What helps them understand...

[Mike76]

I am probably leaving, but I need to hear from the staying folks?

It what point during therapy or counseling did your BPD understand there was something wrong... .  

I will give my situation for clarification, but you can change to yours... .  (Also we are both in individual counseling\ therapy along with marriage counseling).

My uBPDw has physically assaulted me... .  she justifies and stats it is my fault it happened.  She even does this in-front of our marriage counselor.   For the most part,  the only thing I talk about is marriage counseling this dynamic needs to change.  My wife says well it is my fault, the marriage counselor says she needs to take ownership for this problem. 

My wife says it often happens because I do not support her in-front of others... .  examples,  my aunt purchased the wrong sized shirt for me and I did not back up my wife telling my aunt she screwed up... .  or my wife's mom lost 60 pounds after surgery(my wife hates her mom), I still congratulated her mom and did not follow my wife's instruction stating she is still fat.

So now that you have a few of so called facts... .  at what point did your uBPD or BPD realize they not others need to change?

Again I am about ready to leaving, and I should probably be posting to leaving overall, but even their already gave up.  Answers or advise on this post is about my last ditch effort.

I would really prefer to hear only from the non's that have been staying for 5-10 years and not the people that are just recently learning for BPD 1-2 years.   

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[briefcase]

Everyone's situation is a little different.  Not all of our spouses/partners have come to "understand" that they need to make some changes.  Some are in counselling.  Some are not.  We mostly work on ourselves here, and our own issues.  We all hope that our spouses will make some changes in themselves, and many do, whether in counselling or not.  Others don't.  Depending on our own particular boundaries, it may or may not matter to members on the staying board if their partner is working on him or herself. 

My wife has made some changes in herself, but not through any therapy or counselling. 

[Somewhere]

Let me see if I/we fit the profile of your question?

Been together about 13 years, I started figuring out the Borderline aspects about 3 to 4 years ago -- prior I just noticed she had longish wacky episodes, but we met in therapy, so I did not figure things should be different.

Recall it as being 3 to 4 years ago, as I wrote a song about it and called it "Life Ain't Easy With a Borderline."  I write songs about my/our stuff because I get Peanut Butter mouth trying to speak it, and noticed that Mel Tillis would stutter when talking, but could sing clearly.

Anyway.  Your question.  At what point  did she/he/they understand that something was wrong -- at least as far as BPD . . .  Maybe, just maybe . . . Today.  This morning.  About a half-hour ago.  She was getting ready to head out to her weekly out-patient Eating Group (back from Re-hab about 60 days now), and she was sitting at the table reading on brain chemistry, seratonin, dopamine, and relationships to . . . .  BPD, Eating Disorders, and the rest.  

Started a conversation -- mostly a Why Not one -- as in Why It Could Not Likely be . . .  BUT progress ALWAYS starts with Denial.  Progress.

Back to you and what you are describing, Mike -- Physical Assaults are a NO GO with us.  As this point, if so, I would call the cops on her.  The Rages (just picked those up the last three years or so) -- thanks to Randi's book, and others, we are not putting up with those now, either.

As far as how you treat the Aunt . . . I have also CHOSEN -- my choice, not the control freak BPD's choice -- MY CHOICE -- to be nice to folks even when they are part of the fantasy Evil de jour of the Drama Triangle.  Bumps me out of Hero/Rescue role, but I quit that job, as well.  Now I sit in the audience for the Drama Plays, and only get the projectors placed on me, which I tend to ignore.

Dunno about the three way split this website uses -- stay/dunno/go.  Sorry but that is not how I see the world.  If not for the kids, I may have already kicked her to the curb when she came back wacked out and half-baked from rehab.  

But then again, she is my little buddy.  Everyone can have rough times.  Sometimes when people are at their most unlovable, is when they need love the most.  Re-hab took her main coping mechanism away -- Eating Disorder -- and really left her with nothing in its place.

Dunno if that answered anything you were wondering, but just how things look from this side of the keyboard.

Are you in any program to help YOU?

[yeeter]

My wife has made some changes in herself, but not through any therapy or counselling.  

This has been the same for me.  And trying to get her to recognize certain things was just invalidating and destructive to the dynamics.  I tried 8/9 different MC's and she never took ownership for anything.  I dropped the MC work since it was actually doing more damage than good.

So I went forward assuming that some things are likely never going to change, and I needed to be ok with that (not ok per se, but able to cope/manage via some other means)

Physical assault - and taking no responsibility for it - is a deal breaker for me.  Imagine what the advice would be if the gender roles reversed?  I think there is far more abuse by women on men than most people realize - and its just as destructive and unacceptable as with the genders reversed.

ACTIONS speak louder than words - you arent even able to get the words from her.  Sorry, its not looking too likely from here... .  

[waverider]

What I found, and heard echoed here, is that sometimes they may gain an insight. This may shock them at first, then while you are jumping up and down with relief, as they become overwhelmed with self blame they start to slowly twist it around to something is wrong with US, which eventually morphs back into YOUR fault/somebody else's fault victim mode. Back to square one.

Many will accept they have "problems" but will still say that in itself is still somebody else's fault. Probably why fingers are often overly pointed at the parents, as that is the first place the mud is slung, whether there is any justification or not

Some may hold that clarity and successfully make it though therapy but most will default as per above. That is what makes life with a pwBPD so frustrating, the constant recycling of blame and dramas. Rarely does anything stay "fixed". Hence the only fixing you can do is fix how YOU learn to live around it.

[poiuy]

My heart goes out for you , you have my shoulder . I'm in it for more then 8 yrs.  and in the last few years my spouse got 2  Dr.'s  opinions . Both were for personalty disorder

and ADD. There are ups and downs or the flip side and flop side . Mindfulness  and refocusing help me a lot.

[jaird]

I am probably leaving, but I need to hear from the staying folks?

It what point during therapy or counseling did your BPD understand there was something wrong... .  

I will give my situation for clarification, but you can change to yours... .  (Also we are both in individual counseling\ therapy along with marriage counseling).

My uBPDw has physically assaulted me... .  she justifies and stats it is my fault it happened.  She even does this in-front of our marriage counselor.   For the most part,  the only thing I talk about is marriage counseling this dynamic needs to change.  My wife says well it is my fault, the marriage counselor says she needs to take ownership for this problem. 

My wife says it often happens because I do not support her in-front of others... .  examples,  my aunt purchased the wrong sized shirt for me and I did not back up my wife telling my aunt she screwed up... .  or my wife's mom lost 60 pounds after surgery(my wife hates her mom), I still congratulated her mom and did not follow my wife's instruction stating she is still fat.

So now that you have a few of so called facts... .  at what point did your uBPD or BPD realize they not others need to change?

Again I am about ready to leaving, and I should probably be posting to leaving overall, but even their already gave up.  Answers or advise on this post is about my last ditch effort.

I would really prefer to hear only from the non's that have been staying for 5-10 years and not the people that are just recently learning for BPD 1-2 years.   

Just as an observer, and not in your situation-I was under the understanding that no one should stay in a physically abusive relationship.

You may feel that she can't really hurt you, is just acting out, isn't strong enough, or whatever. But what if you retaliate, even a little bit, and she calls the police?

Knowing how BPDs in general are very loose with facts, and seem to able to justify everything they do, you could possibly be the one leaving in handcuffs.

[Mike76]

As always thank you to everyone that responded... .   

It has been amazing to be to see the work some of you have put into your marriages\ relationships and something you should all be proud of.  Not that I am personalty disorders are the most destructive thing, I feel if it ranks pretty high.  If people wound spend half the work you have put in this world would be a better place.   People throw away marriages like paper plates, it give my hope to see that people can make it work.

The reason why I asked for people that have been in for a number of years was just to remind me of the above statement I made.  People come and go from this staying board so fast, but it is try great to so some of you have found ways to make it work.

I can see why people say stay away from marriage counseling it does seem very damaging. At the same time it has brought clarity to me and my situation.  I has been destructive to my marriage but has help me personally

I recently talked to my my personal counselor  and has the marriage counselor in-front of my wife about the following  before entering marriage I looked at possible issues like a pie chart percentage. Domestic violence was no where to be found, something that never crossed my mind.  It is a hard pill to shallow.

We have been marriage for almost 5 years now... .  and the other night she told be you said in counseling "you said you wish to have a apology for the abuse.   I can give fake one, those problems happened because you screwed up"... .      For 4-5 sessions in marriage therapy she says in-front of us both and blames be for it.

If my wife said... .  this is a issues and I will work on it... .  I would feel differently.  I do not feel like she is even close to it. 

One of you some if roles were reversed and I was hitting my wife... .  I think of this daily now... .    I do fear some-days wow if police show up something things will change in a hurry.   I am so hurt my all the domestic violence webiste... .  it is always man vs woman... .  they almost never say   woman and man... .     that is very painful for me.

I and the marriage T... .  did tell me wife if it happens again its a dealbreaker... .  but I am now realizing just in the last week or so... .  I think the deal is already broken.

[jaird]

As always thank you to everyone that responded... .   

It has been amazing to be to see the work some of you have put into your marriages\ relationships and something you should all be proud of.  Not that I am personalty disorders are the most destructive thing, I feel if it ranks pretty high.  If people wound spend half the work you have put in this world would be a better place.   People throw away marriages like paper plates, it give my hope to see that people can make it work.

The reason why I asked for people that have been in for a number of years was just to remind me of the above statement I made.  People come and go from this staying board so fast, but it is try great to so some of you have found ways to make it work.

I can see why people say stay away from marriage counseling it does seem very damaging. At the same time it has brought clarity to me and my situation.  I has been destructive to my marriage but has help me personally

I recently talked to my my personal counselor  and has the marriage counselor in-front of my wife about the following  before entering marriage I looked at possible issues like a pie chart percentage. Domestic violence was no where to be found, something that never crossed my mind.  It is a hard pill to shallow.

We have been marriage for almost 5 years now... .  and the other night she told be you said in counseling "you said you wish to have a apology for the abuse.   I can give fake one, those problems happened because you screwed up"... .      For 4-5 sessions in marriage therapy she says in-front of us both and blames be for it.

If my wife said... .  this is a issues and I will work on it... .  I would feel differently.  I do not feel like she is even close to it. 

One of you some if roles were reversed and I was hitting my wife... .  I think of this daily now... .    I do fear some-days wow if police show up something things will change in a hurry.   I am so hurt my all the domestic violence webiste... .  it is always man vs woman... .  they almost never say   woman and man... .     that is very painful for me.

I and the marriage T... .  did tell me wife if it happens again its a dealbreaker... .  but I am now realizing just in the last week or so... .  I think the deal is already broken.

Let me tell you something, as a former cop, if she cries, if she calls 911, if she shows the cops a bruise or claims to hurt or anything along those lines, you're probably going.

Think about having an arrest record for domestic violence, and how that may affect you anytime you go for a job or some type of professional license.

[Mike76]

Let me tell you something, as a former cop, if she cries, if she calls 911, if she shows the cops a bruise or claims to hurt or anything along those lines, you're probably going.

Think about having an arrest record for domestic violence, and how that may affect you anytime you go for a job or some type of professional license.

Thanks for the info... .  I have always told myself I have given her many chances... .  but I am only getting one...

I screw up once  I will pay for it forever... .  

[jaird]

Let me tell you something, as a former cop, if she cries, if she calls 911, if she shows the cops a bruise or claims to hurt or anything along those lines, you're probably going.

Think about having an arrest record for domestic violence, and how that may affect you anytime you go for a job or some type of professional license.

Thanks for the info... .  I have always told myself I have given her many chances... .  but I am only getting one...

The man usually does. I don't mean to sound sexist, it can work both ways, but if she can display any type of injury, or even claim substantial pain, and she says you caused it, you will probably be arrested. Depending on where you live, you may even be arrested if she says she does NOT want you arrested. Many police departments, especially in large cities, have a zero tolerance policy and will leave it up to the DA to drop the charges. Which may mean no record, but it may also mean a day or two in jail.

I would think the job market is tough enough these days. I don't know how old you are, or if you will ever be looking for a job, or some kind of license, or maybe even going to a university, and have to answer yes to any type of domestic violence question, or risk lying and being caught lying.

Domestic violence awareness is a huge these days. Protect yourself, and your children if you have any.

[yeeter]

Its worse than this even.  Read some of the stories here.  If she is truly unstable, you dont even have to do anything.  She will create false allegations and these days allegations are the same thing as guilt when in comes to DV.

With just the allegations, she will be given support from numerous organizations and credibility in the courts, who will come after you.  It is in no way a fair system.  Unless she openly displays instability in front of a judge then you are screwed.

Once you have a record you cant get a job.  You will be ostracized in your community.  If you have kids there will be 'proof' that you are an evil man.

AND - she will feel 'you deserve it all' - because you did something wrong... .  (which you know already is how she feels and you know its not reflective of reality).

Definitely protect yourself.

(I used to think this is all over dramatic, but in more recent years I have learned it isnt all that uncommon)

[Mike76]

Thanks all for you suggestions... .  

Some-days I wish the day she just hit me I would have called the police, but what would that prove in the wrong this really nothing.

The only person(s) that I would bet my wife have shared she has physically assaulted me would be her counselor of our marriage consular.   I am using married counseling more for my own self healing than saving my marriage, its the only place in-front of my wife I can speak my mind.

I felt good at the last session, I was talking about the on time it happened in the past... .  I was speaking and looking at the counselor and not my wife. My wife interpreted me and said, "it did not really happen that way." The counselor looked at my wife and said "Are you calling him a liar?",   my wife said "well no I am not, I just no that remember all the details".   

I although I have shared with some close to me,  it has started to help with the healing process to be able to speak in-front of my wife about the way I feel. I do not wish to just make your out as the bad-girl but... .  

[Cloudy Days]

I have been married for 7 years and I find that my husband has many moments of Clarity. He can realize that something is wrong with him but like others have said, usually it doesn't last long. His mind has a way of getting ahold of the good thoughts and twisting them to make everything not his fault. He has accepted that he is a Borderline, also Bipolar and PTSD. He is going to therapy but the progress comes and goes. Just yesterday he had therapy and he became unbearable to be around afterwards. We used to do marriage councenling and the entire time we did it, He would basically just blame me for everything in our marriage. My main complaint would be that I want him to stop accusing me of cheating on him. Well, his response is, I have to figure out how to make him trust me. He places the work on me every time. It's not him that needed to change he believes I'm the one that needed to change. Needless to say we stopped marriage counceling. So far the therpay he is doing now has helped more than anything else he has done but he still blames everything on everyone else. My husband also gets very angry if I don't support his veiw in front of other people. He often uses the phrase "your never/not there for me"

[Foreverhopefull]

Back in 2008, dBPDh was seeing his psychiatrist and psychologist, but denied that he had a problem... .  everybody else did. So he quit therapy, meds and everything else. He even changed family doctor twice because even they were nuts.

Fast forward to 2011, he falls lower than the end of the line, tells me it can't be everyone's fault... .  he has to be sick to feel like he does all the time. Get to see a 3rd family doctor, she gives him the time he needs to explain how he feels, she ask if he agrees to see a psychologist (he said yes if he could have the same one as 2008) and a psychiatrist (again Ok if it's the same one... .  even if he doesn't like him).

He's been in intense therapy since January 2011, and he know "understand" that some of the things he said was everybody's fault was not noticing that we were reacting to his moods or reactions to things. He still gets those moments where it's everybody but him, but they are less frequent.

It takes a very long time to "understand".

[jaird]

Its worse than this even.  Read some of the stories here.  If she is truly unstable, you dont even have to do anything.  She will create false allegations and these days allegations are the same thing as guilt when in comes to DV.

With just the allegations, she will be given support from numerous organizations and credibility in the courts, who will come after you.  It is in no way a fair system.  Unless she openly displays instability in front of a judge then you are screwed.

Once you have a record you cant get a job.  You will be ostracized in your community.  If you have kids there will be 'proof' that you are an evil man.

AND - she will feel 'you deserve it all' - because you did something wrong... .  (which you know already is how she feels and you know its not reflective of reality).

Definitely protect yourself.

(I used to think this is all over dramatic, but in more recent years I have learned it isnt all that uncommon)

You are correct, it is not uncommon at all. Any police officer who worked patrol saw this. At the time, I had never heard of BPD, nor did I know anything about these kinds of personality disorders. What we did see was that, again it was usually the woman, would invite the man over to spend the night and maybe even make dinner for him when she already had an order of protection against him. The next morning she would call 911 and say that he violated the order by coming to her house. The poor guy (maybe not such a poor schmuck, maybe just a schmuck) would usually be in his underwear or something when we arrived.

It got so bad the the district attorneys in NY instituted a policy of arresting BOTH the people if the order was violated this way-she for having violated by inviting him over and letting him in, and he for having violated it by going to see her.

Again, at the the time myself and my coworkers just thought of these incidents as crazy women and guys who should know better. Since meeting my ex, I now see it as possibly BPD related abuse.

[Grey Kitty]

My take on your situation:

1. For me, DV is not negotiable. It doesn't matter whose "fault" it is. She hit you, and that isn't acceptable. Tell her that if it happens again, you will dial 9-1-1, and you will leave. And yes, the (legal) situation is stacked against you as a man, so be very careful.

As a friend of mine who was in two long abusive marriages told me. Abuse doesn't tend to stay at the level it is at. It either trends toward escalating or going away. If it has been escalating, i.e. going from verbal to physical, it will likely continue to escalate unless something else changes. (with you both seeing therapists there is more hope for improvement instead)

2. Q:at what point did your uBPD or BPD realize they not others need to change?

She was probably more aware of her own need to change than many I've read about here from the beginning. But I think she started getting it when I stopped letting her use me as an emotional punching bag and tell me that all her problems and bad feelings were my fault.

I wouldn't stick around and listen to it, I wouldn't believe it, I wouldn't agree with her that it was my fault, etc., etc. I also acknowledge that I couldn't stop her from thinking that things were my fault. In fact I couldn't even stop her from saying it, but the satisfaction was a lot less for her if I didn't hear it and react to it.

She has figured out that she has codependency issues to deal. Did some Al-Anon years ago do to her family history. This has been an ongoing process with her... .  it seemed to come more after some other breakthroughs.