Missed turns and oranges turning into a nuclear meltdown. suggestions?

[angelica_evil]

Well, as I had posted in other topics, I have been enjoying a week of idealization, aka, the good part of the cycle, after a huge blow out two weekends ago over me having a text conversation with a friend, and the ensuing few days of the silent treatment. We have had a very nice week, an even nicer Valentines Day, and since yesterday, everything just went to hell.

His rages usually start with him waking up angry, and I guess he had been having a bad morning prior to this, according to his mom, but luckily, I wasn't there to get the brunt of it, because I have been making a point to not be with him when he wakes up, as part of my new plan of 'dealing' with his hurtful rages. But, he seemed mostly calm towards me yesterday, so I decided to accompany him and his mother to visit his ailing grandmother (who adores me) in her rehab facility for the day. We get there, and are having a nice visit, when his mother decides that we should order pizza and wings, so grandma can have normal food instead of bland hospital food for once. He was angry with his mom for not wanting to pay for delivery, and instead wanting him to go pick it up, since the pizza place was about 2 miles away only.

I immediately offered to ride with him and run in, since I know he refuses to go inside places (grocery stores, restaurants, etc.), and I didn't want him to ruin the visit by arguing with his mom about it. So we leave, his mother gives us directions to the place, which seemed simple enough. As soon as we get in the car, he demands that i put it into GPS on my phone, and of course, that's when my phone decides to act wonky and not get a signal. So I told him, just follow your mother's directions, we will find it. Apparently, we passed the place, so he starts getting angry and abusive toward me, saying that he asked me to put it in GPS all along, that I am a dope, a stupid B*tch, an airhead, etc. I am reigning all of my hurt and anger in, resisting the urge to lash back at him for not just putting the address into HIS gps all along if it was that important.

Anyway, we back tracked and found the place, I have his mother's debit card and license in my pocket, as i said I would go in to pay, and he is still swearing at me as we park. So I calmly told him, 'yes, I will go in and pick up the pizza, however, you need to apologize for your actions, this is very unfair to me for you to be this nasty.' He then gets utterly uncorked, yelling at me that I will never, ever get an apology from him, who the f**k did I think I was, that he doesn't even want me in his f***ing car, let alone to apologize', etc. So I told him, as you wish. Since I still had his mother's atm card in my pocket, I got out of the car, and proceeded to walk back to the nursing home, I knew it was only about 2 miles away. My plan was to not say a word, since I was overly emotional, get away from him, and give his mother her card back, and then call for a ride from someone without telling his grandmother anything, as to not upset her.

As I am walking back to the nursing home, he is texting me, pretending he didn't see me start walking up the street, asking where I am, saying that "I am ruining his family's meal" that "his grandmother is asking for pizza, and now she can't have it because of me' etc. I made it back to the nursing home about when he did, and just went in and refused to speak to him. His mother and grandmother (who mind you, is currently doped up most of the day, and in and out of awareness) didn't even need an explanation, they totally know how he operates, and his grandmother said, 'J****, you can't be mean to people, that is not the way to be' So his mother just suggested we order delivery from another place, and didn't even bring anything up. The rest of the visit was uneventful, he calmed down, and was being human again. When we were leaving his grandmother asked me and him to come close to her and told me, 'Thank you so much honey and do NOT let my grandson push you around. You don't deserve to be treated like that by him." I kept it simple, and just told her that I know, and don't worry, i won't. She then told him, 'Angelicaevil is such a great person, she is nice to everyone, I am embarrassed that you treated her so badly, and you have to stop it, she doesn't deserve it.' He calmly said, 'yeah, I know, grandma, she is a good girl', but he was very surprised at her lucidness.

We are on our way home, and he is talking about how he wants a few bags of oranges for the juicer, so he can bring his grandma fresh juice the following day. I get a text that it's time for me to bring the truck i borrow back, so I say to just drop me off at my truck, and then go. He starts bugging his mom to go to the store, and she doesn't feel good, and doesn't want to. Since I had planned on just dropping off the truck and coming back to he and his mother's house, I offered to grab them on my way back. His mom seemed grateful and he agreed. While i was en route, he texted and said that he didn't want to wait that long, that he was tired and just going to go to bed, so I told him that I would just go home and talk to him later. He said, 'ok'.

I woke up to him texting me at 5 am today, asking me if I ever stopped and grabbed the oranges. I told him no, why get them and leave them sitting at my house, that I figured I'd just get them on the way to his house this morning, and he absolutely exploded again, calling me a dummy, saying that he and his mom specifically didn't go last night because I said I would, and that i 'ruined his morning already'. I am tired and do not have the patience to deal with his hurtfulness as soon as I wake up, so I am just trying to calmly remind him that he told me not to get them last night, and he is insisting that he never said that, that he just said he was tired, and the implication was that I would go get them last night. His mother sent me a FB message asking if I picked them up, and if not, she would just go get them on her way back from her nail appointment this morning, and I told her no, that she should probably just go get them, because I don't think i can deal with him today. He must have read his mother's message over her shoulder, because he immediately called and said that I was 'just digging my own grave by 'crying to his mother' , and that don't worry, I will get what is coming to me. I immediately hung up the phone without saying a word, and signed off of messenger so he couldn't say another word. His mother sent me another message telling me to just ignore him and his comments, that it's is what she does, and it works.  And this is my plan, as well.

So, now I am not sure if this is going to start yet another silent treatment for a few days, or if I am just going to calmly, and without even speaking to him, take a break from him. I am proud of myself for not losing my composure during any of these arguments, over such silly silly things, and i think i did much better this time around, after reading a lot of the lessons on this board. Sorry for how long this post is, I wanted to paint the whole picture out, that way, if some of you see a different way i should have handled this situation, I am open to suggestions, critique. I'd like to say that perhaps this is the last time I will deal with him, but I know him, and I know when he calms down or shifts his rage to another person, he will be contrite, and I will be right back there. But who knows, we never really know if each argument is really the end, or just part of another cycle again, do we? ;-) Thanks for bearing with me!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Rockylove]

WOW!  Sounds like there's more to it than missed turns and oranges!  Is anything else going on with him right now that may be stressful?  It seems never to be about the oranges... .  it's more likely the apples, but they don't seem to say that 

[Grey Kitty]

Yikes! Sorry to hear you are going through this sort of drama.

Missed turns and oranges are what triggered a couple rages. Don't confuse that with what caused them. The causes are inside his head, and you don't cause them... .  or even have much influence over them!

i think i did much better this time around, after reading a lot of the lessons on this board.

... .  

I am open to suggestions, critique.

I haven't read how you were doing things before, so I can't speak to improvement, but it sounds like you are doing pretty well! 

But there is always a chance to do better. I've got a few thoughts:

1. When his mother / grandmother says that he's not treating your right... .  it is probably true, but the statement is still invalidating to him, and probably makes things worse rather than better. Don't encourage them to say things like this in front of him. But this isn't really something that YOU can do better (or worse). You don't control other people here... .  the best you can do in that sort of situation is quietly let the conversation die or shift it gently into a different direction.

2. Getting out of these arguments (like the gps fight in the car) is about the best thing you can do once they start. It is very hard to take that sort of verbal abuse without responding. Looking back, I don't see that demanding an apology helped.

I would suggest that a more productive approach at that time would have been to enforce a boundary of refusing to accept verbal abuse. I might try something like this:

"I will go in and pick up the pizza. I will not get back in the car for any more verbal abuse. If you do not stop I will walk back."

In the end, you were likely to be walking 2 miles alone anyway, but there is a key difference here:

Demanding an apology is trying to control him. And more importantly, it is something that he can choose to do to make you "happy" or choose not to do to make you "unhappy." Giving him this choice doesn't help you one bit!

Stating that you will not get back in the car for more verbal abuse is a boundary that YOU enforce. His only choice is to be civil with you (perhaps silent, possibly sullen), and have you choose to be with him, or to rage, and have you choose to be away from him.

That is the beauty of a good boundary: You enforce it, he doesn't have to cooperate in any way.

And many people here on this board will tell you that if you consistently enforce boundaries, they (eventually) stop being pushed and tested. First your life improves because enforcing the boundary is better than the mess you used to be in. Second it gets even better because your partner discovers that they don't get what they want when you enforce the boundary. (But watch out for those extinction bursts!)

Let me just say in closing. Keep reading the lessons. Keep working on it. It will help YOU take care of yourself, no matter what else comes of it.

[angelica_evil]

WOW!  Sounds like there's more to it than missed turns and oranges!  Is anything else going on with him right now that may be stressful?  It seems never to be about the oranges... .  it's more likely the apples, but they don't seem to say that 

Well, now that you mention it, he did kind of get a shock to the system the other day. He is 30 years old and has never ever left either of his parents' house. (they divorced 5 years ago) . He normally lives with his father, in a basement bedroom, where he can isolate himself, smoking pot and playing video games all day long. His poor father, who is 72, is beyond disappointed in his son, on top of being so sick of repairing and fixing walls and doors in his house that he destroys in his rages. For the last week, he has been staying with his mother at his grandmother's house while she is in the hospital, because his mom doesn't like to sleep in an empty house alone. His parents still talk daily, and are friends. His mother, while spoiling him rotten, LOVES to wheedle and poke at him whenever she gets the chance, and she informed him that when speaking to his father on the phone that morning, that he expressed that he doesn't want my bf to come back to his house. She gleefully, and with laughter, stated, 'oh, Your father said his stress level is down to a bare minimum now, he is finally enjoying life again, and does NOT want to deal with your drug use, all night long gaming sessions, and taking care of your loser ass anymore!' Why she does this, and puts things so insultingly, is beyond me. But he seemed actually surprised by it.

He then asked his mother, 'well, where do I live then? downstairs in the apartment here?' (they have a fully furnished, unused apartment downstairs at his grandmother's house). She said, 'hell no, not unless you get a job, pay rent, and pay all the utilities, treat it like a normal apartment, and keep a regular schedule.' He got quiet and dazed by this, because he has NEVER had to take care of himself. He left his father's house for two weeks last month after a huge rage and arrest, and stayed with me ten days only, before he imploded at having to buy his own food, figure out his own way to get around, etc. So he knows that staying with me is no longer an option again. He seemed to take that in stride though, and was calm and very nice to me, up until yesterday.

Are you maybe alluding to the fact that he was internalizing this newest development, and in an internal panic over it, and perhaps that is why he ended up exploding on me? I can see that, however, it makes no sense, because he knows that the ONLY person who would remotely help him, baby him, and take care of him if his mother and father won't, is me. But I guess misdirected rage is a hallmark of BPD, so that could be the cause.

[angelica_evil]

2. Getting out of these arguments (like the gps fight in the car) is about the best thing you can do once they start. It is very hard to take that sort of verbal abuse without responding. Looking back, I don't see that demanding an apology helped.

I would suggest that a more productive approach at that time would have been to enforce a boundary of refusing to accept verbal abuse. I might try something like this:

"I will go in and pick up the pizza. I will not get back in the car for any more verbal abuse. If you do not stop I will walk back."

In the end, you were likely to be walking 2 miles alone anyway, but there is a key difference here:

Demanding an apology is trying to control him. And more importantly, it is something that he can choose to do to make you "happy" or choose not to do to make you "unhappy." Giving him this choice doesn't help you one bit!

Stating that you will not get back in the car for more verbal abuse is a boundary that YOU enforce. His only choice is to be civil with you (perhaps silent, possibly sullen), and have you choose to be with him, or to rage, and have you choose to be away from him.

That is the beauty of a good boundary: You enforce it, he doesn't have to cooperate in any way.

And many people here on this board will tell you that if you consistently enforce boundaries, they (eventually) stop being pushed and tested. First your life improves because enforcing the boundary is better than the mess you used to be in. Second it gets even better because your partner discovers that they don't get what they want when you enforce the boundary. (But watch out for those extinction bursts!)

Let me just say in closing. Keep reading the lessons. Keep working on it. It will help YOU take care of yourself, no matter what else comes of it.

Ahhh, yes. I totally get that. In a way, i was giving him an ultimatum of sorts, and probably making him feel backed into a corner. He knows he cannot deal well with going inside public places, and he knows that i know this... so he probably saw my telling him that I would not go inside until he apologized as 'manipulating' the situation to get what I want (ie: him admitting fault, which he will never ever do!). So now, rather than demand that he do something, even if it is the 'right' thing, I can only inform him of what I will be doing as a result of his behavior, and then the rest is up to him. I can certainly see him choosing to carry on, and then claim that I 'forced him' to behave that way, but you are right, in time, he will no longer get ANY reaction from me whatsoever, and perhaps the verbal abuse will stop.

When his mother told me via message this morning to 'just ignore him and his comments. That is what i do, and it works!', that is partially untrue. He gets more and more angry, and I have had to sit there and listen to him scream and rage and even punch through walls when his father or mother has just walked away and refused to validate his fit over something. So, if this last 'episode' wasn't the last straw for me, I know I have lots of practice to do as far as emotionally detaching myself from the situation. I am a very sensitive person, and I cry easily, so I guess i am a great target for him, since the rest of his family either ignores him, or cusses him out right back. He gets an emotional reaction from me, that he doesn't get from other people. It is so hard for me to keep it together. I actually had to bite my inner cheek to the point of blood before I opened my mouth to speak when we got back to the nursing home yesterday, to keep from losing it.

The funny part, is up until him, I was NEVER like that. It was actually was hard for me to show any emotion at all. I think it's because I bend over so far backwards for him, and do so much, and take every opportunity to show him how much I care, that when he can so thoughtlessly say awful things to me, as if I am nothing, it hits me in the core, where most people are unable to reach. I guess the old saying that 'only those who we truly love, can truly destroy us' is true. Thanks for tips, I have a lot more reading to do today, as it's shaping up to be a 'day off' from him (a week maybe? who knows!)

[numenal]

Hi. I know you must be stressed dealing with this situation. My exbp/np man lived at home (was 31), punched holes in walls, didn't know how to take care of himself, and raged often.

Even if you put boundaries in place, someone that dysregulated will take a very long time to respond in any kind of constructive manner. (From your description, I'm thinking, what if you said you weren't getting back in the car for more abuse and he said ok, then when you got back in and he started driving, the abuse started up again... .  you wouldn't have been able to get out of the moving car.) Looking at your last post:

"... .  he will no longer get ANY reaction from me whatsoever, and perhaps the verbal abuse will stop. When his mother told me via message this morning to 'just ignore him and his comments. That is what i do, and it works!', that is partially untrue. He gets more and more angry, and I have had to sit there and listen to him scream and rage and even punch through walls... .  "

So you see that the 'no reaction' tactic will not stop the verbal abuse. But you don't have to sit there and listen.

A few thoughts: If this man cannot buy his own food, pay his own rent, live somewhere without continually damaging it, have loved ones in his life without abusing them, and is afraid to go into public places, it seems you are in a relationship with someone who needs to be taken care of like a child. Is that ok with you? What are you getting from this relationship? I believe that you deserve a capable adult to be in a relationship with.

[angelica_evil]

Even if you put boundaries in place, someone that dysregulated will take a very long time to respond in any kind of constructive manner. (From your description, I'm thinking, what if you said you weren't getting back in the car for more abuse and he said ok, then when you got back in and he started driving, the abuse started up again... .  you wouldn't have been able to get out of the moving car.)

I am pretty sure that is exactly what would have happened. As Grey Kitty stated, either way, i would have ended up walking. I suppose that if he had started up again after he agreed to stop, I would have just shut it out until we arrived, and then immediately walked away from him and called someone to pick me up. I am trying to set very firm boundaries with him. My current 'boundary' since he cannot wake up in a decent mood, ever, is that until he starts to wake up and not be abusive toward people, i will not spend the night with him. I will lay by him until he falls asleep, so we don't argue about my leaving, but as soon as he dozes, I get up and go home so I don't have to deal with him in the mornings. He is aware of this rule, and so far, he has had a few good mornings to report back to me. Because of yesterday, my newest boundary will be 'I can no longer risk going places with you driving, because I can't risk needing to get out and walk (I have severe spine problems and heart issues) if you should rage. Perhaps sooner or later, he will correlate me not being able to do much with him, with him losing his temper? or do you think this is flawed thinking on my part?

A few thoughts: If this man cannot buy his own food, pay his own rent, live somewhere without continually damaging it, have loved ones in his life without abusing them, and is afraid to go into public places, it seems you are in a relationship with someone who needs to be taken care of like a child. Is that ok with you? What are you getting from this relationship? I believe that you deserve a capable adult to be in a relationship with.

I am still trying to figure that out myself. Maybe I am still in love with the first year of the situation, where he made me stupidly happy 24/7, before he felt comfortable enough to show me his 'bad side' (or we just weren't close enough yet for me to become a target). Talking with my counselor (and his psychotherapist on the down low, unbeknownst to him), we are trying to figure out what my selfish reasons for staying are, aka: taking personal inventory. I do have codependent tendencies, and someone needing to be taken care of so much nurtures that. Also, I have severe depression due to my chronic pain/health issues, and I am so sick of doctors appointments, pain, just everything, that I neglect myself terribly. So using him and my constant stress and exhaustion due to his fits are a handy dandy excuse as to why i am not taking care of me. Thirdly, my spinal injury left me disabled, most likely for life. I never want children, never want to be married again, can't work for the foreseeable future, so I suppose that being 'needed' and being an 'emotional caretaker' as a full time job give me something to feel worthwhile about it. I feel like I have nothing else in life to accomplish.

Those three things are what i can come up with, as far as why i stay. When he isn't raging, or being verbally nasty, we have a great time. He makes me laugh until I can't breathe. We cuddle, I tell him everything, and he seems to 'get' me like nobody else can, not even my best friend. We talk for hours about science, astronomy, and the universe, which seems to bore a lot of people, and we just sit in comfortable silence a lot of the time, occasionally just smiling at each other because the other one is there. When he isn't in a down cycle, our physical chemistry is explosive. When he is in a bad cycle, his desire is null, makes me feel rejected, and he says things like, 'being a slave/needing sex is the sign of a weak person. I will not be a slave to my sexual desires', as if somehow, having a normal healthy sex life makes him weak. That only usually lasts about a week or two. I hate those two weeks, though.  :'(

[numenal]

It's up to you to decide if the up side is worth the down side (though it seems the verbal abuse and being witness to rage is not good for your immune system and therefore your injury).

I have a longterm spinal injury too, and get what it's like to be in pain 24/7. I'm not sure how severe yours is. I'm active to keep my spine and body more limber, and I get chiro adjustments and do physical therapy and yoga. I hope you're taking care of yourself as well as what you do for him.

[Grey Kitty]

... .  in time, he will no longer get ANY reaction from me whatsoever, and perhaps the verbal abuse will stop.

You set boundaries that remove you from the verbal abuse so you don't have to deal with it anymore.

If this stops it from happening, that is a nice bonus, and there is hope. But your boundary takes care of YOU.

When his mother told me via message this morning to 'just ignore him and his comments. That is what i do, and it works!', that is partially untrue. He gets more and more angry, and I have had to sit there and listen to him scream and rage and even punch through walls... .  

You are correct--ignoring abuse isn't very effective. Leaving is. OK, he may get more and more angry, but you aren't there to be bothered by it anymore.

Validation IS much more effective. I've not had much luck once my wife was dysregulated, but sometimes a little validation at the right time will head off a rage. What really works is that consistent validation makes everything go better, and often makes dysregulation less frequent or severe.

I personally find validation harder than setting boundaries, but I keep reminding myself that I need to work on that--not just with my wife, but with anybody I deal with.

[angelica_evil]

Validation IS much more effective. I've not had much luck once my wife was dysregulated, but sometimes a little validation at the right time will head off a rage. What really works is that consistent validation makes everything go better, and often makes dysregulation less frequent or severe.

I personally find validation harder than setting boundaries, but I keep reminding myself that I need to work on that--not just with my wife, but with anybody I deal with.

If I am not being too much of a bugaboo here, could you maybe give me an example of how I could have used validation in the situation at all? Like, what could I have said during both the gps and the oranges incidents that would communicate to him that I wasn't totally blind to his emotions at the time? You are a great help, Grey Kitty!

[Grey Kitty]

Sometimes I think I really suck at validation, but I'll try.

When you validate, you are trying to show that you understand and accept his feelings (notice that AGREE wasn't in that list)

The other thing to do is to make sure you don't invalidate him. Honestly, when somebody is being a #@$!@# idiot or jerk, it is really really really easy to invalidate them. Looking at the GPS example:

When your phone was wonky you told him "just follow your mother's directions, we will find it."

That is invalidating--You are telling him that his wanting to use the GPS is wrong. You are also saying that his mother is right and he is wrong. Doubly invalidating.

But once it was clear that he was getting confused following his mom's directions, you could try to validate his confusion or frustration:

"It is really frustrating to feel lost and confused."

It is past my bedtime... .  that's about the best I've got in me right now. But let me point you at more help from the lessons:

TOOLS: Stop Invalidating Your Partner

COMMUNICATION: Validation - tools and techniques

[waverider]

Requesting an apology when the drama is happening is pointless, as it can only trigger. If by chance you get one it will not be meant they cannot deescalate that quick.

His parents and mother in particular are invalidating and contributing substantially to his disorder

Validation is more of use before dysregulation occurs, once the valve blows it is often of little use, and often puts you in danger of JADE if you are not careful.

You are stuck in the mode of this is just a phase he is going through and with a few tweaks you can change him. This is not the way it will be, the further in you get the more entitled he will feel to let it all out.

Removing yourself as you did, is the best option, but that option will not always be that readily available

[angelica_evil]

His parents and mother in particular are invalidating and contributing substantially to his disorder

I know this. Not only are they extremely negative, like to push his buttons, and btch and yell at him for things he hasn't even (and might not) do at all, they constantly like to tell him he is crazy, he needs to be institutionalized, he is a loser, etc... .  and then in the next breath, spoil him rotten, enable him, and hand him cash and new cars, and pay 100% of his living expenses. He was a problem child from the day he was born, diagnosed with severe ADHD at age 6 after failing kindergarten and being thrown out of two schools already. They even gave him brain scans, because they couldn't accept that his ADHD could be *that* bad. His parents did the bare minimum, switched him to different schools, medicated him, but refused to pay for therapy because according to his mom, 'people are who they are, you cannot do anything to help or change it. he will be like this until he dies and talking to the psychiatrist does nothing but empty your wallet.'  I feel they provoke him, and then chastise him for responding with anger. They know he is disordered, and are aware of his diagnosis, yet refuse to make changes necessary to helping him along. They insist they will do anything to help him, including buying him a lawyer when he gets in trouble, paying his way through life, buying him whatever he wants and letting him get away with destructive rages.

However, I feel like they don't want to help him in recovery or treatment because they feel that his illness is a reflection of their job as parents, so it's better to just enable and use the ostrich effect when it comes to him. They can never stick to boundaries or set plans. they say they will not tolerate something ever again, and then as soon as it happens, they do nothing at all and let it perpetuate. It's so hard for me to walk away from the situation, because I am aware of just how bad off he is, and without me, I feel he will just sink deeper and deeper until suicide or jail (or both). But I know it's hopeless, at the bottom of my heart, and even though I know it's not my 'job', and I shouldn't be treated the way I am, I just can't stop loving him and wanting him to be okay. Life is so terrible feeling this way, on top of all of my other issues, that I really wish most days that I would just die, to not have to feel like this. I am in no way 'suicidal', and I am under the care of a counselor for these feelings I have, but I just cannot help it. Or him.

[waverider]

Sadly this is so typical, and often one of the hooks that gets us sucked into the impotent rescuer mode. To an outsider it is such a catch 22 situation

[angelica_evil]

It's kind of like when the oxygen masks drop during an airplane crash. You may only have time to try and save the person next to you, but do you waste the time putting your own oxygen mask on first so you can help others... if it means that you might not even have the time to try to help at all? Or do you possibly sacrifice yourself in order to help someone else?

[Grey Kitty]

It's kind of like when the oxygen masks drop during an airplane crash. You may only have time to try and save the person next to you, but do you waste the time putting your own oxygen mask on first so you can help others... if it means that you might not even have the time to try to help at all? Or do you possibly sacrifice yourself in order to help someone else?

You are asking this like it is a valid question, so I'll answer it that way.

I've been using that metaphor for ages now. Always put your own oxygen mask on first before you assist others. Literally do it that way on a plane just like they say in the briefing.

Emotionally, take care of yourself well enough that you will be healthy before you help others. Don't ever sacrifice yourself to help somebody else.

I say this as a sadder and wiser Grey Kitty. My wife DID make sacrifices for me, and it was HORRIBLE. First off, she didn't ask me if I wanted her to make the sacrifice or not. Then after she did it, resentment started to build because I "owed" her for her "sacrifice." It caused buckets of horrible fights because I didn't feel that I owed her anything--she made the "sacrifice" for me without my consent, and I didn't really want it at all, and absolutely NOT at the price charged for it.

Side note: Because of this, I take exception to the word sacrifice, in a relationship context. I think it is pretty much always toxic. Please note the difference between a gift, freely given and a sacrifice.

[Rockylove]

Are you maybe alluding to the fact that he was internalizing this newest development, and in an internal panic over it, and perhaps that is why he ended up exploding on me? I can see that, however, it makes no sense, because he knows that the ONLY person who would remotely help him, baby him, and take care of him if his mother and father won't, is me. But I guess misdirected rage is a hallmark of BPD, so that could be the cause.

INDEED!  I see it happen in my own relationship and I was confused as to why he would push me away, but in retrospect I see that it is very much a part of the BPD's flawed thinking.  My bf said some very telling things about his fear of abandonment and feels that I'd be just like everyone else and leave him which seems to heighten his insecurity and create more hostility.  No... .  it makes no sense at all~~but accepting what is and validating his feelings has made a remarkable difference in his level of anger.  He seems more likely to talk himself down when I validate.  I never realized what a valuable tool that would be!

[allibaba]

WOW.  First time poster here.  Sorry but I laughed quite hard when I read your post only because I could have posted it. 

A few small differences.  MY BPD is nearing 50.  Used to be completely self supporting and had a successful career.  Hit a couple of rough patches in life and has been sliding downhill ever since... .  In our life... .  missed turns and oranges turn into nuclear meltdowns.  I love the metaphor by the way.  We have been together for 10 years.  Married for 4 and we have a son who is a toddler.  Oh and my husband patches his own holes that he put in the wall when he calms down.   

I have nothing to add because I am new to understanding BPD.  I spent the last 5 years focusing on my own deficiencies thinking if I worked harder then things would be better.  Now I need to start working on building a life again because I have given up a lot trying to support him... .  not realizing that it only made the BPD worse.  Best of luck!

[laelle]

My wife DID make sacrifices for me, and it was HORRIBLE. First off, she didn't ask me if I wanted her to make the sacrifice or not. Then after she did it, resentment started to build because I "owed" her for her "sacrifice." It caused buckets of horrible fights because I didn't feel that I owed her anything--she made the "sacrifice" for me without my consent, and I didn't really want it at all, and absolutely NOT at the price charged for it

.


This is exactly what I have had to get out of to help heal my own issues.  Sacrificing and feeling bitter and owed.  When I stopped sacrificing, wth, I stopped feeling like I was owed.  

[Auspicious]

Years ago, there were tantrums about missed turns ... .  my wife would insist on going to the next town to go to a chain restaurant or store, rather than just fix the missed turn by turning around. Not kidding.

I played a role, though. I would argue and get resentful, or plead for her to be rational, but I would still go along with it. Worst of all possible worlds.

Looking back, what I had control over was my role. I could have either laughed and gone along with it (if I really didn't care), or else I could have simply turned around and fixed the missed turn, without arguing (I was, after all, driving). For that matter, I could have chosen not to drive places with her, if she was likely to make the drives unpleasant. Choosing to be with someone who acts like that is a choice.

I couldn't control what she did ... .  but I could control what I did. That's the underlying key (I realize that our situations were different).

[waverider]

My wife DID make sacrifices for me, and it was HORRIBLE. First off, she didn't ask me if I wanted her to make the sacrifice or not. Then after she did it, resentment started to build because I "owed" her for her "sacrifice." It caused buckets of horrible fights because I didn't feel that I owed her anything--she made the "sacrifice" for me without my consent, and I didn't really want it at all, and absolutely NOT at the price charged for it

.


This is exactly what I have had to get out of to help heal my own issues.  Sacrificing and feeling bitter and owed.  When I stopped sacrificing, wth, I stopped feeling like I was owed.  

This is a valid point that is often overlooked. How many people who make grand "sacrifices", then show obvious resentments, and hold it as an owing debt and as a result the consequences are worse. Constantly having acts and gifts thrown back at you like credit notes is completely undermining.

[angelica_evil]

This is a valid point that is often overlooked. How many people who make grand "sacrifices", then show obvious resentments, and hold it as an owing debt and as a result the consequences are worse. Constantly having acts and gifts thrown back at you like credit notes is completely undermining.

I always have to remind myself, and others, when they remind me of how much I do for him and act as if he should be throwing himself at my feet for it: "We do things for people because we want to. Not because we expect something in return, or because we want to make the person treat us better"

It IS hurtful and frustrating, when we have just made a grand gesture, or did something particularly nice and selfish, to have it overlooked, and still get verbally dressed down, or raged at a minute later. After this bad incident last weekend, and the two full days of the silent treatment/punishment for things I didn't even do, he came down with a bad cold/flu, and ended up breaking his silence to ask me to bring him meds and to come take care of him. (just like breaking his last silent treatment 'punishment' because he had a migraine and needed me to take care of him. I am starting to see a pattern here.)

Because it's just the way I am, again, i immediately dropped everything and went to get him meds and brought them to him and 'forgave' him silently for this past weekend without even bringing it up. Normally, he is very contrite and repentant when he has recently exploded/punished, but as SOON as I got there, it was, 'what the he*# took you so long?' and 'ugh! I don't want this kind of meds, I wanted the other brand!' (after i asked him five times which ones he wanted and he said that any kind were fine) . My gut reaction was to tell him to shove them where the sun doesn't shine and turn around and immediately walk out, but, I realized that since waking up is such a problem for him with his rages, he was actually comparatively calm, and also, he was sick. His mother then asked him, 'did you thank her for forgiving you and bringing you meds?' like a 6 year old and he immediately softened and thanked me. It was odd, indeed.

At any rate, I was extremely upset at the sacrifice I just made for him, to immediately be met with rudeness. I found that I had to just go sit in another room for a while and it passed. Letting him know that his actions are wrong serves no good purpose, ever, so removing myself from it immediately seems to be working the best for me. It's hard to not feel like I am 'allowing' or 'accepting' the behavior when i do this, though.

In your (everyone who is posting here) opinion, is removing yourself from the situation until you feel less volatile, and then carrying on as if nothing happened, just to avoid the circular arguments or possible rages, feel like 'giving in' or 'letting them get away with it'? I realize it's not up to me to 'punish' him the way he feels like he must punish me all of the time, but do you ever feel as if by just removing yourself, and then not addressing what just happened, that you are just showing them that they can behave this way, and you will be ok with it after a few minutes/hours/whatever?

And if so, what do you think is the best way to prevent feeling this way? Do you ever feel it's beneficial to bring up the incident and address it after it's over with and they are settled down? I know most of us are usually relieved when it's all over and they are calm again, and don't want to refuel the fire. But what to do about these nagging feelings that we must somehow show them that we 'forgave', but didn't 'forget'?

ps- You all are such a great help, I cannot even convey adequately how much help this board has been in the few short weeks I have been posting here! Many thanks!

[waverider]

Sometimes there are a lot of little niggly incidents that just gnaw away at you. You can confront them over each and everyone of them endlessly and get nowhere as you are just addressing symptoms.

Work out what is the underlying issue that is causing the resentment and address that, was it abusive and ungrateful treatment? If so then that becomes the boundary, you let him get his own meds without further discussion when that happens. Is it the "jump now" behavior? Then do things in your own times. If that provokes abuse apply the first boundary.

The point is find the common theme that is getting to you and make a standard boundary.

Do things because you are happy to do them, not as a "sacrifice"

Yes if you feel triggered take time out

[Auspicious]

The problem is that if "confronting" BPD behavior worked, it wouldn't be BPD, and complex lengthy therapy such as DBT would not be required.

[Grey Kitty]

In your (everyone who is posting here) opinion, is removing yourself from the situation until you feel less volatile, and then carrying on as if nothing happened, just to avoid the circular arguments or possible rages, feel like 'giving in' or 'letting them get away with it'? I realize it's not up to me to 'punish' him the way he feels like he must punish me all of the time, but do you ever feel as if by just removing yourself, and then not addressing what just happened, that you are just showing them that they can behave this way, and you will be ok with it after a few minutes/hours/whatever?

Short answer: No.

I am personally very pragmatic. I try to do things that will improve my partner's behavior. I try not to do things that will bring out bad behavior in my partner. I try not to do things that I will regret later. I try to avoid situations that are unpleasant unless they will accomplish something that is important to me.

So that means that if I'm starting to react to provocations or really wanting to, going away until I calm down is the absolute best thing I can accomplish. In other words:  Stepping out was a GREAT move on your part!

And if so, what do you think is the best way to prevent feeling this way? Do you ever feel it's beneficial to bring up the incident and address it after it's over with and they are settled down? I know most of us are usually relieved when it's all over and they are calm again, and don't want to refuel the fire. But what to do about these nagging feelings that we must somehow show them that we 'forgave', but didn't 'forget'?

Sometimes you really want to change a specific behavior on their part, or simply really need them to understand YOUR feelings.

You can try to explain it to them as if they were "normal." My pragmatic side reminds me not to do this--I won't get good results. If I forget and try anyhow, I usually get a "friendly reminder"

Use structured communication tools to communicate instead. They require more effort on your part, but actually getting good results makes the effort worthwhile. Read about it in the lessons here. I think that SET or DEARMAN are usually best.

And sometimes I find that instead of needing to communicate, all I need to do is just accept that my partner has limitations and I should stop beating my head against that wall hoping to get through Radical acceptance goes a long way.

[ImTheHusband]

I suggest you need to move on. Let go and find someone new. This will define the rest of your life.

I completely sympathize with the not addressing what happened part. It's the ONLY way my wife can get back to normal. There's no discussing what happened, why, what we were feeling, how she insulted/attacked(verbally) me etc. "Like it never happened" is the only way to get back to normal.

[Auspicious]

There's no discussing what happened, why, what we were feeling, how she insulted/attacked(verbally) me etc. "Like it never happened" is the only way to get back to normal.

Since BPD dysregulation isn't based on rational factors, there is not much point in trying to rationally discuss it afterward (unless you are a therapist in a therapeutic setting).

[numenal]

  "I suggest you need to move on. Let go and find someone new. This will           

   define the rest of your life."

I would like to second this. It seems you have a tendency to put his needs before your own. You deserve as much care, kindness, and help from your SO as you give. You sound like a very sweet person with intelligence and creativity. It seems you might view yourself as 'damaged' and somehow fit for a less-than partner. Not true.

Still wondering what you get from the r/s? Someone to cuddle up with and tell everything to, have talks about science and astronomy... .  I am 100% certain you can find someone to do those with... .  who won't be abusive.

[angelica_evil]

It seems you might view yourself as 'damaged' and somehow fit for a less-than partner. Not true.

Still wondering what you get from the r/s? Someone to cuddle up with and tell everything to, have talks about science and astronomy... .  I am 100% certain you can find someone to do those with... .  who won't be abusive.

First of all, thank you guys for the compliments and help, it was very nice to read these last replies. Next, Numenal, you may have scratched the surface of an ugly truth that I myself don't like to overthink too much, but perhaps it's time to. I left my well adjusted, kind, and... .  well... sane husband for my current BPDbf. And when I say that I left him, I guess it's more accurate to say that there was a few weeks overlap between when I started seeing my bf here and there, and when I finally brought up the possibility of divorce to my husband. In other words, I did something I had never done in the ten years of being with my husband, I cheated on him with my BPDbf (which does NOTHING to help allay his fears that I will cheat on him/leave him too, obviously, even a non would feel this way!). The thing is, my ex husband is a great person, and a great friend, we just were not suited for marriage, but because we were such good friends and cared about the other person so much, neither one of us wanted to broach the subject of not really wanting to be married. so as a result, we both kind of avoided each other a lot, i started sleeping separately from him for a full year before we even divorced.

My bf was a friend of mine, albeit online only (save for meeting him once about 9 years ago in person), and we would talk all night long, and then through most of the day. he had ended a long term bad relationship (but who knows if this girl really was as evil as he claims, well, you guys understand ;-)) , and I was miserable, so we would commiserate and talk about everything under the sun, and I finally felt happy again. I had also been feeling ignored by my ex husband, and all of the attention and flirtations and compliments from my bf at first felt great. I knew meeting up with him was going to be a bad idea, but i did it anyway, and ended up cheating on my husband. I have been consumed with guilt over this since it happened. I think all of the time about why I actually stay, and why i cannot seem to make myself want to walk away, no matter how much I get hurt, and in addition to a few codependent, needing to be needed reasons, I think it's partially because I feel like I deserve this bad treatment for cheating on my husband with him in the first place. Also, it took about a full year for his issues and illness to be apparent to me, or at least, for me to get the brunt of them. so guilt, being needed, and also, thinking of him in the terms of how stupidly happy he made me at first are probably why I stay. Also, and it's not just him saying this, so many people HAVE given up on him, left him, failed him. Parental rejection, teachers failed him (and abused him), heck, he even once got first double crossed, then abandoned by a doctor! I don't have the heart to be next on the list, either.

When he isn't being mean or raging, he really is just about the sweetest thing, and the person I left my then husband for is very apparent. Also, I get bored with situations fairly easily, and he has never given me time to get bored, I am always on my toes with this one. I guess that is the best way I can explain it. I don't get empathy for my conditions, thoughtfulness (most of the time, anyway) , understanding, the benefit of the doubt, and he not someone i can be sure where I stand with from day to day. I guess I know that I will probably leave at some point, I am just certainly not ready to now. I'm willing to see if he makes continual honest effort in therapy, as he seems to have been trying to. When he is having his down cycles, he says he wants to have a normal life and a happy relationship with me, and he hates feeling like he always does. But that flies out the window within minutes if something angers him, or something cooks up in his head to change it.

[waverider]

It seems you might view yourself as 'damaged' and somehow fit for a less-than partner. Not true.

Still wondering what you get from the r/s? Someone to cuddle up with and tell everything to, have talks about science and astronomy... .  I am 100% certain you can find someone to do those with... .  who won't be abusive.

First of all, thank you guys for the compliments and help, it was very nice to read these last replies. Next, Numenal, you may have scratched the surface of an ugly truth that I myself don't like to overthink too much, but perhaps it's time to. I left my well adjusted, kind, and... .  well... sane husband for my current BPDbf. And when I say that I left him, I guess it's more accurate to say that there was a few weeks overlap between when I started seeing my bf here and there, and when I finally brought up the possibility of divorce to my husband. In other words, I did something I had never done in the ten years of being with my husband, I cheated on him with my BPDbf (which does NOTHING to help allay his fears that I will cheat on him/leave him too, obviously, even a non would feel this way!). The thing is, my ex husband is a great person, and a great friend, we just were not suited for marriage, but because we were such good friends and cared about the other person so much, neither one of us wanted to broach the subject of not really wanting to be married. so as a result, we both kind of avoided each other a lot, i started sleeping separately from him for a full year before we even divorced.

My bf was a friend of mine, albeit online only (save for meeting him once about 9 years ago in person), and we would talk all night long, and then through most of the day. he had ended a long term bad relationship (but who knows if this girl really was as evil as he claims, well, you guys understand ;-)) , and I was miserable, so we would commiserate and talk about everything under the sun, and I finally felt happy again. I had also been feeling ignored by my ex husband, and all of the attention and flirtations and compliments from my bf at first felt great. I knew meeting up with him was going to be a bad idea, but i did it anyway, and ended up cheating on my husband. I have been consumed with guilt over this since it happened. I think all of the time about why I actually stay, and why i cannot seem to make myself want to walk away, no matter how much I get hurt, and in addition to a few codependent, needing to be needed reasons, I think it's partially because I feel like I deserve this bad treatment for cheating on my husband with him in the first place. Also, it took about a full year for his issues and illness to be apparent to me, or at least, for me to get the brunt of them. so guilt, being needed, and also, thinking of him in the terms of how stupidly happy he made me at first are probably why I stay. Also, and it's not just him saying this, so many people HAVE given up on him, left him, failed him. Parental rejection, teachers failed him (and abused him), heck, he even once got first double crossed, then abandoned by a doctor! I don't have the heart to be next on the list, either.

When he isn't being mean or raging, he really is just about the sweetest thing, and the person I left my then husband for is very apparent. Also, I get bored with situations fairly easily, and he has never given me time to get bored, I am always on my toes with this one. I guess that is the best way I can explain it. I don't get empathy for my conditions, thoughtfulness (most of the time, anyway) , understanding, the benefit of the doubt, and he not someone i can be sure where I stand with from day to day. I guess I know that I will probably leave at some point, I am just certainly not ready to now. I'm willing to see if he makes continual honest effort in therapy, as he seems to have been trying to. When he is having his down cycles, he says he wants to have a normal life and a happy relationship with me, and he hates feeling like he always does. But that flies out the window within minutes if something angers him, or something cooks up in his head to change it.

This is a common theme, and closely mirrors my situation.

You were invalidated and felt empty in your previous RS, this leads to you being vulnerable to the BPD idealization phase. You empathised with their "isolation" issues too. You felt a bond with them.

Then about a year after committing the wheels start to fall off. You then feel guilty about what you did to your ex, and think maybe he wasn't to bad. That guilt makes you reluctant to "pull the trigger" again, so instead you stay and slug it out feeling you made a mistake and bear a load of resentment on your shoulders. Your partner senses this and the whole thing spirals.

to stay and reverse this means letting go of that feeling of guilt and obligation, as the creates negative vibes, work on your resentment and otherwise sort yourself out and what you really want. Then you will be in a better position to deal with your partner.

Then what ever you do in the long term will be done in full knowledge of why, and what the options where.