should I reach out or leave him be?

[patientandclear]

Hi guys ... .  

My ex (with whom I've become intimate friends with echoes of other things) left town Saturday.  For those following the story, it was anticlimactic given all my consternation here about whether to declare my deeper feelings & tell him I love him.  I had sorta made up my mind to do so, kind of on the theory that he's going off into the world, sleeping in parks, not sure where he's going, I don't know when I'll see him again, and anything could happen to either of us -- so better to speak up, no strings attached, so he could take that knowledge with him.  At the last minute something in me wouldn't allow me to say it though.  I think mostly realizing how intensely uncomfortable it would make him & that there was sort of nothing he could say back.  So I end up showing him rather than telling him, as advised by Phoenix Rising; I sent a card that said it without using those scary words, and I went over when he asked me to on his last day, to help a bit dismantling some furniture and to take some things he couldn't take with him.

When I left I said "I seem to say goodbye to you unreasonably frequently."  He smiled and said yes, and something about how that was all the more true and he would text me something to do with that later that evening.

Well, he didn't.  Not that night, his last in town; not the next day, the day he left; not today.  He's enroute somewhere, I know the general direction and that's about it.

It's not unheard of for him not to text for three days but it's unusual.  I'm fine with him taking space to be in his own head as he embarks on this new chapter.  It is quite possible he is, consciously or not, he is trying to leave me behind some line he's drawn between his old life and this new chapter, though I can't imagine I am never going to hear from him again; when he left he asked if he could send me small valuables from the road to keep for him, and so on.

I want to respect his space -- I've been a master at that.  At the same time it feels a little artificial for me not to even inquire how he's doing.  Before he left we were sharing quite intimately.  He made some odd statements including one about how he has a lot of atoning to do to me for ridiculousness in the past.  We were comfortable and warm with each other, and to go from that to silence ... .  well, it's not unusual for him, but for me to maintain that stance is pretty incongruous since I am not mad at him and I do not react to feelings of love and warmth for a person by pretending they do not exist

Looking for your thoughts on whether to reach out.  Like many pwBPD, once we get into these silent streaks, sometimes it takes me casually reaching out to sort of prime the pump again. He always acts grateful that I did that, sometimes commenting on it.  If he had not just departed on this long adventure having suggested he would text and then choosing not to do so, I would probably reach out.  But I feel as though he is choosing this distance on purpose and I don't want to foist communication on him either.

I will also say, this is a moment of reflection for me too.  I'm realizing I have somehow become the ex-girlfriend of the Leonardo di Caprio character in Into the Wild, and honestly, that makes me uncomfortable.  There is a part of me that feels like "you left.  I was here, we were doing something significant and we were both building it and it took effort and trust and it was cool ... .  and you left.  Again.  At this point, this is yours to cultivate if you care about it.  I am not the only custodian of the feelings between us."  I couldn't have been any more scrupulous about letting him go, not hanging on, affirming my warmth and caring for him without suggesting that he should do anything other than follow his own path.  He sure did.  Fair enough.  I want to be true to my feelings for him but I don't want to be the worried voice of "are you all right?" and "what are you doing? where are you?" either.  He left.  I don't want to chase.  Does it make more sense to let him express when he wants to reclaim his connection here?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[maria1]

Hi P & C

You've said and done all you can. It has to be up to him to choose his own course now and I think you aren't being fair to either of you by chasing him.

Leave it be- your last paragraph sums it up. He'll be back in time, or he won't.

This part is hard but I think you will get used to it if you can give yourself time NOT to reach out to him. Let him have his journey- he hasn't asked you to contact him. He said he would text you and he didn't so leave him be. Respect his choice and live your life.

You have abandonment to deal with now and you need to go through it. I have been there and have made up all sorts of reasons to avoid it but I have actually felt cleaner and stronger when I have sat on my hands and ridden out the need for contact.

I say this as someone who isn't currently in contact with my ex but can't say what I would do if he contacted me today, or tomorrow. I'm sure folks who are more 'staying' might give you a different perspective but I can't help feeling that, as much as you want to stay and as hard as it is, your ex wants to leave and you need to let him. 

[yeeter]

Hi patient,

  hugs.  Its hard when someone close leaves.  So take care of yourself during this time.

I guess my advice is that if you want to send a text to see how he is doing, I dont see a big harm in that - as long as you are not dwelling on it and are moving on with living your life!

If you are sitting around grieving and waiting for the time when he returns, then my advice is to remain non-contact until you are emotionally free (this is more for your own grieving process than for him)

Priority #1 is continuing to build your own life.  One that doesnt include him (he isnt there!).  I wonder - do you imagine a future without him as a part of it?  What your life would look like with no involvement of him at all?  Its very possible he will never come back and he may very well move on with his own life in a way that doesnt include you.

[laelle]

Take it day by day.  Nothing wrong with a "how are things going?" He knows you care about him, so he would probably feel very invalidated if you didnt.  As Maria says... .  Dont chase him, let all those unrealistic plans and dreams go, and start making realistic ones.  

[patientandclear]

Just to clarify: we spoke many times of being in contact while he is gone -- it's not that he didn't ask me to contact him.  I am prepared to do the work of adjusting to life without him here, and yes, it is possible he will not come back and it is possible he will disappear utterly (like in Into the Wild).

But it's what Laelle is saying that I'm wondering about.  Sometimes I think his silences are tests and when I reach out nicely and innocuously, he always acts so relieved.  There's no rule that says he had to be the first to contact, I just expected it because of the comment he muttered about how he said something more to say that he would text.

It's my own hurt and anger about being abandoned, the first time and now, again, that would hold me back from reaching out.  The frustration at often having to be the one who does the reaching.

The truth is he reaches too, just not in the same way.  He too makes efforts to keep us connected and to deepen the connection (he is always the one to suggest getting together, because it makes me feel too vulnerable to ask; he introduced me to his daughter, he offered to travel to see me to get together despite his dislike for the town I live in, which was an issue when we were together).

If he is just off being contemplative and not wanting me to intrude, then of course, I don't want to intrude.  But if as Laelle says he is waiting for me to act like I care about him, I also don't want to go on a weird silent strike as if I've got my arms folded and won't contact him unless he contacts me first.

He's turned his whole life upside down in the last three weeks.  He's chosen a lot of change, that's true.  But he expressed no desire to leave me as well -- we were very close in the last couple weeks, and when I'd say I was sad about him leaving, he'd say it's not like I'm sailing off the edge of the world.  Except now, predictably, it sort of feels like he did.

[laelle]

You think too much P, send an email and say hi, hows it going?  Of course he expects you to stay in contact, you have a relationship even if its not the one you think you may want.  He has also encouraged and promised to stay in touch himself.

Free yourself from your own cage of insecurity and stop walking on eggshells.  Because you sent an email does not mean that you want to marry him,  only that you care.  He knows this already and its natural that he would want you to contact him.

I use to get into that he must contact me first. I made myself bitter sitting in wait when I could have just shouted a quick heya.

Your a deep thinker dear.  I wish i could share my lifetime supply of Xanax with you.  

If you email him and get a grouchy guy, tell yourself... .  he's a grouchy guy, must be having a bad day.  I will talk to him later when things calm down for him.  :)ont take it personally because you KNOW he cares about you.

[Phoenix.Rising]

P&C, I feel for you in what you're going through, I really do.     You remind me myself in a lot of ways.  I had a tendency to over-think my relationship with my ex, but it almost seemed necessary at times due to the very nature of the relationship. 

You do come across as walking on eggshells at times... please don't take that the wrong way, because I did the same thing and it's very difficult not to with pwBPD.  I mention that to say that it has helped me to take several steps back in order to gain a clearer vision... kind of like stepping back for a big painting and actually seeing the 'big picture'.  You've been up close and personal for a long time now.

I found that I was exerting a lot of unnecessary energy toward someone who was ultimately, and sadly, not fully invested in me or our relationship.  Her actions did not match her words... well, sometimes, but that could change the next hour or day!

It's my own hurt and anger about being abandoned, the first time and now, again, that would hold me back from reaching out. 

Stepping back will allow to get a better look and feel at this abandonment pain.  I have the same pain, and it runs deeper than my experience with my ex.  I believe your ex will continue to abandon you emotionally.  That is what they do without treatment.  He seems to be abandoning you again physically, as you mentioned.  You have every right to feel hurt, and, for me, angry.  But I have to balance my emotions with my ex's illness, so I take it less personal.

I don't see anything wrong with you reaching out to him, but at the same time I feel you would do yourself some justice and allow yourself some peace by giving yourself some breathing room.  These relationships can be all consuming if we let them, and it's easy to lose sight of the most important part of the equation: ourselves.  Be nice to Patient and Clear.  She deserves it!

I still miss my ex on a deep level at times.  I dreamed of her last night.  But I was in pain in my dream.  I was telling someone I still loved her, but I knew in my heart an intimate relationship with her was destructive for me.  The loss is very difficult, but our lives continue on.  My life does depend on her.  She's made her choice, and so has your ex.  Let him go.

[maria1]

I will also say, this is a moment of reflection for me too.  I'm realizing I have somehow become the ex-girlfriend of the Leonardo di Caprio character in Into the Wild, and honestly, that makes me uncomfortable.  There is a part of me that feels like "you left.  I was here, we were doing something significant and we were both building it and it took effort and trust and it was cool ... .  and you left.  Again.  At this point, this is yours to cultivate if you care about it.  I am not the only custodian of the feelings between us."  I couldn't have been any more scrupulous about letting him go, not hanging on, affirming my warmth and caring for him without suggesting that he should do anything other than follow his own path.  He sure did.  Fair enough.  I want to be true to my feelings for him but I don't want to be the worried voice of "are you all right?" and "what are you doing? where are you?" either.  He left.  I don't want to chase.  :)oes it make more sense to let him express when he wants to reclaim his connection here?


Are your instincts telling you that there is possibly something going on that you are not aware of? Are you sure that you are as important to this man as he is to you?

That's where I will never be sure, deep, deep down, with my ex. He can say everything absolutely real and true to make me believe we have the deepest, most important connection and to ensure I don't break it. Best friends forever- so many people here this from their pwBPD. But they do it/say it to keep us connected, and actually if they have something else that is serving them they can move on, or...

We have the deepest connection. His life is meaningless without me and his endless search for meaning is only to try and find something like that which we had. He only goes after new women when I refuse him or turn away. If I hadn't done that and wasn't still doing that... .  

What is stopping you from contacting this man who has left you?

If you didn't and waited for him to contact you what would that mean?

You are a deep thinker and so is he. So am I. I could go either way with my ex- I can keep it light and keep in touch but I made the choice not to. I could feel his anger beginning to bubble around and I am not prepared to be on the receiving end of it. I cut and run.

All this is your choice- as Laelle says there is nothing wrong in a 'Hiya how's it going?' if you feel like it.

What's stopping you?

His silences may well be tests- I felt pretty sure that my ex's were. But they may also just be that he has other things to occupy his mind, just not you. The belief that everybody else thinks the way I do is a hard one to break, especially with my BPDex. He doesn't think about me when he's got somebody else to think about. I used to think about him ALL THE TIME. Realising that he didn't think about me all the time was very freeing.

[inepted]

His silences may well be tests- I felt pretty sure that my ex's were. But they may also just be that he has other things to occupy his mind, just not you. The belief that everybody else thinks the way I do is a hard one to break, especially with my BPDex. He doesn't think about me when he's got somebody else to think about. I used to think about him ALL THE TIME. Realising that he didn't think about me all the time was very freeing.

Can I ask what made you believe your ex's silence were tests? I often wonder this about my own ex. And you're right about coming to the realization they dont think about you all the time. Once I realized this about my ex I became a lot more at ease and accepting that I cant change her.

[patientandclear]

The one thing I am quite sure of is that he isn't involved now with someone else, nor is he headed off to be with someone else. He wasn't sure where he was going even a week ago.  He seems to be falling in love with himself, in a good way for someone w/BPD--I think more and more, he is creating & appreciating his "self" somewhat to the exclusion of deep ties to others.  I respect that. I do n't know if ever, on the other side of that, he'll have room for a different kind of r/s than he's always pursued in the past, & I'm not worried about that right now.

What's holding me back is the acute awareness of how hard it is to maintain a viable long term connection w/someone wBPD, especially an ex. Close as we are, it was just weeks ago he had that sense that I had a "hidden agenda" & was trying to save him. I almost never initiate contact w/him b/c of the tendency of pwBPD to feel others are smothering or stalking them, especially exes. I think those practices & my overthinking have helped us get to where we are -- wherever that is!

And where we are ... .  well, I think I was the last person he saw here, I think I am actually quite important in his emotional landscape. I don't think it's all about me -- I don't think leaving was about me -- and I don't think he is always thinking of me anymore, as he strengthens his own sense of himself as a sufficient being in the world. But he has a way of referring to me--I'm sort of like his check-in point--and we trust one another with important stuff and want to stay connected.

So truly, I am just wondering whether it's important for our r/s now that I leave him alone; important that I reach out; or OK either way. Usually in the past when he's silent he's working on something in his head, so it's no accident that he's gone quiet. Something is up. But sometimes before when I've reached out in the middle of that, he's acted very glad I did--it was like it re-set the clock somehow & he could start again.

I hear y'all about walking on eggshells w/him.  I'll think about whether I am trying too hard to get it "right" when, as Maria has said, there is no right, and when, as PR says, he will continue to abandon me in various ways even though he continues to come through in various ways.

[seeking balance]

P&C,

This obsessing over whether to contact him is not healthy - you are friends with him - how would you treat any other friend?  Stop focusing on BPD - that is not the real issue in this post.

SB

[laelle]

What Seeking Balance says. 

[maria1]

The one thing I am quite sure of is that he isn't involved now with someone else, nor is he headed off to be with someone else. He wasn't sure where he was going even a week ago.  He seems to be falling in love with himself, in a good way for someone w/BPD--I think more and more, he is creating & appreciating his "self" somewhat to the exclusion of deep ties to others.  I respect that. I do n't know if ever, on the other side of that, he'll have room for a different kind of r/s than he's always pursued in the past, & I'm not worried about that right now.

I am really sorry that I'm pushing this but you can't be sure. You can 100% believe you are sure, that's all.

People with BPD find their identity and sense of self through others, unless they have had extensive and specialist therapy. That does seem to be a well established fact from these boards.

But you believe this man is so amazing and special he is managing to find his own sense of self without any therapy? How?

P & C I'm sorry but I am just not convinced one little bit. I want to be, I really do but I think his travel is not what it appears to be because I know BPD and it doesn't involve being alone without the promise and hope of not being.

[LetItBe]

P&C,

This obsessing over whether to contact him is not healthy - you are friends with him - how would you treat any other friend?  Stop focusing on BPD - that is not the real issue in this post.

SB

This makes good sense! 

I'm trying to imagine myself in your position with your pwBPD.  I think I'd ask myself whether I could contact him like I would any other friend, which would be a friendly check-in without a big charge attached to it, without any deep need for a certain response.  It's been very challenging to get myself into that space sometimes.  Ideally, I'd get myself into a less charged state of mind, a grounded space, then decide what to do.  Ideally. 

I know you miss him, and that's perfectly understandable right now.  This is fresh. 

Hope you're taking good care of yourself. 

[almost789]

It's been three days Patient. Last convo was he would text you and then he didn't. He left town. Give him time to himself. Was there an agreement you were going to stay in contact every couple of days? If so then drop him a line, if not give it a while. I can only imagine how busy and discombobled he is moving around. Sleeping in parks?

Seriously though, I think you should take this time to start building YOUR life and let him build his and if you all get together latter down the road then fine. But your right, he's made some serious changes to his life right now and It does seem like he needs more space than just a few days.

[patientandclear]

Geez you guys!

I can hear that I think too much and over-think these things (  Laelle).  But this comes from the desire to "not make things worse" as urged here on the staying board.  I still don't find it all that intuitive how to deal with these dips in the road, especially periods of unexpected silence.

I really appreciate insights about what might be going on with him.  Laelle's point that he knows I care & expects to hear from me is correct, and the observation that it would be invalidating NOT to hear from me -- yes, that's exactly my concern.  We don't usually go days and days without some communication, either of us.  I don't know why he's doing it now, but for me to do it is also strange.

On the other hand several of you have said he probably wants some space and that should be respected too.  I can do that -- I don't have any trouble waiting out periods of silence and distance.  Nor do I need any particular response from him ... .  I am not scared of what I will hear back or anything, I just want to respect his space if that is what he is tacitly asking for by being unexpectedly and unusually silent.

But do you see that choosing between those two pieces of very reasonable-sounding advice (reach out, he'll expect that ... .  vs. give him space, he clearly wants that) is choosing between two opposite approaches?  It is not obvious what is the right thing to do.  That is why I come here and ask for your perspectives before acting.

I am not obsessing about him, or whether to be in touch with him.  Not sure where that is coming from.  I have a full life and am actively engaged in it.  This r/s blew me completely to smithereens for quite a while but learning about BPD, a prolonged period of strict NC (10 months), re-engaging with him & really seeing how his emotional tripwires play out -- all of that has helped me to move on with my own life.

That doesn't mean he isn't a very important part of my life and vice versa. He has claimed that space in my world and I have claimed that space in his -- it's been real and mutual, though by far the strangest close friendship I've ever had. And it deserves to be handled thoughtfully.  I have tried to be thoughtful and not just blunder around doing whatever felt right -- I don't think that is really the message of Staying.  Very often my own longing (causing me to want to reach out) or anger/hurt (causing me to want to distance him/create a barrier because I take personally what he's done) would lead me to take actions that are actually not very wise.

The idea that I should just treat him like any other friend ... .  well, I don't get that.  We don't treat BPD partners just like we would other partners, right?  That wouldn't work well.  Our friendship is this weird tender intimate-but-space-giving respectful occasionally rocky thing that has everything to do with the fact that we were partners and know each other intimately and ... .  he is not just like a regular friend, never will be, and if I'm not mindful of that there won't be much left.

SB et al., I appreciate you pushing me, but I don't agree that BPD is not the issue at this point. I have no difficulty figuring out how to interact with any other individuals in my life.  This man's reactions are so counter-intuitive to me and building trust with him is so challenging, because of who he is, and because of my own quasi-traumatic instincts in the aftermath of what happened in our romantic r/s, that it helps to get the insights of others to help me stay grounded and oriented.  Please understand that I am "Staying" at present.  I am trying to build and protect an important relationship, albeit with an accurate view of what it is and isn't; not get away from it.

As I posted elsewhere recently, I am the kind of person who examines extensively before acting, and having acted, I usually don't spend time or energy on regret.  That examination ahead of time is what y'all see when I ask for your thoughts about what to do.  In the end, I have about zero regrets about how I've handled things with him from day one, and that's why -- regardless of this week's funkiness -- I believe we have a strong and meaningful friendship, which as we know is not that easy to achieve.

Please just trust that there is more to my life than my occasional posts here asking for advice!

[laelle]

Let him ask for space before you give it.    Your not a mind reader.  From what you tell me he invites you over, you go to dinner, you talk just about every day. He was concerned about how you were going to handle him leaving. That is a relationship.  All BPD relationships are odd, but they work for some.  For now its a friendship and a little more, but dont short change a friendship.  They are precious.

Can generate a whole city's worth of electricity on your thinking energy P&C.  

I do agree with SB tho.  Really this isnt about him, this is about your fear you will take the wrong step or do the wrong thing.  

He is no where in that.  There is just no perfect and you will drive yourself   trying.

[patientandclear]

... .  and an update.  He emailed. He said realized he was "so happy to be home," which is what he realized it felt like being on the road.  He's in hermit/traveler mode completely, which again, I respect -- it's not who I thought he was when we fell in love, but it's where he is now, and I think he is doing important work figuring out who, and how, he wants to be in the world.  He said to send news.  So, we're reconnected, and by his choice, which is a salve to my abandonment scars.

Anyway, momentary question answered.  I hope you all understand how much I appreciate your advice & insights, and that it is not dysfunctional for me to ask for them sometimes when I can't quite trust my own instincts about what is best.

[patientandclear]

Let him ask for space before you give it.    Your not a mind reader.  From what you tell me he invites you over, you go to dinner, you talk just about every day. He was concerned about how you were going to handle him leaving. That is a relationship.  All BPD relationships are odd, but they work for some.  For now its a friendship and a little more, but dont short change a friendship.  They are precious.

Can generate a whole city's worth of electricity on your thinking energy P&C.  

I do agree with SB tho.  Really this isnt about him, this is about your fear you will take the wrong step or do the wrong thing.  

He is no where in that.  There is just no perfect and you will drive yourself   trying.

Thanks so much for that Laelle.  Yes, it IS about my fear I will take the wrong step or do the wrong thing.  Not quite sure I can totally shed that because he is no ordinary bear, but it helps hearing you saying there is no perfect and it's OK to take where we are and have been at face value, & I don't need to read his mind.

Thank you.  

[rosannadanna]

Hey P & C,

I have disagree with Laelle's last post.  

You wrote this:

In the end, I have about zero regrets about how I've handled things with him from day one, and that's why -- regardless of this week's funkiness -- I believe we have a strong and meaningful friendship, which as we know is not that easy to achieve.

A relationship in which you are doing contortions to avoid regret is not authentic.  I think the avoidance of regret of doing the wrong thing translates into avoidance of the pain of possibly being abandoned by this guy (b/c you make a mistake).  These are corrective relationships in which our child selves try to correct something from our past, but that is a fantasy.  The real corrective experience is grieving that fantasy and gaining enormous insight into ourselves.  Waht is so compelling about trying to be "perfect" so this guy will engage in a "relationship" with you?  

[seeking balance]

cross-posted

I can hear that I think too much and over-think these things (  Laelle).  But that's a little bit at odds with the message of "don't make things worse" of the staying board.  I am asking for advice on how to not make things worse with this man who is and has been an important part of my life ... .  I still don't find it all that intuitive how to deal with these dips in the road, especially periods of unexpected silence.

How is this silence unexpected - isn't he moving and busy with other things?

How would contacting him "make things worse"?

The staying board has many objectives besides not making things worse.

I really appreciate insights about what might be going on with him.

NOBODY here knows what is going on with him, we are not in his head.  It is not this difficult, if you want to reach out, then do - if you don't don't.  

But do you see that choosing between those two pieces of very reasonable-sounding advice (reach out, he'll expect that ... .  vs. give him space, he clearly wants that) is choosing between two opposite approaches?  It is not obvious what is the right thing to do.  That is why I come here and ask for your perspectives before acting.

these are all opinions, and there are always going to be opposite sides of any discussion. Ultimately, this is about you, your needs - not him.

I am not obsessing about him, or whether to be in touch with him.  Not sure where that is coming from.  

It is coming from some variation of the same question for the last month.  You seem to want to focus on what he is doing or thinking rather than what you want or need - focus on what you want.  If you want to call him, do it.  If he doesn't call back - then you post here and we will help you with your emotions - then next time you know now to do that.  Again, this is really about you - not BPD.

He didn't ask for space from you, did he?  

Let me ask you this, if he did not have BPD - would you keep him as a friend or have these same expectations?  

 I have tried to be thoughtful and not just blunder around doing whatever felt right -- I don't think that is really the message of Staying.  Very often my own longing (causing me to want to reach out) or anger/hurt (causing me to want to distance him/create a barrier because I take personally what he's done) would lead me to take actions that are actually not very wise.

Again, he is just a friend moving across country - perhaps practice right here your TEXT to him if you did reach out and get feedback.  The staying board has tools - using them and letting the members here help you with them is wise.

I don't agree that BPD is not the issue at this point.  I have no difficulty figuring out how to interact with any other individuals in my life.  This man's reactions are so counter-intuitive to me and building trust with him is so challenging, because of who he is, and because of my own quasi-traumatic instincts in the aftermath of what happened in our romantic r/s, that it helps to get the insights of others to help me stay grounded and oriented.

ok - what would you do with any other exbf in this exact same situation?

As I posted elsewhere recently, I am the kind of person who examines extensively before acting, and having acted, I usually don't spend time or energy on regret.  That examination ahead of time is what y'all see when I ask for your thoughts about what to do.  In the end, I have about zero regrets about how I've handled things with him from day one, and that's why -- regardless of this week's funkiness -- I believe we have a strong and meaningful friendship, which as we know is not that easy to achieve.

Please just trust that there is more to my life than my occasional posts here asking for advice!

Today I read a post from you on another board, that you discuss "not looking to do my patented codependent savior act" - was this about the same person?

If so, can you see where maybe this is about you trying to gain some control about his side of the friendship because of what you need?  

If this is true - this is more about you, your personal inventory and not about BPD.  

Is it possible you are using the boards to self-soothe your insecurities?  It's ok, just know it's about you and not really about his BPD at the moment.

[Phoenix.Rising]

I get where you are coming from.  If you can be his friend without losing yourself, then do it!  It takes great health, commitment, strength, and understanding.  I'm glad you've been there for him; I'm sure not very many people have.   

I could not separate my eros love from philia love.  My passion was too hot, and it was burning me from the inside out.  I can possibly see myself navigating some kind of friendship on down the road, but I don't know, and I have no hopes for that.  I need to take care of me right now.  I think the main point people are trying to make is be sure you are taking care of YOU first.

[patientandclear]

PR -- thank you so much, as ever, for that. I really really appreciate your support as I try to do this in a way that is healthy both for me & for him.  There's almost no road map, so comprehension about why I am trying it, especially when I stumble around unsure of myself, is so nice.

SB -- thank you, too.  Yes, I used to have extreme co-dependent tendencies.  I don't anymore; had to shed them after lots of pain and suffering in another r/s, after which I was alone & perfectly happy for 5 years before this man came along.  Without boring you guys more than you already have been with the details of this r/s, the end of my co-dependency is why I didn't go back into a romantic r/s with this man when he offered, after he'd abandoned our r/s without warning for no apparent reason. I said there was something going on with him that needed to be understood before we should try again and that wasn't my business.  I have not made it my business (changing him that is).

My business IS our friendship, something we both say we want and have made a significant commitment to.  It seems to me that understanding where he's at IS a part of having a viable friendship with him.  Is that a crazy idea?  He is a very unusual person emotionally. Y'all know the score there.

You are right that my own insecurities are why I need your help & advice though.  They're not general insecurities, they're particular to him and him chronically pulling me close and pushing me away, having told me I was the best thing ever to happen to him and then that he needed to end the r/s and barely knew why.  It is really really hard not to be insecure in a r/s or friendship where that goes on, and I'm still learning.

I am improving in my acceptance that this is who he is.  I no longer doubt that he will push me away (i.e., it doesn't surprise me, I expect it, it doesn't hurt like it used to) and I no longer really doubt he will return.  I don't expect it to change.  But for me to reach out to someone who has previously rejected me and has unexpectedly gone silent ... .  yes, it requires swimming upstream against my insecurities and hurts.  That's why hearing Laelle say "hell yes, he expects to hear from you, ya big galunk!" is SO helpful. It helps me get past my self-protective retreat instinct and remember that I DO know he wants this, too.

So sure, it's about me, but it's about me in relationship this very strange albeit very wonderful person.  Helping me de-code his actions helps me more fully be myself and comfortable in my own skin -- and yes, that's entirely because I'm injured and still healing from a deep wound he inflicted.

Y'all are great.

[rosannadanna]

I also wanted to say, Please read and re-read Maria1's posts on this thread.  I think she makes some brilliant points about him having a totally different point of view on your relationship and may place less importance on it than you do.  I also think she makes a good point that if this guy is really an untreated BPD, then it is really hard to imagine that he is going on a journey for the sole purpose of "self-exploration", even if he was high-functioning or of the "hermit" type.  I don't know much about those types, b/c my dude is more of a male waif, but I do know that when he wasn't idealizing me, he tended to turn away from me and we started on the path to breakupville.  It was usually made worse (for my dignity) to remain in contact when we were hanging by a thread.  He would be nice to me, but it had a patronizing flavor to it.  His main goal was to "make a fresh start" which I think translates into "make the pain go away" and the thread of contact was a remnant of the pain.  He could tolerate as long as he was just "friendly" but not too close.  This was not a true friendship.  This was child me avoiding the pain of grieving the end of the fantasy.

What helped me was to imagine he was dead.  I know that sounds awful, but it kind of goes back to Yeeter's question of "have you imagined your future without him in it?"  

I don't mean to sound harsh and I don't have any room for judgement, b/c I re-engaged with my ex, too.  This is just my opinion.  Everyone's pro's and con's list is different and you will decide what you want.

[almost789]

I agree with Rossanna, if you have to worry about your actions with him to the point where you have to ask if its ok to do something so simple as drop him a line  or not before you proceed for fear of a regretable act you are walking on eggshells bigtime. Is that really security that your afraid if you drop him a line it could be a regrettable act for your friendship? You should really not regret anything about being yourself.

Also, if hes travelling I agree with SB, its a busy time when you traveling you may have some more silent stints than usual based soley on the fact that traveling is a very busy time.

[seeking balance]

so, were you talking about the same person in the other thread?  I guess my direct question is there only 1 BPDex or is there another one you refer to that I am confusing?

[almost789]

I was wondering too Patient. How is he going to "find himself" whilst maintaining an intimate friendship with you when intimacy is the thing which gives them such difficulty. Now I know he's 'away' but I also know how these internet emotional connections are anything but distant regardless of how far away he lives.  He doesn't know where he's going saturday the day he leaves, he's going to sleep in parks, now he's home? Its just that everything here seems so inconsistent. I think thats whey your getting responses like this.

[patientandclear]

SB: Only one BPDex.  On the other thread, I was writing about how when I met this uBPDex (same guy), I thought he was healthy.  It was my big growth experience -- to be with someone who didn't need to be save/fixed.  That's why it hurt so damn much when it turned out he was a deeply wounded person, not healthy, not able to have a happy ending with me like we both said at the beginning.  But I didn't try to save him.  I didn't get re-involved with him.  I flagged that there were issues bigger than me & left them alone.  That is a million miles from how I used to deal with things further in my past (in my awful marriage). And again, I am still not trying to change, fix or save this guy.  The "friends" thing is where I can be if he is not dramatically transformed into someone who can meet me at home for dinner every night, you know? And he is not that.

I was wondering too Patient. How is he going to "find himself" whilst maintaining an intimate friendship with you when intimacy is the thing which gives them such difficulty. Now I know he's 'away' but I also know how these internet emotional connections are anything but distant regardless of how far away he lives.

I think I am intimacy practice for him (not saying this is why I am doing it, mind you! But why it may not be unhealthy for him).  We don't have sex, which is super hard for him (he is a childhood sex abuse survivor). The rules of our relationship allow distance and coming & going, in the way that most romantic partnerships don't. This sort of works for him.  It's still hard.  We get really close.  I can see in his face that it means a lot.  For the next day or so there's such an intensity in his communication.  Then he disappears.  When he reappears, sometimes he has a grievance that he presents me in a relatively calm and reasonable way -- I can tell he's been processing it for a while in order to get it into that calmer frame.  We deal.  We reestablish goodwill.  I think, possibly, I am enough of a human anchor for him (along with his kids) that he can otherwise be alone, if that makes sense.  I think he is learning how to be "with" someone without becoming that person, or that person taking him over.  We spend a lot of time appreciating our differences -- kind of an anti-mirroring exercise.  I think this is new to him.

There is a huge difference between what we are doing now, and the enmeshment/merger thing that was going on when we were first in love.  That, yes, would be at odds with his growth, no doubt.  This is a non-total, voluntary, chosen intimacy based on reality.  I think it is good because it is not all or nothing, and he is making it co-exist with his individual development.  He is responsible to me and appreciates me, and that too is good practice given that he periodically deeply mistrusts me or fears our closeness. He works himself through that & finds me again.

Does that make sense?

[almost789]

Yes it does, but it does seem inconsistent to me that he is 'going away" so to speak to find himself and you all have this "not too intimate" relationship and yet he's been gone 2 days? And you and him are connecting again already. If it works for you great! It just seems to me to be a bit emotionally connected for someone who is trying to get away and find himself. And really I don't see "not having sex" as meaning "less intimacy" since men don't always equate sex as intimacy, but the feelings and emotions are. Most of these BPD types want the sex without emotions, cause it is the feelings and emotions that get them all messsed up. These are just my thoughts no judgement.

[patientandclear]

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear about him leaving.  He left town to travel indefinitely, suddenly.  But it was never presented as leaving me.  In fact when I said I was sad about it he looked at me like he didn't understand & said he wasn't falling off the face of the earth.  I don't think he intends to be any more apart from me than he was while here in town -- except obviously, we won't be seeing each other.

His being alone to find his own way -- he was already approaching life that way when I reconnected with him seven months ago.  He's had some discomfort figuring out what to do with me in his life -- it seemed clear he was contemplating whether we could get back together (not saying I would have), then decided against it, and since then, has sometimes zoomed way in & sometimes way back.  But all of it without the bounds of (i) not having sex and (ii) not superficial.  It's intimate, and weird, and sort of defies a name.  It is the most intimacy he can do quasi-consistently, I think.  And he seems to be able to integrate it with his own work on himself.  That's why I'm willing to slog around in the murkiness -- I don't think it's unhealthy for either of us.  But HOW to do it confuses me, partly because there is no handbook on what this is or how you go about it.