Phrasing a boundary statement?

[XL]

Can any experienced members help me craft a blanket boundary statement using some of the tools?

Example: say my mom is on the phone and is becoming hysterical with a bizarre demand. Let's say she's suddenly demanding I never drive at night, and it has escalated to a crying tantrum.

Should I say something like "I understand you're upset but I don't let people scream at me, I'm hanging up?"

I've done this twice now, but I'm usually so mad it's just "You're treating me like crap, don't call back until you calm the f*** down." Which has historically lead to her calling back immediately and leaving a voice message that I am an awful daughter, and I can't ever hang up on her.

I want a good, solid, mature line I can rely on when this happens again.

[XL]

I've decided I'm not going to tolerate yelling, hissing or verbal abuse anymore. I have a right to be spoken to in a conversational tone in an appropriate indoor decibel range. 

[GreenMango]

It's sounds like its a two part thing.  

Living your value based boundaries and communicating more effectively.  It takes a little practice with both.  

So the value boundary is respectful communication... .  ?

Have you checked out the workshop on validation and SET to communicate this?

Maybe read them and do a practice round with the SET here with us?

S-

E-

T-

[Matt]

I think XL's "I'm not going to tolerate verbal abuse anymore." is perfect.

The key might be, being completely prepared to hang up after making that statement.  Otherwise you'll be saying one thing and doing the other.

The way it worked for me was, I never said these words.  I just taught myself to set the phone down when my wife went off on me.  Later I learned to just hang up, and if she called back, I didn't answer.

Very soon she realized that if she spoke to me inappropriately I would hang up and we wouldn't talk again that day.  She quit talking to me like that (mostly).

Maybe it will work the same for you - do it, don't say it.

[XL]

I don't quite understand the boards yet, sorry. Is this topic better for a workshop? (I can't find the SET one I was reading through last night now).

I don't want to validate her craziness. Like if she comes up with something totally off the wall like "You need to share your medical records with me" or "You can't drive at night" (I'm in my mid 30's, right?) I don't want to empathize or legitimize her intrusion. So maybe this is more of a straight boundary thing?

I HAVE hung up on her twice now. I just feel like I worded it in a hasty way that gave her more 'ammo', and gave her permission to call back.

"I understand you're distressed but I have a right to be spoken to in a conversational tone. I'm exiting this conversation." 

[GreenMango]

I don't think you want to validate the invalid... .  but not to invalidate it.  It isn't really about proving anything or getting into a tug of war with her-that could last forever.

Validate the worry for your safety-"I understand you are worried about me driving late at night".  "Concern about your child's health can be stressful."

For the crazy talk or abusive stuff.

S - It would be great if we could have calm conversations.

E - it can be hard to have these when either of us is upset or yelling.

T - once you've calmed down when can talk.  I'll check in with you tomorrow-whenever day ... .  

Then you don't pick up the phone during the extinction burst.  Check out that workshop.  You set the tone on this stuff.

All the workshops etc are in the learning center.

[GeekyGirl]

I don't want to validate her craziness. Like if she comes up with something totally off the wall like "You need to share your medical records with me" or "You can't drive at night" (I'm in my mid 30's, right?) I don't want to empathize or legitimize her intrusion. So maybe this is more of a straight boundary thing?

With SET, you're validating her feelings, not her actions. We all want to be seen, heard and understood, and the idea behind SET is that you're validating her feelings (without necessarily agreeing), but explaining your point of view or boundary (that's the Truth part).

A psych professor I had in college told my class, "Have you ever seen someone wearing a coat while it's 90 degrees out and thought that he was crazy? In his mind, it makes perfect sense; he thinks that he needs to warm up. To the rest of the world, wearing a coat in the middle of the summer makes no sense, but in his own mind, he's just cold." I've applied that theory to my mother's behavior: just because I don't see the same thing that she does doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense to her.

Is this the SET workshop you were looking at? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0

GreenMango has a good suggestion--perhaps if you try out SET here, you could practice giving the message to your mother. How could you make your mother feel understood and heard, but be clear that she's violating your boundaries?

[XL]

https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries

I stumbled on this board about boundaries. This speaks more to my concern. I'm pretty good about validating her emotions/fears if they're reasonable and calmly spoken. I need a "catch phrase" to use when they cross into loud, manic abuse.

I've decided that one of my boundaries that I'm done have yelling fights. Discussions and thoughts are fine, but I'm not get dragged into yelling anymore.

---

I actually realized this as a mild PTSD concern when my partner was yelling at me to look out for a red turn arrow I missed. I zone out entirely when people scream at me. I realized I don't stay mindfully engaged once volume reaches a certain point. It's not quite disassociating, but I'll start looking for dogs or birds or something.

[GreenMango]

That's the other workshop!

Hey listen like Matt said you have to have boundaries against abuse.

Its also good to recognize you "check out" a little when the yelling or volume kicks up.  To be effective in communicating with a difficult person, if you want to stay in the relationship, requires catching it early SET and boundaries, and disengaging quickly if its gone over to reactive abuse.

Does that seem reasonable? Two situations and two approaches.

[XL]

Yeah, thanks. So maybe there's two parts? Like I should try a request for calmness and SET, and then if the situation escalates, then I state my boundary and leave?

[XL]

Like maybe:

"Please lower your voice, I do not like loud conversations. I understand you're concerned about me, that must be worrying, but I'm not going to stop driving at night"

and THEN if she continues (likely with a louder, meaner "Well aren't you so smart and calm"

Then I'd be like, "I care about you, but I have a right to be spoken to in a conversational tone. I am hanging up now."


This is so hard.  

[GreenMango]

If I was just validating I don't know if I'd even justify what I was still going to do. Just saying " Please lower your voice, I do not like loud conversations. I understand you're concerned about me, that must be worrying" seems like enough.

If she keeps going you can say something like "i hear your concern.  I don't want to talk about this anymore.  Let's talk about something else."

If she gets abusive then politely exit with stating your expectations and that you'll talk later."

It takes a great deal of mindfulness and practice.  It may take sometime getting thru her extinction burst too.  But it takes a long time to get this dynamic cemented in so ta going to take sometime to change it.   It is hard. 


 In the meantime checking out the Questions about BPD and BPD behavior may give you some background on her behavior so when it happens you know what you are dealing with.  Knowing that can help to know what tools to employ.

[doubleAries]

XL, this is a workshop I found particularly useful BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

For me, all the talk about boundaries sounded just fine and dandy--except I didn't really understand what it meant, and so couldn't put it into practice. The part in the above link that filled in the missing piece for me was the paragraph about enforcing boundaries without values.

Now, here is how I would respond to the situation you outline above "it's OK for you to be angry. But it is not OK for you to become abusive toward me with your anger. When you are ready to resolve the problem instead of just express anger, I will be happy to listen. Call me back then." *click*

It may take some time. The first time you actually enforce a boundary (that has a value backing it up) it may just appear to your mother that you are engaging in some new form of JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain). But she will eventually come to adapt.

[doubleAries]

oops, just saw that you already linked to the same workshop--sorry 

[GreenMango]

oops, just saw that you already linked to the same workshop--sorry 

. We are just really thorough around here.

[XL]

No worries. .

Both times I've had to do this, she was waaay out of line. It wasn't just a disagreement, it was a fabricated disaster scenario she invented, ramping up into a solid hour of hysterical screaming and crying.

Both times I hung up on her, she immediately called back demanding I apologize and accusing me of disrespecting her, not listening to her feelings, verbally abusing HER, etc. So it's not only that I try to set boundaries, it's that I'm further degraded for it. It hate it.

Maybe "... .  and I'm not answering my phone for 3 days?" needs to be a part of it?

[XL]

You know what? Both times I did this I had normal family members scold me for "hanging up on mom". It's like I tug a little at this disorder and whole knot of related dysfunction slips.

I think I also need a boundary plan to deal with THAT too.

[GreenMango]

When you pick up after putting down a boundary it's like reinforcing bad behavior.  It rewards her calling.  You've gotta weather those flurry of blistering calls until it dies down to acceptable levels.  Then you can try to have that conversation again.  If it doesn't work the second time of trying you state what you expect and what you would like/boundary, then politely hang up again.  And weather it until it stops. 

This is tough stuff... .  but I'm guessing you've reinforced this for awhile (no judgement here... .  I did too) and it takes awhile to turn it around.

Check out the extinction burst workshop too. 

You know what? Both times I did this I had normal family members scold me for "hanging up on mom". It's like I tug a little at this disorder and whole knot of related dysfunction slips.

I think I also need a boundary plan to deal with THAT too.

Posted on: Today at 12:44:52 AM Posted by: XL

You are busy  .  I liked your analogy.

See in that you are being positioned in the Karpman Triangle/Conflict Dynamic.  Persecutor (you)/ Victim (mom) / rescuer (family)... .  We've got a workshop on that one too!  It's about being the middle moving away from any role.  Start a thread on that one on how to work out of the triangle. 

[Matt]

You know what? Both times I did this I had normal family members scold me for "hanging up on mom". It's like I tug a little at this disorder and whole knot of related dysfunction slips.

I think I also need a boundary plan to deal with THAT too.

"You hung up on mom!"

"I will hang up on anybody who talks to me inappropriately."

State your boundary, and then maintain it.

The bottom line is, if you aren't prepared to maintain your boundary, then you don't really have one, and the behavior will continue.

[doubleAries]

And try to remember that the boundary is for YOU, not her. It's your protection, not to manipulate her into acting the way you want her to. If she does start acting more appropriately, well then BONUS! But the boundaries are protective "fences" around your values, or minimum standards of treatment.

[Matt]

And try to remember that the boundary is for YOU, not her. It's your protection, not to manipulate her into acting the way you want her to. If she does start acting more appropriately, well then BONUS! But the boundaries are protective "fences" around your values, or minimum standards of treatment.

Yeah, and this comes out in how you say it (or do it):

"If you do X, I will do Y."

Not

":)on't do X!"

[Clearmind]

Great thread - I don't have anything specific to add in relation to your boundary statement however - having a BPD parent often we become accustomed to having our boundaries busted and we either go into fright or flight mode.

As GreenMango said - a boundary needs to be right in the moment. If you find yourself in either flight or fright mode and loose your train of thought a simple "I'm not OK with that" is one I tend to use a lot.

I have three standard boundary statements I can pull on if I am stuck. I have gone through periods where I say them over to myself often so they are in the forefront of my mind.

[mysoulishome]

All of these wonderful people have great advice. I would add that you should remember... .  you can search all you want for an appropriate way to say it but if your goal is to say it correctly so *she will understand* then you may be setting yourself up for failure. You can't make her understand. What you need is something *you* feel comfortable with... .  something you feel is fair. For you. Set up the boundaries and enforce them. Don't worry about whether or not she thinks you are reasonable. Especially when her main goal is to always be the most reasonable, the most right, etc.

[doubleAries]

mysoulishome is exactly right. If you verbalize a boundary and her reaction isn't what you'd hoped for, then you weren't setting the boundary for yourself.

Again, it's not for HER. It's for YOU. She isn't likely to "get it".

This eventually helps you understand the difference between you and her, that her problem is not your problem, and that it's OK for people to be different from each other--but to be able to shrug off what is not acceptable to you.

My mom is the boundary buster of all time. In an exceptionally cruel way. One of the things I "learned" from her (and am undoing and learning a more appropriate lesson) is that others must accomodate us. No. They don't.

If I say I can't be comfortable or happy unless everyone else acts the way I want them to, then how am I much different than her? I must learn to get what I need--not just demand it of others.