This really feels like I'm dealing with a child

[Chattgirl]

My bp and I had a breakdown. I became emotion and lost it two times this weekend and told him how much the things he had done to me like leaving me four times, talking to women online, blocking me, ect ect had hurt me. I got real upset and cried. He would not talk to me about it period. He takes NO responsibility.  Well as a result of me loosing it he is angry and being hateful and quiet. I txt him today and ask if he wanted to go to dinner. He wouldn't give me a yes or no just maybe. I decided at four to go with a friend. Then he was angry. I met him after dinner and he wanted me to go with him to his daughters house. He wants to be with me but not speak at all. I really do think emotionally this is like dealing with a four year old. He wants me to beg to him. He gets my texts and waits a long time to read them . I think he wants to make me chase him. Everything's about him. He can be so sweet and giving but emotionally I just question sometimes if he does have any empathy. I am dealing with a four year old but worse because he has, keys, a credit card, Internet, and a phone. He told me today I was bipolar and that he might have to get back in church and quit worrying about me. So funny cause I responded I would love to be in church Sunday. No response back to that text.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

Sulking is more effective if it is being witnessed.

A child is developing and can change. You have assertable authority over a child.

With a pwBPD they are static and not deveolping. They wont accept your authority.

2 x preschoolers acting up are easier than an adult pwBPD to deal with

[ZigZiglar]

My wife is quite insightful for a low functioning dBPD. She admitted that she feels like she has the emotional maturity of a toddler and said she feels that's why she is so defensive of our toddler's testing behaviors. In fact in her words she believes that he should not be disciplined or given consequences for his behavior, but given a chance to be acknowledged empathetically and guided morally into wanting to improve his behavior. I think that is amazingly insightful thinking, however, it does not work so well with a pre-speech two year old... .  4 does sound about right.

[waverider]

My wife is quite insightful for a low functioning dBPD. She admitted that she feels like she has the emotional maturity of a toddler and said she feels that's why she is so defensive of our toddler's testing behaviors. In fact in her words she believes that he should not be disciplined or given consequences for his behavior, but given a chance to be acknowledged empathetically and guided morally into wanting to improve his behavior. I think that is amazingly insightful thinking, however, it does not work so well with a pre-speech two year old... .  4 does sound about right.

Problems arise as the child grows and becomes aware that in many regards they are more mature in certain aspects than one of their parents. They suddenly loose respect for the parent and the parent with BPD sees them as a threat, this leads to serious domestic conflict.

[ZigZiglar]

My wife is quite insightful for a low functioning dBPD. She admitted that she feels like she has the emotional maturity of a toddler and said she feels that's why she is so defensive of our toddler's testing behaviors. In fact in her words she believes that he should not be disciplined or given consequences for his behavior, but given a chance to be acknowledged empathetically and guided morally into wanting to improve his behavior. I think that is amazingly insightful thinking, however, it does not work so well with a pre-speech two year old... .  4 does sound about right.

Problems arise as the child grows and becomes aware that in many regards they are more mature in certain aspects than one of their parents. They suddenly loose respect for the parent and the parent with BPD sees them as a threat, this leads to serious domestic conflict.

Hopefully by the time my children (10 months and 2 years) are old enough to perceive their emotional maturity as superior to their mother's, her progress in treatment has come a long way! I can definitely understand what you are saying. Scary.

[almost789]

Im amazed at how similar they all are. Mine is exactly this way. He wants to be friends, but doesnt want to speak, will take no responsibility, acts like an impulsive 4 year old. Yet when we first met and in the first few months he was Mr. Mature. Acting the role of a grown up. Ive read that they put on the grown up act for certain situations but they are aware they are playing a part  and the child is really who they are. Gosh, i do remember a fee times early on this child sept through and i actually laughed and said... .  your acting like a kid. This before i know anything about BPD. I think when one decides to stay, you unfortunately have to make a switch from equals to more of a parent child dynamic.

[ZigZiglar]

I think when one decides to stay, you unfortunately have to make a switch from equals to more of a parent child dynamic.

I am certain it happens in a majority of cases, however, a relationship cannot flourish healthily without equality. If you are comfortable in a parenting role with your partner, there is something emotionally out of joint with you. (The royal you, not you personally). And if you aren't comfortable with it but it is just the natural course the relationship has to take while you are each on different emotional levels, then I honestly don't know how long this can go on before your emotional growth will reach a point where the relationship feels superfluous and the cost of cutting ties will no longer be as big an obstacle.

Wow. I think I may be approaching that road myself having "said it out aloud"... .  

[almost789]

I agree ziglar,

Hes no longer my partner. Were not together anymore. But I do believe this is how it works for most that are staying, which is why stayers have to seek outside support.

[waverider]

I think when one decides to stay, you unfortunately have to make a switch from equals to more of a parent child dynamic.

I am certain it happens in a majority of cases, however, a relationship cannot flourish healthily without equality. If you are comfortable in a parenting role with your partner, there is something emotionally out of joint with you. (The royal you, not you personally). And if you aren't comfortable with it but it is just the natural course the relationship has to take while you are each on different emotional levels, then I honestly don't know how long this can go on before your emotional growth will reach a point where the relationship feels superfluous and the cost of cutting ties will no longer be as big an obstacle.

Wow. I think I may be approaching that road myself having "said it out aloud"... .  

This is true there is a tendency to shift to carer mode, more than partnership role, if you don't address this. Though you cant just divide things down the middle and all is 50/50 fair, that doesn't work either.

You need to work hard to identify what issues are important to you and you take the bulk of control in those areas so you dont get frustrated. Equally you have to work out what they can be left responsibility for, a bit of Acceptance will need to come into play to facilitate this. Then leave these things solely for them and go with the flow. Even if in your eyes they are making a muck of it.

Having this clear demarcation will leave them with more to be proud of and also helps you respect them better (as long as you keep you fingers out of it).

The irony is even though they will often handball responsibility to you whenever they can, they hate it when you pick it up and start taking control. They then want it back, and you are into the push pull nonsense.

It won't be 50/50, but at least it will be more psychologically manageable, and help maintain the partnership.

[tuli]

Borderlines are not really like four-year olds.  Their condition is more based on the lack of empathy.  There is emotional immaturity, but there is also strong awareness that they want what they want and they do not see you or society as anything that should stand in their way.  They believe they should get special privileges that the rest of us do not have and they believe their needs are more important than ours, but they prefer you not to know they are doing this and that you believe them to be helpless or childlike.  These are moral or character issues, not developmental neurological delays.

We tend to want to see them like we are, but they do not have the same ethics we do.  They will do whatever is in their power to divert you away from seeing them as manipulative and conniving to get their way. ( I am not talking about all BPD here.  There are some who only act in and do not try to exert power over others in this way.)

[almost789]

That is not correct tuli. It is not about moral character and ethics at all. It is about emotional arrested development. There is plenty information on the web regarding this. Where did you get this information from? That this is about moral character?

The reason for the lack of empathy you mention is due to emotional stunting and when they get triggered and dysregulated they act as if they are toddlers as such toddlers dont really have the capacity for empathy.

[waverider]

Borderlines are not really like four-year olds.  Their condition is more based on the lack of empathy.  There is emotional immaturity, but there is also strong awareness that they want what they want and they do not see you or society as anything that should stand in their way.  They believe they should get special privileges that the rest of us do not have and they believe their needs are more important than ours, but they prefer you not to know they are doing this and that you believe them to be helpless or childlike.  These are moral or character issues, not developmental neurological delays.

We tend to want to see them like we are, but they do not have the same ethics we do.  They will do whatever is in their power to divert you away from seeing them as manipulative and conniving to get their way. ( I am not talking about all BPD here.  There are some who only act in and do not try to exert power over others in this way.)

pwBPd tend to be incapable of long term strategy manipulation. The reason is their complete lack of consistency,. What may seem like a good plan today is bad tomorrow. If they were capable of stringing together "strategies" there would be greater differences in the behavior and goals of individuals.

It is more a case of being driven by impulse and mood of the moment, driving immediate gratification often with little empathy for the effect their actions may have on others. You are correct in that often many do have a sense of entitlement. They want what others have, but often do not appreciate the effort others put in to achieve what they do (again linked to low empathy). Their "manipulations" as such are more instinctive covering up of their impulsive actions and avoiding consequences. Acts of defensiveness if you like.

Longer term consistent planning is more often found with pwNPD, or at least characteristics of the two Disorders.

It is these short term "stock" BPD behaviors that leads to similar patterns of behavioral consequences between pwBPD and why different members experiences here are so similar.

An analogy I heard for this is that BPD personality traits are like a palette of pigment colors, throw them all in a pot in what ever order you like it always comes out mud brown, as there is no control or restraint in the blending. A pwBPD does not have the level of control over the application of pigments to ensure a controlled individual color blend is produced.

[tuli]

That is not correct tuli. It is not about moral character and ethics at all. It is about emotional arrested development. There is plenty information on the web regarding this. Where did you get this information from? That this is about moral character?

The reason for the lack of empathy you mention is due to emotional stunting and when they get triggered and dysregulated they act as if they are toddlers as such toddlers dont really have the capacity for empathy.

  The reason I know this is true is because I am a borderline myself, I live with a borderline, and I have spent a lot of time reading the borderline recovery forums.  I can tell you that these abusive behaviors are exactly the same defense mechanisms that people have used to control others for eons.  Abuse is abuse. 

When it was thought of as a male problem, it was appropriately labeled as character-driven.  Now that we are putting all abusers under the label of personality disorder, it becomes easier and more humane to bundle the whole set of behaviors as developmental as opposed to characterological, which some of it certainly is,  particularly as an alarming amount of women, previously thought of as innocent in this arena, are now being found to be using the same horrific abuse techniques in the privacy of their home that we have been stigmatizing men brutally for using.   

Does it make sense to excuse the horrible abuse that your borderline heaps on you and label her as victim but then blame her abuser?  Her abuser had the same abuse heaped on them, and so on and so on back who knows how many generations.  So do we arbitrarily now start to label one generation innocent and developmentally disabled and the others before them people of bad character?  Do we label the male batterers of bad character while we excuse the females as victims and let them continue to abuse their loved ones?  It is a tough call.

Every person who was abused has a choice to abuse or not.  You just don't hear from the people who were abused and choose to live a life of contribution instead of damage and destruction to others.  Sensitives have been cutting and suiciding and suffering forever.  Some of us make clear choices in our lives to end the abuse cycle.  We don't choose to use defense mechanisms to feel better about ourselves by loading pain onto innocent victims.  And there are plenty of us out there.

Most if not all abusers will claim they are victims.  Huge numbers of convicted criminals claim they are victim, proof be damned.  I've been involved in AA for 20 plus years, and it is well known that personality disordered people in there who practice character development within the 12 steps lose their symptoms of personality disorder and they stop abusing their loved ones, regardless of whether they work on their childhood issues.

I have spent a lot of time talking with my husband about this.  Either of us could teach a non-disordered person how to think in the way that allows them to abuse within a week.  It is a very specific mindset and anyone can do it, just like we could teach anyone to get dysregulated to the point of not being able to think straight.  The decision to not get help is based on poor ethics.  The defense mechanisms feel much better than facing pain and doing work.  But it is an ethical choice to damage others as an escape from pain.  It is every borderline's choice.

Go to a recovery borderline forum, and you can read hundreds of borderlines admitting that they know what they do, they are manipulative, conniving, can easily do longterm planning, particularly revenge.  They easily admit to having huge amounts of hate for all people and not caring.  And these are not the high-functioning uBPDs, these are the ones that admit to it and get help.  They are secretly so different from how they portray themselves to non-borderlines.  This is very well known between borderlines.

However, it is easier to redefine the whole problem in the context of disease, and it will allow more to get help because they don't have to face the shame of their choices.  But for those of us who live with abuse, it is still abuse, even if the paradigm has now shifted into a gentler way of looking at things.

[almost789]

Tuli,

Defence mechanisms are considered unconcious and this is not a newly defined thing. Also, as far as I know BPD was never predominantly male.

[waverider]

However, it is easier to redefine the whole problem in the context of disease, and it will allow more to get help because they don't have to face the shame of their choices.  But for those of us who live with abuse, it is still abuse, even if the paradigm has now shifted into a gentler way of looking at things.

Not sure it is classed as a disease, that is different to a Disorder, a disease is a purely physical thing whereas a disorder incorporates a large proportion of situational conditioning. Often the faulty thought processes can create an environment around others that fuels situational trama. eg a "difficult" child can cause family to shun them hence creating invalidating environment which sets that child on a path of sneaking, conniving and having little regards to others.

What is it that causes all these unrelated Borderlines to develop very similar thought processes even though they all grew up in different circumstances, if that nucleus is not from a genetic flaw? Something kick starts them along that path of self destruction where everyone else becomes collateral damage. Self protection is ultimately placed higher on the priority list than ethics or morality.

The fact that most of the behavior can be conditioned out of a pwBPD shows a lot of it is the product of faulty development, whatever the original cause.

It is good that you provide the view point from recovering Borderlines as the majority of the members here are living with Borderlines in denial. Any insights on how a pwBPD moves from from complete unawareness of what their issues are, through acceptance of what is happening, finally to actively doing something about it would be good. That turning point to members here is like staring at the Berlin wall in despair

[tuli]

"It is good that you provide the view point from recovering Borderlines as the majority of the members here are living with Borderlines in denial. Any insights on how a pwBPD moves from from complete unawareness of what their issues are, through acceptance of what is happening, finally to actively doing something about it would be good. That turning point to members here is like staring at the Berlin wall in despair"

That is such a good question, Waverider.  I guess to answer it you need to separate the borderline characteristics from the defense mechanisms to look at what stops the borderline from realizing something is wrong and getting help.

Without the defense mechanisms, the borderline is a very easy to love person with characteristics that are easy to be around, someone who could comfortably accept help from caring people.  Therapy is perfect for them, as are all healing arts.  Suicide and cutting would be a huge problem, but with luck and the right therapy, chances of survival should be pretty good.  So the basic characteristics of a borderline might be:

Great fear of people with simultaneous wish to belong and have closeness.

Great fear of making mistakes or ever being, looking wrong to others.

Great fear of others judging anything you do.

Not feeling as good as "normal" people.

Feeling extremely self-conscious.

Not being able to handle any criticism without feeling ashamed.

Feeling humiliated at any reaction from people that is not clearly positive.

Being afraid of being fired, left, catastophizing about physical safety.

No matter how much recovery work and therapy and healing you do, this will be your basic personality.  Part of recovery is to accept this vulnerability, and that you will never be like normal people but that being vulnerable is a valuable human quality and that people who have good ethics will not attack you for being afraid.

If you are a borderline who is ashamed of your fear and your vulnerablity and cannot live with your weaknesses, you are going to use the defense mechanisms to make yourself feel normal.

[waverider]

So the basic characteristics of a borderline might be:

Great fear of people with simultaneous wish to belong and have closeness.

Great fear of making mistakes or ever being, looking wrong to others.

Great fear of others judging anything you do.

Not feeling as good as "normal" people.

Feeling extremely self-conscious.

Not being able to handle any criticism without feeling ashamed.

Feeling humiliated at any reaction from people that is not clearly positive.

Being afraid of being fired, left, catastophizing about physical safety.

No matter how much recovery work and therapy and healing you do, this will be your basic personality.  Part of recovery is to accept this vulnerability, and that you will never be like normal people but that being vulnerable is a valuable human quality and that people who have good ethics will not attack you for being afraid.

This sounds very much like the teachings of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT). The actions taken to combat a problem are more destructive than just accepting issues as being just part of you and that it is ok to just acknowledge them and live with them rather than trying to push them away them.

It is a popular therapy in Australia for BPD amongst other things.

[waverider]

We hear a lot about nons having to use Acceptance towards the pwBPD. Often it is overlooked that the pwBPD has to also practice Acceptance of their own traits before they can start to manage themselves more effectively. The inbuild defensive denial is the hurdle they must overcome to reach that place.

Also being "cured" is more about learning to better manage themselves rather than a total personality transplant.

Would you say a "cured" pwBPD is similar to a non practicing alcohlic, (issue is always present but managed) or is the treatment more effective than that?

What are the odds of relapsing after reaching a state of symptom free?

[almost789]

Excellent insight Tuli. All these things i believe stem from the lack of identity and no sense of self. I believe these issues are dealt with in the Schema Therapy approach and also, with the inner child based approaches to therapy which fouses on finding you via the inner child and rebuilding that sense of self through therapy. Have you read any of AJ Maharis stuff? Shes a recovered borderline.

[tuli]

We hear a lot about nons having to use Acceptance towards the pwBPD. Often it is overlooked that the pwBPD has to also practice Acceptance of their own traits before they can start to manage themselves more effectively. The inbuild defensive denial is the hurdle they must overcome to reach that place.

Also being "cured" is more about learning to better manage themselves rather than a total personality transplant.

Would you say a "cured" pwBPD is similar to a non practicing alcohlic, (issue is always present but managed) or is the treatment more effective than that?

What are the odds of relapsing after reaching a state of symptom free?

Yes, I agree completely with all of your thoughts and connections here, particularly how you describe the similarities between borderline recovery and alcoholic recovery.  That is a really good way of putting it.

Relapse is probably dependent on how deep your work is.  It took about 15 years of solid deep emotional work on myself before I felt out of the woods as far as relapsing.  But we are all different.  If you just do behavioral modification to stop abusing, cognitive or DBT or AA without therapy, you can relapse easily.

In order to really heal and not be prone to relapse a borderline has to devote the rest of their life to healing.  It doesn't sound like much fun, but the paradox is that this is an awesome thing to devote your life to.  You will be happy if you do this.  You will find the antidote to your pain.  But how do you convince your borderline that that's all they have to look forward to and they are never going to have a normal life?  So, as you said so well, there really isn't a recovery, only management.  But the management turns out to be a very beautiful way to live. 

 

[jaird]

I like Tuli's first post about how it all stems from a lack of empathy.

I read recently that BPDs are stuck at the emotional maturity level of a 3-6 year old. I think I read elsewhere that they are often stuck at the level of a five year old. I'm not sure if they are supposed to be stuck at the age/level of when any sexually abuse occurred.

My exBPW was abused by a much older brother. He earliest memories of things not being right is of when she was about 5 years old. This abuse apparently continued on and off somewhat until she was around ten years old. I'm not sure of all the details. But anyway, I never thought that she was reacting like a 3 or 5 or 6 or 10 year old. But she reacts and acts very much like a dramatic 15 year old.

Maybe we are over thinking it all, and it really is based predominantly on their lack of empathy.

[waverider]

In order to really heal and not be prone to relapse a borderline has to devote the rest of their life to healing.  It doesn't sound like much fun, but the paradox is that this is an awesome thing to devote your life to.  You will be happy if you do this.  You will find the antidote to your pain.  But how do you convince your borderline that that's all they have to look forward to and they are never going to have a normal life?  So, as you said so well, there really isn't a recovery, only management.  But the management turns out to be a very beautiful way to live.  

 

The management and use of effective tools I guess gives the pwBPD a focused task and path to follow. Each little "improvement" provides validation and sense of self worth. Rather than the previous go nowhere quagmire that is the hopelessness of Borderline despair. As a non partner following what I have learned here I have found a challenge and rewarding task managing what was just sheer madness.

A sense of purpose and achievement makes life worthwhile, no matter where you are on that path

[waverider]

I read recently that BPDs are stuck at the emotional maturity level of a 3-6 year old. I think I read elsewhere that they are often stuck at the level of a five year old. I'm not sure if they are supposed to be stuck at the age/level of when any sexually abuse occurred.

This is partly true, but can be a bit of an over generalization. Children are developing and learning/experimenting with pushing boundaries and you ultimately have authority over them. A pwBPD is not a child and they are far more entrenched in their thought patterns, far more skilled/practiced at pushing boundaries.  Less willing to develop and definitely not subject to your ultimate authority.

Openly treating them like a child will quickly be picked up as patronizing. So there are similarities but be careful of too closely applying the analogy or you can get stuck in an unhealthy, resentful pattern

[tuli]

Excellent insight Tuli. All these things i believe stem from the lack of identity and no sense of self. I believe these issues are dealt with in the Schema Therapy approach and also, with the inner child based approaches to therapy which fouses on finding you via the inner child and rebuilding that sense of self through therapy. Have you read any of AJ Maharis stuff? Shes a recovered borderline.

I totally agree with your with the lack of identity and sense of self are the major source of the problems.  I think all of the new therapies are terrific, really good.  I wish they had been around when I recovered.  I got lucky with being able to use inner child work, and that was really foundational for me and it is still great, great stuff for anyone to practice.  I like all of the behavioral modification techniques as well, particularly DBT.  AJ Mahari is pretty amazing.  Her work can be too complicated for me to understand and apply to everyday life, but she is very powerful and has helped a huge amount of people. 

The only thing I think could be tweaked right now in borderline treatment is that nons need to be taught behavioral modification technique to stop the acting out of borderlines in the home.  I cannot help but feel that that stopping the abuse is preferable over using empathy techniques.  Of course, whatever works should be used, and with nothing better in place, by all means, use empathy. 

But for those who don't have willing or diagnosed partners, there should be training available for methods to stop the use of defense mechanisms so that their partner has no choice but to face their problems.  I am learning the technique right now, and although we don't have abuse in the house, my husband definitely can get into borderline snits, and it has been extremely effective in allowing us to maintain appropriate levels of respect for each other during stressful times. 

I think nons need a method they can use to stop the abuse regardless of whether the BPD believes they need help.  I get that it is still controversial now, but I am really hopeful there will be a transition in this area soon.   

[waverider]

I think nons need a method they can use to stop the abuse regardless of whether the BPD believes they need help.  I get that it is still controversial now, but I am really hopeful there will be a transition in this area soon.   

Problem is the abuse, along with the tolerance/enabling of it, becomes deeply entrenched before anyone becomes aware of the underlying disorder causing it. This means huge changes to personalities and behaviors are needs to reverse this. Which leads to it getting worse before it gets better

[jaird]

I think nons need a method they can use to stop the abuse regardless of whether the BPD believes they need help.  I get that it is still controversial now, but I am really hopeful there will be a transition in this area soon.   

Problem is the abuse, along with the tolerance/enabling of it, becomes deeply entrenched before anyone becomes aware of the underlying disorder causing it. This means huge changes to personalities and behaviors are needs to reverse this. Which leads to it getting worse before it gets better

I think I always tolerated her verbal abuse, nasty text messages, nasty emails, threatening voice mails because I tried to brush it off, and I rationalized that she was usually drunk when she did these things. That was her excuse too, that she was drinking.

The next day, she often could not explain what she said, and often had no recollection of saying it. And then she was usually very sweet the next day, asking to be taken back, to get back together, even if there was no real apology.

I had never been in a relationship like this before, and I found it interesting, and even kind of amusing, if hurtful.

Over time, I did become like her. I went from being a cool, level headed guy, to ranting and raving myself, and pushing her away. I went from being a very honest man, to lying sometimes as I walked on eggshells and didn't want to upset her.

When I saw who I had become, just a few months before the relationship ended, I was surprised to say the least. And I did not like the man I had become. I am still surprised that in some ways, as far as honesty and temper, I changed 180 degrees.

[Kiss Of Kismet]

Child is exactly what it is, it is a shame it took me so long to see this though, because I always believed she was like this but now that it I know of the disorder, I know longer presume it was merely my perspective. Truth is that I believe she is very much like a child at this age, and totally lacking empathy, it has accounted for many of the times she acted how she did in retrospect, remembering a time I nearly died, trying to make a phone call to her on her birthday and police took me for a drug dealer or something like that and had their guns aimed at me and some others, {and they have a penchant for shoot first, think later, where I am from), and she absolutely did not seem to process this like a normal female would.

I called her about 50 times just trying to stop her from feeling so lonely and I told no one, not the official police report, not my parents, no one knows,that the reason I was out that night was because of her, only she knows that I went out to get that phone card and she just seemed to be like , wow that was bad and then forgot about it and when she started switching again even made jokes about the person she had cheated on me with a few days earlier (which emotionally destroyed me amongst many other things) coming and shooting me and things of that nature, it was just, ridiculous, like this is less than a week from the incident, I mean really. When I talk about it now, "she is all like well you talk about it enough, gggeeezzzzzzzz" all I wanted was for her to acknowledge the seriousness of the incident and demonstrate some minimal level of that was awful, somebody who loves you so immensely could have died, that was really awful, I am happy that it didnt happen... .  Nada, never got close, she is just... .  so Heartless... .  absolutely Heartless.

[tuli]

I think nons need a method they can use to stop the abuse regardless of whether the BPD believes they need help.  I get that it is still controversial now, but I am really hopeful there will be a transition in this area soon.   

Problem is the abuse, along with the tolerance/enabling of it, becomes deeply entrenched before anyone becomes aware of the underlying disorder causing it. This means huge changes to personalities and behaviors are needs to reverse this. Which leads to it getting worse before it gets better

I had never thought of this, but you are so right.  That's really heavy, but very true. 

It is such an insideous part of this condition that the amazing ability of a borderline to read others emotions, a quality that could be used for so much good in the world often ends up being directed towards slowly boiling the poor frogs so they don't realize the pot is hot until it is too late. 

It is really a shame.  I'm sure it can take years for the partner to make these huge personality changes to get back up to where they started before the relationship.  It seems that the borderline can take innocent people down so easily.  This is very sad.

[NotPerfect]

I don't know about your SO. But mine is pretty much incapable of apologizing unless I d apologizing and admiting they are wrong.

[waverider]

It is such an insideous part of this condition that the amazing ability of a borderline to read others emotions, a quality that could be used for so much good in the world often ends up being directed towards slowly boiling the poor frogs so they don't realize the pot is hot until it is too late. 

Love the analogy, seems this site is full of hot frogs then!

Fear of the reaction to the necessary changes means only the strong and informed have any real chance of making those changes.

I am sure most people in these RS's never even find out about the disorder. As a result many relationships will forever endure misery for both parties without ever knowing why. At least Google has pointed many in the direction of discovery