Jealousy or abandonment issues?

[Manager32]

Greetings all,

Haven't posted in awhile, but some of you may remember my story.  I'm in the middle of a divorce and have had an on/off relationship with a girl (A) that has some borderline traits.  Things have been quite good recently.  We've been spending a lot of time together and have grown pretty close.  Our relationship is largely n the friends level right now, but I'd say we're even closer than we were when we were more romantically involved a few months ago (before the blow-up that resulted in our largely not speaking for about 6 weeks).  Things this weekend got a little odd though.

As I said, our relationship is basically on the friends level right now. She identifies me as a "real close friend."  This weekend, we were just hanging out and watching a DVD when I got several calls from my soon-to-be ex-wife.  It turned out that there was an emergency situation and my wife needed me to be there.  I told A that I was going to have to leave and she got very cold.  I asked her what was wrong, and she first speculated that my wife was either making the situation up entirely or exaggerating the severity in hopes of gaining my attention.  She then said "I've seen all of this before: been there, done that."  I assume she was referring to a guy she got romantically involved with about 12 years ago who was also in the middle of a divorce, as she often makes comments about that time and compares his situation to mine.  I couldn't reach my wife after this, but got hold of another relative who said the situation likely wasn't that bad, to hang loose and they'd cal if I was really needed.

A apologized for her behavior and said she was having an emotional day and that she shouldn't have acted that way.  She said she didn't want to create any additional stress for me and I assured her that she wasn't.  She said she'd just had to deal with a lot of people like my wife and complained about how the wife had tried to guilt me, saying "We (meaning women, I assume) are really good at that. Don't fall for it."

Things improved after this, but the wife called back a bit later letting me know it was in fact an emergency situation and that I needed to be there.  A was very nice about it and wished me luck dealing with things.  I told A that if she was right and it turned out not to be serious, that I would come back her place afterwards, which made her happy.

While I was tending to things, A texted me with messages of support and concern and sent some funny things to try and cheer me up, telling me that I was her friend and that she cared about me. At one point, she asked if I knew if I'd be able to return and I said I didn't know yet.  She said no worries, and repeated that she didn't want to add stress for me.  I assured her that she was anything but a source of stress for me, which generated a reply with just a smiley face.  Later, she asked about it again and I said I thought I probably wouldn't be able to make it back.  Again, she got very cold and snippy and I could tell she was really upset.

Not long after this, things cleared up and I was able to leave.  I told A, but she didn't seem that happy about it, and again insinuated that my wife had been playing games with me.  I validated her feelings of frustration and asked her to tell me about what she was feeling and what caused it.  She again explained that she'd had a bad day, an emotional day, and said she was taking it out on me and that she shouldn't do that, then apologized several times.  I asked her why her day was so bad and she said nothing in particular caused it, that sometimes she just felt that way for no real reason.  I headed back to her place and things were fine after that.

Her reaction seemed really over the top for someone she just sees as a friend.  This also came after Friday night, when we ended the evening with her lying with her head in my lap begging me not to go.  She's confessed to having severe abandonment issues, so I guess my question is whether or not that what's at the root of her behavior, if it's jealousy (as she's never been this way when I've left before, even when I've left after she's begged me to stay longer), or some combination of the two.  Anyone have any insights?

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[elemental]

First I want to understand, so I am going to repeat what I think I am understanding. Correct me if I am wrong.

You had an affair with this girl. You were married.

She had an affair with you. She had a boyfriend.

Your marital troubles are such that you are divorcing.

Last information you indicated that her boyfrined, upon figuring out her innapropriate relationship with you, went off the deep end and told her it was over. She herself was not sure of this, so she told you to back off and let her sort things.

We recommended to you that your involvement was of co-dependant nature with you clearly attempting to make her further dependant on you in the hopes that she would take the leap and be your significant other.

You have chosen to go full steam ahead.

She is insisting you are a good friend, but you are looking for validation that in fact she is jealous and scared you will leave, ie, she is lying about her attachment to you and is really in love with you and wants to be with you... .  and under that assumption, you would like support on how to deal with her as your girlfriend, rather than as a friend who you are being innapropriate with and who you are encouraging dependance upon you.

Where is her boyfriend. Did she end that relationship?

[Manager32]

You're not quite correct.

• I got involved with this girl after I'd told my wife I wanted a divorce and moved out of the house. My divorce is not yet final.



• She did in fact cheat on her boyfriend with me.



• Your assumption that I am trying to make her dependent on me is incorrect.



• She has accepted that her ex was sincere when he said they were done and she's moved on.



• I offered to back off and did so. Since that time, she has been initiating contact with me. We've been talking and hanging out every day.



• We are currently friends, but yes, I'd be open to more if that's where things lead.



• At times, her behavior has seemed inconsistent with seeing me as just a friend - Her quite clearly being pissed that I left her to attend to the wife's needs yesterday (along with the "been there done that" comment about our situation that referenced a past relationship) is one example.  That being said, Jealousy doesn't necessarily imply romantic feelings on her part. Whatever the motivation, she did not like that my attention was turned away from her to my wife.



• I'm trying understand the cause of her behavior so I can avoid or at least mitigate situations like yesterday

Are we on the same page now?

[elemental]

possibly.

[Manager32]

Possibly? Where is the remaining disconnect?

[almost789]

I would say both. Jealousy and abandonment go together. Whats seems so unusual to you about the other woman and the wife problems? This stuff goes on all the time. If your with your woman and the ex wife ( or wife in your case) calls and needs you for something. The other woman gets envious. What exactly are you trying to figure out?

[Manager32]

what seeed so unusual about it is it I have never seen a girl react that strongly about a guy she just consider to be a friend. It's not like we had special plans or anything we were just hanging out together. she got really upset that I was leaving to deal with my soon to be ex, and she reacted even more strongly what it look like I wasn't going to be able to come back. the been there done that comment doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the context of our being just friends either. I'm getting mixed signals and it's confusing me.I felt like abandonment issues might explain it but like I said she's never reacted like that before when I was leaving. it was just this time and it seemed to be more about the fact that I was going to support my soon to be ex and not the fact that I was leaving.

[almost789]

Oh, I see. You are confused about this relationship you have with her. Your trying to find out if she see's you as more than just a friend. My insights would be that if she's laying her head in your lap and begging you not to leave. Yeah, your more than "just a friend"

Seems as if your looking for validation here for this triangulation setting your manipulating for yourself. Two women biding for your attention. Does that make you feel important?

[Rockylove]

I'm going to go out on a limb here.  I believe you will find that some people will (perhaps subconsciously, perhaps purposefully) seek a relationship that is unattainable.  Complications are inevitable and therefore when it doesn't work out, they can not be blamed for the abandonment. 

I haven't been privy to your prior posts, but from what you've just said, it sounds like your gf sets herself up for the probable outcome. 

My 2 cents... .  you're not over your relationship~~don't start another one.  REBOUND.

[Manager32]

Seems as if your looking for validation here for this triangulation setting your manipulating for yourself. Two women biding for your attention. Does that make you feel important?

Wow. Judgemental much?  I thought this was supposed to be a place to discuss things where that wasn't an issue.  Apparently not.

I'm waiting on my divorce to be finalized.  In the meantime, I've started seeing someone else.  This was a one-off where the soon-to-be ex needed me for something.  If you consider that to be "manipulating a triangulation setting" then I really don't know what to say to you.

And what I asked for was help decoding behavior. I didn't ask anyone to validate anything.

[Manager32]

I'm going to go out on a limb here.  I believe you will find that some people will (perhaps subconsciously, perhaps purposefully) seek a relationship that is unattainable.  Complications are inevitable and therefore when it doesn't work out, they can not be blamed for the abandonment. 

I haven't been privy to your prior posts, but from what you've just said, it sounds like your gf sets herself up for the probable outcome. 

Interesting.  In this case however, it's not really unattainable. My divorce will be finalized in a few weeks and she knows that.

My 2 cents... .  you're not over your relationship~~don't start another one.  REBOUND.

I can see how it might appear that way.  However, I've been emotionally checked out of my previous marriage for a LONG time and I've never really been a rebound type of guy.  If this had been anyone else other than A, I'd never have gotten involved with her.

[Rockylove]

 

Interesting.  In this case however, it's not really unattainable. My divorce will be finalized in a few weeks and she knows that.

OK  just another thought.  You are soon to be a "free man" and although she has established "just friends" she may fear losing you to anyone (not necessarily your soon to be ex) which is stirring some emotions for her.

[almost789]

Yes, perhaps I'm being judgemental, my bad. Its just that I have read several of your posts and it just appears to me that you are telling a story of you leaving your wife for another woman who happens to be BPD (or you think she is) under the disquise that you are seeking advice. But after reading your stories it appears to me as if you are amused at the behavior of this "BPD girl"  like she's your experiment or something.

First bit of advice, your not invested in her yet. You say your "just friends" So why continue to invest in a mentally disordered woman that you are not invested in currently after all you've read about BPD on here? Most of us got caught before we knew what was coming. Your going in knowing.

[Foreverhopefull]

I would also say that it's both jealousy and abandonment issues.

I know some people do not accept or want their SO (or possible SO in your case) to entertain a friendship with their ex. If you have plans on entertaining (this sounds like the wrong word to use, but the best one I can think of right now) a relationship with your EX, you must make it clear to this girl. It has nothing to do with BPD, it's just that in their mind an Ex should become your worst enemy... .  even when kids are involved.

My only advice, if you are not completely and utterly emotionally involved with this girl, make sure you want to deal with a pwBPD before continuing to see her, relationships without BPD are hard enough.

Good Luck

[Manager32]

OK  just another thought.  You are soon to be a "free man" and although she has established "just friends" she may fear losing you to anyone (not necessarily your soon to be ex) which is stirring some emotions for her.

I think there may be something to this.  She 's about to move into a new place that's a good bit farther away from where I live than her old place is.  A couple of days ago, she asked me if I was really going to come all the way out from my side of town to visit her and I assured her that I would.  From that, it seems clear that she has some level of insecurity about whether or not I'm going to continue to be in her life.

[Manager32]

Yes, perhaps I'm being judgemental, my bad. Its just that I have read several of your posts and it just appears to me that you are telling a story of you leaving your wife for another woman who happens to be BPD (or you think she is) under the disquise that you are seeking advice. But after reading your stories it appears to me as if you are amused at the behavior of this "BPD girl"  like she's your experiment or something.

First bit of advice, your not invested in her yet. You say your "just friends" So why continue to invest in a mentally disordered woman that you are not invested in currently after all you've read about BPD on here? Most of us got caught before we knew what was coming. Your going in knowing.

No, that's not really it at all. 

First, I'm not leaving my wife for her.  The divorce was going to happen whether I'd met A or not. 

Second, I don't think she's personality disordered, although I do think she has some borderline traits.  My T agrees with that, although she acknowledges that she has never treated A, so this is an educated guess on her part.  To this point, I've seen very, very little of the behavior and faulty coping mechanisms that are generally associated with BPD.  She can be pretty emotional at times, she's insecure, she can be impulsive at times, she has some trust issues - especially with men, and she has abandonment issues as well.  I've seen all of these pop up here and there, but it's all been pretty mild to this point.  It definitely hasn't been enough to make me (or the T) think having a real relationship with her isn't possible.

She's a sweet girl. I care about her a lot and I can tell she really cares about me.  We have a lot in common, but a lot of differences as well that make things intriguing. She's kind, caring, compassionate, and has a great sense of humor. We get along really well, have a great connection and great chemistry, and we're attracted to each other.  That's why I'm interested in pursuing something with her.  I know there will be challenges to overcome, but there are in any relationship.  I came here to understand what motivates some of her behavior and to learn how to better manage myself in order to make the challenges as easy for us both to overcome as possible.

[Manager32]

I would also say that it's both jealousy and abandonment issues.

I know some people do not accept or want their SO (or possible SO in your case) to entertain a friendship with their ex. If you have plans on entertaining (this sounds like the wrong word to use, but the best one I can think of right now) a relationship with your EX, you must make it clear to this girl. It has nothing to do with BPD, it's just that in their mind an Ex should become your worst enemy... .  even when kids are involved.

I'd like for us to remain friends with the ex and A is aware of that, although it looks like this isn't going to be possible.

[elemental]

The best thing you can probably do, then, if you want to reassure her, is be calm and present.

When she realizes that you are accessible, that the extra distance to drive is not a particular issue to you, likely after a couple of months or so, she will accept that to you she is valued and will be cared for and supported.

Some people, who may not really have personality disorders, have issues of anxiety or abandonment due to being mistreated. It can really effect someone's sense of value to other people and basic self esteem.

I think she is being triggered by your divorce. Probably she is wondering about your support to your stbx.

[Manager32]

Thanks elemental, I appreciate the reply.  I think what you've said is pretty accurate.  

[almost789]

Manger32: " Her reaction seemed really over the top for someone she just sees as a friend.  This also came after Friday night, when we ended the evening with her lying with her head in my lap begging me not to go."

What do your instincts tell you about this reaction?

[Grey Kitty]

Just reading this without prior background, it is pretty clear that you and A are not "just friends."

Earlier you did intentionally switch from being "in a relationship" to "not in a relationship/just friends". But seeing somebody every day, especially somebody you ARE romantically interested in isn't "just friends."

I would venture to guess that if she were to go on dates with another guy you would be concerned and/or upset.

It is pretty clear from what you have said that if you were to go on dates with another woman she would be concerned and/or upset.

Unfortunately for you, it is very ambiguous exactly what your relationship with A is.  When your divorce is final in a couple weeks would be a natural time to have some sort of conversation with her about it... .  assuming you want out of this ambiguous situation, that is.

And what do you want? Are you content to be single and in an ambiguous relationship with A?

If this isn't going anywhere, would you rather be looking for someone else to date?

Does the idea of staying single after your divorce appeal to you?

[Foreverhopefull]

I'd like for us to remain friends with the ex and A is aware of that, although it looks like this isn't going to be possible.

You can still have a friendship with your Ex. You just need to make it clear to her that this is what you is important to you and that you will have it. How she reacts to it is her reaction, and hers alone. Reassure her on what your intentions are with her and your ex. Then keep in mind that actions speak louder than words. Be true to what you have said to her.

[Manager32]

Manger32: " Her reaction seemed really over the top for someone she just sees as a friend.  This also came after Friday night, when we ended the evening with her lying with her head in my lap begging me not to go."

What do your instincts tell you about this reaction?

That it was two different reactions on her part.  Friday night was ":)on't go yet! I'm not ready for you to. You can stay a little longer, right? We're having so much fun! Just one more episode of the show we're watching ... .  plllleeeeaaaaase?  :-) "

She started this at about 11:00pm and it continued until 3:00am.  She asked if she could lay with her head in my lap at about 2:15am and I told her yes.  I gently rubbed her arm and her back as she lay there and it was nice. She actually fell asleep there at about 2:50am. When I woke her up and told her it was late and that I really had to go, she "play pouted" a little bit, but she was ok with it and I got a nice long hug before I left.  This isn't the first time she's worked on me to stay later than I had planned and she's never gotten upset about my leaving when I was finally ready.

Sunday was completely different.  She was angry, upset, and it was all about how my stbx was gaming me and how she'd had to go through all of this before.  It wasn't that I was leaving, it was that I was going to be with the ex.  I do think she feels more for me than she's willing to let on right now, but she's being guarded because of what has happened to her before and she's not sure of things with the divorce still in progress.  When I left to attend to the stbx, I think I hurt her feelings, triggered her abandonment issues, and validated some of her concerns, in a way.  I think she's wondering where she stands a little bit, right now.

Thoughts?

[Manager32]

Just reading this without prior background, it is pretty clear that you and A are not "just friends."

Earlier you did intentionally switch from being "in a relationship" to "not in a relationship/just friends". But seeing somebody every day, especially somebody you ARE romantically interested in isn't "just friends."

Yeah, we spend pretty much all of our free time together right now.

I would venture to guess that if she were to go on dates with another guy you would be concerned and/or upset.

Definitely.

It is pretty clear from what you have said that if you were to go on dates with another woman she would be concerned and/or upset.

She's "play stolen" my phone before when I was just getting texts from a female friend, so I'd say you're probably right about that.

Unfortunately for you, it is very ambiguous exactly what your relationship with A is.  When your divorce is final in a couple weeks would be a natural time to have some sort of conversation with her about it... .  assuming you want out of this ambiguous situation, that is.

And what do you want? Are you content to be single and in an ambiguous relationship with A?

If this isn't going anywhere, would you rather be looking for someone else to date?

Does the idea of staying single after your divorce appeal to you?

I don't necessarily mind staying single after the divorce.  I'm a confident guy and I can be fulfilled in my life without a relationship.

That being said, I have had strong feelings for A for a long time now.  I'd like to be more than friends, definitely.  I don't want things to be ambiguous, but I haven't felt right about bringing it up with her having been through all of the BIG life changes she's been through lately (losing her job, losing her bf, upsetting her friends and family, getting a new job, moving) and with my divorce still ongoing.  Originally I thought that, in a week or two, when things are a bit more settled, I might have "the talk."  After this weekend, I'm wondering if I don't need to go ahead and make my feelings clear sooner than that.

[almost789]

I think her behavior sound childish and yes, alot like someone with BPD. I know it seems amusing to you right now to be so needed but you should really reconsider as your not completely invested yet.

[Manager32]

You can still have a friendship with your Ex. You just need to make it clear to her that this is what you is important to you and that you will have it. How she reacts to it is her reaction, and hers alone. Reassure her on what your intentions are with her and your ex. Then keep in mind that actions speak louder than words. Be true to what you have said to her.

A's not had  lot to say about that. 

I don't think the stbx is willing to be friends, at least in the short term, so it probably won't be an issue.  She was hoping for a reconciliation up until the very end.  She's still hurting and needs some space to detach and recover, which I completely understand.  I do hope that we can be friends eventually, as that's the one part of our relationship that worked for both of us.

[Manager32]

I think her behavior sound childish and yes, alot like someone with BPD. I know it seems amusing to you right now to be so needed but you should really reconsider as your not completely invested yet.

It may have read more childlike than it actually was. Not all of those things were said at the same time the way I have them quoted, so it didn't come across that way in person, and it wasn't delivered in a childish tone.  She was working me, but being playful about it.  I do understand your point, though.

[Grey Kitty]

That being said, I have had strong feelings for A for a long time now.  I'd like to be more than friends, definitely.  I don't want things to be ambiguous, but I haven't felt right about bringing it up with her having been through all of the BIG life changes she's been through lately (losing her job, losing her bf, upsetting her friends and family, getting a new job, moving) and with my divorce still ongoing.  Originally I thought that, in a week or two, when things are a bit more settled, I might have "the talk."  After this weekend, I'm wondering if I don't need to go ahead and make my feelings clear sooner than that.

Weeeeellll... .  this advice I'm about to hand you is more for general living/relating, and it isn't specific in any way to BPD behaviors... .  but here's one I've found:

When I do something motivated by fear of how another person might react, I don't like what I do very much. When I look at what I'm afraid of straight in the eye, consider it, and then think about what my values and motivations are... .  I am much happier with myself after the fact.

Courage is not lack of fear--it is refusing to let the fear define yourself or your actions. And I know I like myself better when I'm acting out of courage than when I'm reacting out of fear.

So I'd suggest that you think a bit more about what you really want to ask her for... .  and how you would feel if she said "no" to it... .  and then go for it. OTOH, if you know or are 99% certain she will react badly, like a BPD dysregulated episode with nothing important learned and communicated when it is all done then consider how you feel about NOT requesting anything.

Whatever, I wish you the best, and hope that both your lives stop having so many difficult disruptions soon!