Is hfBPD a farce?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hey guys,

I am struggling with the concept of hfBPD vs. lfBPD... .  

My exgf was definitely lfBPD... .  couldn't follow through with any commitments... jobs, school, relationships... .  etc. She was always overwhelmed... .  although she was competent and had potential to excel in many areas, she just self-sabotaged and ruined her working relationships... .  

My mother was a writer for AP and president of the PTA. However she tells me she used to bang her head against the wall was tortured, sexually abused, and used to be a mute. She also tells me that she has dealt with stalkers, and that she used to have several boyfriends at a time... .  none of them aware of eachother, but it was the 70's so that's okay.

In any case, I am trying to figure out my attraction to my lfBPD... and what felt so familiar. I mean my mom is a very intelligent and somewhat accomplished woman, whereas my exwBPD couldn't seem to succeed at anything.

I also have a male friend who seems to understand her thinking patterns and who is a womanizing frat boy who is completing an MBA from a top 10 business school. When i mentioned borderline personality disorder... .  it clearly triggers him, or I get a reaction... .  The thing is, he seems fairly narcissitic as well... .  he looks like the male archetype and plays this puppy dog fantasy game with women... .  and likes to keep them around long past their due date for validation, and because he doesn't want them to move on in case he changes his mind.

He is pretty unconscious about all of this... .  but like my exgf is very good looking and women eat up his coy, charming, little boy act pretty easily... .  he calls them "baby seals." He likes the young, naive, innocent ones... .  him and I have had an interesting and colorful friendship throughout the years... .  I've seen him go from trust fund baby addict, to a person with integrity that is a productive member of society, volunteering, and being a good influence on his AA sponsees, and might be PD, but at least he acts with integrity.

Anyways, as I look to my friendships and other relationships... .  I find myself asking why I was attracted to somebody like this. Why this person is so attracted to me? I can feel out a person wBPD very easily. I have met two women wBPD and I felt an instant connection to them and both of them admitted that they had been diagnosed with the disorder. One of them was actually studying psychology at a community college, and going to sex parties in hollywood on the weekends... scary right? She wasn't high functioning... .  but with medication, she could live a less chaotic life.

The other one was studying psychology too... .  but was clearly not medicated... .  she split me black almost immediately after she realized I knew about it.

So clearly, I am attracted to the borderline personality disordered individual because something about it must feel familiar to me on an unconscious level.

If women in my family are merely NPD with borderline traits, would that be enough? Do you guys believe in this distinction between hfBPD and lfBPD... .  or is hfBPD in most cases just NPD?

Stoic

[stoic83]

Hey guys,

I am struggling with the concept of hfBPD vs. lfBPD... .  

My exgf was definitely lfBPD... .  couldn't follow through with any commitments... jobs, school, relationships... .  etc. She was always overwhelmed... .  although she was competent and had potential to excel in many areas, she just self-sabotaged and ruined her working relationships... .  

My mother was a writer for AP and president of the PTA. However she tells me she used to bang her head against the wall was tortured, sexually abused, and used to be a mute. She also tells me that she has dealt with stalkers, and that she used to have several boyfriends at a time... .  none of them aware of eachother, but it was the 70's so that's okay.

In any case, I am trying to figure out my attraction to my lfBPD... and what felt so familiar. I mean my mom is a very intelligent and somewhat accomplished woman, whereas my exwBPD couldn't seem to succeed at anything.

I also have a male friend who seems to understand her thinking patterns and who is a womanizing frat boy who is completing an MBA from a top 10 business school. When i mentioned borderline personality disorder... .  it clearly triggers him, or I get a reaction... .  The thing is, he seems fairly narcissitic as well... .  he looks like the male archetype and plays this puppy dog fantasy game with women... .  and likes to keep them around long past their due date for validation, and because he doesn't want them to move on in case he changes his mind.

He is pretty unconscious about all of this... .  but like my exgf is very good looking and women eat up his coy, charming, little boy act pretty easily... .  he calls them "baby seals." He likes the young, naive, innocent ones... .  him and I have had an interesting and colorful friendship throughout the years... .  I've seen him go from trust fund baby addict, to a person with integrity that is a productive member of society, volunteering, and being a good influence on his AA sponsees, and might be PD, but at least he acts with integrity.

Anyways, as I look to my friendships and other relationships... .  I find myself asking why I was attracted to somebody like this. Why this person is so attracted to me? I can feel out a person wBPD very easily. I have met two women wBPD and I felt an instant connection to them and both of them admitted that they had been diagnosed with the disorder. One of them was actually studying psychology at a community college, and going to sex parties in hollywood on the weekends... scary right? She wasn't high functioning... .  but with medication, she could live a less chaotic life.

The other one was studying psychology too... .  but was clearly not medicated... .  she split me black almost immediately after she realized I knew about it.

So clearly, I am attracted to the borderline personality disordered individual because something about it must feel familiar to me on an unconscious level.

If women in my family are merely NPD with borderline traits, would that be enough? Do you guys believe in this distinction between hfBPD and lfBPD... .  or is hfBPD in most cases just NPD?

Stoic

[GreenMango]

Low functioning is the most extreme cases, or clinical.  The people who suffer with this illness who are low functioning are the ones who's self destructive tendencies make them a very high suicide risk.  From what I've read this is the population that bottoms out and ends up flagging themself for some kind of treatment, whether misdiagnosed treatment or not... .  self-mutilation, depression, anxiety, drug treatment, bipolar etc.  This is the most severe cases.

What people commonly call high functioning are the subclinical.  They have a few of the traits but stable enough to maintain.  Most of the members here have subclinical loved ones.  But don't mistake subclinical for easy.  Having few traits of the disorder can still make for a high conflict/difficult relationship.

By the new classification for the personality disorders "empathy" impairment is one of the criteria.  This is shared among other disorders like NPD, antisocial, etc.  There is a big debate on among clinicians over the classifying and differences... .  what is BPD or NPD differences.  

Sometimes its easier just to look at the pattern of behaviors... .  that is what many pros do because of the difficult nature of diagnosing and treating.  

And looking at why this relationship was okay for you, how you got in it, etc.  All good questions and the path to focusing on making changes.

[stoic83]

Low functioning is the most extreme cases, or clinical.  The people who suffer with this illness who are low functioning are the ones who's self destructive tendencies make them a very high suicide risk.  From what I've read this is the population that bottoms out and ends up flagging themself for some kind of treatment, whether misdiagnosed treatment or not... .  self-mutilation, depression, anxiety, drug treatment, bipolar etc.  This is the most severe cases.

What people commonly call high functioning are the subclinical.  They have a few of the traits but stable enough to maintain.  Most of the members here have subclinical loved ones.  But don't mistake subclinical for easy.  Having few traits of the disorder can still make for a high conflict/difficult relationship.

By the new classification for the personality disorders "empathy" impairment is one of the criteria.  This is shared among other disorders like NPD, antisocial, etc.  There is a big debate on among clinicians over the classifying and differences... .  what is BPD or NPD differences.  

Sometimes its easier just to look at the pattern of behaviors... .  that is what many pros do because of the difficult nature of diagnosing and treating.  

And looking at why this relationship was okay for you, how you got in it, etc.  All good questions and the path to focusing on making changes.

Yeah my exwBPD was low functioning... .  kept bottoming out. I heard that they were the only ones who had a chance of really getting help... .  because it makes their lives unlivable otherwise. I like the new DSM as opposed to the old one... .  it seems like it will be a lot easier to differentiate between pd and traits:)

So is my dysfunction worse than someone who would maintain a rs with a hfBPD? I mean since I knew she was mentally ill... .  and read books and tried to make it happen? Her sister is bipolar...

i mean my exgf was institutionalized but only for her alcoholism. I became aware of this at certain times... .  but could not hold these facts in my consciousness... .  for long as the familiarity of her odd behaviors became endearing to me at some level?

I am just struggling as to why I would be involved with someone who is clinically mentally ill when my family members are less severe cases and can hold down jobs and don't have trouble controlling themselves to such a large extent... .  

i have friends in the area who have been to rehab... .  it is popular here in the OC, . I've never struggled with hard drugs or alcohol... .  but I like smoking weed and cigarettes?

It is hard for me to not look in the mirror and ask what is wrong with me... .  my uncle the psychologist, and only member of my family I speak to... .  tells me it is learned helplessness and just says I was too trusting and perhaps idealizing my exwBPD... .  and not seeing her for who she really was?

Anyways, this is my reason behind searching for this distinction. So most people on here are talking about hfBPD... .  because mine was a cutter(last episode 2.5 years ago), needed cops called on her(by her FOO), alcoholic, violent... .  etc.

So since my exwBPD was so unhealthy, and people of similar levels of mental health are attracted to one another... .  what does that say about my mental health? What does that say about my family's mental health? Does the severity of my exwBPD's illness have anything to say about who I am and what my faults are? I mean am I more codependent since I was aware of the illness and the statistics for recovery... .  and still hung on, hoping things were going to get better?

i wouldn't hurt a fly... .  I'm a little eccentric... but that's about it. Could I have just ended up on the wrong side of the train tracks... .  or was this in my destiny, one way or another?

Stoic

[Maryiscontrary]

Stoic, you hit on a real tender spot there.

I believe a lot of us here on this board have PD or very strong straits. We have very poor cognitive maps of what is "ours" vs. "not ours". So we have a distorted view of what we really can control vs. what we really can't.

OK... .  I have discovered that getting really, really pissed. That is, anger with excessive adrenaline, is the same as raging. OK.

Now the dysfunction occurs when you build up so much energy from being torqued up, that you  "lash out".  This reaction does more damage to relationships than almost anything else.

OK. So you get angry, how do you handle it? Well, if you understand that your own boundaries have been trampled on, then you can see why you get angry.

Now, a PD with a poor sense of self, or boundaries, will just eat crow, put up with it and put in with it until they dysregulate.

A person with a good sense of self will cut the drama off at the nub. A person with a good scence of self knows that there are very few good reasons to yell, destroy things, blame, or hit. So if a healthy person is exposed to this, they get the hell out of dodge, because when a person is treated poorly, that is not her fault.

It is a problem if you put up with it.

So the major issue I see with people on this board is that they were conditioned to put up with a lot of crap. Putting up with crap is stressful and unless you put an end to it, will cause unhealthy coping responses.

I see it as being rather simple. We all here put up with too much crap, did not learn to express our needs articulately, and had poor boundaries.

[stoic83]

Stoic, you hit on a real tender spot there.

I believe a lot of us here on this board have PD or very strong straits. We have very poor cognitive maps of what is "ours" vs. "not ours". So we have a distorted view of what we really can control vs. what we really can't.

OK... .  I have discovered that getting really, really pissed. That is, anger with excessive adrenaline, is the same as raging. OK.

Now the dysfunction occurs when you build up so much energy from being torqued up, that you  "lash out".  This reaction does more damage to relationships than almost anything else.

OK. So you get angry, how do you handle it? Well, if you understand that your own boundaries have been trampled on, then you can see why you get angry.

Now, a PD with a poor sense of self, or boundaries, will just eat crow, put up with it and put in with it until they dysregulate.

A person with a good sense of self will cut the drama off at the nub. A person with a good scence of self knows that there are very few good reasons to yell, destroy things, blame, or hit. So if a healthy person is exposed to this, they get the hell out of dodge, because when a person is treated poorly, that is not her fault.

It is a problem if you put up with it.

So the major issue I see with people on this board is that they were conditioned to put up with a lot of crap. Putting up with crap is stressful and unless you put an end to it, will cause unhealthy coping responses.

I see it as being rather simple. We all here put up with too much crap, did not learn to express our needs articulately, and had poor boundaries.

I am certain I do not have a personality disorder(meeting with t twice a week). What is not certain is who in my immediate family has a personality disorder... .  whether hfBPD is legitimately BPD.

To what degree is "put up with it"? I mean for you, you may have put up with it for 1 month because your tolerance is less than mine... .  does the fact that I recycled with her make me less healthy than the average joe who puts up with this one time?

I guess I had to move in with her so I could see how distorted her thought processes are and how violent and unruly she is in a "family setting". She always managed to create some space while dysregulated... .  when living apart... .  but she couldn't get away from it when with me. As soon as i contacted her sister, she told me to call the cops immediately.

It was a huge sign that her FOO was in on the game to some extent... .  why was there no discussion with her family members? Why did everyone just throw me to the wolves? Her bipolar sister seemed to be covering for her sometimes and in the end told me that we were "terrible for eachother"... .  when i told this to my exwBPD she told me that her sister said this because she knows that "she (my ex) is an ass, and she has to put it on both of us because she is her sister". What was this? "I'm an ass?"

In any case, I don't understand how she could do this to me, and why i didn't see this coming after previous relationships... .  how healthy am I that I was conscious about her mental illness and still tried to continue the rs?

Her conditioned has worsened over the years... .  

This is the second time she was crying and said... .  "I'm an ass" with no further explanation.

In the end I just want to know and be self aware as to what is wrong with me that I kept hoping for her to get better, though I knew that she was ill and might get worse... .  doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results... .  is that insanity? It's easy for me to remove emotion from the equation right now... .  because this last time was the grand finale, but I truly loved this sick person... .  does that make me equally as sick?

I mean was I temporarily insane to maintain this rs in spite of all the facts?


Stoic

[susanleona]

My opinion is that human nature is to keep having hope.  It is a natural thing.  We do not want to believe that things won't straighten out, work out, and it is always a revelation when that belief gets shattered.

[gina louise]

stoic83,

my guess is that due to your FOO and your mom's dysfunctions, people with PD's are accepted as normal, even if subconsciously- by you.

Look at you, not your ex's (Pd or not, Lf or Hf or whatever ) if you really want to figure this out.

YOU were the reason YOU stayed past the r/s expiration date. and you are all you can work on.



all the best,

GL

[stoic83]

This is about me, GL!

I am trying to figure out what kept me in the rs for so long... .  and my familiarity with her behaviors in my FOO is the culprit!

I agree that labeling isn't going to help me reach acceptance... .  but I am still trying to figure out what felt "right" about this relationship.

My T has treated people like her... .  and says that there is no right way to act... .  all you can do is the best you can do. These people are more than likely to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over.

Looking at BPD traits in my FOO is helping me to understand why I accepted behaviors that other people would not.

I've been trying to figure out what's wrong with me my entire life... .  only to find out that the people who were telling me that there is something wrong with me (my nBPD mom and my ? dad) actually have things that are wrong with them. (my uncle the psychologist tells me).

Also my mom called my uncle a pedophile when i was a kid... .  it's because she's crazy and didn't want my Uncle to help me

So i'm working through it... .  projecting a bit. I find myself being overly defensive on here with people trying to help me! Sounds codependent... .  

*crabby half hug*

i agree 100%... .  but next time can you make the YOUs lower case... .  ouch!

The reason i stayed past the expiration date is :

a) familiar to manipulative and sadistic women.

b) learned helplessness

c) seek out criticism, because i feel it's what i deserve.

d) try to treat her, like i should be treating myself

e) low self-esteem

f) trying to please someone that is insatiable.

Stoic

[gina louise]

stoic83,

my apologies,

in your initial post in this thread I read a lot of "she did xyz... .  " and "her behavior was... .  "

and in the end we can only guess at what's in someone else's mind or behavior.

you seemed to be comparing/analyzing your ex's behaviors and "chasing her around in your head" to coin a phrase. I know that helps in normal r/s- to tidy up the ending and give closure- but with a PD partner we are dealing with erratic and irrational behaviors.

there's no sense trying to make any sense of it.

trying to do so will frustrate the $hit outta you!

none of us eventually "liked" what we became after being with our Pd people... .  but it is what it is.

or was.

that's why I wanted to make you look at you, more so than any SO. I didn't mean to offend.

you can be a crabby a$$.       I get it.

GL

[stoic83]

stoic83,

my apologies,

in your initial post in this thread I read a lot of "she did xyz... .  " and "her behavior was... .  "

and in the end we can only guess at what's in someone else's mind or behavior.

you seemed to be comparing/analyzing your ex's behaviors and *chasing her around in your head* to coin a phrase. I know that helps in normal r/s- to tidy up the ending and give closure- but with a PD partner we are dealing with erratic and irrational behaviors.

there's no sense trying to make any sense of it.

trying to do so will frustrate the $hit outta you!

none of us eventually *liked* what we became after being with our Pd people... .  but it is what it is.

or was.

that's why I wanted to make you look at you, more so than any SO. I didn't mean to offend.

you can be a crabby a$$.       I get it.

GL

Hey a true friend would offend me if they thought it would help... .  you aren't a people pleaser and I respect that!

i agree that i need to snap out of analyzing her behaviors... .  but trying to analyze my FOO and the connection to my exwBPD seems like it has merit? Kind of wise-mind it... .  working out this left mind stuff on here... .  got a lot of work to do on my emotions:)

-Less Crabby 3/4 hug-

Stoic83

[gina louise]

stoic83,

perfectly OK   

it's a process.

it's kinda like wiping dog poop off your shoe. you wipe and wipe and scuff on the grass... .  and dammit... .  there's still something there!

getting free, it's like that.

It's OK. it gets better. the shoes do get cleaner!   

GL