Need some perspective please

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Hi Everyone,

I have a woman friend who I strongly suspect has BPD, or at least traits.  She is quite a bit younger than me, but we have become friends through mutual jobs/interests.  I started a r/s with pwBPD not long after we became friends, and I saw so many similarities in their behavior, but also many differences in how they handled things.  She was rather harsh in her judgement of pwBPD, without ever having met him, but she was often right about things even though I didn't want to hear it.

Anyway, yesterday she spontaneously showed up at my place in the evening, drunk. (she has never done that before) She was in the neighborhood and had been drinking with some friends.  She wanted to take me out to eat, but I was practically in my jammies, speaking on skype with a family member, and had no desire to go out in the sleeting cold weather for dinner.  So I said no thank you, another time with pleasure, invited her in, got off skype, made some tea for us, etc.

That's when things kind of went wonky.  She wasn't happy with my "no," and kept trying to get me to change my answer, which is something I really don't like and resist whenever it happens.  Although I did take some time to consider going with her, ultimately I just didn't want to, so I said so again.  At one point she was in my face, telling me things like "You need to let go, be spontaneous! You are too controlled/controlling" etc.  She has said that to me before.  I love spontaneity, but didn't want it last night     Anyway she proceeds to talk to me about how controlled and rigid I am, that she feels she can't be herself around me, etc.  (We usually meet at my place because she lives further out and sometimes we meet out for tea or a meal, etc. - but we don't go out shopping or drinking, or stuff like that.  She does that with her younger friends)

I listened to her and told her that I understood what she was saying, that I am controlled in a way, it's a kind of protection, but that it's about me and what I need in the moment and not about getting someone to do what they don't want to do.  At one point I needed to tell her to get out of my face and sit down (she was literally in my face doing her "tough love" thing, basically telling me how I should be and what I should do, loudly).  Did I mention that she was really drunk?  I told her that my dad was an alcoholic and that trying to have a meaningful conversation with him while he was drunk (yes, I tried) was very painful for me. So, I didn't want to do it with her.  She then got upset asking "does everything have to be so serious?" but she was the one telling me that I was screwed up and not living my life right, etc... .  well, anyway, you get the picture.  She said she wanted to be more honest and didn't care if she offended people, including her close friends.  In other words, if she can't do that, and be a btch sometimes,  then I don't accept her as she is.  I understand the tough love stuff, and calling people out if you have to, but it's not really my style.  I tend to have a softer approach, but understand that she prefers a harsh approach.

Later she cried because I made the mistake of telling her that if she wanted to to the "honesty" thing by getting in my face and calling me on my ___, that is fine, but that I may not feel good hanging out with her.  I know that was the wrong thing to say, and I wish I hadn't because as drunk as she was she picked up on that right away and started crying saying, "I can't be 100% myself with you because it'll be too much and you'll leave me."  I felt bad, as it must have sounded like a threat to her and I told her that it wouldn't happen and that I accept her 100% and love her as she is (this "new" her is someone I haven't been exposed to personally until last night).

She also went into a long recital of how what happened to her as a child (sexual abuse) was "not okay."  She kept repeating it, and I listened and agreed.  Later, she wanted me to deal with my sexual abuse issues right there, with her, on the spot.  She has tried that before, even though I told her I don't want to go there and that that is something for my therapist and I to work on.  She seemed to equate my boundaries with a direct rejection of her.

I listened for a long time, spoke to her compassionately, explained that I felt some boundary busting going on, etc.  She understood and it really wasn't a hateful scene at all.  She actually heard some things that I said, and I agreed with many of the negative things she said about me - she recited my fears about myself back to me and it shook me up.  I also heard some negative feelings she had about our friendship and I validated her and thanked her for sharing it with me.  I was genuinely grateful.

I think an important thing is that she wanted me to acknowledge and feel that I was as much "messed up" as she is.  She just wants to be 100% her "fu**ed up" self and wants to be accepted and loved. 

I am all for that, we all need to be loved just as we are.  But I don't feel she has the right to spew her stuff at me and tell me how to live my life unless and until she's got it all together herself, and I ask for her advice (which I have many times).

The thing is, I DO control my "access" with her because she over stays, or over shares, or tries to get me to be intimately vulnerable with her when I don't want to.  And yes, I have trouble letting go and trusting, esp. after my r/s with pwBPD.  I agree with so much of what she said, but what am I supposed to do about it?  She seemed to want me to just snap out of it.  I don't know how, I'm just trying to learn.

Was I out of my mind talking about this deep stuff with her when she was drunk? (For the record, we always have deep spiritual and psychological discussions and are both interested in healing trauma)  Should I have shown her the door when she was in my face? She has never gotten in my face or spoken to me the way she did last night.  It all started because I didn't want to go to dinner.   She eventually left, hugging me and telling me she loved me and I texted to make sure she got home okay, which she did.  I don't feel angry at her, I understand a lot more since  being on this site and having had the r/s with pwBPD.  But that did such a number on me, I'm not sure if I can do this.

How could I have handled it better?  I'm so confused and feel like I'm much more messed up than I thought.  My friend is an amazing woman and she really wants to be there for me, but I'm afraid to let her in because I have experienced her instability and boundary busting first hand, and am still recovering from my romantic r/s with pwBPD.

I'm sorry this is so long and probably disorganized.  Thanks for reading 

[heartandwhole]

Hi Everyone,

I have a woman friend who I strongly suspect has BPD, or at least traits.  She is quite a bit younger than me, but we have become friends through mutual jobs/interests.  I started a r/s with pwBPD not long after we became friends, and I saw so many similarities in their behavior, but also many differences in how they handled things.  She was rather harsh in her judgement of pwBPD, without ever having met him, but she was often right about things even though I didn't want to hear it.

Anyway, yesterday she spontaneously showed up at my place in the evening, drunk. (she has never done that before) She was in the neighborhood and had been drinking with some friends.  She wanted to take me out to eat, but I was practically in my jammies, speaking on skype with a family member, and had no desire to go out in the sleeting cold weather for dinner.  So I said no thank you, another time with pleasure, invited her in, got off skype, made some tea for us, etc.

That's when things kind of went wonky.  She wasn't happy with my "no," and kept trying to get me to change my answer, which is something I really don't like and resist whenever it happens.  Although I did take some time to consider going with her, ultimately I just didn't want to, so I said so again.  At one point she was in my face, telling me things like "You need to let go, be spontaneous! You are too controlled/controlling" etc.  She has said that to me before.  I love spontaneity, but didn't want it last night     Anyway she proceeds to talk to me about how controlled and rigid I am, that she feels she can't be herself around me, etc.  (We usually meet at my place because she lives further out and sometimes we meet out for tea or a meal, etc. - but we don't go out shopping or drinking, or stuff like that.  She does that with her younger friends)

I listened to her and told her that I understood what she was saying, that I am controlled in a way, it's a kind of protection, but that it's about me and what I need in the moment and not about getting someone to do what they don't want to do.  At one point I needed to tell her to get out of my face and sit down (she was literally in my face doing her "tough love" thing, basically telling me how I should be and what I should do, loudly).  Did I mention that she was really drunk?  I told her that my dad was an alcoholic and that trying to have a meaningful conversation with him while he was drunk (yes, I tried) was very painful for me. So, I didn't want to do it with her.  She then got upset asking "does everything have to be so serious?" but she was the one telling me that I was screwed up and not living my life right, etc... .  well, anyway, you get the picture.  She said she wanted to be more honest and didn't care if she offended people, including her close friends.  In other words, if she can't do that, and be a btch sometimes,  then I don't accept her as she is.  I understand the tough love stuff, and calling people out if you have to, but it's not really my style.  I tend to have a softer approach, but understand that she prefers a harsh approach.

Later she cried because I made the mistake of telling her that if she wanted to to the "honesty" thing by getting in my face and calling me on my ___, that is fine, but that I may not feel good hanging out with her.  I know that was the wrong thing to say, and I wish I hadn't because as drunk as she was she picked up on that right away and started crying saying, "I can't be 100% myself with you because it'll be too much and you'll leave me."  I felt bad, as it must have sounded like a threat to her and I told her that it wouldn't happen and that I accept her 100% and love her as she is (this "new" her is someone I haven't been exposed to personally until last night).

She also went into a long recital of how what happened to her as a child (sexual abuse) was "not okay."  She kept repeating it, and I listened and agreed.  Later, she wanted me to deal with my sexual abuse issues right there, with her, on the spot.  She has tried that before, even though I told her I don't want to go there and that that is something for my therapist and I to work on.  She seemed to equate my boundaries with a direct rejection of her.

I listened for a long time, spoke to her compassionately, explained that I felt some boundary busting going on, etc.  She understood and it really wasn't a hateful scene at all.  She actually heard some things that I said, and I agreed with many of the negative things she said about me - she recited my fears about myself back to me and it shook me up.  I also heard some negative feelings she had about our friendship and I validated her and thanked her for sharing it with me.  I was genuinely grateful.

I think an important thing is that she wanted me to acknowledge and feel that I was as much "messed up" as she is.  She just wants to be 100% her "fu**ed up" self and wants to be accepted and loved. 

I am all for that, we all need to be loved just as we are.  But I don't feel she has the right to spew her stuff at me and tell me how to live my life unless and until she's got it all together herself, and I ask for her advice (which I have many times).

The thing is, I DO control my "access" with her because she over stays, or over shares, or tries to get me to be intimately vulnerable with her when I don't want to.  And yes, I have trouble letting go and trusting, esp. after my r/s with pwBPD.  I agree with so much of what she said, but what am I supposed to do about it?  She seemed to want me to just snap out of it.  I don't know how, I'm just trying to learn.

Was I out of my mind talking about this deep stuff with her when she was drunk? (For the record, we always have deep spiritual and psychological discussions and are both interested in healing trauma)  Should I have shown her the door when she was in my face? She has never gotten in my face or spoken to me the way she did last night.  It all started because I didn't want to go to dinner.   She eventually left, hugging me and telling me she loved me and I texted to make sure she got home okay, which she did.  I don't feel angry at her, I understand a lot more since  being on this site and having had the r/s with pwBPD.  But that did such a number on me, I'm not sure if I can do this.

How could I have handled it better?  I'm so confused and feel like I'm much more messed up than I thought.  My friend is an amazing woman and she really wants to be there for me, but I'm afraid to let her in because I have experienced her instability and boundary busting first hand, and am still recovering from my romantic r/s with pwBPD.

I'm sorry this is so long and probably disorganized.  Thanks for reading 

[Whatwasthat]

Hi Heartandwhole 

I'm sorry you had such a confusing and - by the sounds of it - stressful - evening.

Was I out of my mind talking about this deep stuff with her when she was drunk?

I wouldn't say you were out of your mind but you did say elsewhere that you'd mentioned to your friend that it's very difficult to talk about anything with someone who's drunk and I'd entirely agree with that. It just isn't going to lead anywhere that makes a great deal of sense or helps anyone much.

Your friend seems to be someone who can offer a great deal to you - someone who gives a perspective that you value and - seemingly - helps you realise where your boundaries are. But when she's drunk I really wouldn't take too much notice of what gets said. If something similar happens again I'd be much quicker to help her get home rather than engaging in any kind of  conversation.

[P.F.Change]

As I was reading your story, these are the questions that occurred to me:

• What made you decide to stop what you were doing and invite a drunk pwBPD with a history of overstaying her welcome into your home? It sounds like you were relaxing and enjoying your evening up until then.
  
  
• Why do you need to explain yourself to her? Can you have boundaries that she doesn't understand?
  
  
• What if she thinks you are a mean awful person? What if someone doesn't like you? How do you feel? Does that change who you are or how you see yourself?
  
  
• Does sharing an interest in healing trauma mean it is your job to heal her trauma, or that she should be trying to heal yours?
  
  
  It sounds like you do have some healthy boundaries in place, such as saving discussing your trauma for your therapist. That kind of boundary will protect you. It's probably not a good idea to be vulnerable with unstable  people. If you want to practice opening up, pick trustworthy people. It doesn't mean something's wrong with you or that you're overreacting when you don't want to share with someone who won't respect your boundaries. This "friend" does not sound very safe in that regard. Your gut is telling you this--listen.
  
  It sounds like she expects enmeshment with you and thinks you should want exactly what she does. She thinks you should be more spontaneous because she wants you to be ready to jump whenever she needs you to manage her mood. There is nothing wrong with having boundaries or routines or being unavailable for spontaneous drop-in visits. And if she doesn't like hearing no, that's up to her and her therapist to figure out. Your job is to say what you mean and mean what you say... .  No is a complete sentence.
  
  You ask what you might have done better... .  what do you think? If she were to show up and do the same thing tonight, what would you want to do differently?
  
  Wishing you peace,
  
  PF
  
  
  
  

[heartandwhole]

WWT, the way you worded your reply felt so very good to take in, thank you for your input.  I agree (and knew better) that trying to reason with a drunk person is fruitless, I guess I wanted someone to confirm that for me - because I would start to rationalize, "but she was really coherent and telling me these were her honest feelings... .  blah, blah, blah."  My mother used to say that my dad was the most honest when he was drunk.  Ugh.

P.F. Change, thank you so much for asking me those questions.  You make excellent points and I agree with you.  I am learning about boundaries - crash course this past year! - and I really appreciate the feedback.  I'm going to answer the questions as a way to help myself understand my motivations.

1) It's funny, when my friend was being a little offensive, I told her that I could have closed the door in her face, under certain circumstances (like if I were very ill, or speaking to a friend whose parent had died, or something like that).  Her reaction was very negative, she was shocked, thought that I shouldn't go through things alone all the time, that I should let her go through it with me.  I let her in because she's my friend and I was happy to see her before I knew what state she was in or what was about to happen.  As soon as I realized she was drunk, my alarm bells went up and I thought I had better handle the situation.     

2) I guess I explained my boundaries (with minimal defensiveness) because I felt I owed that to her, she is my friend and I care about her.  Yes, I do have boundaries she doesn't understand and that is okay, I stood firm and she eventually accepted it - but it took a long time.  In general I think that when someone says no, and the other person tries to change that to a yes, it is a form of manipulation and disrespect.

3) I am okay with losing her as a friend, even though I cherish her friendship.  There are things that she doesn't like about me and I don't feel I need to change to suit her or anyone else.  With friends I am much firmer with boundaries than in romantic relationships.  If someone doesn't like me, I don't have a problem with it.  If someone I love deeply and have really opened my heart to is disappointed in me, or judges me harshly, it hurts a lot and I usually try to "fix it" by giving them what they want. 

4)No, it is absolutely not my job to heal her trauma and she doesn't ask that of me and I don't try.  She does try to help me with mine, which I rebuff because it's inappropriate and I don't want to open myself to that extent with her anyway. 


I like your point about enmeshment and her wanting me to be more like her - that really resonates, along with everything else you wrote 

If she were to do the same thing today, I think I would still invite her in, give her a cup of tea and tell her that I was busy right now and ask her if she wanted to call a taxi.  I wouldn't engage in the conversation that we had.

Hm, so my work with boundaries is ongoing - I see a lot of red flags up there.  Thank you both so much for your perspective, it is very, very helpful. 

heartandwhole

[Surnia]

heartandwhole

Parts of your story remembers me totally some "arguments" with my now exh. It is so familar to me. He was drunk and started the tough love thing and calling me out... .  Like you I do not liked it. Not at all.

It took me along time to realize that this drunk discussions leads to only damage.

If she were to do the same thing today, I think I would still invite her in, give her a cup of tea and tell her that I was busy right now and ask her if she wanted to call a taxi.  I wouldn't engage in the conversation that we had.

Yep, this seems quite a plan.

Thank you for sharing it, heartandwhole.   It means a lot to me. Makes me think about enmeshment and being drunk. And boundaries when others are drinking.

[heartandwhole]

Hi Surnia!   

Thank you for your reply.  It helps me to know that I am on the right track, because sometimes I just wonder what the heck is wrong with me?  It seems that right in the beginning of a r/s or situation I have good boundaries, but then I start thinking that I'm being too rigid, or I want something from the other person and then starts the magical slip-slide away of boundaries.

Thank you for your support, I appreciate it !    

[Surnia]

It seems that right in the beginning of a r/s or situation I have good boundaries, but then I start thinking that I'm being too rigid, or I want something from the other person and then starts the magical slip-slide away of boundaries.

O yes! I couldn't say it better. So familiar to me. You are my twin-sister concerning (weak) boundaries.