should I reach out or leave him be?

[almost789]

Oh, no I knew he wasn't abandoning you that was clear. I just thought you two would be having some more distance. My misunderstanding. I'm glad you are feeling better about it!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[LetItBe]

 It really IS sometimes so counterintuitive how to communicate with our pwBPD, isn't it?

I'm glad you're feeling better about things now, too.

[patientandclear]

The one thing I am quite sure of is that he isn't involved now with someone else, nor is he headed off to be with someone else. He wasn't sure where he was going even a week ago.  He seems to be falling in love with himself, in a good way for someone w/BPD--I think more and more, he is creating & appreciating his "self" somewhat to the exclusion of deep ties to others.  I respect that. I do n't know if ever, on the other side of that, he'll have room for a different kind of r/s than he's always pursued in the past, & I'm not worried about that right now.

I am really sorry that I'm pushing this but you can't be sure. You can 100% believe you are sure, that's all.

People with BPD find their identity and sense of self through others, unless they have had extensive and specialist therapy. That does seem to be a well established fact from these boards.

But you believe this man is so amazing and special he is managing to find his own sense of self without any therapy? How?

P & C I'm sorry but I am just not convinced one little bit. I want to be, I really do but I think his travel is not what it appears to be because I know BPD and it doesn't involve being alone without the promise and hope of not being.

Maria, thought I would take a stab at answering this.  I don't think he is able to do this because he is amazing and special ... .  I do think he has stumbled onto one piece of BPD recovery without any formal help, but he is still making it happen for him -- and that is, learning to stand alone and not depend on others for his sense of self, and developing a "self" for the first time (he talks in those terms).  The more he does that, he further he gets from wanting a r/s.  All of which seems mighty healthy.  And distances him further away from the union we had originally, which was absolutely driven by his desperate need to be rescued and to merge with me.

However, I'd say that without help & guidance from someone good, he may not be able to make the leap from this to the idea that he actually CAN have a r/s with someone that is based on companionship and the aligning of separate selves, rather than merger.  I think he still thinks relationships are about merger and right now that is anathema to him. The idea that you can relate in some other way, and cherish and love someone without losing yourself -- I don't think he's familiar with that.

I do think this man is unusual is his willingness to push himself toward personal growth -- the way yours is unusual in his insight and ability to articulate his feelings of not being able to accept love.  If he happened to stumble into DBT, I bet he'd really benefit from that.  But he seems to have identified by his own trial and error some of the core principles of DBT and is trying to apply them on his own.  Who knew?  Wasn't what I expected when I reconnected with him, for sure.  I'd been on here reading about the lack of a sense of self, and then I met up with him, and he was saying "I feel like I lose myself in relationships and I need to work on defining myself before I do anything beyond that."

[maria1]

Thanks P & C- it's really interesting. I don't discount the possibility at all and I know how self aware my own ex can be. I do think the self awareness can be a strength but what I don't get is why you believe that your ex tells you the truth.

I want to believe that my ex tells me the truth- I still don't know but I have caught him in so many lies where I absolutely believed what he said to be true.

Maybe, thinking about it, what your pwBPD reminds me of with his journey is what my ex said to me when he ended our relationship.

He said he needed to make the last steps of his recovery from his suicide attempt on his own, that he needed to not rely on anybody. He said that he knew he was becoming abusive to me and that he became like that in all his relationships (he didn't use the word abusive). He said he had to learn to stand on his own two feet; he had tears in his eyes as he said all this. He said he loved me too much to be with me. He said loads more about where he was with his life and how he knew he needed to be alone, that it was going to be painful but he had to take these last steps on his own or he would never recover.

I absolutely respected and understood everything he said. I absolutely got it even though it broke my heart. I would NEVER have guessed he was actually seeing somebody else. 2 weeks later I found out that he was. I know that, if I'd never found that out I would probably still believe he had never seen anybody in all this time. He tells a very good tale of living the quiet life for him and his son. But there is always a woman somewhere in the background. She might not tick the same boxes I did but she serves a purpose none the less.

I still cannot tell when my pwBPD lies. He lies all the time. I cannot comprehend how he spins such a convincing reality from lies. He appears to be the most genuine person i thought I'd ever met.

But my pwBPD is one person and your pwBPD is another. I guess I just urge huge caution with believing him. Because I know how convincing they can be. And lying is symptomatic of the disorder. If your pwBPD doesn't tell lies he will be unique on here I think.

But we are all individuals and you know him. As I said before all of this is your choice and I absolutely respect the work you put in on this guy.

I just don't want you to get hurt- but you know that as I've said it to you before!  

[patientandclear]

Great analysis Maria, and as ever, the details of what your ex shared with you are pretty heart-breaking.  My ex was similar when he proposed getting back together 20 months ago.  He got cold feet when I said "yes if you look at your issues." He was working with a T then, said she thought we should not try again then, & that he needed to learn to be alone.  I thought that's what he was doing.  Imagine my surprise when, like you, I was being his loyal supportive friend, and I discovered he was meeting up with his exgf and being every bit as close with her as he was with me.  I knew where it was going & cut off contact because I felt so betrayed.  Sure enough, he got back together with her for a while.

The reason I think he is alone now, though, isn't that he's told me -- we actually haven't discussed either of our dating status at all.  It's just from watching.  He is incredibly alone right now.  He texts all evening long, he is available to have dinner with me most any night.  He is incredibly averse to sex because of his abuse history, I imagine.  He seems pretty far down the hermit road.  That's not where he started but seems to be the defining quality of the last year.  And now he's heading out to travel ... .  he wouldn't have left anyone he's seeing, and he won't be forming intimate bonds as he hoboes around.  I rather think that's why it feels good to him right now.

The evolution of a BPD hermit ... .  I know it's only one way this all turns out, but I think that's what I'm watching.  And of course -- yes-- I could be wrong!

If he DOES get involved with anyone, I can't imagine it lasting more than a moment.  He is so fragile and triggered by everything, and so doesn't want to be invaded by someone else.

[maria1]

Well, my ex would be available to have dinner most any night. He'd just make some excuse to whoever he was with, like he did with me occasionally and I just thought it was reasonable.

And my ex is perfectly capable of texting/ emailing me or anybody else most nights, except on the nights when he isn't. And I always put that down to him needing space, or alone time. I remember sitting texting him very deep conversations after we split. He was slap bang in the middle of the idealisation phase with my replacement but still capable of feeding me what I needed to keep me going- or so he thought. (It felt wrong that I still needed that somehow so I pulled back, but he would have continued, even through his r/s)

I believe it is dangerous for people like you and I (and I do think we have huge similarities, although you are much more patient, and much more clear to name but two qualities that you possess!) to be around people like our BPD exes because we see what we want to see. It is a part of the lonely child personality type, a coping mechanism if you like.

When your BPDex disappears it is because the abandonment fears are triggered yes, but that space may well be filled with other people who don't trigger so much. You don't want to see that because if you saw that it would actually be too painful. So, even though last time he hurt you so badly by being involved with somebody else, this time you haven't even asked for fear of hurting him or being intrusive.

Why aren't you as important as him? Why aren't you more important than him?

I 'm not trying to get you out of this with your ex. Heaven knows I want this to work- I really want to believe that pwBPDs can have our friendship. They need it and deserve it. I'm just still not sure whether it's possible for us to give it in the way they demand it. As much as you say you are living your life I see you scared of losing this man again and I'm worried that will slowly and quietly, eat you up, little by little, so you don't even notice it.

Just don't take what you see at face value. You learned a lesson last time that what he shows you on the surface isn't necessarily real. Protect yourself with circumspection based on facts only, not assumptions.

In November my ex was emailing me, telling me sincerely how much he loved me. I recently saw his new girlfriend's FB page and that she had changed her status to 'in a relationship' at exactly the same time. I saw all her friends excited comments- she's a widow only 18 months out of the death of her young husband. I was lucky that I saw my ex friend her for 1 week. Yes I still am looking for clues because I still cannot believe that my ex can behave in the way that he does. His actions completely contradict his words and completely contradict what I see and what I instinctively feel.

To borrow from another poster who borrowed from John Cusack's character in High Fidelity '"I've been listening to my gut since I was 13 years old... .  I've come to the conclusion my gut is full of s***."

If your ex is off in traveler/ hermit mode then that may be a good and positive journey for him. I would still say keep it light- don't worry so much about how to respond/ not respond.There's still some fixing going on there. Put your tool kit away for a few weeks and give yourself a break from thinking about him. I know he is in your head!

Put P & C first x

   

[maria1]

PS I know I'm laying my BPDex over your BPDex here and they aren't the same person! I do know that so much of our experiences have been the same, and the pull back seems so very similar too. Despite my ex's actions and his split between actions/ words and everything else I say here, I am not sure I would turn him away or just keep walking if he reached out again (and he probably will).

I feel so sad for the disorder, I feel so sad for my ex living with the disorder. I do believe he loves me in his way and I do believe our 'friendship' means/ meant something to him. Just as I believe yours absolutely does too.

I also know the constant shifting is just too confusing for me, even as friends. I don't like to see that confusion in you I guess, which is maybe why I keep on at you! 

[almost789]

This is one of the most unusual BPD men I have heard of. I've never heard of a BPD male who didn't need others to fuel their self image. I also, have never heard of a BPD male who was capable of finding his own self all on his own by as patient says "hobeing" around and also maintaining an intimate long term friendship with a woman he cares for. Very extrordinary indeed.

[patientandclear]

SummerT321: well, BPD hermit is a well-established path, so I don't think this is unknown or even all that unusual. This man is 50. I think he's perhaps tired & can't sustain the constant euphoria & devastation of his r/s cycles.  If I'm right about his hermit path, I also don't think it's surprising that it would be handy for him to maintain a sometimes-close r/s with me--I allow him to not feel completely disconnected as he roams about.

But Maria's point & LGO2's implicit point, that I don't know for sure & that all is never as it seems, is valid. Maria, like you, I was carrying on as friends with him soon after the breakup while he was reinitiating w/his exgf, & had I not stumbled upon proof, I might not have discerned it from his behavior with me.

I guess the take-away is that this is why I originally told him he would have to work on gaining insight into his intimacy patterns for us to get back together as a romantic couple. He hasn't. And why I only got back in touch on terms of friendship. Because I don't want terms he cannot sustain or that I can't trust that he will sustain. Right now, though it would require a deep breath & some posting here, him dating someone else wouldn't violate and agreement or promise we've made to each other. Because I can't be sure, I need to keep it that way. I have no expectation that our emotional r/s is exclusive. Nor do I need it to be. It stands on its own value to us both; it isn't meant to preclude other relationships, which is how I can have made a plan to go make out with my occasional date who is non-monogamous but still nice & fun, tonight, without feeling like I'm betraying my BPDex.

I woud want more with him, yes, if he were in a different place. Maria, it has always sounded like the same is true about you & your BPDex. When you first reconnected w/him & were talking to him about BPD & treatment, if he had resonded differently, & not gone into "myT says that's not what's going on" mode, it seems like you would have considered going further w/him. But despite all his occasional insights, he preferred to move on w/someone else than do the hard work of changing. My ex is the same. He could be changing, I wish he would, but he's not, not in a sense that would allow me to have expectations of a more full r/s.

So I have registered that & therefore am doing this friends thing that can adapt to what he can give/do from moment to moment, since it changes so fast.  I am aware though that even this could end suddenly. Themis, a new member, posted an intro story about that hppening to her w/her ex with whom she is now intimate friends. Yet he ended even that suddenly. But I am not ssuming that is foretold here. I will see what happens. Your reminders that much may behidden from me are correct--that's a good caution to prevent me from misunderstanding what I have here.

[maria1]

It sounds like you have it all covered P & C and have thought things well through- I really do wish you and him positive stuff through this. I still swing between thinking a friendship with pwBPD is possible- I would love for it to be.

My hope for my ex to get treatment wasn't for me and him. I think he will probably get back to therapy in the end- I think his T maybe was playing the long game with him and knew exactly what she was doing. He will have a few more brushes with a self that destroys too much and realise that he needs to change. He has had that inside him all along.

He said he would go continue with therapy and asked me if I would reconsider us a year down the line. I had to say no. I know I would never trust him again, even after years of therapy. I knew 'we' couldn't be fixed, even if me and him could be fixed separately.

His therapist was signed off sick for 6 months- he told me he got a letter- I didn't believe him and actually made him show me the letter (!)

Its about halfway through that now, do you never know!

[almost789]

Just curious what a "hermit" type is? I've not read anything on it. Does that mean they are loners? Mine is a loner. But, he has his online clan of women I believe he can keep at a distance. I was the only one he would see in person. As far as I know. Due to logistics and other things I'm pretty sure I was. But, my idea with yours is that he can't find himself on his own. That just doens't happen Patient. They have no sense of self and this doesn't come by means of traveling around like us healthy people and finding out what we like, it is a completely different thing here. Psychologists explain this in detail it is a self which was never formed in infancy and childhood. He's not going to find that by traveling around and exploring his likes and dislikes. He needs intensive therapy and even then the odds are not that great.

[rosannadanna]

SummerT321,

2010 wrote:

Paranoia and Borderline personality disorder combine into Hermit Borderline. Hermit's are usually second generation (or more) because of Witch Mothers. Witch Mothers are abusive, erratic, dramatic and generally out of control. Because of this, her child becomes traumatized. As the child grows into an adult, there is no safety and security except in hiding, so the frequent bouts of post trauma stress have created a barrier at developing the self and getting on and out in the World. Eventually, the young adult turns into a Hermit and rarely feels comfort at mingling with the rest of Humanity. Instead, it's Paranoia he feels.

Hermits will want to feel walled-in and safe from predators (which he believes his Mother is.) According to Christine Lawson, "they retreat into the blackness that threatens to consume them." Hermits are terrified of not having control- and suicide is the ultimate form of control to them. They feel robbed and violated as children- and live in fear of domination as well as desertion.

"The Hermit is a perfectionist, a worrier, and like most Borderlines, an insomniac. Their anxieties can keep them awake at night" (Lawson pg.80) IMO, this is generally the basis for the incorrect diagnosis of Bi-polar.

Gerald Adler (1985) explains that borderlines constantly seek out others to provide a sense of self, to "keep separation anxiety in check and to avoid annihilation panic."  Hermits want to be left alone, not abandoned, just not bothered. Their inner experience is persecution. Hermits expect to lose what they need; consequently, they are possessive and controlling. They can also punish those they loved by shutting them out. When angry, they confront family members with a stony wall of silence. They are also intensely jealous and can accuse their spouses of infidelity despite having no evidence to support their beliefs. They may also be superstitious and overreact to pain and illness.

The worst trait of a Hermit is to evoke guilt and anxiety in others. This is used to control and project anxiety.  Hermits will become their own worst enemies and the greatest threat to their *own* survival. They may grow weary of feeling constantly threatened and decide that dying, paradoxically, is their ultimate act of protection against the dangers of living.

What to do?

1) Reevaluate rather than react to the Hermit's fear. Anxiety is contagious while living with a fearful, paranoid Hermit. You must learn to rely on your own perception, intuition and judgment.

2) He can't give you something that he doesn't have- namely peace of mind.  A Hermit cannot provide you with emotional support. The Hermit will catastrophize insignificant events and make mountains out of molehills. Do not let him undermine your self confidence.

3) Panic prevents a Hermit from thinking clearly. This is a subset of PTSD and has nothing to do with you. Believe in yourself and your basic goodness.

4) Expect rejection to follow closeness. Warm interactions are often followed by paranoid accusations. Protect yourself by keeping the interactions brief and by ending conversations following positive interactions.


5) Calmly maintain your perspective.

6) Being alone is his choice, not yours.

7) Respond to paranoia with reason, not ridicule. Do not tease or exacerbate the fear.

8) Point out the consequences of irrational fear but do not minimize or ridicule. Point out the consequences of actualized fear instead.  Why are you anxious? What is the problem? How can I solve the problem? Answering these three simple questions can keep a Hermit calm.

9) Set limits to preserve your own sanity. Step 1: Confirm your separateness with "I" statements rather than "you"

Step 2: Create structure: "I will"

Step 3: Clarify consequences: "I won't"

You cannot sacrifice your life, your sanity and your health to protect a Hermit. Because the Hermit fears living, the only choice is to leave him alone."

Here is the thread that I found this on:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=171671.0

P & C,

Does this sound like your guy?

[rosannadanna]

The worst trait of a Hermit is to evoke guilt and anxiety in others. This is used to control and project anxiety.  Hermits will become their own worst enemies and the greatest threat to their *own* survival. They may grow weary of feeling constantly threatened and decide that dying, paradoxically, is their ultimate act of protection against the dangers of living.

What to do?

1) Reevaluate rather than react to the Hermit's fear. Anxiety is contagious while living with a fearful, paranoid Hermit. You must learn to rely on your own perception, intuition and judgment.

2) He can't give you something that he doesn't have- namely peace of mind.  A Hermit cannot provide you with emotional support. The Hermit will catastrophize insignificant events and make mountains out of molehills. Do not let him undermine your self confidence.

3) Panic prevents a Hermit from thinking clearly. This is a subset of PTSD and has nothing to do with you. Believe in yourself and your basic goodness.

4) Expect rejection to follow closeness. Warm interactions are often followed by paranoid accusations. Protect yourself by keeping the interactions brief and by ending conversations following positive interactions.

5) Calmly maintain your perspective.

6) Being alone is his choice, not yours.

7) Respond to paranoia with reason, not ridicule. Do not tease or exacerbate the fear.

8) Point out the consequences of irrational fear but do not minimize or ridicule. Point out the consequences of actualized fear instead.  Why are you anxious? What is the problem? How can I solve the problem? Answering these three simple questions can keep a Hermit calm.

9) Set limits to preserve your own sanity. Step 1: Confirm your separateness with "I" statements rather than "you"

Step 2: Create structure: "I will"

Step 3: Clarify consequences: "I won't"

You cannot sacrifice your life, your sanity and your health to protect a Hermit. Because the Hermit fears living, the only choice is to leave him alone."

 

Not all of 2010's quote was italicized, so I wanted to send a correction post.  I don't want to take credit for 2010's brilliance

[patientandclear]

P & C,

Does this sound like your guy?

Yes, a lot.  There's some other material around about BPD hermits and how they can evolve out of an earlier pattern of frantic attempts to form attachments.  Ultimately they sort of give up.  That seems to be my guy.

It still, after all this time, makes me wince to read "expect rejection to follow closeness."  What's so marked about our r/s is that I think I am pretty conscious of triggers and avoid them; I am good at avoiding engulfment threats too; yet his pattern is to withdraw as soon as things are at their best between us.  The most recent example is this current one.  In the days before he left, he was super open and close with me, showing me a bit of his confusion and regret and stress.  I couldn't have been warmer or more supportive of him, without breaking down into hysterics that he was leaving or declaring my undying love (see my earlier thread on whether to do that! )

Then, he left.  Now I have barely heard from him -- it's as if texting doesn't work from "the road."

Rosanna, by the way, I'm not sure what happened to your earlier post (from yesterday?) on this thread, about "how can you have a real r/s when you are so anxious to avoid regret that you cannot freely act?" but I wanted to say I am really really mulling over that question.  Over the past few months, before he *&#%#$! left!, I had gotten better about being myself and feeling less afraid to say what I wanted to say with him.  That improved dynamic has now been at least interrupted by his departure, my anxiety around that, and sudden near-silence, but I think I need to return to that practice if I want to continue this connection.  It felt better to be less afraid.

[LetItBe]

But, my idea with yours is that he can't find himself on his own.

The odds are that this is true.  This is what it sounds like he's attempting right now, though.  Perhaps this part of his journey will help him realize just that -- the he can't find himself on his own.

My uBPDbf is a Hermit type, too.  He actually spent 7 years without dating anyone.  He loved someone from afar that didn't return the love, but other than that, he isolated himself from romantic attachments.  Sex was strange to him, and it took him awhile to feel okay with wanting it.  It might seem rare, but as my therapist friend reminds me, not all pwBPD are going to fit every category.

There's some other material around about BPD hermits and how they can evolve out of an earlier pattern of frantic attempts to form attachments.  Ultimately they sort of give up.  That seems to be my guy.

Sounds like my guy, too.  After his mom died when he was a child, a lot of family members failed to come through for him, and he recognizes that a lot of his issues come from that, not only from losing his mom.

The idea of needing something from someone is new (and uncomfortable) for him.  He always felt he was alone and had to do things on his own, like your guy is doing right now.

[almost789]

Thank you Rossanna, GF and Patient,

Mine definitely has some hermit traits. With the isolation, even though he works a high functioning job. He goes home in the evenings and pretty much turns into a hermit. Though he doesn't fit exactly. I don't think these personality disorders fit perfectly into slots and they all have differing traits of differing things. But that article on hermit BPD's is really valuable. Thank you!

[maria1]

This is a bit of a light bulb moment for me- I have always wondered whether mine was possibly co morbid bipolar also. He struggles with depression and when low he lies in the dark and isolates himself from people- very much the hermit description to a T. Suicidal thoughts loom.

He also seems to experience a manic high when the hermit recedes. If anything his rages seem like manic highs with huge amounts of energy expelled into the anger that can keep him going for days at a time without sleep. He plots ridiculous revenge on people that are similar to bipolar spending sprees or highs when crazy plans are made. When he calms again he sees his behaviour as quite crazy.

Maybe they can end up alone- I don't believe anything mine tells me any more so its hard to get a balance.

[rosannadanna]

P & C you wrote:

"That improved dynamic has now been at least interrupted by his departure, my anxiety around that, and sudden near-silence, but I think I need to return to that practice if I want to continue this connection."

How do you define connection now, in this moment?  He hasn't contacted since leaving, so it doesn't seem like a connection on his end (and we can't get in his head to know if he is trying to communicate with you telepathically ).

How about returning to that practice for you?

This is what I see as your possible future with this hermit who has "given up" on attachments.  He left town for what ever reason.  You will monitor your phone for possible text communications.  You hope that he comes back.  If he comes back, you hope you can resume a romantic relationship.  This is what I have gotten from your threads.

Based on what I just read about hermits (can you tell I have way too much down time at work this week? sheesh), this type is driven by fear of being dominated.  In their purest form, they sound like a feral cat hiding the brush that you have to coax to feel safe enough to trust you.  Assuming your dude comes back and assuming he still has romantic feelings for you, how long is it going to take you to coax him back into an intimate relationship?  Or will this ever happen b/c according to you, he has "given up" trying to have attachments.

You seem comfortable right now to be the pursuer to his distancer and you seem to be sustained by your hope that you will have the outcome you desire.  How long do you think you will be comfortable with this dynamic?  Because based on the info about the hermit type, it could be the dynamic for a long, long time. Is that the relationship you were hoping for?  What would keep you in a relationship with that ongoing dynamic?

[patientandclear]

Rosanna, you ask excellent questions ... .  

First, he has been in touch since leaving, by email.  He normally texts frequently too, though, and that has ceased since he left.  He does go through text silences from time to time, it's not unprecedented.  But it is a noticeable development.

The emails are reporting in for our normal back and forth.  Full of musing about how he doesn't know what he's going to do, where he's going to end up, he has no idea if he's coming back, though he sure is thinking about it, but he definitely isn't sure ... .  that sorta thing.

I would say I am not the pursuer to his distancer.  With a lot of coaching from folks here, I have refrained from that.  I have a rule about being 95% as involved as he is, and I stick to that pretty closely.  I rarely initiate contact.  He initiates probably 90% of the time.  When things are comfortable and good between us I relax that a bit as he has asked me to, but basically, I let him initiate.  He proposes to get together, he starts a round of texting.

I feel like I'm doing the only thing I can short of caring a whole lot less ... .  I am watching, experiencing what happens, drawing conclusions from what happens about what can happen, and trying not to grab for the feral cat or have any expectations about what he is going to do.  Yes, I am here to pet and feed him if he wants to be petted and fed.  I don't think there is any other way available with him.  If anyone sees other options, I am all ears.

If you are saying I should work on caring less ... .  I hear that.  It wouldn't make any difference to the outcome, after all.

But I think an important point is that I am not trying to coax him into a romantic r/s.  I don't think he can do that unless he gets some stuff figured out that doesn't appear to be happening.  Short of that, I just want to do what we do, where how he behaves doesn't break the rules, and my expectations are geared to what he actually has proven that he does (leaves/changes, everything, always).  I do have residual romantic love for him so that makes it harder, for sure, but that doesn't mean my goal is to regain a romantic r/s.  That would require that he be healed and I am not on a healing project.