it's not going to happen. he talks the talk when he needs to make me feel like it's there, but there are lots of times he's bailed or just not shown any motivation toward those ends.

so, here i am, putting forth a lot of effort and a lot of forgiveness and i have to be his "emotional caretaker" as i am with our kids (and then i have extra work with the kids b/c he is such a poor role model of what i'm trying to instill in them), and he has no obligations? i think if this disability were physical, it would be easier for me to digest. maybe i should just picture it that way.

but about holding onto the love... .  with the NPD traits, it's even harder to believe in the love that he claims to have for me between times that he claims to hate me. he manipulates so well, that i don't know what to believe... .  how do you know which words that they say really count for anything (with either BPD or NPD)? i'm really considering just trying to withdraw from him emotionally altogether, but keep a friendship and a parenting relationship.  very hard to parent w/ someone who is BPD (w/NPD traits) by the way! 

as for the same-house separation, business-like friendship agreement... on one hand, the NPD stuff would shine and he'd be so pleased to be more independent and in control of his life without commitment to me and have me at a distance, but on the other hand, he wouldn't have my 100% commitment which he'd be freaking out about (abandonment)... .  he'd probably demonize me and we couldn't have that nice relationship after all. it would be very all or nothing i think.

maybe i ought to take a stab at waverider's advice and see if i can actually work out better ways to not trigger him. as for rearranging some of the balance in how things are done, i expect lots of backlash. it's already begun as he calls it my midlife crisis.  the anxiety part is huge too... .  and it's hard to find a way to get my voice heard of how i like to do things when he is so anxious about having things his way... .  like the world will fall apart if we do it my way. especially with the kids, where we can't do things separately-- his way for him, my way for me, very easily. most of the time, i feel backed into doing it all his way just because i can compromise and he can't or he'll worry himself to death. what about that one?

ok, last question at the moment... .  i am sure that my H has both BPD and NPD. is it worth trying to tell him that i have discovered this? in rare moments of feeling really secure and safe discussing himself with me, he has owned up to some of what i observe. would it help if i asked him to read up on these conditions? i know he wouldn't want to hear anything about it and would be angry at me for suggesting any of it, etc., but would it at all help in the long run if he knew that i see it that way? that i am going to treat him based on this knowledge? does telling someone who isn't self-aware help at all?

[Rockylove]

I don't know that it's a great idea to tell him what you suspect is his issue.  I've discussed behaviors that I find troubling with my bf (undiagnosed) on several occasions when he's seemed to be in a receptive mood, but I believe that labeling him would cause more harm than good.  He doesn't have a good sense of self and that would give him more reason for self loathing. 

Perhaps others could offer more words of wisdom on this~~I only know what works for my situation and that is to ease tidbits into conversation when he's in a receptive mood and he inevitably tell me a story from his past that most often confirms what I suspect (I'm not a qualified BPD therapist) 

[yeeter]

Hi wife.  Do a search here about telling someone they hav BPD (occasionally someone will listen and get help)

In general, it doesn't go well.  I think the NPD side makes it even harder.

Often times it seems to make things worse (a lack of trust, or they turn it back around onmyourself)

This is one of those areas where you will have to weigh the likelihood based on your individual situation.  But a LOT written here sharing experiences so definitely read up.

[almost789]

Hi wife, its not recommended you tell them. Its best you somehow find a way to convince him to get to therapy and let the therapist deal with it. Just from my experiences and others experiences, in very few situations it works out where they are happy to know a name for it, which also provides a direction for them as far as treatment goes. But, i think this is rare and might be less harmful to higher functioning pwBPD. I kind of told mine indirectly by providing him some literature on the subject and giving it to him. This after i had been hinting little by little and trying to gauge his reactions. I had recommended a few books which he seemed to be pleased about. So, in my case it didnt seem to harm him all that much but hes high functioning and i also suspect he already either knew or had been diagnosed previously and it was more about me figuring it out. What drove mine away was not the diagnosis but confronting him later with his projection. And telling him he needed to take responsibility for himself. Of course i fully expect hell be back.

[Randi Kreger]

Hi  According to clinicians, all pwBPD have at least some narcissism, and all narcissists have some BPD traits.Shatra

I would have to disagree with this from my research for my new book. I studied NPD intensely because it is about people who have both BPD and NPD traits.There is a comorbidity factor (cooccuring disorders) in about 35% of the BPD (w/NPD traits) population, meaning that about a third of people with BPD have NPD traits and vice versa (I am rounding here). And what do you know; people with BPD who have NPD traits are extremely resistent to therapy. Now, there are two kinds of NPD, just like we find 2 kinds of BPD in the real world (no official research agrees on types of BPD). One is the VULNERABLE NPD, who may say things like your husband does. I would need to know a lot more before I ventured a guess about whether he has both or whether he is the vulnerable NP. But basically, they have very low esteem and NPD is kind of an unconscious mask.Then there is the INvulnerable, or grandiose NP, who has high self esteem and was probably spoiled as a child.My dad had NPD. I lived with this a long time. Mom, BPD. These two types get together a lot.The upshot is: read a lot more about NPD. These people DO NOT CHANGE.

[sm15000]

There is a comorbidity factor (cooccuring disorders) in about 35% of the BPD (w/NPD traits) population, meaning that about a third of people with BPD have NPD traits and vice versa (I am rounding here). And what do you know; people with BPD who have NPD traits are extremely resistent to therapy.

Now, there are two kinds of NPD, just like we find 2 kinds of BPD in the real world (no official research agrees on types of BPD). One is the VULNERABLE NPD, who may say things like your husband does. I would need to know a lot more before I ventured a guess about whether he has both or whether he is the vulnerable NP. But basically, they have very low esteem and NPD is kind of an unconscious mask.

Then there is the INvulnerable, or grandiose NP, who has high self esteem and was probably spoiled as a child.

Hi Diane,

I also saw a mix in my ex of BPD (w/NPD traits) traits.  He was a HF individual so with that and the fact that we never lived together (over 13 years) he kept his issues very well hidden.

I could see an aspect of cerebral narcissism in him and I would guess this was part of the mask to hide his insecurities - he could be very arrogant with his knowledge with certain people.  His narcissism was also contextual - it wasn't consistently there.  It came out at its fullest when he perceived or was being challenged, and especially at the end when I was challenging him about infidelity.  E.g. he would come out with things like "who are you to make the rules in our relationship"

He needed attention (not always sexual but usually led to that) from the opposite sex.  When I think he perceived possible abandonment he put (multiple) people in place.

Also, the more he thought he had 'got away' with certain things, the more pleased with himself he was.  I think he is very aware of how he can be; in hindsight, I have a feeling he may have been diagnosed or to a professional in the past but he has never said directly - I think he despises the idea and derides all that. . .as Randi said this combination makes for serious resistance that it is them.

Good Luck   

[shatra]

Hi---

Randi Kreger wrote---

I would have to disagree with this from my research for my new book. I studied NPD intensely because it is about people who have both BPD and NPD traits.There is a comorbidity factor (cooccuring disorders) in about 35% of the BPD (w/NPD traits) population, meaning that about a third of people with BPD have NPD traits and vice versa (I am rounding here). And what do you know; people with BPD who have NPD traits are extremely resistent to therapy.

  Now, there are two kinds of NPD, just like we find 2 kinds of BPD in the real world (no official research agrees on types of BPD). One is the VULNERABLE NPD, who may say things like your husband does. I would need to know a lot more before I ventured a guess about whether he has both or whether he is the vulnerable NP. But basically, they have very low esteem and NPD is kind of an unconscious mask.Then there is the INvulnerable, or grandiose NP, who has high self esteem and was probably spoiled as a child.My dad had NPD. I lived with this a long time. Mom, BPD. These two types get together a lot.

------I will be interested to read your new research. According to Otto Kernberg's work, all narcissists have some BPD traits, and vice-versa. I have found this to be so as well.  He classifies narcissism into adult, infantile, and pathological narcissism.

  I agree with you that pwBPD often get together with pwNPD. There have been some celebrity couples with this combination. I am starting a new thread

on this topic.

Have a nice day

Shatra

[yeeter]

The question might be to what degree.

Narcissism, in some amount, is healthy for self esteem and valuing ones own person (maybe this isnt the right context of the use of the word?)

And BPD traits - to some degree - are present in all of us.  After all, we are human and are emotional creatures.

So by definition they should both be present in everyone.  Now, to what degree does it get to before its a 'problem'.  And to what degree does it need to be present before its classified a 'disorder'



(and maybe more importantly, to what degree does it need to be clarified before we can work on ourselves and our own actions in dealing with the person - whether a clinically diagnosed or not)  Im all about the practical - yes its useful to label to the degree you can get started in a direction that has a higher likelihood of making a difference.  But past that, its pretty individualistic and what works has to be learned/adapted for the two very specific individuals involved.