Can pwBPD be spiteful or jealous because those around them are happy?

[arabella25]

Can people with BPD often be spiteful or jealous when those around them are happy?

[asunder]

I noticed this disturbing trait in my BPDw emerge over the last couple of years.  If I was doing something that was fun or enjoyable to me, she would begrudge me for it... .  even going so far at times to try and subvert the activity.  It's just so weird to me that this was never something she did for years and years prior.  Then all of a sudden it started to come out.

[trevjim]

Ye i think so, I remember her getting annoyed at me for having a good time doing whatever, On one of our 'break ups' she got annoyed with me for going to the pub with my friends one afternoon, i was like well you have just been on holiday (sleeping around on it) with your friends, doing this and that, but nope, i was out having fun whilst she was at home all 'alone'

she would btch about her cousin because her dad spoiles her, the list goes on

[Dawning]

Yes, I also noticed that with ex ud NPD/BPD.If he caused  my happiness it was OK and he would stand there with a big grin.On the other hand, when something outside him would make me happy or smile, he became angry and tried to stop it. One day I had fed the chickens and watched them eating. It looked so beautiful, their feathers shone in the sunlight and they were so happily eating their food. It brought a smile on my face . Ex noticed it and shouted at me 'don't stand there doing nothing, there is more work to be done.

[trouble11]

Funny ... .  my exBPDbf liked to golf, but had a rotating schedule and always liked to golf on the weekdays. He hated going on the weekends because it was crowded.  I belong to a dog training club that trains on the weekends.  My first thought was PERFECT it doesn't interfere with him wanting me to golf.  WRONG!  When I would get ready to go to dog training he would book a Tee Time for early afternoon so I would have to hurry right home the second I was done working dogs.  This was my only social outlet.  So the guy who hated golfing on weekends would make an exception if I was training.  If I wasn't training we would sit home and do nothing.   

[GreenMango]

It may help to point out that the need for enmeshment (sameness in emotions or perceptions) is pretty strong in a person who has poor personal/psychological boundaries, like BPD.

It means when they are feeling bad, you need to be feeling bad too.  And, it's invalidating when it isn't or you have boundaries.

[stoic83]

Yes, I also noticed that with ex ud NPD/BPD.If he caused  my happiness it was OK and he would stand there with a big grin.On the other hand, when something outside him would make me happy or smile, he became angry and tried to stop it. One day I had fed the chickens and watched them eating. It looked so beautiful, their feathers shone in the sunlight and they were so happily eating their food. It brought a smile on my face . Ex noticed it and shouted at me 'don't stand there doing nothing, there is more work to be done.

I went to an al-anon meeting when she relapsed out my house and met women who were so kind and empathetic. it felt like an alternate reality. I came home with a big grin on my face... .  i felt so good after being abused and humiliated for weeks. She ripped me apart... .  this is after she turned in to the biggest aa nazi this world has ever known. When she encouraged me to go to al anon it was okay, but when I went for myself to feel better... .  it caused her to rage on me. I am pretty sure she was NPD/BPD or nBPD too! I had a book on narcissists(that my mother, the narcissist, gave me), and she exclaimed, I think I am a narcissist! Like it was no big deal... .  .

[daintrovert13]

It brought a smile on my face . Ex noticed it and shouted at me 'don't stand there doing nothing, there is more work to be done.

sorry I just pictured the scene.

But, yes my ex seemed to be morbidly jealous. Anything that enhanced my appearance or my

overall happiness she disapproved. Even caused me neglect my rabbit. Who gets jealous of a bunny rabbit? If she felt I spent too much time with my mother she would yell out my name. At parties or functions she immediately wiped all smiles off her face and just zoned out during that entire time. Once we were back in the car going home she was all smiles again. Now thinking back... I really was a puppet.

[GustheDog]

Yes, I noticed this with my ex.  And this thread made me think of a related observation: I think my ex began to resent any achievements I made and also certain aspects of my personality.

More specifically, I think this has to do with the initial mirroring/idealization.  BPDs don't have a strong self and are filled with self-loathing.  They therefore attach to people with a strong sense of self, and, my guess would be that usually these people have traits - like integrity, patience, trustworthiness, self-discipline, generosity, self-sufficiency, etc. - that the pwBPD probably lacks.

I think my ex really started to resent the fact that I was a good person and she wasn't - especially in light of my disappointment, which must have been apparent, when the first cracks in the mirror started popping up.  She initially tried to become me as a result of her mirroring and idolization, but since she was just faking it she couldn't sustain it indefinitely.  

Maybe some of the hate we get in the end is resentment rooted in envy.  She definitely didn't like happy people either, though.  Basically, other than a few people for limited amounts of time, she didn't like anyone.  I watched her paint people white, then black, then white again all the time, but there were always far more black than white.  In retrospect, *this* was a huge red flag that I overlooked big time.

[stoic83]

Yes, I noticed this with my ex.  And this thread made me think of a related observation: I think my ex began to resent any achievements I made and also certain aspects of my personality.

She definitely didn't like happy people either, though.  Basically, other than a few people for limited amounts of time, she didn't like anyone.  I watched her paint people white, then black, then white again all the time, but there were always far more black than white.  In retrospect, *this* was a huge red flag that I overlooked big time.

Hey gust, you know when I realized i was in it it too long... .  was when i started to resent myself for my achievements and positive aspects of my personality... .  I'm too loving, I'm too smart, I'm boring... .  she was trying to get me to be more like her... .  addict, user, abusive, selfish... .  then she wouldn't have to feel guilty when she lied to me (pathological) or who knows what else (don't want to know anymore).

Also, I start splitting once i get out of the relationship... .  idealizing other people in my life, or devaluing them... .  cutting people out or being overly complimentary with people i haven't talked to in a very long time. Acting needy, acting avoidant... .  push pulling my friends, being oversensitive... .  

My post-breakup behavior has gotten worse and worse with each toxic breakup. So i am glad i am on these boards a lot because it beats ruining my reputation any more with friends and distant family, by acting a fool!

[GustheDog]

Yes, I noticed this with my ex.  And this thread made me think of a related observation: I think my ex began to resent any achievements I made and also certain aspects of my personality.

She definitely didn't like happy people either, though.  Basically, other than a few people for limited amounts of time, she didn't like anyone.  I watched her paint people white, then black, then white again all the time, but there were always far more black than white.  In retrospect, *this* was a huge red flag that I overlooked big time.

Hey gust, you know when I realized i was in it it too long... .  was when i started to resent myself for my achievements and positive aspects of my personality... .  I'm too loving, I'm too smart, I'm boring... .  she was trying to get me to be more like her... .  addict, user, abusive, selfish... .  then she wouldn't have to feel guilty when she lied to me (pathological) or who knows what else (don't want to know anymore).

Also, I start splitting once i get out of the relationship... .  idealizing other people in my life, or devaluing them... .  cutting people out or being overly complimentary with people i haven't talked to in a very long time. Acting needy, acting avoidant... .  push pulling my friends, being oversensitive... .  

My post-breakup behavior has gotten worse and worse with each toxic breakup. So i am glad i am on these boards a lot because it beats ruining my reputation any more with friends and distant family, by acting a fool!

I haven't noticed any fleas of my own, but, then again, I haven't been getting out or interacting with others much.  I guess I have painted her a little black myself, however, I haven't been smearing her or anything (other than on these boards - and if "the facts" = smearing).  Honestly, though, if you bulldoze my life, I'm probably not going to think of you fondly.  BPD or otherwise.

Come to think of it, my ex's favorite pastime was complaining - usually about other people.  Someone always seemed to be annoying her, giving her dirty looks, being rude to her, hurting her, getting an opportunity that should have been "hers," etc.

Yet there was also always a rescuer - some flicker of white in the sea of black.  She talked about her job a lot.  She hated most of her colleagues, but "really liked" one or two people - usually higher-ranking males.

Is there a disgust stage to grief?  I've had the depression, the anger, and the bargaining.  Now I just sort of want to vomit when I think about her.

[stoic83]

I haven't noticed any fleas of my own, but, then again, I haven't been getting out or interacting with others much.  I guess I have painted her a little black myself, however, I haven't been smearing her or anything (other than on these boards - and if "the facts" = smearing).  Honestly, though, if you bulldoze my life, I'm probably not going to think of you fondly.  BPD or otherwise.

Come to think of it, my ex's favorite pastime was complaining - usually about other people.  Someone always seemed to be annoying her, giving her dirty looks, being rude to her, hurting her, getting an opportunity that should have been "hers," etc.

Yet there was also always a rescuer - some flicker of white in the sea of black.  She talked about her job a lot.  She hated most of her colleagues, but "really liked" one or two people - usually higher-ranking males.

Is there a disgust stage to grief?  I've had the depression, the anger, and the bargaining.  Now I just sort of want to vomit when I think about her.

I can relate to everything you've said here. I don't know if you ever lived with your ex... .  but that made it worse. i've always been highly sensitive and empathetic so I can see why I would pick the fleas up easier than some others. I also repeated this rs several times, and the first two breakups I didn't have any fleas whatsoever.

I've had healthy relationships before, but I chose to end two of them for lacking common interests, and my high school girlfriend dumped me for a doctor  No craziness there really... .  just women that I didn't see myself happy with long term.

It was only these last two... .  I think her illness has gotten worse, and there are different levels of severity. In any case I am probably justified why I got the fleas, because it was extremely embarrassing to me... .  but also helped me to understand and be more empathetic to how she feels all of the time.

I guess over the past 4 years i really got to know the person beyond the illness. I probably knew her better than most anyone else due to her identity disturbances, etc... .  why did I show compassion and empathy for this person, despite the fact that she is crazy and acted towards me in ways that I would never tolerate from anyone else?

Because I could see the fact that she is "mentally ill" like someone who has cancer or down syndrome. She is limited. She told me this... .  do you want to be the guy that leaves his girlfriend because she has cancer or mental illness? No. The thing is, that she deep down she wishes no wrong on anybody... .  her brain doesn't work properly. I am aware of this. I truly loved her, even though her behavior was disgusting and she was cruel and unsympathetic towards me. Does that make me pathetic? Or does that make me compassionate?

Once I really felt like I was in her shoes(via fleas), it made things worse as far as me getting out of the rs... .  bc my empathy overcame any thoughts of disgust... .  pity is more the word i am looking for. Feeling like a BPD feels is the most gut wrenching awful thing imaginable... .  extremely needy, confused, no trust in anybody, constantly anxious and looking for someone with a familiar face. i felt this... .  

Im glad you didn't experience it... .  because it is the absolute worst feeling in the world. I don't know how anybody lives with that condition... .  what a nightmare. When you have as much pity for someone as I had for her, it wasn't about disgust anymore... .  but yes, in the past I was plenty disgusted by her behavior... .  and during her relapse i almost vomited as well. For some unknown reason, I kept getting sucked back in... .  even after learning about the disorder... .  I felt like it was my destiny or something... .  like this has been the most profound and painful experience in my life... .  what is the moral to the story, what is the lesson, where is the happy ending? Where is any ending?

I will never be the same and that might be a good thing. I have experienced what mental illness feels like and I am much more compassionate because of it. I mean imagine if your kid had a mental illness... .  sheesh. Nancy Lanza RIP.

[KellyO]

If I was happy, something nice happened to me... .  my ex made sure I wouldn't be happy for long. He simply started a scene. Now I know it is his way to get the attention back to him.

[goodguy]

It brought a smile on my face . Ex noticed it and shouted at me 'don't stand there doing nothing, there is more work to be done.

sorry I just pictured the scene.

But, yes my ex seemed to be morbidly jealous. Anything that enhanced my appearance or my

overall happiness she disapproved. Even caused me neglect my rabbit. Who gets jealous of a bunny rabbit? If she felt I spent too much time with my mother she would yell out my name. At parties or functions she immediately wiped all smiles off her face and just zoned out during that entire time. Once we were back in the car going home she was all smiles again. Now thinking back... I really was a puppet.

Wow - my BPDexgf did exactly this

[GustheDog]

Aha!  I finally figured it out, I think.

If I was happy about something, she shamed me.  E.g., I'd tell her about things that would happen at work - I got a bonus, somebody important thinks I'm impressive - you name it.  Instead of being happy with/for me, she'd tell me I was arrogant, conceited, narcissistic, annoying, etc. 

I'd believe her, and then I wouldn't be happy anymore either.  Such contempt for someone who only wants to give you the world.

I'm very much still grieving my r/s, but, I've gotta say, another part of me is overjoyed.  Coming out of the fog and getting my rational mind back - not having to second guess the instincts that I've been able to rely on my whole life, and which have served me very well up to this point, feels great!  Little by little, I'm getting my "self" back.  I'm gonna be stingy with that sucka in the future.

[stoic83]

\

Hey gus, mine followed through w the puppy... .  I chose the breed, a wheaton terrier named chuy. She didn't understand that I didn't care enough about the puppy over a two week time for her to use him as emotional blackmail... Lol.

You know I actually am really sad about the dog... .  she will be a terrible dog owner. She was splitting animals all the time.

"I'm taking chuy, and I'm leaving and you will never see us again... .  "

"i took chuy to my meeting with me, because we were all worried that you were gonna do something to him."

"Im gonna leave chuy with his daddy... .  "

Mine doesn't sound as linguistically gifted as yours... .  I'm beginning to think she sounds more NPD than BPD... .  supposedly hfBPD is a farce... what are your thoughts on that (philosophy/math undergrad here... .  what's with all of the philosophers and their BPD gfs?)

I've read that low functioning BPD is the real BPD, and high functioning BPD is NPD almost every time... .  

[GreenMango]

Gus I hope you see that her shaming was projection.  those differences between your feelings (happy, hanging out with friends, etc) versus hers show her how different and possibly how abnormal her feelings are ... .  And thus shame.

Shame and BPD do not mix.  This stuff gets passed off on the nearest person in vitriol, negative comments, or acting out.  Projection is a very trippy defense mechanism and most commonly seen in children (reasonable).  But its really strange when its coming from an adult. 

I mean it when I say that belief "they feel the same way you do". From the ten beliefs that can keep you stuck is way more in-depth than just they loved me like I loved them.

Unfortunately being around someone who does this chronically can really chip away at personal emotional boundaries, especially if you are feeling down from the relationship.  It's a good lesson on who not to let into your life in the future and what to look for in a person.

These type of character traits makes a person unsafe or not a great partner.

[james oday]

That is the definition of insanity.

[GreenMango]

Oday I was talking to a few members on a thread about that awhile back.  And honestly it was mentioned. 

Before all this I had idea that insanity was the clearly psychotic person who many times is typed as the transient who mumbled to themself and is so completely out of touch reality that you can tell.  But often times it isn't.

It's can be the person who's emotional instability affects their perceptions to such a degree that it affects their thinking (cognitive distortions) and their behavior in the most innocuous everyday things.  This is were that statement feelings are facts comes from.  Like how they view friendships, when someone doesn't feel the same as they do... .  to jealousy over attachments to pets.  It can be in the everyday. 

It is a very real mental illness.  Looks can be deceiving.

Gus and Stoic please know that while each one of us brings our issues into a relationship of this kind ... .  The person you loved was dealing with this long before you came into their life, the ways it played out with you while so incredibly sad and painful feel personal the likelihood is this is a life long pattern for this person.  It doesn't speak to your loveableness or ability to maintain a relationship.  These relationships are notorious conflict riddled and very rocky for many reasons.

[GustheDog]

Mine doesn't sound as linguistically gifted as yours... .  I'm beginning to think she sounds more NPD than BPD... .  supposedly hfBPD is a farce...

Oh I certainly spy some N in her, but I have to rule out full-blown NPD.  She just doesn't have much grandiosity to her.  Mostly, she fit the waif rubric pretty well. 

HOWEVER, it could be that she kept that under the radar intentionally, because she did seem to be feeling fairly self-important at the end, and some of the things she said and did - and the way she said and did them - did brush me as a little sadistic.  But then she'd be sobbing the next day and acting helpless, so I really can't say.

In summary, she definitely borrowed my "self," and she definitely has an extremely weak identity of her own.  NPDs, to my knowledge, don't have this problem.  If she was NPD, I think she'd require my admiration rather than my care-taking.  And, if NPD, I don't think we'd have had nearly two years' worth of a relatively smooth r/s.  I have a strong identity myself, and I suspect I'd clash very hard with a full-out NPD (my father is NPD, and is a case in point here).

what are your thoughts on that (philosophy/math undergrad here... .  what's with all of the philosophers and their BPD gfs?)

We've got some N in us, I suspect.  Probably, we're also bookish and maybe have some self-confidence issues.

We think our way through life - deeply, diligently, and deliberately.  When someone comes along and tells us our way of making sense out of the world is just aces!, we just might hope that person sticks around and keeps saying so.

[GustheDog]

Gus I hope you see that her shaming was projection.  those differences between your feelings (happy, hanging out with friends, etc) versus hers show her how different and possibly how abnormal her feelings are ... .  And thus shame.

Shame and BPD do not mix.  This stuff gets passed off on the nearest person in vitriol, negative comments, or acting out.  Projection is a very trippy defense mechanism and most commonly seen in children (reasonable).  But its really strange when its coming from an adult. 

I mean it when I say that belief "they feel the same way you do". From the ten beliefs that can keep you stuck is way more in-depth than just they loved me like I loved them.

Unfortunately being around someone who does this chronically can really chip away at personal emotional boundaries, especially if you are feeling down from the relationship.  It's a good lesson on who not to let into your life in the future and what to look for in a person.

These type of character traits makes a person unsafe or not a great partner.

Thanks, GM.  And, yes, I now clearly see those remarks as her projecting.  I was so blind to everything that was happening, and I bought everything she was selling.  I blamed myself and even disliked myself for quite a while in the wake of our r/s.  It's good to learn I can stop feeling that way now.

[GreenMango]

We can project too... .  like this person has the same desires we do, wants the things we want, is the person we believe they are... .  then find out they aren't.  This is a bitter pill.

The road out is more than just ending the relationship.  Lots of us have been there.  It can be a lot of rebuilding of personal stuff too, self esteem, goals, friendships, family, work, new emotional tools etc.

It was hardest for me when I realized that the relationship had done a lot more damage than ever imagined possible.  I'm still repairing relationships slowly to this day.

There is a really good lesson in all this though... .  I know its hard to see this now... .  but this relationship can make you a more aware, thoughtful, and better person.  You will have learned all kinds of things that if you do the work will make your life infinitely more satisfying and you won't pick a person like this again. 

Hang in there.

[stoic83]

Mine doesn't sound as linguistically gifted as yours... .  I'm beginning to think she sounds more NPD than BPD... .  supposedly hfBPD is a farce...

Oh I certainly spy some N in her, but I have to rule out full-blown NPD.  She just doesn't have much grandiosity to her.  Mostly, she fit the waif rubric pretty well. 

HOWEVER, it could be that she kept that under the radar intentionally, because she did seem to be feeling fairly self-important at the end, and some of the things she said and did - and the way she said and did them - did brush me as a little sadistic.  But then she'd be sobbing the next day and acting helpless, so I really can't say.

In summary, she definitely borrowed my "self," and she definitely has an extremely weak identity of her own.  NPDs, to my knowledge, don't have this problem.  If she was NPD, I think she'd require my admiration rather than my care-taking.  And, if NPD, I don't think we'd have had nearly two years' worth of a relatively smooth r/s.  I have a strong identity myself, and I suspect I'd clash very hard with a full-out NPD (my father is NPD, and is a case in point here).

what are your thoughts on that (philosophy/math undergrad here... .  what's with all of the philosophers and their BPD gfs?)

We've got some N in us, I suspect.  Probably, we're also bookish and maybe have some self-confidence issues.

We think our way through life - deeply, diligently, and deliberately.  When someone comes along and tells us our way of making sense out of the world is just aces!, we just might hope that person sticks around and keeps saying so.

Alright... .  well unfortunately for you, you might come off as polished, well-written, insightful, etc... .  probably intimidating others, and also earning a lot of well deserved praise for your careful choice of words, thoughtful communication, and assertive communication style... .  maybe the right brain stimulation (for lack of a better word) was something you were craving?

I know that I picked up philosophy and the ba, because my right brain wasn't getting enough stimulation. I studied abroad in france... .  and spend time with all different types of people (socially liberal).

As you know, math and philosophy intersect, and that union is referred to as Logic and Philosophy of Science which is pretty much like the wise-mind of academia as far as I'm concerned.

I see you trying to use your left brain to figure this out... .  I think your observations are spot on... .  but just as our exes require an excessive amount of caretaking to feel comforable... we require an excessive amount of understanding to feel comfortable?

As I work with my T, I am starting to feel the excitement in the union of both sides of my brain again... .  

I think my exwBPD really stimulated my right brain... .  and it is something that I needed.

I was a bit worried about one of your posts where you said that you are happy to get back to your left brain... .  

To be honest with you, I feel like I was all "reasonable mind" in this relationship... .  because I had to be. There was no room for my emotions in this relationship... .  her emotions were overpowering.

I can't argue with your response about hfBPD vs NPD... .  i concur that the hysterical crying and apologies do not seem to be the actions of someone with NPD. Crocodile tears?

So your pops has NPD? I'm pretty sure my mom has it... .  that is probably why my N traits are more covert... .  

I can say that you are a much better writer than I am... .  I feel sorry for you that you feel so valued for your integrity, intelligence and thoughtful discourse... .  and although I'm sure you seek understanding and not sympathy, I am merely projecting what I would want for myself if I were you... .  which is really empathy. Isn't empathy a projection of sorts? I think projection can be good sometimes... .  like with a T, projections can help you learn about yourself.

I agree with you that you seem very polished and valuable to society, Gus... .  but don't let the fact that you clearly have a strong moral code and a sharp mind that you clearly have an intrinsic value that has perhaps been neglected... .  forget all this extrinsic stuff for a second... .  

In some ways ignorance is bliss... .  I appreciated the light-hearted fantasy world of the borderline. It reminded me of being a kid... .  when I felt I was valued for more than just my intelligence or how well I extended my mother's ego. You see, before the age of identity-formation the NPD parent is not challenged and just enjoys the admiration... .  we might have been validating their god complex... .  but we didn't care, we were happy.

There is so much more to life than working towards "the greatest good". Let your hair down sometimes brother. Well this is what I would want someone to say to me... .  Thanks for practicing some humility with me! It's good to reduce any undesirable N traits. That's one of the reasons why I'm here:)

Our true friends will not tell us what we want to hear, they will tell us what we need to hear.

Stoic

[stoic83]

We can project too... .  like this person has the same desires we do, wants the things we want, is the person we believe they are... .  then find out they aren't.  This is a bitter pill.

The road out is more than just ending the relationship.  Lots of us have been there.  It can be a lot of rebuilding of personal stuff too, self esteem, goals, friendships, family, work, new emotional tools etc.

It was hardest for me when I realized that the relationship had done a lot more damage than ever imagined possible.  I'm still repairing relationships slowly to this day.

There is a really good lesson in all this though... .  I know its hard to see this now... .  but this relationship can make you a more aware, thoughtful, and better person.  You will have learned all kinds of things that if you do the work will make your life infinitely more satisfying and you won't pick a person like this again. 

Hang in there.

hey GM, i really like this post. I am still shocked at how far i allowed myself to slip in all this mess. This relationship has damaged me greatly... .  but sometimes things have to break so that we can put them back together the right way... .  and I'm not talking about the relationship, I am talking about myself. This relationship literally broke me... .  but rather than feel sorry for myself... .  I am excited about the opportunity to re-parent myself... .  get rid of any undesirable N traits or narcissistic wounds so that I can find healthier relationships.

I am no longer feeling shame for carrying these wounds... because at least they are mine. Now that I can focus on myself, I can stop projecting on to my exwBPD... .  and start taking care of the person that I was neglecting most in this relationship... .  MYSELF!

I have needs in a relationship, and sometimes I need help... .  and coming here and asking for help is a great start! Hell, I'm getting more needs fulfilled listening to everybody here than I was in the relationship!

Thanks for all of your help and dedication GM... .  you have made a positive difference in my life.

Stoic

[GustheDog]

Alright... .  well unfortunately for you, you might come off as polished, well-written, insightful, etc... .  probably intimidating others, and also earning a lot of well deserved praise for your careful choice of words, thoughtful communication, and assertive communication style... .  maybe the right brain stimulation (for lack of a better word) was something you were craving?

Could be.  I don't necessarily view it as unfortunate, and my goal, on these boards at least, is not to intimidate.  Persuasive writing is how I earn a living, though, and some degree of intimidation can often be leveraged to that end.  I should have avoided collective pronouns in my earlier post - I was speaking for myself, and just conjecturing as to why philosophers might be drawn to a BPD generally.  I didn't wish to accuse you of being a narcissist - I haven't seen anything in your posts that would warrant that.

Also, keep in mind that not all narcissism is of the "malignant" variety.  I'm not a sadist, nor do I use people.  I'm narcissistic in the sense that I derive some (likely, too much) of my own self-worth from how capable, helpful, useful, good, etc., I'm viewed by others.  Some of my friends find me completely useless as anything other than a bag of wind - but I don't discard them for that!  Either way, it's a product of my FOO, and something I can see needs to be addressed in the aftermath of my BPD relationship.

I know that I picked up philosophy and the ba, because my right brain wasn't getting enough stimulation. I studied abroad in france... .  and spend time with all different types of people (socially liberal).

As you know, math and philosophy intersect, and that union is referred to as Logic and Philosophy of Science which is pretty much like the wise-mind of academia as far as I'm concerned.

Interesting.  I don't derive much right-brain stimulation in my own study of philosophy - save for the fact that I find it enjoyable.

They certainly do intersect; math is logic.

I see you trying to use your left brain to figure this out... .  I think your observations are spot on... .  but just as our exes require an excessive amount of caretaking to feel comforable... we require an excessive amount of understanding to feel comfortable?

It's the only way I know how, probably.  I don't know how to "emotionally understand" something.

I require understanding, yes, but also I require serving a purpose, and serving it well.  This may not be a good thing.

I was a bit worried about one of your posts where you said that you are happy to get back to your left brain... .  

To be honest with you, I feel like I was all "reasonable mind" in this relationship... .  because I had to be. There was no room for my emotions in this relationship... .  her emotions were overpowering.

I can't argue with your response about hfBPD vs NPD... .  i concur that the hysterical crying and apologies do not seem to be the actions of someone with NPD. Crocodile tears?

I was the same way for the vast majority of my r/s - my rational nature balanced out her volatile emotions and kept the whole ship afloat for a long time.  Her moods could fluctuate and it didn't throw me, because I could still trust myself and she'd eventually stabilize against my constancy.  I was her anchor.  What went wrong in the end is that her dysregulation began to erode this very structure.  Previously, she'd never attacked *me* or my "good."  Suddenly, this was called into question, and, in turn, I began to question myself.  Now we were two people with no grasp on what was "real."  The anchor no longer held.  Here is where I also became emotional - I'd reached my breaking point - and she couldn't handle this.  So she fled.

I think they were real tears - their true cause I'm less sure about.

I feel sorry for you that you feel so valued for your integrity, intelligence and thoughtful discourse... .  and although I'm sure you seek understanding and not sympathy, I am merely projecting what I would want for myself if I were you... .  which is really empathy. Isn't empathy a projection of sorts? I think projection can be good sometimes... .  like with a T, projections can help you learn about yourself.

Sure, I desire empathy.  As to the traits you've mentioned - I do wish to be valued for those things.  What hurts is that someone has manipulated me under the guise of appreciating me for possessing them.

but don't let the fact that you clearly have a strong moral code and a sharp mind that you clearly have an intrinsic value that has perhaps been neglected... .  forget all this extrinsic stuff for a second... .  

In some ways ignorance is bliss... .  I appreciated the light-hearted fantasy world of the borderline. It reminded me of being a kid... .  when I felt I was valued for more than just my intelligence or how well I extended my mother's ego. You see, before the age of identity-formation the NPD parent is not challenged and just enjoys the admiration... .  we might have been validating their god complex... .  but we didn't care, we were happy.

There is so much more to life than working towards "the greatest good". Let your hair down sometimes brother. Well this is what I would want someone to say to me... .  Thanks for practicing some humility with me! It's good to reduce any undesirable N traits. That's one of the reasons why I'm here:)

Our true friends will not tell us what we want to hear, they will tell us what we need to hear.

Stoic

Oh, I absolutely agree.  When she was in abandoned-child stance and I was in lonely-child stance, it melted my heart.  It's those moments that are hardest to break away from.  And, you're right, I wasn't thinking about anything at those times - just how nice it felt to allow myself to be vulnerable, and have someone else be comfortable enough to do the same.

[Leaf]

Yes, I recognize that. Althogether I have spent zillions of hours waiting while my BPDxbf selected building materials in DIY shops. Only once we went to a garden centre, which I like, because a family member of his had asked me to fix up her garden. I was so much absorbed in choosing plants, that he couldn't stand it. I was happily doing something and it didn't involve him! Within five minutes he got irritated and angry. I still have dent in my car to prove it.

[cal644]

My wife only seemed to be happy when she brought me down.  She resented that I could talk to and get along with anybody.  One day I told her how I had fun watching a softball game (it drove her into a rage) because I had fun.  I think that people with BPD want to bring us down to their level and resent that we can have fun or be happy (since deep down they suffer so badly) I think they are jealous of the true joy we can have and feel.

[real lady]

Interesting question and I think that it is more complex than we may first think. I do believe that there is MUCH projection from a pwBPD but I also think that this touches NARCISSISM and deflects from the pwBPD GETTING ATTENTION... .  maybe not so much as I am "happy" and he is mad or jealous about it but that I am NOT MISERABLE and thus confirming how HE feels... .  I am NOT projecting HIS feelings and he may feel a "disrespect" that I am (unconsciously) competing with him.

Example: I was VERY happy about some recent news... .  it also implies that I have some very important decisions to make for my son. When he asked me a question, I paused and in his words, I looked "ticked off at him and angry"... .  and I clearly told him that I WAS NEITHER and that he did NOT know what I was feeling if he did not ask me because *this example* proved that he assumed how I felt (projected) rather than ASK me how I was feeling about it.

To answer your original question: I don't think that ANYTHING that we DO and ENJOY causes them to feel jealousy and respond spitefully... .  I think that our happiness is only a trigger to their pain... .  a reminder that they are NOT happy and are frustrated that they "will never be happy" like us... .  this may be a truth to them since they WANT us to feel their pain... .  so they treat us as to make us feel as badly as they do... .  

[stoic83]

I don't necessarily view it as unfortunate, and my goal, on these boards at least, is not to intimidate.  Persuasive writing is how I earn a living, though, and some degree of intimidation can often be leveraged to that end.  I should have avoided collective pronouns in my earlier post - I was speaking for myself, and just conjecturing as to why philosophers might be drawn to a BPD generally.  I didn't wish to accuse you of being a narcissist - I haven't seen anything in your posts that would warrant that.

I was phrasing it as unfortunate, because these extrinsic positive, socially desirable characteristics of yours may be distracting others from appreciating your "essence". You are so conditioned to receive praise for these innate gifts, and you have developed them... .  

I am resentful for being mainly appreciated for any outward manifestation of any innate intelligence, which I never asked for in the first place! I don't want to be a "trophy", valued for my ability to provide, rationalize, persuade... .  etc.

I want to be somebody's old sock, if that makes sense.

Interesting.  I don't derive much right-brain stimulation in my own study of philosophy - save for the fact that I find it enjoyable.

They certainly do intersect; math is logic.

I believe that the creation of new ideas necessitates  both left brain and right brain functionality, being used in a complimentary and  symbiotic fashion. Cutting edge theories on quantum physics, mathematics, and even the intrinsic and extrinsic philosophies (can't even remember the terminology) of literature such as Shakespeare and Greek tragedy... .  Not to mention davinci's golden ratio... .  etc. which constitutes of mathematical structures that represent both logic and beauty simultaneously... .  a truly "emotional" equation:)

Symbolic logic... .  the representation of the emotional and "unpredicatable" chaos of the living world... .  synthesized in to representations consisting of numbers, words, and representations... .  these left-brained representations, of a right-brained consciousness... .  

in any case, if I wanted right brained stimulation I should've majored in sociology I can only imagine how many pwBPD we can find there... .  won't find any in philosophy, I can assure you of this... .  

What hurts is that someone has manipulated me under the guise of appreciating me for possessing them.

I can totally relate to this... .  it really hurts to be idealized for characteristics that you pride yourself on. Remember that it is not these characteristics that make you unique, friend. The driving factor in my rs with my ulfBPD exgf was that although she recognized my positive traits, the focus of her affection was not any of this. It was intrinsic good.

I craved to be valued for just being me... .  this is what the rs with her felt like. She said i just had "it". What was "it"?

It was my naivity , my innocence, my integrity, my ability to love, my ability to reach across social, economic, gender barriers and relate to anybody. That i was encouraging, persuasive, emphatic... .  inspiring to her.

The thing is, she didn't appreciate my uniqueness(although it may have felt like it)... .  she didn't understand/feel my essence... .  the reason that she was with me is probably something much more shallow as I was a source of narcissistic supply, assuaged her abandonment fears, had this "dudley do good" mentality that was intoxicating to a slippery serpent such as her self... .  etc etc.

So while your exwBPD seemed to value you for what you value yourself the most (due to conditioning from N parents, and an N society)... .  my exwBPD seemed to value me for something other than I have experienced.

Any less dysfunctional woman i have been involved with has labeled me and bragged about me... .  etc... .  etc... made me feel like a real tool, like a real object.

In some ways, the rs w exBPD made me feel unique and lovable in a completely new and different way... .  I mean if you are told that you are valuable "for what you do" from a very young age over and over and over... .  then it becomes very hard to see what or who you really are, because you are so conditioned to earn the treat from jumping through the hoop... .  etc... .  etc.

I can only imagine how a really beautiful woman feels... .  only valued for her looks from a very young age. Everyone's always trying to f her. Hmm... .  now I am seeing how I related to my exwBPD. 

Stoic