Observations after 40 days NC

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hey guys,

Just sharing a broad update after 40 days NC following a 4 year period w/ BPD involved in 6 breakup/makeup cycles.

Here is what I experienced this time around:

20 days of severe depression combined with acute traumatic stress disorder

     -self defeating thoughts

     -severe projective identification (acting out the bad things she said about me during the 20 days I lived with her while I was painted black... .  lived with her total of 50 days [her dad died--30 white days / 20 black days --we went NC]

     - had one night stand with woman online (first in my life, first new woman since before I met exwBPD) 10 days after NC... .  irrational thought pattern was "if i can have sex with someone else, i will break the trauma bond... .  and her hook of "sex bombing" whenever she wanted to get me back. Proved to myself that I could get sex without her, easily. Had flashbacks during sex with new girl... .  bad performance at first, but in the end had healthier sex in one nite stand than in 4 years with exwBPD.

     - drastic reaching out at friends who I have abandonned through self-imposed isolation at the encouragement of exwBPD. Owning my wrong behaviors towards friends, but can't overcome the "stigma" of being involved with this disturbed woman... .  so feel sensitive to their disappointments in me... .  and not wanting to be there for me... .  again.

     - decided to cut off contact with family... .  after reaching to them for reassurance and getting emotionally blackmailed and abused in the process... .  their toxic and abusive behavior has become very clear to me via being in this relationship and observing emotionally abusive behavior.

     - entered therapy and projected on to T and was self-aware... .  talked through it. She understands... .  getting better, but wanting to "prove myself" to myself too quickly... .  putting too much pressure on myself to rebuild a social support too quickly to avoid being ~, or recycling... .  to avoid second-guessing myself and rationalizing her behavior, and returning to my over-empathetic/codependent tendancies that kept me stuck in this toxic rs pattern.

20 days of painful self-reflection:

- Apologizing to friends... .  while realizing that the friendship may not have been that healthy to begin with, resentful towards narcissism in friends... .  resentful that I feel I would be a better friend to them if the situation were reversed... .  but empathizing with them at the same time for "having to put up with me" in between these BPD rs recycles. To some extent I wouldn't want to be my friend right now... .  but this is supposed to be because my thinking is distorted... .  not that my exwBPD was right about me... .  that I am as terrible as what she said.

- reminded of my inclination to seek advice from everybody... .  looking for validation... .  

- reminded of how my parents used to say that my behavior as a child was "disgusting" how they loved to "humiliate me" and "play with my sense of right and wrong" to "mentally terrorize me"... .  how my dad told me all of my friends were "losers" and how my mom told me all the women I've dated are "ugly" or "stupid". Realizing that I'm living out somebody else's projections on to me... .  my parents were viciously abused as children. My mother raped 5. My dad tied to a tree and broken leg and thrown down in to the cellar with gangrene on his leg. My parents never physically abused me, so I feel like a real jerk by not being more forgiving towards them... .  but I am really angry at being this way. At being a victim, blaming them, as they blamed their parents for their treatment of me... .  how they tried to project their abusers on to me, and how i acted out as a child ("class clown" to get attention the only way i knew how, by humiliating myself to add some levity to an uncomfortable situation. The only way i could ensure that my parents wouldn't rage or mess with me too bad was to make my mom laugh... .  my mom held all the strings to the puppets (dad and sister) and would abuse me with them as proxies... .  (my mom was raped by a boy at the age of 8 or so) this is when she started to get really nasty with me... .  and never let up. She would go through my stuff and find some pornography when I was a teenager and would really let me know what a disgusting pervert i was... .  I was a chauvinist 6 years old according to my mom and grandma... .  

Later it would come out that my mom used to be "mute" and "bang her head against the wall" and was "tortured" by other people as well and also had multiple boyfriends at the same time who didn't know of eachother... .  since my mother has never apologized to me once in her life... .  she was always comparing herself to exwBPD... .  "I was frigid when I met your father!"... .  "How can she do that to you. I had more mercy... .  if they really, really loved me... .  I would let them go."

Then when she was around exwBPD she would insult her in cunning ways that were only apparent to my mother and I... .  reminds me of how my exwBPD would act around her sister... .  they would kind of be insulting me, and also teasing me... .  making a "joke out of me"... .  etc.

- recognizing my lack of healthy narcissim... .  that i have very minimal expectations for a rs partner and that i always go with the one that seems to  "like me the best" instead of the one that "I like the best"... .  granted my exwBPD and I both were attracted to eachother... .  she seems to think that she can have anybody at any time with no remorse or guilt for her shameless behaviors and objectification of herself, family, friends, and men in her life. Recognizing some unhealthy narcissim in myself... .  that wants to be seen as "special", "unique", a "hero".

- struggling with trying to "label" what is wrong with me. I have a complex about being a "genius" as this is what people in academia have been telling me since I was very young. It is hard to not feel special, unique, or different when your intelligence (something that is innate and I did not do anything deserve) is something that others have always encouraged, valued, and over-complimented... .  and other parts of me, "my intrinsic being" has been neglected and been the ugly red headed step child as far as my family and society goes.

- I was with exwBPD because she didn't care or acknowledge this unique intelligence, because I thought she was above it... .  but really she was just unaware. To her I was just another person. In fact, I feel if I treated her poorly the relationship would have had a better chance of surviving. If i didn't understand BPD... .  and was just a deadbeat philanderer like her father, than I would be a better partner for her. I almost feel like my integrity made her feel terribly about herself and that she is better off hanging out with people who lie, cheat and steal, or abuse so that she doesn't have to feel so poorly about herself. She wants to be punished, and I would not dole it out... .  instead I said "get out of my life".

- I will turn 30 in less than a month. I need a fresh start and new beginning... .  I need to ride out therapy and conciously participate in my waking life so that I can heal quickly. I need to work hard on my 3 year project. I can not give her the satisfaction of destroying my "dream" of building a company that helps creative people eliminate busy work... .  which is a valuable contribution that may come from a codependent place but is a win/win. I win because I helped out my civilization, and civilization wins because they don't have to do as much busy work. (granted this is just a small segment of "civilization" but isn't helping out society codependent?... .  I mean i could've played poker or something else... .  but it felt too "selfish"

- One of my tough tests is finding healthy narcissism... .  how can I balance healthy pride with healthy humility? Why do I humiliate myself, put myself down, give away my power, and then expect to be treated well by anybody?

- Another tough test is finding healthy codependency... .  remembering that if I had no N traits or codependent traits... .  i would most likely be an extremely boring person. Also, nature vs. nurture comes in to affect here. My T is working with me on differentiating between healthy judgement and unhealthy narcissism( which I see in everyone, everything these days)... .  society seems to really encourage people to judge themselves by their extensions of beauty, intelligence, or material possessions... .  which seems to be creating a lot of PD monsters, and a lot of PD victims.

- I think a BPD's extrinsic beauty/charm/attractiveness causes them a lot of problems. When you are overvalued for something you really have limited control over... .  then you really start to minimzalize the importance of other attributes (character, integrity, self-care, intellectual stimulation... .  etc... .  ). The irony is that this is exactly what I minimalized the importance of in her... .  these characteristics should be much more important than I have made them in my relationship with her... .  

- I want to be with someone who cares about herself. I want to be with someone who doesn't just preach integrity, but that it is woven in to their life.I want to be with someone who stimulates me directly, not stimulates me by having to go research psychology to maintain a rs with them... .  not a challenge in that way. I will save the intellectual challenge for the company, not for trying to figure out a personality disordered person who I am way too close with to be objective and a good influence on her, I became her "abandonment trigger" and she is better off without me in her life. I don't want to be with a woman who enjoys being "naughty" unless it is strictly role-playing fun. I hate to break it to all the readers of shades of grey, but i am not down for any sado-masochistic fantasies that sicko women have to act out on my life. I want a woman who takes care of her health... .  not a heavy drinker, gets regular checkups, doesn't dress too provocatively to invite unwanted attention and then whine about it, a woman who wears underwear to her father's funeral... .  etc.


Well this is a mess... .  40 days out. No panic attacks this time (last time was a different story).

I have flashbacks of her loving side that break through my depression and anger... .  and it hurts a bit more softly... .  cried a bit. It's good to get my emotions out... .  my T has no qualms about me expression how I feel about things. She is a lot better than any of us at that... .  but I appreciate that I can share with all of you guys... .  

A beautiful shade of grey.

Regards,

Stoic

[stoic83]

Hey guys,

Just sharing a broad update after 40 days NC following a 4 year period w/ BPD involved in 6 breakup/makeup cycles.

Here is what I experienced this time around:

20 days of severe depression combined with acute traumatic stress disorder

     -self defeating thoughts

     -severe projective identification (acting out the bad things she said about me during the 20 days I lived with her while I was painted black... .  lived with her total of 50 days [her dad died--30 white days / 20 black days --we went NC]

     - had one night stand with woman online (first in my life, first new woman since before I met exwBPD) 10 days after NC... .  irrational thought pattern was "if i can have sex with someone else, i will break the trauma bond... .  and her hook of "sex bombing" whenever she wanted to get me back. Proved to myself that I could get sex without her, easily. Had flashbacks during sex with new girl... .  bad performance at first, but in the end had healthier sex in one nite stand than in 4 years with exwBPD.

     - drastic reaching out at friends who I have abandonned through self-imposed isolation at the encouragement of exwBPD. Owning my wrong behaviors towards friends, but can't overcome the "stigma" of being involved with this disturbed woman... .  so feel sensitive to their disappointments in me... .  and not wanting to be there for me... .  again.

     - decided to cut off contact with family... .  after reaching to them for reassurance and getting emotionally blackmailed and abused in the process... .  their toxic and abusive behavior has become very clear to me via being in this relationship and observing emotionally abusive behavior.

     - entered therapy and projected on to T and was self-aware... .  talked through it. She understands... .  getting better, but wanting to "prove myself" to myself too quickly... .  putting too much pressure on myself to rebuild a social support too quickly to avoid being ~, or recycling... .  to avoid second-guessing myself and rationalizing her behavior, and returning to my over-empathetic/codependent tendancies that kept me stuck in this toxic rs pattern.

20 days of painful self-reflection:

- Apologizing to friends... .  while realizing that the friendship may not have been that healthy to begin with, resentful towards narcissism in friends... .  resentful that I feel I would be a better friend to them if the situation were reversed... .  but empathizing with them at the same time for "having to put up with me" in between these BPD rs recycles. To some extent I wouldn't want to be my friend right now... .  but this is supposed to be because my thinking is distorted... .  not that my exwBPD was right about me... .  that I am as terrible as what she said.

- reminded of my inclination to seek advice from everybody... .  looking for validation... .  

- reminded of how my parents used to say that my behavior as a child was "disgusting" how they loved to "humiliate me" and "play with my sense of right and wrong" to "mentally terrorize me"... .  how my dad told me all of my friends were "losers" and how my mom told me all the women I've dated are "ugly" or "stupid". Realizing that I'm living out somebody else's projections on to me... .  my parents were viciously abused as children. My mother raped 5. My dad tied to a tree and broken leg and thrown down in to the cellar with gangrene on his leg. My parents never physically abused me, so I feel like a real jerk by not being more forgiving towards them... .  but I am really angry at being this way. At being a victim, blaming them, as they blamed their parents for their treatment of me... .  how they tried to project their abusers on to me, and how i acted out as a child ("class clown" to get attention the only way i knew how, by humiliating myself to add some levity to an uncomfortable situation. The only way i could ensure that my parents wouldn't rage or mess with me too bad was to make my mom laugh... .  my mom held all the strings to the puppets (dad and sister) and would abuse me with them as proxies... .  (my mom was raped by a boy at the age of 8 or so) this is when she started to get really nasty with me... .  and never let up. She would go through my stuff and find some pornography when I was a teenager and would really let me know what a disgusting pervert i was... .  I was a chauvinist 6 years old according to my mom and grandma... .  

Later it would come out that my mom used to be "mute" and "bang her head against the wall" and was "tortured" by other people as well and also had multiple boyfriends at the same time who didn't know of eachother... .  since my mother has never apologized to me once in her life... .  she was always comparing herself to exwBPD... .  "I was frigid when I met your father!"... .  "How can she do that to you. I had more mercy... .  if they really, really loved me... .  I would let them go."

Then when she was around exwBPD she would insult her in cunning ways that were only apparent to my mother and I... .  reminds me of how my exwBPD would act around her sister... .  they would kind of be insulting me, and also teasing me... .  making a "joke out of me"... .  etc.

- recognizing my lack of healthy narcissim... .  that i have very minimal expectations for a rs partner and that i always go with the one that seems to  "like me the best" instead of the one that "I like the best"... .  granted my exwBPD and I both were attracted to eachother... .  she seems to think that she can have anybody at any time with no remorse or guilt for her shameless behaviors and objectification of herself, family, friends, and men in her life. Recognizing some unhealthy narcissim in myself... .  that wants to be seen as "special", "unique", a "hero".

- struggling with trying to "label" what is wrong with me. I have a complex about being a "genius" as this is what people in academia have been telling me since I was very young. It is hard to not feel special, unique, or different when your intelligence (something that is innate and I did not do anything deserve) is something that others have always encouraged, valued, and over-complimented... .  and other parts of me, "my intrinsic being" has been neglected and been the ugly red headed step child as far as my family and society goes.

- I was with exwBPD because she didn't care or acknowledge this unique intelligence, because I thought she was above it... .  but really she was just unaware. To her I was just another person. In fact, I feel if I treated her poorly the relationship would have had a better chance of surviving. If i didn't understand BPD... .  and was just a deadbeat philanderer like her father, than I would be a better partner for her. I almost feel like my integrity made her feel terribly about herself and that she is better off hanging out with people who lie, cheat and steal, or abuse so that she doesn't have to feel so poorly about herself. She wants to be punished, and I would not dole it out... .  instead I said "get out of my life".

- I will turn 30 in less than a month. I need a fresh start and new beginning... .  I need to ride out therapy and conciously participate in my waking life so that I can heal quickly. I need to work hard on my 3 year project. I can not give her the satisfaction of destroying my "dream" of building a company that helps creative people eliminate busy work... .  which is a valuable contribution that may come from a codependent place but is a win/win. I win because I helped out my civilization, and civilization wins because they don't have to do as much busy work. (granted this is just a small segment of "civilization" but isn't helping out society codependent?... .  I mean i could've played poker or something else... .  but it felt too "selfish"

- One of my tough tests is finding healthy narcissism... .  how can I balance healthy pride with healthy humility? Why do I humiliate myself, put myself down, give away my power, and then expect to be treated well by anybody?

- Another tough test is finding healthy codependency... .  remembering that if I had no N traits or codependent traits... .  i would most likely be an extremely boring person. Also, nature vs. nurture comes in to affect here. My T is working with me on differentiating between healthy judgement and unhealthy narcissism( which I see in everyone, everything these days)... .  society seems to really encourage people to judge themselves by their extensions of beauty, intelligence, or material possessions... .  which seems to be creating a lot of PD monsters, and a lot of PD victims.

- I think a BPD's extrinsic beauty/charm/attractiveness causes them a lot of problems. When you are overvalued for something you really have limited control over... .  then you really start to minimzalize the importance of other attributes (character, integrity, self-care, intellectual stimulation... .  etc... .  ). The irony is that this is exactly what I minimalized the importance of in her... .  these characteristics should be much more important than I have made them in my relationship with her... .  

- I want to be with someone who cares about herself. I want to be with someone who doesn't just preach integrity, but that it is woven in to their life.I want to be with someone who stimulates me directly, not stimulates me by having to go research psychology to maintain a rs with them... .  not a challenge in that way. I will save the intellectual challenge for the company, not for trying to figure out a personality disordered person who I am way too close with to be objective and a good influence on her, I became her "abandonment trigger" and she is better off without me in her life. I don't want to be with a woman who enjoys being "naughty" unless it is strictly role-playing fun. I hate to break it to all the readers of shades of grey, but i am not down for any sado-masochistic fantasies that sicko women have to act out on my life. I want a woman who takes care of her health... .  not a heavy drinker, gets regular checkups, doesn't dress too provocatively to invite unwanted attention and then whine about it, a woman who wears underwear to her father's funeral... .  etc.


Well this is a mess... .  40 days out. No panic attacks this time (last time was a different story).

I have flashbacks of her loving side that break through my depression and anger... .  and it hurts a bit more softly... .  cried a bit. It's good to get my emotions out... .  my T has no qualms about me expression how I feel about things. She is a lot better than any of us at that... .  but I appreciate that I can share with all of you guys... .  

A beautiful shade of grey.

Regards,

Stoic

[hithere]

I think a BPD's extrinsic beauty/charm/attractiveness causes them a lot of problems. When you are overvalued for something you really have limited control over

My exBPD made it clear she wanted to kill herself when she got old and ugly. She also had lots of plastic surgery done and spent lots of money on enhancing her beauty.

I want to be with someone who cares about herself. I want to be with someone who doesn't just preach integrity, but that it is woven in to their life.

It has been 13 months since I left and I am engaged to a person that lives this way, it is amazing!

[GustheDog]

- I think a BPD's extrinsic beauty/charm/attractiveness causes them a lot of problems. When you are overvalued for something you really have limited control over... .  then you really start to minimzalize the importance of other attributes (character, integrity, self-care, intellectual stimulation... .  etc... .  ). The irony is that this is exactly what I minimalized the importance of in her... .  these characteristics should be much more important than I have made them in my relationship with her... .  

Hey stoic,

Lots here - maybe I'll say more later, but I wanted to quickly address this point.  

Like many of us, my ex is highly attractive.  Yet my story differs from most in that I didn't think she was "the best I could do," nor did I have "the best sex of my life" with her (although it was pretty damn good - as an aside, though, the best sex of my life occurred with a woman I now also believe to have BPD, and, moreover, almost everyone I've ever dated has BPD traits - pretty scary).

Believe it or not, I was drawn to and eventually committed to my ex because of who I *believed* she was on the "inside."  I saw a person who shared my values and beliefs - I saw a fabulous person whom I admired and respected.

Needless to say, this was presumably mirroring for the most part.  But my point is that I valued her for "who she was" (or who I thought she was), and this made not one bit of difference (nothing would have, of course, and that's the rub).

In fact, in the end, it became clear that she actually seemed to resent that I *didn't* do more to outwardly demonstrate an appreciation of her physical beauty.  I, on the other hand, thought that we had a deep connection and that, having forged so far beyond the superficial things between us, it was glaringly obvious that I found her physically attractive - implicit in everything else I did for her/us.

The bottom line is that it never mattered.  And if I had been more attentive to her claimed unmet needs regarding complimenting her appearance, etc., then I no doubt would have eventually been judged for not caring about her intrinsic qualities.  

And this is one reason why I felt so betrayed by her.  I was not desperate for female attention at the time I met my ex.  In fact, I was spinning many plates, as it were.  I was casually seeing three other women at the time, and went out with one the night before our first date and another the night after.  I decided to become exclusive with my ex because she seemed to be what I'd been looking for with all these other women but couldn't find.  She induced me to totally commit to her (in the most explicit ways possible), only to callously abandon me once she'd safely landed in the next phase of her life.  I've never felt so used and manipulated.  It was a brilliantly executed con.

I can see that you are making a self-observation, and that is good.  Perhaps you should focus more on these things with your partners in the future.  But, just to quell any lingering doubt about your exBPD, my account should underscore the fact that these failed relationships simply aren't about anything we did or did not do.  They were doomed from their inception.

My ex was so impulsive that one day she decided she'd get a breast reduction.  All of the women in her family (who are also likely disordered) encouraged it - think "Real Housewives" and you have a pretty comprehensive image of these women.  I talked her out of it, and she seemed very appreciative for my guidance.  It shocked me that the considerations I'd raised had never occurred to her.  It was only about her perception that she'd be prettier by having such a procedure, nothing more.  

My ex hasn't had any cosmetic surgery yet, but, if her attitude and older relatives are any indication, it's not far off and is likely to become a lifelong "activity."

P.S. - I'm sure this isn't indicative of anything relevant to BPD, but I thought I'd type it out because I've been dwelling on it - it's actually pretty silly.  I mentioned that I've observed BPD traits in most of the women I've dated on any longer-term basis - probably 5 such women.  All of these women were at least 8/10 appearance-wise.  They also *all* had very large breasts.  I don't really have a "type" that I pursue, so I wasn't consciously seeking out this attribute.  The ex that led me here was 5'8'', 120lbs, with an F/G-cup bust.  None of these 5 or so women had smaller than a D-cup.

99% chance this is coincidence, but I wonder if anyone else can relate to this.  My highly speculative and totally unsupported lay theory would be that maybe the emotional intensity of BPD leads to abnormally high estrogen levels or something with the side effect of exaggerated feminine physical attributes?

[stoic83]

Believe it or not, I was drawn to and eventually committed to my ex because of who I *believed* she was on the "inside."  I saw a person who shared my values and beliefs - I saw a fabulous person whom I admired and respected.

Gus, I can relate to this... .  however not to the same degree. I thought she was a great soul, a great spirit... .  but a bit troubled. She really seemed to share my most important values: no prejudice, open, accepting of differences, kind to the poor, kind to the mentally handicapped, had a diverse group of friends, warm and seemingly empathetic. Make no mistake, that my thinking is seriously twisted, because I thought I saw an abundance of humanity and true love for all in this person. However, perhaps she was mirroring me... .  or perhaps she was mirroring what she thought I wanted. In any case, I always knew she had an edge... .  I have one too. I never claimed to be a choir boy, myself... .  

In fact, in the end, it became clear that she actually seemed to resent that I *didn't* do more to outwardly demonstrate an appreciation of her physical beauty.  I, on the other hand, thought that we had a deep connection and that, having forged so far beyond the superficial things between us, it was glaringly obvious that I found her physically attractive - implicit in everything else I did for her/us.

This is also true for me... .  she seemed to resent the fact that I tried to look at her as a complete person... .  she took it as an insult that I tried to connect with her soul, she wanted to be objectified... .  it was only fair in the end. How could it be fair that she objectified me, and I truly loved her... .  she never asked me to love her... .  it was my fault for loving her. Little did she know that her feet and her mouth were always pointing opposite directions.

I told my exwBPD that "my next girlfriend is going to be way more attractive than her and that she is going to be an f-ing saint". This is after she called me an "idiot" for three days straight. She knows I value my intelligence, I know she values her looks. I sat there at took it for three days. I also told her " I am better looking than you are." This is a blatant lie, but again... .  I was angry enough to stoop to primitive levels of consciousness... .  clearly well out of my normal range of behaviors.

She knows she is more attractive than my previous girlfriend, and so she likes to use that to make me feel insecure... .  she knows I enjoyed the fact that she was attractive, although it clearly wasn't that important to me. i was more attracted to her personality (disordered)... .  and that is sad to say, but I really clicked with these other BPD chicks as well... .  and that is scary. How will i know they don't have BPD?

And this is one reason why I felt so betrayed by her.  I was not desperate for female attention at the time I met my ex.  In fact, I was spinning many plates, as it were.  I was casually seeing three other women at the time, and went out with one the night before our first date and another the night after.  I decided to become exclusive with my ex because she seemed to be what I'd been looking for with all these other women but couldn't find.  She induced me to totally commit to her (in the most explicit ways possible), only to callously abandon me once she'd safely landed in the next phase of her life.  I've never felt so used and manipulated.  It was a brilliantly executed con.

I can relate to this to some degree... .  I may not be the ladies man that you are... haha. All I know is that I was in a great place at the time, overcoming some adversities and that I had plenty of options... .  because when I am on a "good one" I can have a pretty all-encompassing magnetism... .  I have turned this off because I seem to attract the wrong ones. My uncle the psychologist said "your mom didn't want you to comb your hair, because she didn't want the girls coming after you... .  ". When i was a little baby my mother loved the attention she received for my curls, as I got older she loathed the attention i received... .  both for my personality and my intelligence... .  she resented that I had a better childhood than her, that I was smarter than her. I was selfish to her.

I too, have a powerful unconscious attraction to BPD women. I met a very cute, seemingly sensitive girl the other day and I go on to her facebook page to find out that she is a "black hole of need"... .  she never seemed like the type... .  I didn't get that "feeling in my gut" or maybe I did? All I know, is that I have a hard time trusting my attraction to women these days.

I have a friend on facebook who is majoring in psychology and has marilyn monroe all over her fb page... .  she was really coming after me and offering herself to me sexually, and it frightened me... .  I saw her spitting, etc... .  odd behavior for somebody who days earlier seemed laid back and friendly, eager to be supportive and listen to my opinion... .  nope, as soon as I told her I knew she had BPD... .  she painted me black and mentally tortured me the next evening for my friend's birthday... .  she was attractive, but the BPD made her more attractive to me... .  but I was shaking in her house, like I went back in time to feeling like a scared little boy... .  it's sick, because I have always been fairly confident with women. Not like my somatic narcissitic friends, but I know I have a few cards up my sleeve when I need them. It's just I really put my best foot forward with BPD women, or so it seems... .  it just feels like the fact that they like me, makes me like them more... .  it's human nature. If i like myself, and she likes me... .  than hey she's got good taste, right?

I am no match for a BPD... .  they will destroy me, and they have easy access to all my cords and backup batteries and they won't stop till they disassemble.

I am extremely paranoid of women with BPD... .  I can sense them out very easily and I am surprised at how many i run in to in my waking life and can only deduce that there are a lot of people with personality disorders where I live, and that people with personality disorders really enjoy me... .  I don't know why, but they seem to obsess about me... .  and they seem to seek me out... .  through friends, or work associates... .  ask about me behind my back. There always seems to be one everywhere i go and they always seem extremely focused on me... .  so that I can feel their energy.

99% chance this is coincidence, but I wonder if anyone else can relate to this.  My highly speculative and totally unsupported lay theory would be that maybe the emotional intensity of BPD leads to abnormally high estrogen levels or something with the side effect of exaggerated feminine physical attributes?

Lol. my exwBPD had c cup breasts... .  they were perfect though. She always talked about getting them bigger... .  "I know you would like them bigger" etc... .  She definitely had an extremely feminine aura too her... .  she seemed to intimidate my friends with her femininity? I don't know. She had curves and accentuated butt... .  like a disney character or something... .  she had these huge disney eyes... .  i don't know what to say, but she has broken some hearts in her day. She had this way of melting your heart... .  it's hard to explain... .  but she seemed very non-threatening to me upon first meeting her... .  like it was safe and comfortable... .  

In the end after 4 years, she's slipping out "I'm gonna cut it off" in the middle of the night... .  etc. I don't know what happened, but it really just felt like she wanted to kill me. That is a terrible feeling to have from somebody you truly care about... .  it doesn't make sense

I think I was way too supportive and empathetic for her to maintain a steady sexual attraction too, although she would not admit it to my face. I think she needs to be treated poorly and desired my love and affection, but in the end is attracted to someone more like her father, a serial philanderer and can not fight her tendency to be attracted to somebody more like this. Well maybe when she paints herself black , she feels like she needs to be abused? I certainly would not partake in this twisted fantasy of hers... .  I mean to me she was like a wounded bird, I am not going to abuse her anymore... .  but maybe this due to her professional victim mentality. I know she said I treated her poorly too... .  that hurts the most, because I treated her extremely well... .  even when she lost her mind, I still accepted her... .  most of the time it wasn't directed towards me. I had known her for years by this point... .  before she really let me in to her world.

My T and I discussed my attraction to women with borderline traits, and she said that it is okay if I am attracted to women with these traits as long as the other parts of her fall in to line, and I am not ignoring any red flags. As soon as my gut tells me to get out, I get out. I do not ignore the sensations I feel when around a borderline woman. I do not get those sensations around all women... .  I know when it is a borderline woman, and I immediately tell myself never to sleep with them. I personally, can not sleep around as I get emotionally attached to women that I sleep with and it is not a good idea, unless I vet out the woman.

My exwBPD and I slept together the first night, but it was new years and it was at a neighbors party one house down. It seemed like the situation excused the behavior on both sides, and I merely thought I had seduced her... .  . Little did I know, she seduced me... .  

I can attract some very attractive women, but I am probably a bit gun-shy because of my upbringing and the fact that I was encouraged to minimize my aesthetic appeal to satiate my mother's selfishness.

In case you haven't noticed, I am not very happy about my mother and her manipulating me and playing around with my head for the first 18 years of my life. I am not very happy about being attracted to borderline women, or them being attracted to me. I wish i had a different upbringing. I wish I had different parents so that I was not such an easy target for people like my exwBPD.

Moving forward, I can not change who i am attracted to intuitively... .  I can change my vetting process... .  now that I know the warning signs. I need to try to network with healthier women and feel the difference between how I feel around them and how i feel around women with strong borderline traits or BPD.

I need to feel it in my body. I am sensitive like that, and need to harness my strength to protect myself where my other faculties may fail. I have a limited time on this planet and do not want to be damaged anymore.


The red flags i see on your end that you may have overlooked are:

1) A bit too much justification for overlooking the plastic surgery in her family. i know it is popular these days, but it seems that as our society becomes more individualistic and communication less personal, i think personality disorders are becoming more frequent. I think we are devolving to some extent. Plastic surgery seems primitive to me. I don't know about you, but I am never fooled by plastic surgery... .  I can sense when something is artificial. I don't care how good the doctor is. Organic food = good. Organic breasts = good.

2) The double-bind you found yourself in may not have seemed like it at the time: "Hmmm she wants me to talk about her beauty, she wants me to talk about her intrinsic qualities." You shouldn't have to think about what to say to please your woman... .  your woman should be pleased by your essence. Right? I don't know man... .  i tend to be idealistc in that regards... .  but I will not be okay with a woman criticizing what i choose to compliment and appreciate in her anymore. I am not going to play games as to "what do i have to do to satiate this lovely woman... .  do i have to do this, do i have to do that... .  why can't i please her anymore... .  I am so used to being praised... .  what happened"

3) I think it might be hard for you to find what you are looking for in dating several women at a time. I have many friends who juggle the ladies, and in the end they have found that looking for what they truly want and not wasting their time with playing the field... .  I come from a reverse-sexist family and i might feel good about the thrill of hanging out with a bunch of different women, but at the end of the day I know their expectations and it creates dissonance in me. I get that you have to figure out what you like, but I don't think a lot of people get fulfillment from dating around... .  if I needed the attention, I would look for female platonic friends that can introduce me to women that they know are legit. That way, I'm still forging solid relationships with healthier women so that even if i don't meet other women... .  i will have positive role models around, and who knows... .  maybe a friend can become something more? Maybe that might be the best way for us... .  friends first? Most of my friends think i would never be interested in any of their friends... .  too conformist.

I will see through a woman like this very easily going forward... .  I think you will too.

I read through some of 2010's posts at the suggestion of you and Schroeder's piano, and I really enjoyed them:)

Stoic

***modified***

Sorry if i seemed like i was being critical... .  with all this analytical work I am doing on this project I am just in brutal honesty mode. Everything here is an opinion... .  you do a good job in differentiating between your opinion and fact in your posts, and a lot of what I said here is editorial... .  you know I'm on your team. Sucks that you feel conned by the woman you loved... .  you seem like you have a rational way of looking at things, that must feel humiliating for you.

Anyways, I don't feel poorly for being brutally honest here and baring all for you guys to see. I am not proud of my behavior or of my mindset. It is what it is. It feels good to be authentic. So thanks for your feedback gus, and thank you to everybody else for being supportive and being patient with all of us.

[stoic83]

I want to be with someone who cares about herself. I want to be with someone who doesn't just preach integrity, but that it is woven in to their life.

It has been 13 months since I left and I am engaged to a person that lives this way, it is amazing!

That sounds "amazing"! I am very happy for you! Abandoning hope for a happy rs w/ my exwBPD is a process, but hoping for a rs with somebody new, that might teach me a thing or two sounds amazing. I am really looking forward to working hard on myself so I can share myself with somebody new one day! I feel like some karmic retribution is coming... .  !

Stoic83

[GustheDog]

Gus, I can relate to this... .  however not to the same degree. I thought she was a great soul, a great spirit... .  but a bit troubled. She really seemed to share my most important values: no prejudice, open, accepting of differences, kind to the poor, kind to the mentally handicapped, had a diverse group of friends, warm and seemingly empathetic. Make no mistake, that my thinking is seriously twisted, because I thought I saw an abundance of humanity and true love for all in this person. However, perhaps she was mirroring me... .  or perhaps she was mirroring what she thought I wanted. In any case, I always knew she had an edge... .  I have one too. I never claimed to be a choir boy, myself... .  

Actually, you described my own relationship perfectly with this paragraph.  After she put me through the absolute wringer, at one point I even blatantly told her: "You know, I knew you were troubled from the start, but never did I ever think that would bite ME in the a$$."  In fact, the sensitivity/empathy I had for her was manipulated beyond my wildest dreams.  Even with everything I know now, on some level it's still totally unbelievable that this happened.

I told my exwBPD that "my next girlfriend is going to be way more attractive than her and that she is going to be an f-ing saint". This is after she called me an "idiot" for three days straight. She knows I value my intelligence, I know she values her looks. I sat there at took it for three days. I also told her " I am better looking than you are." This is a blatant lie, but again... .  I was angry enough to stoop to primitive levels of consciousness... .  clearly well out of my normal range of behaviors.

Man, I'm trying to forget the laundry-list of nonsensical insults and labels my ex branded me with.  I wasn't just an idiot, I'm afraid - I was "retarded" - oh yes, and she used to lecture me about inappropriate use of that term - she even had a little pin with a big "R" on it to promote responsible use of the word.  But, basically, think about the worst possible things you could say to a person and she said them to me.  I mean, I have a pretty diverse and creative vocabulary, and I couldn't have come up with the stuff she flung at me.  Honestly, though, her words didn't hurt me (in terms of isolated insults).  Part of this was just that it was SO over-the-top and ridiculous that I knew something was "abnormal" by that point.  I was hurt by the whole situation in the aggregate, but really her words were the smallest part of the betrayal.

I really clicked with these other BPD chicks as well... .  and that is scary. How will i know they don't have BPD?

How will you know if they don't have BPD?  No idea.  I can only tell you what I'm afraid of, and that is that there won't be any mutual attraction between us.

I agree with your theory about being drawn to the BPDs (btw, you actually told this girl you knew she was BPD?).  Obviously, I'm going to have serious trust issues going forward, but, the thing is, I wasn't all that trusting *before* this experience.  And I think I (mistakenly) saw security in the BPDs' idealization.  Because, really, that's primarily what I'm after - other things are important, too, but the single most important aspect of in a relationship for me is trust and respect.  I was even very skeptical with my most recent ex, but after hearing assurance after assurance that I'm the greatest, that she's super invested, committed, wants to get married, wants a future, etc., I felt like I could relax on the trust front.  Probably the only time in my life I've ever done so.  And this result doesn't bode well for my ability to do it again.

I am no match for a BPD... .  they will destroy me, and they have easy access to all my cords and backup batteries and they won't stop till they disassemble.

Who IS a good match for a BPD?  I mean, unless a person just doesn't care about anything other than having a good time with someone (on the BPD's terms only), then they have no "good" matches.  Who wants to marry that?  I mean, I know you can't marry a 3-year old, but you can certainly make one a gift of half your present and future assets.  And, shoot, I'd probably rather do just that than actually marry my ex!  3-year olds at least respect authority, BPDs respect nothing.

Re their "energy" - I know what you mean.  They seem to exude an aura, and they seem to like me a heck of a lot, too.  It's always been a little tiny bit creepy, but now it's downright terrifying.  There's a secretary where I work that I've got pegged as BPD.  All the typical flags.  I won't mess with anyone from the office as a rule, so I won't touch her, but it's pretty clear to me.  I can see it - feel it, even - in the way she looks as me.  And it's more than just that this woman thinks I'm a handsome man - much different.  There's a certain je ne sais quoi there, and I used to just think that this was how someone behaves when they like someone.  But there's really no tangible behavior to point out, it's all about sense.  It's like I walk out of my office into the hallway (her cube is probably 50 feet down from my office) and her eyes are on me already.  She's lusting, right there at 10:30 am on a given Tuesday for crying out loud - but it's not just that she's lusting, she's also hunting.  And that is very insidious, because when you're with a BPD you are made to feel as though you have complete control - you're essentially *told* to take control, that you are the alpha male, you pilot this ship.  This is the feeling they create (in me, at least), and it's bait.  You're actually the one being controlled.  I don't like controlling anyone, that much was always a bit uncomfortable to me.  But I certainly liked the added confidence of having someone hang on my every word as though it should be memorialized in stone.

And same story with this woman who works in the office of the management company that owns my apartment complex.  I walked in to pick up a package one day and I just knew.  This lady kept giving me that look - sort of deer-in-the-headlights, with a dash of frenzy/fluster to her mannerisms.  And I think I've got a little PTSD as well, because these things give me chills now and kind of haunt me throughout the day.

As to the red flags - I agree, and I don't think you were being critical.  I had some pretty thick skin before this relationship.  I have an NPD father; I went to law school (where you are humiliated and abused for sport); I work in a large law firm (where you are humiliated and abused for sport - kidding, mostly, as I like my job a lot, but it's not for the faint-hearted); and, finally, I almost married a BPD.  I'm not easily fazed, and, regardless, nothing you said even remotely struck me as offensive.

Anyway, yes, I never liked the plastic surgery thing and I told her this.  I share your opinion here.  As to the "double-bind," as you put it - again, I agree with you.  But after 2.5 years of pretty consistent praise and adoration, she switched on a dime and it took my head a while to catch up to the situation.  Never again, that's for sure - but under the circumstances I think most people would have reacted the same way (I think the stories on this board pretty much confirm this).  And re seeing multiple women - well, I was 24, still a student, and not actively seeking a relationship.  I was open to that if it came along, obviously, but I was just enjoying the dating scene and being young.  But, no, I wasn't planning to take that approach again. 

I guess the question is finding that balance between what you will and won't overlook.  I think I can overlook plastic surgery in someone's family if everything else is kosher, etc.  But I know that I should not have ignored my ex's past with her previous boyfriend of 6 years - which she was surprisingly very candid about.  She told me all about how he mistreated her (allegedly), how they took several "breaks" that lasted several months each, and how she hooked up with other men during those periods.  And, finally, they were getting to the point where marriage was the next step and she bailed and walled him off for good (this is an objective account of the facts, not how she spun them when she told me these things, of course).  But, still, it was my first LTR, I was young, and I really just don't know how I could have known about any of this.  Everything seemed great - I had no idea this person would do this to me.

[stoic83]

I think it was good to look at some more of the red flags... .  and realize that no, Gus you did not get outsmarted by this woman. You got outsmarted by a disorder that contains random elements... .  I think that being an attorney must be very challenging; my best friend in college went to duke law school and makes 300k a year... .  I am just scraping by making peanuts... .  working on building a software company. The attorney life direction seems kind of nice right now my grandfather was a very accomplished trial attorney. My best friends in France were law students and I loved their advice and fair-mindedness.

I carry a picture of something my elementary school teacher wrote about me... .  this is before I started getting messed with by my parents because I was too young to be a threat to my mother's vice grip on the rest of the family. It said something about me being really smart and the best speller and all of that, but what really impressed her the most was how fair I wanted things to be for everybody.

I shared this with my T, and I told her it reminded me of how well people thought of me. I loved this teacher, she was british and read us roald dahl and was like a female version of mrs. doubtfire, just incredible. She had nothing bad to say about me. No complaints. Very different from the depiction my parents give me as a child. My  mom was president of the PTA, no wonder I wasn't good enough for her... .  wait, why was that again? Because I bopped some kid on the head in preschool for saying that alphabet wrong? How embarrassing for her.

In any case, my mom probably has nBPD or NPD and so it would make sense that i am craving a PD woman's push/pull behavior and want to be in that pull state that makes both my exwBPD and myself uncomfortable. I felt pulled on... .  

I told my T that there is a difference between being smothered and being pulled on... .  she asked me to describe the feeling of each that helped. I felt more comfortable being pulled on by my ex wBPD, than i did feeling smothered by other women... .  can't breathe with some of the other women i'd dated who didn't have BPD.

i forgot what that feels like... .  to push away a woman. It happened in my other relationships. It didn't happen very often in this one, and if it did... .  i was sure to suffer. It is easy to see how the pattern is attractive to me, because again it reminds me of being a child. i wasn't allowed to reject my mother... .  it would hurt her feelings too much... .  so I had to just be nice to her so she wouldn't get hurt or upset with me. It was way too much responsibility for me as a child... .  I had to always worry about hurting mom's feelings by not being needy the way she kept my dad and sister by her push/pull. I think my sister has some pretty strong borderline traits. Tattoo on wrist that says "i love myself" ... .  dont talk to her either... .  

I hate being rejected... .  but on some unconscious level i craved it. Being rejected within a relationship felt safer than being rejected outside of a relationship... .  it is hard for me to get in touch with my deep unconscious and be completely self aware... .  i think a lot of other people could mistake my level of self-awareness for craziness... .  but nope I am just self aware of exactly how my conditioning as a child plays out in my adult life... .  it is insane to me that more people are not shocked by it on a daily basis. All this self-psychology has been a trip.

People think I am on the wrong board, but as a classically trained mathematician, I recognize these patterns in relationships just as I recognize the patterns in code in the 200000 line software application that I have been developing while engaging in this relationship. I can say with certainty that if i went to grad school and had different social mirroring there is 100% no way i would have maintained this rs for 4 years and it would have been more like 1 or 2 tops, it's hard for me to say and I'm not comparing with anybody else who has been in one for 10-20, etc... My social isolation contributed to the effectiveness of her gaslighting abilities, because I had no firm basis in reality to really understand exactly how twisted her thinking was. Her ability to listen to what i was saying to other people, and weave what she heard weeks later in to a conversation or argument was absolutely staggering. Her mind had some sort of ability to track these random bits of conversation and inject them in to whatever manipulation her dysfunction was trying to instantiate. Living with her was a nightmare... .  I didn't last 4 weeks before i was completely unconscious and a non-person.

I was 24 or 25 when I met her at a new year's party... .  and it seemed too good to be true. That is another red flag... .  i dont think most successful relationships start out like that... .  it's always something boring... .  like my sister introduced us. Or we met on match.com... .  sigh.

Oh well, I can either have a good story... .  or I can go to france and meet a french attorney chick, (definitely my type), oh wait that's a good story... .  a much better one.

This BPD rs was a farce. Maybe it was a neccesary part of my childhood that got put off until my mid-late twenties, and now I can go live my thirties... .  which are the new twenties, and I can actually have a good time and meet some quality women who do not seem too good to be true.

The type of woman i could see myself being very good friends with.(well i guess that was my exwBPD)

Well my friends kind of suck right now(expressed in separate posts). I don't have much to offer other than my friendship... .  I miss my buddy from college, guess you'll have to suffice Gus, I could do a lot worse. Here's to the much better story of the women we will be with sometime in the future that not only restore our trust, but do so in a way that takes no conscious effort on our part... .  because with our experience, we will know when somebody's legit. You have to believe that.

My belief that i was too trusting caused me to be mistrustful... .  when the only person you really ever have to trust is yourself... .  if you trust yourself, then you can trust others easily... .  so when we know that we will be able to detect such pathological behavior if it occurs in the future, than we actually have a new tool in our belt to judge people who we let get close. Sounds kind of harsh... .  but oh well, our future mates will be happy we were selective when we choose them!

[Iced]

Just a thought:

A pwBPD when they are in the happy-happy extreme side of things where they idealize and put people on pedestals (whether they want to be there or not) can be the most self-affirming people out there and will fight by your side until the cows come home.  In this period of time, the person they are fighting for can do no wrong, no matter WHAT the wrong is, and they will even find every excuse to excuse the wrong.

On the other hand, the opposite can also completely and absolutely true and once you're on their 'bad side', all of that heaping of praise and whatever turns into a tidal wave of garbage, filth, hate, and general negativity.  In this time period, the person that was once 'perfect' is now the monster and is the worst person in the world and just like they were once willing to fend for you, now they will attack you at full force and won't hesitate to pull out all stops.

If you desire self-validation and enjoy being praised, during the 'good times' of your relationship with the pwBPD, you may feel like you're at the top of the world.

If you enjoy something like that, it would be entirely too easy to get 'charmed' by the pwBPD during their 'good times' - sexual appeal and whatever else not even being taken into consideration.

Also, during said 'good times' the pwBPD is probably also more willing to do things they perhaps normally might not in an effort to try and tie you up with them stronger and tighter in a misguided effort to fight abandonment and attachment issues.  During this time, the pwBPD can seem overly effusive - overly 'giving', overly 'selfless'... .  and overly sexual, etc, too.

As much negativity as there can be, the perceived 'positives' can be just as strong and this can be a powerful attraction for some people. 

[GustheDog]

Yep, there's some strange obsession with what's "fair" or "just" that has clearly driven my career path and, more generally, me, for as long as I can remember.  I like the advocacy/counselor hat I wear as a litigator, but my favorite professional experience has been clerking for a federal judge.  You get to review both parties' arguments, conduct your own independent research, and explain your decision in a well-written opinion.  I like that a bit more than the hired-gun role I play now, but only a little.  :)uke has a fine law school - I visited back when I was applying.  I ended up somewhere much colder.

My father was arbitrary.  With everything - praise, punishment, mood, silence, you name it.  So I was conditioned for that since I was old enough to form independent thoughts.  He also projected blame - for everything.  Conditioned for that as well.  Everything was my fault, I was lazy, stupid, didn't "use my head," and a litany of other very nasty things that no small child should ever hear.  I wasn't really ever physically abused, but I think that's mostly just because he's a tremendous coward, rather than anything deserving of moral credit.

You described your view of "smothered," but I didn't catch an explanation for being "pulled-on"?

I've pushed many women away - I almost pushed my ex away.  I remember thinking about what I was going to do - we had gone on several dates, I liked her, but there were some things that bothered me.  I decided to stick it out, and watch to see if the bothersome things continued.  They didn't, and things went well and I began to feel pretty great about our relationship.

And I did go to grad school and that clearly didn't do anything to prevent my BPD r/s.  But I do see your point.  I was rather socially isolated at that time, too.  But it was nevertheless a high point for me in terms of self-confidence and direction in life.  I was in good spirits.  I was socially isolated - somewhat - for a couple reasons.  One is that it's just sort of the nature of the beast.  Class and reading kept me busy 10-12 hours/day, plus a workout, meals, and maybe an hour of leisure and that's all she wrote.  Also, I did not care for my classmates much.  As a group, not a very nice bunch.  I grew up in suburbs in the midwest and that's a very different environment than that which I'd just entered.  Most of my classmates actually had backgrounds very similar to my ex (from one of the coasts, monied, entitled - it felt kind of strange that I was as much of a walking stereotype to many of them as they were to me).  Because I knew my ex's background but did not perceive such undesirable characteristics in her personality, I found her to be a breath of fresh air.  Too bad she turned out to be the worst one of them all.

Probably a month before she turned hater, I remember an experience that bothered me a lot.  Some event for new associates at my firm.  We're driving there and she's complaining about being hungry - she gets very moody when she's hungry.  I tell her that we're almost there and it will be fully catered by the best place in town.  We get there and, interestingly, she goes for the wine before the food.  But then she gets a "plate" (she eats like a bird) and we sit down to eat.  Her mood seems to be improving, so I rub her back and ask her if she's "full now."  She gets a disgusted look on her face and recoils, as though my remark was intended to scold her for eating too much.  We are sitting, and having conversation, with the MANAGING PARTNER of my law firm and his wife.  I saw his wife, a noted women's-rights activist, ROLL HER EYES and look away.  My ex made me look like a chauvinistic pig in front of these people who pay my salary.  Later, on our way out, I thanked her for coming to this thing with me and said it meant a lot.  On the drive home she starts rage-complaining about something and actually said, "You didn't even thank me for going to this with you."  I told her that I thought there was something wrong with her memory because things like that happened all the time.  Then came the tears and I felt like a bad person again.

But that wasn't the first time, or even the worst hater-preview (I see now that she gave me little tastes here and there of what would eventually happen - I was blind).  We went to a wedding once, near the middle of our relationship.  She was very disappointed with me for the following "reasons": I was supposed to come in on Friday night, but I missed my flight.  I got the first one out the next morning and made sure I'd arrive in plenty of time for the scheduled events.  When I called to tell her about the delay, she flipped out.  It makes sense now that this was a perceived "abandonment."  At the reception, I was apparently "socially awkward" and she was very upset that I didn't care to dance with her during a certain song.  

This was September 2011, and it was a stand-out incident.  It was a little glimpse of the hater phase, but it went away after that night (for an entire year, interestingly enough).  Anyway, still at the reception, she'd rage, then ignore me and walk away from me.  I ended up just standing in this place alone, feeling uncomfortable, not really knowing what to do.  Then, we made our way to the hotel - she's still ignoring me.  I'm at the desk getting our room keys, and I look over to see her, drunk, flirting with other dudes from the wedding party, who are also drunk.  I walk towards the elevators with our bags and wave the keys at her.  She gets this disgusted look on her face, sighs audibly, and pulls herself away from these guys and we get on the elevator.  I ask her what the hell she thinks she's doing.  I'm a little pissed off.  Then we get to the room and she starts crying and telling me how terrible and disappointing I am - I say, look, I'm in my final semester of law school, and it wasn't easy to find the time and money to pull myself away from that to fly out to DC to attend the wedding of people I've never even met - I'd think you'd appreciate that and just be glad I'm here with you.  Nope - no understanding.  As I'm typing this, I really see that this was the hater, I don't know how she managed to tuck it away for an entire year after this, but she did.

[Maryiscontrary]

I hope you guys honestly do not take this the wrong way, but I see some pretty strong N traits on this thread.

[stoic83]

Hey Mary I agree with you about the N traits... .  Gus and I both had NPD parents... .  so you can imagine how narcissistic wounded we are. It affects people differently, but empathy for Gus comes easy to me... .  he didn't ask for an NPD parent, and he didn't ask to be involved with such a disturbed woman.

Surely, Gus and I both have faults... .  but you can see that we are upset with people around us. I share Gus's feelings about his friends in law school to some extent... .  my friend in college, the one who went to law school and makes 300k a year was one of the most admirable people I have ever met in my life. He was humble, made fun of socrates with me, from new mexico... .  yet he was just down to earth.

I'm not saying I am down to earth like my friend, but I thought he was going to be supreme court justice... .  Gus is clearly struggling to maintain any sense of "down to earth" in his current profession and lifestyle. He went to school with extremely wealthy and tainted peers who were most likely snobbish and callous, and Gus found a way to make it through... .  he thought he had found a diamond in the rough... .  

So i can relate to that. I went to a richy private school when I was in 9th and 10th grade. My parents wern't as wealthy as the other kids' parents... .  in fact we were probably some of the poorer kids at the school. This did not bode well for me socially... .  one and a half years later I ended up at an inner-city public school that was diverse. I was friendly with everyone who was not overtly cruel. Believe it or not, there was a lot more quality, down-to-earth, people at the inner-city public school where my race was the minority.

I also went to a middle school that was for "gifted children" in my school district. I was in the top classes at this school that I was forced in to... .  my classmates had soda pop glasses 3 inches thick, were obssessed with japanese cartoons, or star trek... .  I think the kids at this school had a lot of psychological problems. I used to let the other kids punch me until I was black and blue... .  it felt really good to be hit, and not so good to go home and be mentally tortured by my high functioning but extremely narcissistic parents. I tried to run away several times.

So you can see, that I can relate to Gus... .  as my therapist says to me:

"It is okay to be judgemental, it is okay to be selfish about your relationship partner, and friendships."

But it infuriates me, how narcissitic people are when choosing their mate.

I need a 6 foot 1 man, why?

I need a woman who is in shape, why?

It seems that most people are more concerned with their mate being an extension of themselves... .  this is how I have felt in my relationship, objectified for my intelligence and accolades... .  or even looks, when I was with a less attractive woman.

I have women tell me "you are cuter than I am" I have always dated down... .  maybe not looks-wise, but intelligence-wise, taste-wise? Etc.

I am what I am... .  I am somewhat of a renaissance man and have a genius IQ. It is not my fault I am different. I smoke marijuana everyday to dumb myself down so that I can fit in.

99/100 people I talk to are not going to be on my level, and 1 out of 10 of those people might really connect with me intellectually speaking.

In fact, I never talk about any of this because I am ashamed of the reality of the situation. I did not ask for this intelligence... .  it seems to play against me most of the time. I don't seem to like hanging out with other cerebrals, because most of them are extremely pompous.

This might be gus and i puffing up our chests a little bit, because we have probably always felt left out of peer groups that were supposed to be "full" of people like us, when in fact these other people are actually in a lot of cases, more sinister and socially maladapted... .  while all of us are inside studying, other people are outside playing... .  enjoying the fruits of our labor.

Society is no different than a herd. The strong take care of the weak... .  look at the tax system.

Clearly Gus and I are narcissisticly wounded, and these wounds manifest themselves in different ways.

If I met someone with NPD or BPD who lived their life with integrity, I would absolutely have no problem with them whatsoever. It is not the illness I have a problem with, it is the lack of integrity in their actions... .  their lack of love and respect.

Does that make sense? People can't change the past... .  but they can work with what they have to be the best person they can be and work towards a meaningful rs.


I am a co-narcissist. That means I like to take care of narcissists while they abuse me and take advantage of me. So essentially, I will be a victim of narcissists for the rest of my life... .  

Me, Im puffing out my chest a bit with Gus. I need some healthy N traits, and to diminish my unhealthy N traits... .  and I need some healthy codependent traits, and to diminish patterns of being overly loving with someone who doesn't deserve it.

I speak all 5 languages of love, so I know I can be in a loving relationship... .  but sometimes friends can help balance eachother out a bit... .  as long as these are respectful friendships with empathic statements, even if it seems like gus and I are a couple of cerebral narcissists... .  

My mom has unBPD or uNPD and she told me I was a narcissist. My mom was projecting her narcissism on to me.

My mom was never self-aware, and never apologized to me. We were all just extensions/posessions to her.

I am definitely not like that, Mary... .  thank goodness.

In fact I stay away from my family: my sister works in hollywood, my mom is nuts, my dad is abusive and getting senile.

They are all very narcissist and you would never find them on this board, I can tell you that much.

True narcissists don't think there is anything wrong with them.

I can truly pat my friend Gus on the back and say that it shows a lot of humility for him to be here... .  hopefully he and I make some changes so that we can form fulfilling relationships that empower both people involved to do great things.

Clearly it is important to Gus and I that we do great things. I don't know why this isn't important to other people.

Einstein said: I am starting to believe that bears are smarter than we are. We spend all of our time providing for our most basic needs: food, shelter, clothing... .  etc. Bears kill only when hungry, they find a cave and that is their home. What do they spend the rest of their time doing? Creative bear ~. Socializing... .  etc.Evolving and learning throughout life.  What are we doing? The grind. Why? Because there are evil people in power, most likely they have NPD and they control us and force us to work our entire lives because they think we need structure... .  to keep us in line.

Can you not see how society is really a prison in this sense? How we are not truly free? That nature is not allowed to run it's course?

If there was not altruistic narcissim then there would be no: Martin Luthur King, Albert Einstein, Ghandi, Lincoln, Washington, united states of america, jewish people on this planet, a black president, women running for president... .  etc.

It is altruistic narcissm that makes all of this possible. The universe does not make this stuff happen. People make this stuff happen. They don't do what they do to be special, but they do have N traits... .  everyone of these guys.

Everybody loved JFK... .  ha! Somatic narcissist to the fullest, marilyn monroe BPD.

[stoic83]

Ask not what your country can do for you, what your can do for your country =

Ask not what I can do for you, what can you do for me?(my country) =

Bottom line is we live in a personality disordered society... .  we all have N traits and B traits and C traits and alpha traits and beta traits and red traits and blue traits... .  it really doesn't matter as long as we treat each other kindly. I am going to care less about other peoples' egos as I move forwards. I am going to do what is best for myself first... .  doesn't seem very altruistic, but it seems that selflessness is a psychological disorder.

If everybody was selfless, than being selfless would be a good thing... .  so it whatever reality we live in, any deviation from the norm is considered to be counter-cultural and perhaps harmful in modern psychology.

Being extremely smart is akin to being mentally ill. I don't have the same life experience as the majority of my peers... .  I am a novelty to them, because we don't live on the same level of consiousness. The level of dissonance I experience on a daily basis, as a result in living in a society which is counter-intuitive and betrays all of the great thinkers concepts of morality and fairness.

I am in pain on a daily basis, due to all the contradictions that I experience on daily basis. I do not find strength in numbers, because someone with my level of awareness is not encouraged in this society.

I am upset and disgusted about what is being thrust in our face by the media and popular culture. I am disgusted by the bi-partisanship in this country... .  what am I doing about it? Nothing. What's the point?

I am a mathematician and I believe that we are becoming stupider as a race as society has become codependent in taking care of the weak and paying for them to have many more children than anyone with a social conscience would ever do on their own power.

There is nothing I can do to stop the force... .  hopefully we figure it out, but unlikely. We have hip-hop starts sitting in the inaugural booth... .  we are pretty screwed.

I see people becoming more shallow and personality disordered as society continues to become more individualistic... .  and big brother continues to push us in to our cages as the collective insanity continues to grow... .  more school shootings, more violent video games, more violent reality tv shows encouraging infidelity and BPD-like behavior, more donald trump "you're fired" shows that everybody loves because they want to see people get humiliated by a narcissist.

Dexter is a popular show, people love watching the creative murder fantasies.

People love violent movies where people get tortured, that's fun... .  that's entertainment.

Everything is a fking insult to my species. you bet I'm pissed. What can I do about it? Nothing.

Is there some good... .  yeah. Are there good films... .  yeah. but popular culture likes crap... .  and the NPDs in power like shoveling us the crap to keep us weak and stupid and to make money with no social consciousness.


The fking learning chanel shows honey boo boo? Are you serious? What the hell happened, and why is nobody doing anything about it... .  

So if I'm a narcissist because I look down on the people who shovel us crap and make us all stupid and treat eachother like crap... .  then so be it. I have no problem with fighting when it is revolutionary. I have a problem with living in a country that lies to it's people and goes to war for oil, based on some twisted lie about us being good and some other civilization being evil.

We all believed this nonsense too. I know people on the inside who tell me the truth. You want the truth, you can't handle the truth.

If I have a PD, because these very rational attitudes are viewed as anti-social or counter productive... .  well I'm not going to apologize any more for caring about society... .  hopefully my criticism and narcissistic traits or whatever bring some awareness to these fundamental problems that I have no influence over at the present moment.

The only thing I can control is myself. However, I can choose to run on auto-pilot like everybody else... .  or I can take the red pill and live among the few... .  

BPD rs was very blue pill... .  after living in a fantasy for 4 years... .  I'm waking up and reality still sucks in these regards.

Stoic

[hithere]

If I met someone with NPD or BPD who lived their life with integrity, I would absolutely have no problem with them whatsoever. It is not the illness I have a problem with, it is the lack of integrity in their actions... .  their lack of love and respect.

It is the disease that makes them like that... .  not sure you will find any (for sure not many) NPD or BPD that live their life with integrity.

As to the rest of your rant... .  I see a lot of stupid (or people with average intelligence) that seem quite happy... .  I don't think the goal of life is to be smart or smarter than anyone else, it is to be happy.

[stoic83]

As to the rest of your rant... .  I see a lot of stupid (or people with average intelligence) that seem quite happy... .  I don't think the goal of life is to be smart or smarter than anyone else, it is to be happy.

What if your happiness or my happiness comes at another's expense. Do you own a pair of Nike sneakers? Because if you do, 8 year old children most likely constructed them with their welted hands... .  at the control of some slave labor sweat shop... .  that barely meets whatever standards imposed on the company (I used to work with a subsidiary for Nike). Everyone there knew about it... .  were they happy, sure. All they care about is themselves. It's not their fault that they support slave labor and human cruelty by working at the company, just as it is not our fault for purchasing the goods so we don't look like chumps in our asics or stride rites.

Ignorance is bliss. Ignorant people don't think about such trivial matters... .  they are more concerned to setting their DVR to dexter so they can watch more killing, or law and order:special victims unit so they can be entertained by child rapists, or watch 20/20 so they can see old people getting beaten up by nurses. This is what intelligent people watch, isn't it? Happy smart people exist too. Hopefully I can focus on something else... .  maybe I should move to an island where it isn't rubbed in my face constantly, and I don't have continually overlook others' lack of awareness who are desensitized to even caring about any of these concepts. Does that make me a narcissist?

I certainly deviate from the norm with my level of awareness. I must be crazy.

[stoic83]

I am what I am... .  I am somewhat of a renaissance man and have a genius IQ. It is not my fault I am different. I smoke marijuana everyday to dumb myself down so that I can fit in.

Seems like my goal is to be stupid. Harmony before truth, right?

[hithere]

What if your happiness or my happiness comes at another's expense. Do you own a pair of Nike sneakers?

I do and I have a bit of a different take on low-paid or child labour in 3rd world countries.  I think it is better they work at Nike for $.50 an hour then have to dig through the local dump for $.50 a day, but I am not sure about this analogy.

Ignorance is bliss. Ignorant people don't think about such trivial matters... .  they are more concerned to setting their DVR to dexter so they can watch more killing, or law and order:special victims unit so they can be entertained by child rapists, or watch 20/20 so they can see old people getting beaten up by nurses. This is what intelligent people watch, isn't it?

We are a product of our society... .  and we are far from perfect.  I know there is a correlation between what we view for entertainment and our moral compasses but the best I can say is we as a society are imperfect.

Happy smart people exist too.

I agree! But sometimes I do wonder if having below average intelligence would allow someone to be happier easier.

Hopefully I can focus on something else... .  maybe I should move to an island where it isn't rubbed in my face constantly, and I don't have continually overlook others' lack of awareness who are desensitized to even caring about any of these concepts. Does that make me a narcissist?

I think you are entitled to feel any way you want but ultimately you are responsible for those feelings.  Maybe an island or a farm or somewhere more isolated would help you find more peace?

I certainly deviate from the norm with my level of awareness. I must be crazy.

Yes you do, but I don't think that makes you crazy... .  just more aware.  Maybe you should focus your energy on trying to change the things you don't like?  Start a club for people that want to make changes, start a blog to share you feelings with like-minded people.  

As a father of a teenage girl it does worry me, the way society is going but I have not found the time nor desire to do much about it outside of my own backyard, if you do then all the power to you.

[stoic83]

What if your happiness or my happiness comes at another's expense. Do you own a pair of Nike sneakers?

I do and I have a bit of a different take on low-paid or child labour in 3rd world countries.  I think it is better they work at Nike for $.50 an hour then have to dig through the local dump for $.50 a day, but I am not sure about this analogy.

Okay i understand how you have justified your purchase, however what if these kids played on your daughter's soccer team?

We are a product of our society... .  and we are far from perfect.  I know there is a correlation between what we view for entertainment and our moral compasses but the best I can say is we as a society are imperfect.

Is it we who are choosing what we are watching, or is it the networks dictating what we are watching. Which came the first the chicken or the egg... .  the sad thing is that other first-world countries look to us for entertainment ideas.

I agree! But sometimes I do wonder if having below average intelligence would allow someone to be happier easier.

I think that if you were in the 1% of intelligence you would be equally as unhappy as somebody in the 99%. However the person in the 99% should be grateful for his abilities to reprogram himself to be happier. I told my Uncle the psychologist that it was a goal to reduce my depression, and he suggested that it should be a goal to be happy! That I am not looking on the positive side of things. I guess he is right... .  

I am aware that i am debbie downer, negative nancy and that nobody wants to be around me right now... .  but should I change how I am feeling right now to be more popular... .  probably not. That seems to be a lot of people's problem.

Hopefully I can focus on something else... .  maybe I should move to an island where it isn't rubbed in my face constantly, and I don't have continually overlook others' lack of awareness who are desensitized to even caring about any of these concepts. Does that make me a narcissist?

I think you are entitled to feel any way you want but ultimately you are responsible for those feelings.  Maybe an island or a farm or somewhere more isolated would help you find more peace?

Telling me to go move to an island wasn't what I was hoping for. Isn't it valuable for somebody with my social consciousness to be here to promote more awareness? Do you really want to be rid of me? I'm not asking you to beg me to stay, but are you playing devil's advocate here because I am being over dramatic?

Yes you do, but I don't think that makes you crazy... .  just more aware.  Maybe you should focus your energy on trying to change the things you don't like?  Start a club for people that want to make changes, start a blog to share you feelings with like-minded people.  

As a father of a teenage girl it does worry me, the way society is going but I have not found the time nor desire to do much about it outside of my own backyard, if you do then all the power to you.

I am sorry that must be stressful for you... .  it is accepting that we can not change these things that will bring us true fulfillment. I am projecting some of my own anger on to society because it's a safer place for my criticisms right now... .  I am sure it will come back to myself and will be more pleasant after looking in to the bad mirror until it turns normal again. I truly hope that your daughter will fare well, but it seems like she has a level-headed parent, so she should be in pretty good shape!

Until then... .  I am trying to express my frustrations on here and how this relationship has compounded my social alienation and it is coming out in some pretty strange ways... .  I am sure I am trying to overcompensate for some childhood wounds about feeling left out or different... .  putting it all on the table for everyone to see. your feedback is valuable!

[Maryiscontrary]

Well I had an extremely N father, and N brother as well. Is there a way you can sit and observe your emotions without commentary?

I say this because I am having trouble undertanding the content of the posts on this thread. I know you guys just want to be heard, but I am sincerely having trouble understanding y'all. Is there a way you can sum up your feelings in 100 words or less?

[hithere]

Telling me to go move to an island wasn't what I was hoping for. Isn't it valuable for somebody with my social consciousness to be here to promote more awareness? Do you really want to be rid of me? I'm not asking you to beg me to stay, but are you playing devil's advocate here because I am being over dramatic?

Hahaha, not trying to get rid of you but you mentioned that as an option.  Did you say it so we could tell you to please not leave or do you think there is a chance you might be happier if isolated for a short/long time?  I would like you here because you have a well stated opinion, I might not agree with it but if people don't have dialog then how can you solve problems.

however what if these kids played on your daughter's soccer team?

I don't think child labour is good, especially in 2nd or 1st world countries (I live in Canada) but I still think in 3rd world countries it can be better than the alternative.

I think that if you were in the 1% of intelligence you would be equally as unhappy as somebody in the 99%.

That is a big chasm but generally speaking I do wonder if it takes less to make a less intelligent person happy.  They have less worries on their mind because life is more simple?

[stoic83]

Well I had an extremely N father, and N brother as well. Is there a way you can sit and observe your emotions without commentary?

I say this because I am having trouble undertanding the content of the posts on this thread. I know you guys just want to be heard, but I am sincerely having trouble understanding y'all. Is there a way you can sum up your feelings in 100 words or less?

Well I had an extremely N father, and N brother as well. Is there a way you can sit and observe your emotions without commentary?

I say this because I am having trouble undertanding the content of the posts on this thread. I know you guys just want to be heard, but I am sincerely having trouble understanding y'all. Is there a way you can sum up your feelings in 100 words or less?

My sister has I love myself tatooed on her wrist, is on Bravo tv shows, and dates celebrities? Is that narcissist, borderline? Who knows... all i know is she blamed me for her suicide attempt. I loved my sister, I stood up for her when people made anti-semite slurs to her... .  I got beat up for her. Who does she blame... .  me. She used to tell me to do things when i was a kid, like pee in the basement, and then i would get my parents rage and she would stand back with a sadistic smile. Get me to help her throw the dog down the stairs when I was like 5? Accept in my family women were never wrong... .  men were all chauvinists and I was the scapegoat... .  my dad was miserable, my mom gave him no love and my dad worshipped her like a queen. He took out all his repressed anger on me, I never once saw him raise his voice towards her. My mom and sister loved to humiliate me... .  

But where is the borderline in all of this? Maybe it's my dad... .  desperate to please my mom? I definitely identify with my mom more than my dad... .  but my dad is the one who was most abused and neglected by my mom so maybe im more like him?

So i dont know how to label my family. My mom gave me a book on narcissism, but my T said my mom sounds like a stereotypical narcissist and that I am mildly neurotic and come from an enmeshed family. That was the diagnosis after like 6 months.

I am struggling to find healthy N traits... .  because I always put myself in bad situations with narcissitic people. I am more of a people pleaser... .  co narcissist. I think the first T was trying to encourage healthy N... .  i hang around Narc's because I lack the self-praise... .  my parents were so critical of me that i underperformed to make their projections towards me true... .  I am bitter and angry with them for treating me so poorly and not even apologizing... .  my mom's way of apologizing was making my dad verbally abuse me, and then shaming him for it... .  making him apologize.

It was disgusting.

So I can relate to the N opposite parent, and the N sibling... .  except I'm a dude.


Gus and I are actually very different. I am HSP, (highly sensitive person) I am very sensitive to any criticism and I try to never hurt anybody's feelings... .  i even have stayed in relationships with women I wasn't attracted to because I felt so guilty about not being attracted to them... .  in the end I told her it made me "sad that I wasn't attracted to her. I felt terribly guilty for offending this woman I cared about, but didn't want to be with indefinitely" So to an average woman that might sound like I am a jerk... .  but really I stay away from women because I don't want to feel indebted to staying with them forever, because i empathize with them and don't want to hurt them... .  especially if they have abandonment fears and everyone else abandons them.

Gus and I are similar to the extent that we are overvalued for our extrinsic qualities, and undervalued for our intrinsic qualities. We thought we found women who loved us for who we were inside... .  but really we were completely mistaken. The purest thing we have ever felt, was a complete farce... .  we thought we found someone with a tough childhood who has been mistreated by society and we wanted to have a positive story and happy ending.

It makes us both feel really angry for being manipulated in such a seemingly cruel way. My N parents were both brutally honest with me about all of my faults... .  and my sister's (nose job at 14 so other kids wouldnt make fun of her). I thought it was disgusting to teach my sister such a terrible lesson.

In any case, I am relating to gus... .  we both have a degree in philosophy and we are discussing how our deeper level of social consciousness has caused us all types of problems in relating to other people, and that we thought we found fulfillment in this rs... .  and felt very close to this person, only to realize that it is a complete hoax... .  and completely irrational.

I am sad. I am angry. I am projecting. I want to be more healthily narcissistic so that i stand up for myself... .  I do not want to enable people I care about with PDs to continue mistreating me, and I will end any relationship that violates my boundaries, ethics, and morals going forward.

I am blaming society... .  because I am done blaming her. This is a safe place for my projections right now... .  eventually they will shift towards myself... .  and I can start healing myself. This is an ugly part of it, and perhaps seeing things from the other side of the coin (me having an NPD or nBPD mother and ?PD father and ? N traits/nBPD? sister has affected me as a man.

It isn't pretty I am a complete door mat... .  and I hide it well to protect myself from "all the girls who are after me for my money (i am broke)." or every woman i meet is "too controlling"... .  or "ugly or disgusting", "not smart enough". My mom couldn't let me go... .  what a selfish human. Pretty messed up that my mom was like this right?

No wonder Im attracted to women who play with my heart and are irrational and controlling. It's just unconscious defense mechanisms but that doesn't stop it from hurting so badly... .  a painful reminder that I was never good enough for my own mother... .  and yet at the same time she asks why Im not "like the football players on tv who thank their mom". Nope. I prefer to thank my mom when I am feeling like this.

Thanks Mom. Thanks for being in the 1 percentile of women that act like abusive men that they pretend to hate. I'm done with this game.

[Maryiscontrary]

Can you set with your emotions without commentary. You seem so very, very tired. All of the long worded posters on this thread seem mentally exhausted.


Is there a way you can attunate the fight or flight adrenaline response, at least for just a little while?

[stoic83]

100 words or less

Sorry. My screen name was supposed to be ironic.

I am really sad, angry and upset about many things.

I feel unbalanced right now.

I feel like i'm trying to overcompensate for something.

I feel safe here, like I can let out some thoughts without being judged.

I like being empathetic to all of you guys, because it is healthier than being empathetic towards my exwBPD.

I feel some comraderie with the people here, and although i feel isolated and alienated i do feel good sharing and hearing what you guys have to say. I don't expect anybody to read through my crap... .  but those who do might take something away from it. Maybe some understanding for the N's in your life that will help you find some peace... .  and accepting them for what they are... .  realizing that you can help them by pointing out their intrinsic worth, because that is what they care about beneath all the veils of extrinsic worth. Maybe this will help you break the cycle... .  us break the cycle? We are all in this together Mary... .  i have warm hopes for you in your recovery from this painful relationship. I hope you are taking very good care of yourself. I hope you are being a bit selfish. You absolutely deserve it. You deserve good things Mary... .  you deserve to be with somebody who wants good things for you. You deserve to be with somebody who sees you in grey... .  because you are amazing just the way you are... .  co-narcissist traits and all.

Big Hugs for you my long lost sister!

Is that 100 words? Lol

[GustheDog]

Gus is clearly struggling to maintain any sense of "down to earth" in his current profession and lifestyle. He went to school with extremely wealthy and tainted peers who were most likely snobbish and callous, and Gus found a way to make it through... .  he thought he had found a diamond in the rough... .  

That' the crux of it.

In fact, I never talk about any of this because I am ashamed of the reality of the situation. I did not ask for this intelligence... .  it seems to play against me most of the time. I don't seem to like hanging out with other cerebrals, because most of them are extremely pompous.

This might be gus and i puffing up our chests a little bit, because we have probably always felt left out of peer groups that were supposed to be "full" of people like us, when in fact these other people are actually in a lot of cases, more sinister and socially maladapted.

Yup.  We're also taught that the mere mention of one's own intellectual gifts is an arrogant, selfish, narcissistic, *shameful* thing.  There's really no other place to have this discussion, and I'm quite relieved to see that I'm not the only one with these thoughts.  Yet, even here, we have been judged - called the N word, even.  And that's probably why we don't ever express this stuff.  It's never safe to do so, even in the safest place of all (here).

I'm not fishing for compliments or attention - I'm lonely, even when in a crowded room, and I need someone to talk to.  It seems I've found a fairly kindred spirit in stoic here, and for that I'm glad.  And if we wish to prattle on in one thread on a site with thousands, I think that's just fine.

I wasn't good enough for my father, stoic wasn't good enough for his mother.  Unlike a malignant narcissist, however, we don't use people - we let them use us as we endlessly try to compensate for our core injuries by "proving" our worth to others. 

We thought we found women who loved us for who we were inside... .  but really we were completely mistaken. The purest thing we have ever felt, was a complete farce... .  we thought we found someone with a tough childhood who has been mistreated by society and we wanted to have a positive story and happy ending.

On the money again.  It's amazing how much anxiety I carry around, how much energy goes into filtering every statement before it's made, how routine social interactions are incredibly exhausting for me.  I thought I'd finally found one person with whom I could totally relax, and not have to worry about being judged or criticized or shamed.

To see that I could be so easily discarded by this person who claimed to care for (intrinsic) me so very deeply is a crushing confirmation of what has always been my reality - I'm just not good enough.

Intellectually, I know this is bogus.  But that doesn't change how it feels. 

It's interesting.  I've always been afraid to be 100% honest - about my thoughts, my fears, etc.  To the point of being very reluctant a lot of the time to even talk about my life because I fear that others won't be able to relate and will ultimately see me as an a$$, or worse - a "narcissist."  I end up being apologetic for my successes, my intelligence, and my opinions. 

That's how it's been my whole life.  And I'm just not okay with that anymore.  Here I am - take me or leave me.  I'm so tired of molding myself to be "better" for someone else, and I'm tired of being told I'm "bad" for just doing what I do and being who I am.

And that's why I'm here - on this board - *not* filtering myself.

If I met someone with NPD or BPD who lived their life with integrity, I would absolutely have no problem with them whatsoever. It is not the illness I have a problem with, it is the lack of integrity in their actions... .  their lack of love and respect.

And I agree with hithere that having integrity and having a personality disorder are mutually exclusive attributes.

[Maryiscontrary]

Well, if you can heal, then you realize you do not need validation from anybody. People do not want to hear me boast of my attributes. I want to connect, not distance people. I do things to enhance myself, not to show one upmanship. As ~ty as this sounds, I could give a rats ass about telling other people my information. If they want to take the time to get to know me, then these things will passively come out. And everybody has beautiful qualities. Everyone has a special gift or talent that will make your jaw drop.

And especially if they have not been corrupted by advanced education, their humility is often very humbling.

[stoic83]

Well, if you can heal, then you realize you do not need validation from anybody. People do not want to hear me boast of my attributes. I want to connect, not distance people. I do things to enhance myself, not to show one upmanship. As ~ty as this sounds, I could give a rats ass about telling other people my information. If they want to take the time to get to know me, then these things will passively come out. And everybody has beautiful qualities. Everyone has a special gift or talent that will make your jaw drop.

And especially if they have not been corrupted by advanced education, their humility is often very humbling.

A couple of things bother me about this post.

1) Gus and I badly need validation. I can only speak for myself when I say that I am highly validating to other people, because I would like some myself. Didn't hear Gus and I say that we were lonely, and it was nice to meet somebody who understands?

2) My mother told me i was a narcissist, only to find out through intensive therapy that my mother is a stereotypical narcissist and was projecting her narcissism on to me... .  which is something that narcissists do. I am not a narcissist, I am just stuck in some projective identification. Imagine having a narcissist for a parent, and you do things like teach yourself how to read... .  I was supposed to be an extension of my mother! How dare I don't need her!

3) What you are doing right now, is showing one upmanship. You are mistaking my repressed healthy narcissism that I was never allowed to have as unhealthy narcissism.  You are projecting your narcissism on to me just as my mother and sister did. You are projecting your toxic shame on to gus and I and I don't appreciate it. I just sent you a very nice message and you crapped all over it.

4) I am not here to subtly get to know people. I am here to bare all... .  let the skellies out the closet, find some camaraderie in the very dark place I have found myself as a result of this relationship.

5) I don't speak to my N parents or my N sister, but one day I would like to. One day I would like to be able to look beyond the disorder that most likely has evolved from an abusive childhood. I used to be very protective of my mother, her father was a narcissist... .  a prominent attorney.

6) If Gus and I were not intrinsicly strong, then we would not have been able to resist the strong propensity to become NPD like our parents (his father, my mother). You would think that you would relate to Gus and I.

7) My sister is a fake celebrity wanna be and she probably would call me a narcissist. I suggest you take a look in the mirror, Mary... .  see if you aren't yourself a bit contrary. Why are you so angry with Gus and I, is it because we remind you of your Dad and Brother, or is it because you want to puff out your chest a bit too. Forget the right way to act... .  no way you had an NPD dad and brother and escaped without narcissistic wounds. I used to shun other people too... .  I could've shunned Gus, Gus could've shunned me... .  but clearly if we were both narcs we would secretly dislike eachother, because we are threats to one another. I can tell you this is clearly not the case. I have warm feelings for Gus, and I have warm feelings for myself.

Mary... .  you remind me of myself 4 years ago. Take a look in the bad mirror some more... .  I appreciate you striving to act with humility, and trying to teach Gus and I a lesson or two... .  but this is not the place nor the time. I was HUMILIATED in this relationship. Please let me regrow my testicles, Mary. Please let me go through the process of becoming a "real boy" again. Nobody deserves this... .  and if Gus and I want to boast and support each other, and be honest with one another and bare all for you guys to see then maybe you will learn a thing or two, once you decide how you want to label either of us.

If you dont have anything nice to say, don't say it here. We are not insulting any one person... .  we are not singling any one person out. We are howling at the moon... .  we don't fit in. It sucks! Does that make me PD or super narcissistc? NO!

Does it mean that it would have been better if i had parents who properly praised me, instead of having parents who destroyed any healthy narcissism I had? The wounds manifest themselves not only in myself, but in Gus, and also in you Mary. We are all in this together. I don't think I am better than anybody else, this is just how I feel.

And I am a huge fan of yours Mary. Seriously.

Stoic

[stoic83]

And on that topic... .  

My exwBPD would not let me have any healthy narcissm. I had to minimalize every little thing I did, otherwise she would label me as codependent or inauthentic, triggering her abandonment fear that I would leave her. She would actually play little tricks on me to see how firmly she had me wrapped around her finger. She did things to keep me in line. My lack of healthy narcissism is what kept me in this relationship. I saw my dad: never care about himself, everything he did was for my mom, he did not love me it would threaten my mom; once I saw my mom was much more powerful than my dad. I started to resent my dad... .  I treated my dad badly as well. This was how my mom abused us... .  she got us all to abuse eachother. My dad loved to take it out on me... .  after all I made him look even more foolish and cowardly, by disrespecting him to impress my mom. My mom loved to talk bad about my dad to me... .  tell me what a doofus he is, and how she married him for security... .  My mom loved the attention she got for my giftedness, she loved the attention she got for my curls... .  my mom hated the attention I got for my giftedness, my mom hated the attention I got for my curls.

You understand now?

Remember in Titanic, when leo says "Im the king of the world?" (pop culture reference for all of my conformist friends)

I think I am due.

Stoic

[Maryiscontrary]

My sincere apologies, but I never intended any of what you said above. I tell you what, let's just end this conversation, as I do not intend to shame or hurt anybody. Take care, mary

[GustheDog]

Stoic - the more you discuss your mother, the more N I see in my ex. I've been very reluctant to give her that label, mostly because she was so needy, insecure, emotional, and needed excessive caretaking. But other things about her are so classically NPD that they are tough to ignore. I wonder if she could be both NPD/BPD in spite of the neediness?

[stoic83]

Stoic - the more you discuss your mother, the more N I see in my ex. I've been very reluctant to give her that label, mostly because she was so needy, insecure, emotional, and needed excessive caretaking. But other things about her are so classically NPD that they are tough to ignore. I wonder if she could be both NPD/BPD in spite of the neediness?

Hey Gus, if you recall I thought your ex sounded more N... .  my ex was BPD initially, and nBPD/sociopathic? in the end. Her mental illness worsened and if her personality was a record it was skipping a lot.

In any case, higher functioning BPD is different... .  I read somewhere that hfBPD is actually NPD like 95% of the time. It was an interesting theory... .  NPDs do not self harm, they project outwardly. NPDs can hold down extremely challenging jobs, etc... .  People w lf BPD can not. They have severe abandonment anxiety and they attach to complete strangers. They have no boundaries whatsoever.

I believe I have a male friend with hfBPD. He is a very likable person, but he seems to have an endless conquest for female attention but he just is hot/cold with them. He was on the 10 year college plan... .  can't seem to hold anything down... .  until lately. I'm not sure, he could not have a pd at all... .  maybe just strong traits. He acts like a child with women... .  the behavior seems pathological. He talks like a little boy around them? He's raged on me a few times... .  but mostly when drunk, and now he's 5 years sober and in grad school... so I don't know.

I think my sister has very strong borderline traits.

1) She has "I love myself" tatooed on her wrist.

2) She attempted suicide as a teenager.

3) She got a nosejob at 14 years old... .  

4) She used to manipulate me in to getting in trouble.

5) Her facebook page consists of her with celebrities... .  

My sister has always cared a lot about being "famous". Her friends seemed to like me better than her, and she hated me for it. She always loved money and conformist celebrity nonsense.

Does this sound more N or B? All i know is that she hates me... .  not surprising since she clearly hates her self. Why put that on your wrist for the whole world to see? That you are a professional victim? My sister is pathetic. Shame.

My mother was the man in the relationship. My dad was very successful strong, tall and had a deep voice... .  but he was terrified of my mom. He would wince and flinch while she hit him. My dad would never hit a woman... .  

My dad never once raised his voice to my mother. My dad acted like a child around her. I had no respect for him... .  He had no personality... .  my mom made all his decisions. hmm...

My dad hardly even talks ... .  even though he is pretty talkative. My mom says, your dad is quiet. He really isn't though... .  so I don't know what kind of spell she had him under?

I think my mom is probably hfBPD or something... .  I really don't know... .  all I know is that she definitely split me all the time, and my dad let me think that I really was a bad person and didn't even tell me my mom was nuts. That's why I hate my dad the most. He just let me think whatever... .  he didn't seem to care how much she hurt me... .  it was all about her?

What do you think?

Stoic

[GustheDog]

Could be that your dad was just trying his best to mitigate dysfunction in a dysfunctional family. I can see why you're angry and disappointed with him, but, it seems like he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. Your description of your dad reminds me a lot of my ex's father. His life consists of being hated and abused by his wife and three daughters. He is 72 years old, and he has provided them with the best of everything for their entire lives. Yet he is hated, judged, and criticized by every member of his family. He too is a talkative man, but he rarely talks to his family (outside of wiring money into their accounts). He's actually quite a jovial guy, and I've hung out with him a few times alone and he's very funny. He knows by now that things are going to suck at home no matter what he does, but they'll suck a whole lot more if he starts asserting himself, or, really, doing anything other than staying under the radar.

My ex's traits shifted throughout the course of the relationship as well. She was classic BPD during the first 75% of our relationship or so – needy, clinging, insecure, sweet, childlike, etc. But during that final stretch, it seems like she had become pure N - boasting about her importance and the importance of people she associates with, being disgustingly self-centered and self-righteous, dressing in a more revealing manner, putting me down, and just generally behaving as though she had  acquired a sudden sense of superiority, rather than the very outwardly insecure person I had known before.

Finally, she raged outwardly during this period, whereas before it must have been inward only, as I never heard her so much as raise her voice until then.