They will never "get theirs"...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Some food for thought here... .  

Over the past month or so since my ex (quiet borderline) abruptly ended our relationship and completely cut me out of her life in every way shape and form in an attempt to make sense of what happend I began doing my own research about her personally. I contacted people she knew and several ex's to find out what their experiance was with her. Needless to say they all shared the same story. It was at the same time shocking, and not. What surprised and without a doubt hurt me the most though was realizing how much she actually lied to me. Lie after lie after lie... .  as I dug deeper it became clear that pretty much the whole relationship itself was one big lie. Her whole life... .  one big lie. Looking back, I think the only thing she didn't lie about was her name and her age. Although our relationship was short (4 months) it was the extremely intense "soulmate gonna marry you and spent the rest of our lives together" type. Realizing that I shared a bed, a home, her kids etc etc with someone who was lieing to me about damn near everything struck me hard.

Here's what I find myself having the biggest issue with. This woman is 37 and has clearly been living her life like this all of her adult life. As in most cases she is incredibly attractive, a true knock out. Because of that, there will always be and endless never ending line of men waiting for her to emotionally use at her will. Karma will never pay her a visit and she will never "get hers". Never will she have to pay the price or face herself for the devastation and broken hearts she's left in her wake. The ability to cut men out of her life and move on to the next one will always be an option for her. That coupled with the fact that she sees absolutely NOTHING wrong with her or her actions and lacks any form of emapthy what so ever means she will continue living happily ever after with the choice of any man she wants. I know a lot of people say these types of people aren't happy inside but I beg to differ. I never saw any sign on this - she was completely un emotional in general... .  could simply care less. Even if a guy did actually leave her, she wouldn't care. It wouldn't force her to look at herself or address anything... .  there'd be 10 others men waiting on her doorstep to fill her "void".

I sure wish this wasn't the case. I wish there was a way for karma to pay them a visit. I wish they could have their hearts broken and shattered like they did to ours. But wait... .  one would have to have feelings for that to happen wouldn't they?

[Dave44]

Some food for thought here... .  

Over the past month or so since my ex (quiet borderline) abruptly ended our relationship and completely cut me out of her life in every way shape and form in an attempt to make sense of what happend I began doing my own research about her personally. I contacted people she knew and several ex's to find out what their experiance was with her. Needless to say they all shared the same story. It was at the same time shocking, and not. What surprised and without a doubt hurt me the most though was realizing how much she actually lied to me. Lie after lie after lie... .  as I dug deeper it became clear that pretty much the whole relationship itself was one big lie. Her whole life... .  one big lie. Looking back, I think the only thing she didn't lie about was her name and her age. Although our relationship was short (4 months) it was the extremely intense "soulmate gonna marry you and spent the rest of our lives together" type. Realizing that I shared a bed, a home, her kids etc etc with someone who was lieing to me about damn near everything struck me hard.

Here's what I find myself having the biggest issue with. This woman is 37 and has clearly been living her life like this all of her adult life. As in most cases she is incredibly attractive, a true knock out. Because of that, there will always be and endless never ending line of men waiting for her to emotionally use at her will. Karma will never pay her a visit and she will never "get hers". Never will she have to pay the price or face herself for the devastation and broken hearts she's left in her wake. The ability to cut men out of her life and move on to the next one will always be an option for her. That coupled with the fact that she sees absolutely NOTHING wrong with her or her actions and lacks any form of emapthy what so ever means she will continue living happily ever after with the choice of any man she wants. I know a lot of people say these types of people aren't happy inside but I beg to differ. I never saw any sign on this - she was completely un emotional in general... .  could simply care less. Even if a guy did actually leave her, she wouldn't care. It wouldn't force her to look at herself or address anything... .  there'd be 10 others men waiting on her doorstep to fill her "void".

I sure wish this wasn't the case. I wish there was a way for karma to pay them a visit. I wish they could have their hearts broken and shattered like they did to ours. But wait... .  one would have to have feelings for that to happen wouldn't they?

[myself]

I have to say, wishing bad karma on someone else doesn't seem as if it will attract good karma towards yourself. Her whole life is a 'lie', you said. How is that 'living happily ever after'? I understand you being hurt and upset, but focusing on your own positives now will be better for you (and this is about You, afterall) than hoping something negative happens to her. It's up to you, but, in my case, I wish my ex all the best, and am helping make it happen for myself. Maybe working off some old bad karma of my own.

[GustheDog]

Hi Dave,

You'll probably receive some replies suggesting that you avoid having vindictive thoughts, focus on yourself, stop worrying about her, and get on with detaching.  I won't be among them.

You'll get beyond the anger when you're ready, and, if you're anything like me you blamed yourself for everything in the immediate aftermath, felt like a rotten shell of a man, and were convinced that you're such a worthless human that you don't deserve the air in your lungs.  That's how I felt.  Then I found this site and started researching BPD.  That's when I realized what really occurred - I was lied to, used, manipulated, discarded, etc. - the same as the rest of us - and my ex does not have a second thought about how I feel, what she did/has done before/will continue to do.  In her mind, she's the victim. 

I've never felt such rage in my life.  I'm only 27, and I'm physically fit and healthy, but my blood pressure over the last few months has been sky-high.  And as long as you don't do anything destructive, to yourself or others, I think the anger and thoughts of retribution are fine.  I actually had a number of little fantasies of seeing my ex encounter terrible misfortunes.  I think this is understandable, and human.

I also see why you think she'll escape a terrible fate, but, to be honest, I don't think that's true.  BPDs repress things - pretty much everything negative gets either repressed or projected onto others.  They therefore never actually *resolve* any bad feelings they've had in their lives.  Rather, by running away from their problems, those repressions/projections accumulate.  Her own mind is in fact a torture chamber that cruelly punishes her everyday.  And each time she does something else that is bad or hurtful to others (which is pretty frequently, I would guess), her internal misery gets incrementally more severe.

She's 37, so fast-approaching middle-age, clearly with tons of baggage, and no successful relationships.  She can use her looks, for now, to manipulate others into giving her what she wants.  She can easily discard and find an upgrade when it suits her - for now.  This has likely been her MO her entire life.  But, trust me, it won't be that way forever - it can't.  With every passing year she's going to look more and more like the damaged goods she really is.  In another decade, and beyond, her good looks are going to start fading.  And, indeed, with all the inner turmoil she carries around with her, she may well not age nearly as gracefully as you would think, regardless of how great she might look today.

Put it this way: Unless she undertakes the self-work and molds herself into a person of integrity soon, the latter half of her life is going to be a pretty undesirable experience.  She clearly can't have a sustainable relationship, so a lasting marriage is probably off the table.  And she likely doesn't have any true, quality friendships either.  As I see it, unless these people have some "aha" moment and better themselves, they're going to grow old and even more miserable alone, and without any support network.  So, as I see it, it will catch up to them, unless they change.

From 2010:

"[M]ost Borderlines suffer from PTSD. The break-up of a relationship is a repetitious compulsion that they re-live in order to emerge victorious over their captors. If this is never accomplished, they can waste tremendous energy on blame. Borderlines who dont learn responsibility can remain detached, and go into Schizoid mode as they grow older. The PTSD that they've suffered is now debilitating and very frightening and they dont want to chance another encounter with a powerful host. They remain single and alone and usually become hermit like and imprisoned in their own minds socially."

[trouble11]

Hey Dave,  Thanks for having the courage to say what many feel.  I'd love to say I wish mine the best, but it doesn't ring true.  When he's doing "well" peoples lives are getting ripped apart. I don't want him hit by a bus, but I'd like to see his reign come to an end.  Unfortunately, he's in law enforcement so when he hops on a dating site it take him less than two days to find a new victim.  He's not particularly attractive, but the cop thing seems to do it for him.  I feel bad for the new girl.  I know she thinks the love she's been  waiting for has finally arrived.  I know what Gus said is true.  I know he is often is a great deal of pain and has already shown hermit type behavior, but like you, I think too much of the time they are happy. 

[almost789]

True Dave, there will be an unlimitted number of men waiting to be used by her if shes a knockout. But Gusthedog is absolutely right. If all she has is exterior beauty , what do you think is going to happen to her when the beauty fades, and very likely soon. Shes not a movie starr. Not many women maintain knockout status into middle age. I think they do have alot of pain, but they cover it up. Its going to hit her like a ton of bricks one day, that shes treated everyone so bad and has no one to love her. Also, the knockout ideation , you dont think some of that is coming from her idealization of you do you?

[FollowingBliss]

Its going to hit her like a ton of bricks one day, that shes treated everyone so bad and has no one to love her.

I was under the impression they lack insight into their behavior?  Always the victim, right?  Wouldn't that translate into "I am alone because everyone leaves me."  My ex husband never took responsibility for his behavior.

[almost789]

Yes but thats a defense. Deep inside theyre filled with shame. Their not happy, they pay everyday. Dave, you said yourself you never saw a true happiness in her face.

[waitaminute]

Dave,

Karma is term from some Eastern philosophy. But it has equivalence with similar concepts in Western culture and religion. When there is this kind of consistency between completely separate cultures and religions, it's a pretty good sign that it's real, unavoidable, and backed by some universal energy that man or woman  cannot escape.

But we didn't write the book on Karma. It's not like it's the code of justice in New York or London or Tehran. So how does Karma work in these cases? Or maybe it already worked and you and I just got "ours" for some actions of our own at a previous time. I mean... .  You never broke a good girl's heart before did you?

But that possibility aside, I agree with Gusthedog... .  Every passing year there will be fewer and fewer men lining up to fill the void. Or at least... .  Fewer and fewer men that she considers desirable. If karma owes her something, she will get paid.

[Newton]

Dave44 I appreciate your frustration at the apparent injustice of how pwBPD seem to evade consequences for their behaviour.

I think a large proportion of our frustration and anger lies with us... .  we have a desire for them to be something they are not and cannot be.  The shock of discovering that we were duped by mirroring... .  the realization and sense of loss that we can't return to the idealization phase... .  these are big hurdles to get over in our healing.

If we accept that they are suffering from a very severe mental illness with little executive control over their triggered emotions then we also need to accept their lack of culpability.  That doesn't mean their behaviour isn't destructive, hurtful and damaging to us... .  it is, beyond doubt.  Understanding that this is who they are... .  and having the emotional maturity to get the hell out of the way is our key to happiness.

They are living a miserable existence, they didn't ask for this condition and if untreated they suffer as a result of a history and a future of broken relationships, self harm, substance abuse and internal conflict.  

If we truly love/loved them as we say we do then pity is the emotion that would best serve us... .  that takes away their power... .  we only fear their behaviour if we emotionally invest in them and expect something in return that they are not capable of giving.

[benny2]

I honestly prayed that he would get paid back for what he did to me, and then I  thought about it and how he lives everyday of his life in mass confusion, constantly changing his plans, unrealistic ones at that, the anger he holds inside, the guilt that he has to live with from what he has done to others, the man hates himself, the fear of being alone, the fact that he will never really know how to love. Thats punishment enough for me. I told him he is his own worst enemy.

[trouble11]

   Just read my post from last night.  Angry much?  I do feel bad for him and I know he will never have real joy in his life.  He has told me he feels like his life in non-existent and/or disconnected and that he feels like he just goes through the motions.  Grinds through one day after the other.  He has no real plans or hope for the future.  He's been out of our state 5 times in his 49 years.  The only thing he enjoys is golf.  It is truly sad.  I will stick with my statement that when he's doing well people are getting hurt or about to get hurt.  That bothers me.

[GustheDog]

Dave44 I appreciate your frustration at the apparent injustice of how pwBPD seem to evade consequences for their behaviour.

I think a large proportion of our frustration and anger lies with us... .  we have a desire for them to be something they are not and cannot be.  The shock of discovering that we were duped by mirroring... .  the realization and sense of loss that we can't return to the idealization phase... .  these are big hurdles to get over in our healing.

If we accept that they are suffering from a very severe mental illness with little executive control over their triggered emotions then we also need to accept their lack of culpability.  That doesn't mean their behaviour isn't destructive, hurtful and damaging to us... .  it is, beyond doubt.  Understanding that this is who they are... .  and having the emotional maturity to get the hell out of the way is our key to happiness.

They are living a miserable existence, they didn't ask for this condition and if untreated they suffer as a result of a history and a future of broken relationships, self harm, substance abuse and internal conflict.  

If we truly love/loved them as we say we do then pity is the emotion that would best serve us... .  that takes away their power.... .  we only fear their behaviour if we emotionally invest in them and expect something in return that they are not capable of giving.

I'm with you 90% of the way here.  But I don't believe that they are without any culpability in their actions.  

For example, my ex *knew* that she has a tendency to dysregulate and split people black.  Regardless of whether she is aware that she has a disorder called "BPD," she knows that this kind of "thing" happens when she gets involved with people.  After the same pattern has repeated a certain number of times, and she is clearly smart enough to look around and see that the same patterns aren't happening in "normal" people's relationships, I believe there's a certain culpability in continuing with business as usual at this point.

There is a case that is often read by law students that illustrates the standard for adjudging the culpability of the accused where such person may suffer from mental illness.  Normally, "to establish a defense on the ground of insanity, it must be clearly proved that, at the time of the committing of the act, the party accused was laboring under such a defect of reason, from disease of mind, and not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing; or if he did know it, that he did not know he was doing what was wrong."  Regina v. M'Naghten, 1843 10 C & F 200.  This remains the majority rule in the U.S. today.

If my ex, or Dave's ex (or anyone else's), was 20 years old and ours was their very first intimate relationship, I certainly would agree that they would be blameless in the outcome - they had no reason to know that their disordered beliefs would overcome them and tear through the life of their partner.  In other words, they would not know "the nature and quality" or their acts, or that they were "doing what was wrong."

But after living this experience a certain number of times, and knowing that BPDs often do have their rational minds, can we really continue to let them off the hook so easily?  We might say that they were "predisposed" to causing certain harmful outcomes in certain situations.  And, if we can establish this much, we may find we need to rethink our culpability analysis.

In Breunig v. American Fam. Ins. Co.,173 N.W.2d 619 (1970), involving injuries sustained in a car accident, the defendant "was subject at the time of the accident to an insane delusion which directly affected her ability to operate her car in an ordinarily prudent manner and caused the accident."  Id.  "The specific question considered [in the case] . . . was whether she had such foreknowledge of her susceptibility to such a mental aberration, delusion or hallucination as to make her negligent in driving a car at all under such conditions."  Id.

The Breunig court ultimately held that, "since these mental aberrations were not constant, the jury could infer [that the defendant] had knowledge of her condition and the likelihood of a hallucination just as one who has knowledge of a heart condition knows the possibility of an attack."  Id.  Proof that the defendant was aware of her predisposition to such disordered thinking, therefore, would result in her liability (i.e., negate her insanity defense).  

I realize that morality is often relative and this is not a court of law.  But I am nevertheless compelled to believe that our collective Western formulation of morality and personal responsibility is more or less adequately articulated by the policies expressed in our penal codes.  And I just happen to agree with this result.

[benny2]

Yes I agree, it is sad knowing others will be going through this also. Now I know why his ex wife tried to end her life, but whats even sicker is, she is willing to go through it again with him.

[really]

Maybe one day in the distant future they will have some form of self realisation and understand the damage and destruction they have caused.

Perhaps not, but at the end of the day I would not like to be like them.  I am hurt, utterly depressed, shake one year out, but still I would not want to be them.

I have real friendships, I can speak openly and honestly with my family, my friends and my partner, I can feel empathy, I know when I've hurt someone.  How sad must it be not to have that... .  to be hollow.

That's about the only thing that gets me through the day... .  thinking that the only thing that could be worse than my pain would to be them.

[RedRightAnkle]

Dave, how many relationships have you been in during your lifetime? Surely not every single one ended amicably or ended with you dumping her? Why is it NOW that this person is such a focus of hatred for you? Let it go. It was four months - yes, she lied, yes, maybe she doesn't care (which is more narcissistic thinking in my mind, not borderline) - but you got out while you still could! And how dare you generalize a whole group of people with these disorders as "pieces of garbage"? Is EVERY person with a mental illness that finds difficulty in retaining relationships with people garbage? You are talking about an entire GROUP of people like they are animals because you were scorned by ONE WOMAN, who MAY OR MAY NOT even HAVE BPD. Yes, you can be angry. Yes, you can be hurt. But to say this about your fellow human beings is cruel and uncalled for.

Let. It. Go. Let her go, let this situation go, and leave her alone. You'll be happier that way and you can avoid all this hatred that you are harboring for a disorder that has no right to be hated.

[BentNotBroken]

Dave-

I understand right where you are at. I was there myself about a year ago. You can click on my name and review my posts to see where I was at when I got here.

BPDs do "get theirs" EVERY SINGLE DAY! And what makes it all the sweeter to those of us who are non-BPD and no longer in a relationship with one, is that they will continue to "get theirs" for many, many years until they get proper treatment/therapy or they die. BPDs are extremely treatment resistant, probably because they are unable to accept responsibility for their actions.

BPD's attempt and commit suicide at rates several times higher than the general population. Why? Because they are miserable, despite having a facade of happiness, beauty, and the like.

I think my BPDex may be a co-morbid sociopath, based on the behavior I have observed over the last seventeen years. She is frequently miserable. She frequently makes those around & close to her miserable. Her internal life is filled with pain and fear constantly. She is over 40 and her looks are fading fast. She constantly struggles with her weight due to impulsive eating. I often think the world would be a better place if she would just take herself out, but then I think of the hell she lives in everyday. As long as she is away from our son and me, I hope she lives a very long time. Chances are good she will suffer for another 50 years as her grandmother lived into her 90s. Her grandmother was one of the most miserable old ladies I have ever met. Basically living alone in a room and no one could really stand to be around her. That is where my BPDexgf is headed.

Alone in a room, with no one in her life. Self-imposed solitary confinement. A perfect end for someone that is so selfish and destructive.

You got out with only minor wounds. I lost over 15 years of my life, my health, my friends, my personal & professional reputation, hundreds of thousands in financial damage, and now I am locked in a custody battle for my less than 2yo son. She is holding a child hostage, and using him as a pawn to further hurt me.

Find out where the weaknesses are in yourself that left you vulnerable. Talk to a therapist. Rebuild yourself and your life. Let the whirling dervish whirl. She will punish herself, guaranteed.

[Newton]

Knowledge that you have a propensity to dysregulate and act out in socially unacceptable ways when triggered doesn't prevent acting out behaviour... .  (and it appears that their self awareness is rather transient at best)... .  

BPD symptoms are exacerbated by intimate connections with others... .  

One could argue that NONS have equal (or possibly more) responsibility in this dynamic if they have knowledge of the condition.  A willingness to pursue a relationship with a person with untreated BPD is like throwing petrol on a smoldering fire, then being confused when said fire explodes... .  

[Ex-Vamp-Slayer]

I don't like the victim role, as it doesn't do anything for me in that I had a role and a responsibility in the relationship. Now I see all the red flags that were there to start with... .  

And I can chose to learn and evolve or I can blame her of having a PD. more reflection on why and my behavior is way more productive.

Maybe one day you will be greatfull she came into your life so that you could lern more about yourself. I mean this in the kindest way possible.

[GustheDog]

Knowledge that you have a propensity to dysregulate and act out in socially unacceptable ways when triggered doesn't prevent acting out behaviour... .  (and it appears that their self awareness is rather transient at best)... .  

But avoidance of known triggers or triggering situations, until remedial action has been initiated, would go a long way.

BPD symptoms are exacerbated by intimate connections with others... .  

I know.  This is actually central to my point.  Untreated (but arguably self-aware (to whatever degree - that's another topic)) BPDs should avoid intimate relationships like the defendant in the Breunig case should avoid driving.  :)oing either is to knowingly create a significant risk of harm to others.  This is not acceptable, in my opinion.

If your last 20 relationships have all ended the same way, this is probably not just a coincidence.  And if you're smart enough to earn an advanced degree and work in a competitive profession, you're smart enough to make this inferential leap.  Maybe, *maybe* some very low functioning BPDs are incapable of this.  I am certain that my ex understood this, even if it was not something she could articulate or wished to explore.

One could argue that NONS have equal (or possibly more) responsibility in this dynamic if they have knowledge of the condition.  A willingness to pursue a relationship with a person with untreated BPD is like throwing petrol on a smoldering fire, then being confused when said fire explodes... .  

Agreed.

[Newton]

There is a fundamental difference between IQ and EQ... .  

It would be incredibly advantageous to a pwBPD and us if they could utilize their knowledge to influence their emotions... .  and that, unfortunately, is where the disconnect lies.

[GustheDog]

There is a fundamental difference between IQ and EQ... .  

It would be incredibly advantageous to a pwBPD and us if they could utilize their knowledge to influence their emotions... .  and that, unfortunately, is where the disconnect lies.

Again, I agree with your premise.  But my argument does not rely on conflating EQ with IQ.

Rather, it would be an intellectual exercise to look back over one's life and recognize a pattern, and then draw a correspondingly intellectual conclusion about its cause.

I would not ask a pwBPD to use their knowledge to influence their emotions.  I would ask them to use their knowledge to direct them towards a more responsible course of action when they are not in an emotionally-charged situation (i.e., avoiding jumping straight into relationship #342 as a result of what happened to the previous 341).

The point is not to ignore the disorder, or the non's role.  It's merely to express my personal opinion that pwBPD are not *entirely* without personal responsibility in their interactions with others.  The level of their culpability may certainly be greatly mitigated by their illness.  But I do not believe that it is rendered completely nonexistent.

[Newton]

I would suggest that even attempting to do this would trigger their defense mechanisms of denial and projection... .  

If they processed and filtered the world as we do... .  then this website wouldn't have so many members in need of help   

[GustheDog]

I would suggest that even attempting to do this would trigger their defense mechanisms of denial and projection... .  

If they processed and filtered the world as we do... .  then this website wouldn't have so many members in need of help  

I am suggesting only that on some level many BPDs possess an inchoate awareness that the problem is their own.  I would never expect them to take responsibility for or admit this.  Nor would I expect the great majority of them to ever do anything about it.  This could also be the reason why this website has so many members.

[myself]

If it's this complicated to process/filter/understand/change this stuff, from the outside looking in, as it were, imagine how difficult it is when you're the one with the disorder.

[GustheDog]

I really just can't accept that they shouldn't be held accountable for their behavior in some way, even if *greatly* relaxed in view of the disorder.

I'm basically saying, in terms of "fault" allocation: 95%-the disorder, 5%-the individual.

Bottom line is that I'm not giving up that 5%. 

[maria1]

The disorder is the individual- you can't separate them out into 95% disorder and 5% person. They are the disorder. This is the most difficult part to get because we don't get what absence of insight feels like.

Whenever my ex gets close to understanding the impact of his actions on others he has to recoil- the shame is unbearable. Why do you think the suicide rate is so high?

Recoiling from responsibility is an in built defense mechanism that he has no awareness of. He is just staying alive and running on through the only way he knows. He hates himself for it and one day he may get so low that he sees therapy is the answer- he gets there every now and again but as soon as he's coping again he starts to run again.

Blaming a person with BPD for not being responsible for their actions is like blaming a person who speaks french for speaking french. The disorder exists to not take responsibility.

[waitaminute]

... .  

Find out where the weaknesses are in yourself that left you vulnerable. Talk to a therapist. Rebuild yourself and your life. Let the whirling dervish whirl. She will punish herself, guaranteed.

Just a note on your metaphor of the whirling dervish:

They are part of Sufi, a mystical sect of ... .  Well, kinda a nondenominational religion but with strong ties to Islam. Generally peace seeking, love seeking, and God seeking, they whirl symbolically to find their center... .    of their center ... .  of their center.

I would not remark here except it is exactly and ironically what BPDs seem not to be able to do... .  Find their center, their core.

[Newton]

Borderline Personality Disorder is just that... .  their maladaptive coping mechanisms are part of who they are. The 5% of the "individual" is still influenced by the disorder... .  

I'm not suggesting their acting out behaviour shouldn't be judged if it breaches societal/legal boundaries... .  I would speculate that a large percentage of the prison populations comprise of people with pds.

However, attempting to apportion fault or blame requires a belief that they have a rational choice, an ability to be aware of a lack of sense of self... .  recognition of why they are seeking out hosts to mirror... .  introspection to identify and address their core wounds (events that may have occurred in their infancy).

Gus I appreciate your frustration... .  surely the blame lies with the FOO or circumstances which created the disorder?

[BentNotBroken]

I really just can't accept that they shouldn't be held accountable for their behavior in some way, even if *greatly* relaxed in view of the disorder.

I'm basically saying, in terms of "fault" allocation: 95%-the disorder, 5%-the individual.

Bottom line is that I'm not giving up that 5%. 

As far as a discussion amongst ourselves, I hold my ex to be 100% responsible for her own behavior. She denies having any issues whatsoever, and has committed several felonies (uncharged so far) to protect her "secret." If she were to be "not responsible" for her own behavior, then there would have to be some admission of having a mental disorder.

I would love to see her held accountable for her behavior, but it is not likely to happen as family court is basically a farce unless there is overt physical abuse to the children or the children are currently showing signs of psychological abuse.

I do have empathy for people with mental illnesses, but I have none for people who are so destructive to other people's lives. We lock up sociopaths when they harm others, but BPDs get a pass because they can be very convincing liars.

[morningagain]

I really just can't accept that they shouldn't be held accountable for their behavior in some way, even if *greatly* relaxed in view of the disorder.

I'm basically saying, in terms of "fault" allocation: 95%-the disorder, 5%-the individual.

Bottom line is that I'm not giving up that 5%. 

As far as a discussion amongst ourselves, I hold my ex to be 100% responsible for her own behavior. She denies having any issues whatsoever, and has committed several felonies (uncharged so far) to protect her "secret." If she were to be "not responsible" for her own behavior, then there would have to be some admission of having a mental disorder.

I would love to see her held accountable for her behavior, but it is not likely to happen as family court is basically a farce unless there is overt physical abuse to the children or the children are currently showing signs of psychological abuse.

I do have empathy for people with mental illnesses, but I have none for people who are so destructive to other people's lives. We lock up sociopaths when they harm others, but BPDs get a pass because they can be very convincing liars.

I read that 50% of the female prison pop and 25% of the male prison pop are BPD or with strong BPD features.  They do get held accountable same as anyone else - when they are caught and their is sufficient evidence for conviction.  Just as for everyone, if there is sufficient reason for rehabilitation via psychological help, their 'punishment' may include or be exclusively required therapy.  As far as getting away with it because of skill at lying, the very best liars are sociopaths.  with no measurable physical manifestations of lying, they intuitively pass lie detector tests, for example.

it is a big grey area much of the time and is a moving target when "holding them responsible" is the topic.

with sufficient awareness of their issues and availability of help, they do have responsibility to get the help.  it is still difficult for them.  i have bailed on therapy when i saw no benefit, and i do not have BPD.  the "no benefit" analysis was my reality.  a BPD's reality is distorted more than mine, to the best of my knowledge.

slippery slope - sucks being them.  sucks to be hurt by their disorder if you are their s/o.  terrible disorder.  pain all around.