I don't know what to say to him.

[cocobell]

Hi everyone,

I've written about this person before ... .  he is a sort-of ex, someone I have been trying to be friends with but it isn't working. Lately I'm trying to detach slowly, leaving a lot of time between meet-ups, saying I am busy more and more.

I am so depressed right now that I hardly have the energy to describe his recent behaviour, suffice to say it's not good. He rewrites history and makes out like I am crazy for believing things he has said in the past. He makes EVERYTHING about him. He comes onto me, then refuses to explain this behaviour. He can't be straight with me about things when asked, but when I instead leave the door open to talk to me if he'd like to, he accuses me of being 'passive-aggressive'.

Rejecting him is not easy, because he has made me his sole source of meaningful human contact. He says he doesn't confide in anyone else. He hardly sees anyone else. He claims his other friendships are all superficial and claims all his other friends have 'abandoned' him. I feel burdened with the responsibility he has placed on me. At the same time if I ditched him completely I would worry that he was all alone.

The last time I saw him he really emphasised how he has no-one else but me, and it was very intense. I felt quite suffocated. This is in really stark contrast to a year ago when he was pushing me away and being extremely cold and uncaring.

I don't want to make him upset or angry. I need something to say that will give him the message I am not interested but will cause minimal anger on his part. I fear that he will get nasty if I am too brutal about it - he knows very personal things about me that I've confided in him in the past, and I'd like to think that he would never break that trust but I can't be sure.

I would like to talk to him face to face and explain why he is making me not want to see him, but based on past experiences, this will only lead to an argument and him misunderstanding me and attacking me. I'm also very bad in face to face situations and tend to give in really easily. But a text or email seems so cold.

The problem seems to be I feel like I owe him, but what, I'm not sure. I also feel guilty for being weak and not being able to keep him away.

Thanks for listening,

CB

[turtle]

Hi cocobell!

Well... .  he's done a good job of isolating you.  That is a common thing, but it doesn't have to be this way!

You don't owe him ANYTHING.

You are not responsible FOR him and you do not have to be his ONLY source of support.  That isn't fair to you --- and really -- it's not fair to him either.

The good news is that you aren't married to him or living with him.  You don't have any legal entanglements with him, right?

If you really want to be done, what are some things that you think you could say to him to end this?  You KNOW him, so come up with a few things and post them here first.  I/we could give you the lines to actually say, but this needs to come from you.  If you post what you're thinking here, you can fine tune it until it's something you can say with conviction.  When you do say it, you need to say it with conviction!

And remember... .  it's highly likely that whatever you say, he WILL be upset/angry.  That's just a fact.  However, you have to decide if you want to deal with his anger temporarily, or if you want to remain in this toxicity.

The idea of distancing yourself is good, but it sounds as though you always get sucked back in.  I think that's happened to all of us.  It's hard to do it that way!

[GreenMango]

Check out the workshop on FOG (fear obligation guilt).  It's a lot of why people stay or keep trying in almost impossible situations.

Like Turtle says it doesn't have to be this way, but he sounds like he's making up the rules.  Letting someone with emotional issues make the rules can land ya in a world of hurt.

[cocobell]

Thank you Turtle and GreenMango for your responses.

No, I am not legally attached to him in any way. It is definitely FOG that is making me feel responsible for him. I can't explain how thickly he lays it on sometimes, with the claims that he has no friends, etc. It's hard to imagine that he is doing it for any other reason than to make me feel sorry for him and like I can't walk away.

Turtle, that is a great idea - unfortunately because I know him I can think of defensive, angry reactions that he could come up with, to anything I might say. What I feel is just 'go away and leave me alone', because I am at the end of my tolerance and I am almost past caring. But I know I can't SAY this.

I wonder whether I could just tell him that I can't cope right now and that I'd like some space. Or whether I need to actually give clear reasons. I am trapped in this idea that I can 'make him see' what he's like and how he's alienated me but I know it's not possible. It leads me to think that I just need an excuse, that he'll believe, and that will work.

Sorry if this seems incoherent - I feel exhausted by this.

CB

[turtle]

I can't explain how thickly he lays it on sometimes, with the claims that he has no friends, etc. It's hard to imagine that he is doing it for any other reason than to make me feel sorry for him and like I can't walk away.

I know exactly what you mean.  My ex did this to me.  It got to the point where I feared he would commit suicide if I left.  That is soo twisted.  And what your ex is doing to you is soo twisted too!  There is NO relationship on the planet that should make you feel this way.  It is NOT right!

Turtle, that is a great idea - unfortunately because I know him I can think of defensive, angry reactions that he could come up with, to anything I might say. What I feel is just 'go away and leave me alone', because I am at the end of my tolerance and I am almost past caring. But I know I can't SAY this.

Okay... .  so you now know that anything you say will be received badly.  That's usually how it works, but it's better to just accept that fact so you aren't shocked or hurt or vulnerable to giving in to him again.  You can't really prepare for his reaction, but just knowing that he WILL react is being proactive.  The chance that he will take whatever you say at face value and just go away without a fuss is highly unlikely.

I wonder whether I could just tell him that I can't cope right now and that I'd like some space. Or whether I need to actually give clear reasons. I am trapped in this idea that I can 'make him see' what he's like and how he's alienated me but I know it's not possible. It leads me to think that I just need an excuse, that he'll believe, and that will work.

Well, my best guess is that you've given him countless "clear reasons" throughout the time you've been together.  If he was going to respect any "clear reasons," he would have done that long ago.   And, as you know, you will never make him see anything!

So... .  you have two choices here.

End it. Tell him that this just isn't working for you and you cannot see him or speak to him anymore.  If you do this... .  you need to mean it.  So you need to think about if you're really ready for that.  You may not be (which every person here understands.)  If you end it - he will react -- and you will have to be ready to stay strong through all of his pleading, begging, anger, etc.  The plus to this is that once you make it through his poor reaction, you'll be done.  You won't have prolonged the agony.

If you tell him you can't cope right now and need some space, his reaction will probably be the same... .  so make sure you create that space and take it. You  might have to set some guidelines for him as to what "space" means.  "Space" to you means... .  go away forever.  "Space" to him might mean - she needs a few minutes.  I know I tried this with my ex once and it was a disaster.  Even though I said "space" was a week... .  it meant "minutes" to him. He drove me nuts until I gave in again and the crazy dance resumed. He bullied me into getting what he wanted and I was still miserable.

The problem with this idea is that regardless of how "space" is defined, he will believe that he's still in the loop. He will make sure that your space is invaded... .  so again, you have to be strong here to create and demand this space. That means, not talking to him every day. He won't like it.

Sorry if this seems incoherent - I feel exhausted by this.

You seem very incoherent.  These situations deplete us.  It's difficult to do much else when we are consumed with so much negativity!

Right now... .  if you could make a choice without thinking about HIM or HIS reactions, what would you say and do?

turtle

[cocobell]

Hi Turtle, thank you so much for responding again.

Well, my best guess is that you've given him countless "clear reasons" throughout the time you've been together.  If he was going to respect any "clear reasons," he would have done that long ago.   And, as you know, you will never make him see anything!

Yes, that's right - I have tried to be clear and explain before how his behaviour makes me feel and he doesn't listen.

Right now... .  if you could make a choice without thinking about HIM or HIS reactions, what would you say and do?

Honestly, I just wouldn't contact him again. I am so tired of it all.

But your advice is good - I think I will take the second option, for now. I'll let you know how I get on. Thank you again.

CB

[turtle]

Yes... .  cocobell... .  

keep us posted!

We are here to support YOU!

[trouble11]

Rejecting him is not easy, because he has made me his sole source of meaningful human contact. He says he doesn't confide in anyone else. He hardly sees anyone else. He claims his other friendships are all superficial and claims all his other friends have 'abandoned' him. I feel burdened with the responsibility he has placed on me. At the same time if I ditched him completely I would worry that he was all alone.

The last time I saw him he really emphasised how he has no-one else but me, and it was very intense. I felt quite suffocated. This is in really stark contrast to a year ago when he was pushing me away and being extremely cold and uncaring.

Mine said that kind of stuff to me also, and yes, in a very intense manor, complete with puppy dog eyes and everything.  But guess what ... .  after snooping through his email ... .  I know it's bad ... .  but he says the same thing to the new girl.  "I can tell you anything ... .  you're the only one I've ever been able to talk to" .   

[cocobell]

Well... .  I texted, in the end. I said I was not able to meet him right now because I'm very stressed, that I wanted some space and that I am sorry but I don't want a romantic relationship with him. (He had been seeming to push for this on our last meet, not saying so directly but by coming on to me.)

His response so far has been quite a polite text back saying that he respects my decision and hopes I feel better soon. I'm slightly thrown by that and I wonder what will happen next.

I feel relieved but apprehensive.

Trouble11, I do wonder whether his claims that I am 'the only one who... .  ' etc are lies or exaggerations. Or if he says the exact same thing to anyone else.

CB

[Peterpan]

HI Cocobell 

I am going through this too right now, I have been through hell with this man... my own fault as it was an affair, but that doesn't make it hurt any less.

How long has you relationship/frendship been going on?

Mine moved on to another place of ork ell over a year ago, after I found that he had been having an affair ith me and also another woman right under my nose.

I suppose I am the prime example of the totally controlled and manipulated woman involved ith a pBPD.

I hae had him back and forth in my life since. He never really left, he kept up texting... .  phone clals here and there hich axed and aned, adn he only ever came back to give me more than texts as when I voiced my opinions (allbeit in my text replies)

I loved him so so much, but as so devastated by hat he did to me that I almost had a breakdon over it.

I too have now got to the point here I know this is ridiculous, he has been stringing me along all that time, and has NO intentions of giving me any more than he already does.

I told him that I ould never be able to be only friends ith him,, all he has doen is taken it on board and used it to manipulate me with false promises, innuendos and " I will, I'm just so busy right now"

I know that he was definfitely texting that other woman, and it would be a foolish thing to assume he NEVER said the same things to her as he did me.

I have tried to end this madness so many times, only to have like you do, he reels me back in because I can't bear to hurt a three year old!

What words can I find to say to him, so that he will leave me alone... .  I don't know either because I'm torn between hope that he will see the light and make his actions match his words, and stay and make it real... .  and spending most of my days feeling he just punched me in the stomach with a dismissal.

How long can you go on just getting... .    "I love and miss you my darling"?

Ironic that I have had the name coco come up in my texts from him too, as well as the nicknames of other women.

I will keep reading your posts, I will be eager to see if what you do works, take care x

[maria1]

Hi Cocobell

I'm sorry you are going through this. It might help you to read my previous posts as I've been through what sounds like a very similar situation with my ex.

I couldn't turn my back on him no matter what he did. I believed that I had to keep a connection with him and if I severed it the consequences would be too great. I had a period of NC at the start but always knew that I wouldn't be able to maintain it if he came back, which he did, nearly 3 months after the r/s had ended.

I knew I wouldn't go back into a r/s with him. I was stuck knowing that he lied but never being able to challenge him on his lies. I did what you are doing. I started to take care of myself. I blamed my own stress. He would respond in similar ways but he'd always come back. It was working but it was hard.

Recently I let him get closer again, still keeping some distance but the fog came rolling in and I started to believe him. I was given a gift. He didn't turn up somewhere when we'd arranged to meet. I think that was just a ploy to get my mobile number which he has been pushing for (I had to change it when I went NC). I later checked his FB page which I do sometimes when I worry about him, it helps me to see him getting on with it with other people.

I saw his current girlfriend he has just become friends with. He has been telling me all that is wrong with her. She is 10 years younger than him, a widow of 18 months. He tells me he broke up with her. Anyway on her page is her 'in a relationship status' with comments fro her friends and the date it started. For weeks after he was still trying to get back with me- emailing me sexual comments, telling me how much he loved me.

I find it the most difficult thinking of that vulnerable woman believing what he says to her and, taking his abuse. He told me he is horrible to her and she cries. He told me he 'needs' someone who is tougher (like me). It makes me feel sick to my stomach thinking of how he talks and seeing her reality.

Why I'm telling you this story Cocobelle is because I am sure your pwBPD knows what to tell you to keep you engaged. People with BPD need to keep people close anyway they can and often they don't even realise they are lying because they lie to themselves.

I hope this makes some sense to you. What I'm saying is trust your instincts and use these boards to bolster your strength. You will feel the last thing you can do is turn away from him. It is what you need to do.

I have finally told my ex to F*** off. Those are the words he understands most from me. I tried many times to say let's just leave each other be. It never worked. Now I've seen his true colours I feel relieved. I know he is ill, I know it will hurt him but I'm past caring now. It's a good place to be.

I wish you strength. Please look after yourself and keep posting. Start to think if you can about why you are drawn to this man and who else has treated you like this in your life. 

[cocobell]

Peterpan, thanks for your response - to answer your question it has been going on (off and on) for two years. We never really had a 'proper' relationship but the feelings have been there. (Apart from when he claimed that he didn't have any, which is another story.)

Maria1, I will find your posts and have a read. Quite a bit of what you're saying rings true to me too, especially:

I believed that I had to keep a connection with him and if I severed it the consequences would be too great.

I believe this too, in fact so much that even when I haven't been in contact with him for a while I still feel the burden of responsibility towards him. There have been times in the past where I could have easily let the contact slide, but I always made that move and got back in touch with him.

Also:

I was stuck knowing that he lied but never being able to challenge him on his lies... .  often they don't even realise they are lying because they lie to themselves.

I feel he lies to himself and is in denial especially about his own role in what went wrong between us. E.g. a year ago he was insisting he had no feelings for me left at all and it was quite brutal. Now he is denying that this ever happened and saying he can't believe I thought he didn't have feelings, etc. It's quite disorientating to be on the receiving end of this and I don't understand how he can be so un self aware about things he's said and done. It makes talking to him about it impossible because his reality is so different to mine, like we are speaking different languages.

Btw, your ex's comments about how he treats his new gf are really awful.  I sometimes wonder if/when mine gets a gf how he will treat her. I'm guessing 'not well' which speaks volumes really.

I wish you strength. Please look after yourself and keep posting. Start to think if you can about why you are drawn to this man and who else has treated you like this in your life.

Thank you so much. I don't know 100% what drew me to him yet (other than the obvious - physical attraction), but I think it was partly the desire to nurture him, as right from the start he presented an image of someone who gets badly treated by others and needs love and attention. He was talked about by mutual friends as a difficult person who was overly sensitive, and seemed troubled, and that made him seem all the more attractive to me - make of that what you will! 

Thanks again to both of you - I will keep you posted.

CB

[LoveNYC]

They're way stronger and more resilient than they'd have us believe.

You'll be stunned how quickly he's "over it" once you aren't around to be used anymore.

[cocobell]

Now I have entered the regretful phase, of why did I reject him, what have I done?

I don't understand why this happens! I felt so sure only a few days ago that I never wanted to be involved with him or perhaps even see him ever again. Now I feel so sad and am fighting the urge to make contact and ask to see him. I feel awful.

Never mind him, maybe I'M the one with the problem.  

CB

[maria1]

I am so depressed right now that I hardly have the energy to describe his recent behaviour, suffice to say it's not good. He rewrites history and makes out like I am crazy for believing things he has said in the past. He makes EVERYTHING about him. He comes onto me, then refuses to explain this behaviour. He can't be straight with me about things when asked, but when I instead leave the door open to talk to me if he'd like to, he accuses me of being 'passive-aggressive'.

That's why you 'rejected' him. You haven't rejected him- his disorder rejects intimacy making a balanced, healthy relationship between you impossible. I know the feelings of rejecting him and then doubting yourself- it's so incredibly hard but please take a deep breath and try to hold your ground or you will just keep on going round and round and round in circles.

Have you read about BPD and engulfment fear? It is an attachment disorder. You probably know this already. Often, we are attached to people with attachment issues because we have some of our own. They may not be clear at first but it might help you to dig a little deeper into why you were interested in him? Is there somebody from your childhood that you played a similar role for, or who played a similar role for you?

Your swinging between feeling able to reject and then terrible for what you've done is  normal on here and was/is normal for me. My ex has just put a profile on the dating site I'm on and viewed me. He says he doesn't want children and put his age range above that of his recent girlfriend. I didn't believe they had split up and part of my anger with him was at not liking the idea of him being friends with me whilst in his relationship where he would give her a different picture of our friendship. But seeing his profile I get some respect back for him. She wanted kids, she has money. It would have been an easy way forward for him but he knows it would damage his son. Good for him.

But that doesn't mean I'm wrong to turn my back on him. We want black and white to make this easy. It's all grey and the lies just confuse it even more.

I'm so sorry for your pain cocobelle. I hope you can keep NC or CC for a reasonable amount of time to just give yourself a break x

[GreenMango]

Now I have entered the regretful phase, of why did I reject him, what have I done?

I don't understand why this happens! I felt so sure only a few days ago that I never wanted to be involved with him or perhaps even see him ever again. Now I feel so sad and am fighting the urge to make contact and ask to see him. I feel awful.

Never mind him, maybe I'M the one with the problem.  

CB

CB

You asked yourself a good question.  Maybe write out a list here of why this relationship wasn't working for you and why it was. 

A realistic and balanced evaluation... .  not just waxing nostalgic on the good stuff or focusing on the bad.