I don't think he has a conscience

[elemental]

Things have been quiet lately. I guess we have been getting along ok.

I think HE believes we have been.

I am having more doubts as time goes on. I don't know if he really has BPD. I think he has something, but I am not sure what it really is.

Basically, as long as I use the tools here, things are great. As long as I ignore internet woman- who is pretty absent actually, it's HIM that appears to be trying to keep something going- things are calm there, too.

It's very rare for him to make a complaint. He only complains if I complain.  He said to me today that he never hurt me. It was only that *I* felt/feel hurt.

I don't really have a rebuttal for that. Where do I even begin. Being cheated on hurts, being lied to hurts, the baby hurts, his actions about internet woman hurts.

But, he very cheerfully explained to me that he is not doing those things TO me, he just sort of DID them, so HE is not hurting me. I am just hurt. He says there is a difference in there.

I don't even know what to say. I can tell you guys how it feels, it's like all of the things that he did backlash emotionally to me, and I feel this big blockage in my chest because he has left me with nothing to say where I can tell him that I would like him to stop hurtful actions. I can't ask him to stop because he is not doing anything to hurt me. I am hurting as part of my... I don't even know.

He explained this to me, then when I started showing some doubt, he said he had a really big project at work, and he left abruptly, and presumably is working on this project.

I feel helpless. What is the point of me cleaning up my side of the street while he continues to inflict hurt and has come up with some way to explain to himself he should do anything he wants, even though he knows it hurts me because it wasn't directed AT me in order to hurt me.

Someone please help me come up with a concise response to this, because I am not understanding how to... or at least if this perspective of his is a valid one, explain it to me, because my dumb brain just can't understand it right now.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[laelle]

He is not holding himself responsible for the hurt he has caused you. I know that must really make you frustrated and sad. Even if it wasnt his intention to hurt you, he did.  You are right in your feelings to be hurt there.  No one can take that from you, or talk you out of feeling your own feelings.  Maybe his point is that he hurt you as collateral damage of him hurting himself.  Its no excuse but maybe I could see in his head why there is a difference.

The tools dont teach you to ignore other woman, that will have to come from your own personal boundary.  The tools do teach not be paranoid about them, but if I saw it... .  my boundary would be to end the relationship.  I am a one man woman, and I expect the same out of my partner.

I am very glad for you tho that things have settled down.  I really hope tho that you are not holding back your anger and hurt in order to hold that peace.  What are some effective ways in letting go of old hurt?

I hope all is well with you Ele, you've been through so much, and you deserve much happiness.

[waverider]

This is the old lack of empathy thing. In his mind he did not do it with intent to hurt. Hence you have no reason to be hurt in his mind, and you were simply misinterpreting his intentions.

In his mind it is not how it affected you but rather what his intentions were that is important

How to handle it? That comes down to what is the bottom line for you and draw a boundary around it. It stops or you will at the least stay away until such time as it is not a factor.

Demands or arguments about it will be seen as you being unreasonable.

If he is showing lack of empathy for the hurt caused there is no reason for him not to do it again.

[yeeter]

In his mind it is not how it affected you but rather what his intentions were that is important

This is my read as well.  And honestly, for myself, intent does matter (if someone intentionally causes me hurt - that is different than if it was an 'accident' or byproduct of some other action they took but didnt mean for it to affect me).

The problem in this case is, that even if he didnt 'intend' to hurt you - he was unable to make the connection at the time of his actions that they WOULD hurt you.  Which would be pretty obvious to a normal person, but for him he never even considered it.  This is the lack of empathy part - the inability to consider others and how they might be feeling or impacted.

How to handle it? That comes down to what is the bottom line for you and draw a boundary around it. It stops or you will at the least stay away until such time as it is not a factor.

+1 on this.  And consider the very real possibility that he may just never be able to develop any empathy, so it will repeat.  The best chance of him thinking it through next time is some type of consequence, that if he does follow through with xyz it will mean... .  ?  Otherwise he is likely to just keep repeating the pattern.

[elemental]

I think I have PTSD from this. Every time he does something that has to do with her, I have a panick attack. It's not simply I am sitting here fuming and mad. It's a physical one. My hands and body shake really badly and my heart starts pounding. I had to go on anti anxiety meds last summer to try and control it, and for the most part I am ok until he deliberately takes action to be around her. Then it starts. And sometimes I tell him how it effects me and I ask him to stop.

Zero compassion, zero empathy. Usually a few unkind comments are directed at me, and he says things like "big deal!" and threatens to get angry if I don't be quiet.

I politely told him it is a big deal to me, I find it hurtful, and that he already knows it is hurtful and at this point, it is actually the only thing he does that I feel strongly enough about to ask him to stop doing. I know he understands where I am coming from. He knows it is hurtful to me. And honestly I feel most people would be hurt by what he is doing, particularly when you consider what he has done so much of in the past.

I am close to throwing in the towel. I can't be in a realtionship where someone is knowingly doing something they know is hurting me and damaging our relationship. I would be more tolarant if he HAD to be doing something I didn't like, but this is a video game and this is some woman 1500 miles away who is married, already has one online boyfriend and who he KNOWS he hurt me over considerably in the last year.

[sm15000]

But, he very cheerfully explained to me that he is not doing those things TO me, he just sort of DID them, so HE is not hurting me. I am just hurt. He says there is a difference in there.

I really feel for you because this is exactly what I got.  There was no baby (as far as I know   ) but I had the infidelity and complete lack of understanding that it hurts.  The bottom line is, there is no empathy as incomprehensible as that seems. . .I couldn't get my head around "why can't he see he hurt me".

Perhaps, you will just have to acknowledge that yes, although he just did them, he is right you are hurt. . .and then what are your boundaries for dealing with your hurt?  If he is likely to just DO those things, can you accept that?

Personally, for me, that was the point I had to end it - broke my heart but I couldn't live my life with someone who went about things that way.  Do you/he still consider yourselves in a r/s or are you having a break?

It's hard, good luck   

[elemental]

We are in a relationship.

He sent me an email, long after I went quiet on him, that I am to say nothing and do nothing in terms of his relationships with other people ( his ex, his friends, internet woman) unless they attack me/cause harm to me.

My response is, their actions towards me are not the problem. My problem is specifically HIS actions.

No, I can't be in a relationship with someone who's damage to me has been so extreme, then tries to force me to endure endless aggrivation that prevents those wounds from healing.

He is refusing to acknowledge and act on the connection between my emotional condition and why I am not "getting over it". I can actually come to terms eventually and forgive the past, but I can't seem to do it while he continues tear the scab off of the wound.

He knows this. He doesn't lack understanding. I know him. He is just twisting it around so he can justify to himself doing what he knows he shouldn't be doing IF he wants a stable loving relationship with me. ( see Phoebe I GET it)

Simply, he is playing chicken with me and so far he is winning because I haven't really left yet and he thinks I won't.

It's not ok with me. I am willing to back off and disengage until he is willing to act on my behalf. If he isn't, then Elemental won't be talking to him very much anymore and Elemental won't be there smiling and giving out kisses and hugs and listening and supporting, and Elemental won't be there to spend the nights with and make plans for the future with.

The person who said maybe it is a case of disengaging until he changes the conditions is right. I have been putting off doing this because it hurts me a lot to do it. I am going to do it, though. Starting right now. And I am not going to even tell him or say a single word, or ask anything more, or demand, or anything else. I am just gone until he is willing to negotiate and follow through.

[sm15000]

The person who said maybe it is a case of disengaging until he changes the conditions is right. I have been putting off doing this because it hurts me a lot to do it. I am going to do it, though. Starting right now. And I am not going to even tell him or say a single word, or ask anything more, or demand, or anything else. I am just gone until he is willing to negotiate and follow through.

It's up to you but I would think about not telling him.  When you feel calm and feel certain of what you want to say. . .and can feel strong about not getting drawn into an argument, I would tell him exactly.

E.g. you accept that he is saying he didn't intend to hurt you, but you are hurt and that you are taking a break (with NC?) until he can x,y,z. . .keep it short and simple but be sure you can carry through, it's where the 'testing' may begin 

[lbjnltx]

I feel helpless. What is the point of me cleaning up my side of the street while he continues to inflict hurt and has come up with some way to explain to himself he should do anything he wants, even though he knows it hurts me because it wasn't directed AT me in order to hurt me.

The point is that this increases your self image and overall mental and emotional well being.

Someone please help me come up with a concise response to this, because I am not understanding how to... or at least if this perspective of his is a valid one, explain it to me, because my dumb brain just can't understand it right now.

We are not responsible for other people's feelings.  We are responsible for  how our words and choices affect other people.

lbjnltx

[Grey Kitty]

Someone please help me come up with a concise response to this, because I am not understanding how to... or at least if this perspective of his is a valid one, explain it to me, because my dumb brain just can't understand it right now.

Here is an analogy:

He is dropping a 30-pound rock on the ground. Your foot was under it when he landed.

His action. Your hurt. There is no way to get around that consequence.

If he couldn't see your foot was there, he wasn't trying to hurt you. That doesn't change that he DID hurt you.

A mental disorder could make him incapable of seeing your foot under there even though he was looking at you when he dropped the rock. This still doesn't change that he DID hurt you.

Now you are telling him: I see you have got a bunch more rocks. If you can't see that they are all hanging over my foot, I need to limp away before you drop them.

Perhaps this analogy will help you. OTOH, getting him to understand isn't always possible. You can simply say "Your actions did hurt me, even though that was not your intention." Twisted logic can be applied to back you into a corner. You don't need to out-logic him. Just listen to your heart, and if it says "no" believe it.

He is refusing to acknowledge and act on the connection between my emotional condition and why I am not "getting over it". I can actually come to terms eventually and forgive the past, but I can't seem to do it while he continues tear the scab off of the wound.

He knows this. He doesn't lack understanding. I know him. He is just twisting it around so he can justify to himself doing what he knows he shouldn't be doing IF he wants a stable loving relationship with me. ( see Phoebe I GET it)

Simply, he is playing chicken with me and so far he is winning because I haven't really left yet and he thinks I won't.

It's not ok with me. I am willing to back off and disengage until he is willing to act on my behalf. If he isn't, then Elemental won't be talking to him very much anymore and Elemental won't be there smiling and giving out kisses and hugs and listening and supporting, and Elemental won't be there to spend the nights with and make plans for the future with.

The person who said maybe it is a case of disengaging until he changes the conditions is right. I have been putting off doing this because it hurts me a lot to do it. I am going to do it, though. Starting right now. And I am not going to even tell him or say a single word, or ask anything more, or demand, or anything else. I am just gone until he is willing to negotiate and follow through.

Sounds like you have made up your mind... .  are realizing that putting up with this hurts more than leaving it.   I wish you peace and strength in your choices.

[waverider]

You are dealing with an obsessive or compulsive need on his part. Much the same as an addict wont give up drugs, or an alcohol wont give up drink. No words are going to be capable of changing his path.

It will take a rock bottom, buck stops moment to turn this around, if it is possible at all.

It is screwing you over, take whatever action it takes to stop you slowly crumbling on the inside. Rebuild yourself, take time do this properly. You will then have the objectivity and strength to clearly see and do what is obviously necessary for your own ongoing well fare.

Regain control of YOU. If he still wants you, and if you still want him then he will have to fit within your requirements.

He is not in a position to call the shots and control anything here, he stands to loose out badly if you pull the rug out. The alternative is not a reality, but someone 1500 miles away who is also living an imaginary relationship.

You do have power here, but you will need to stand back in order to see it. He is convincingly bluffing you into submission.

Put YOUR long term welfare first, take that internal turmoil and throw it away you dont need it.

[Tigerabbit]

Hi Elemental 

This sounds like a very tough and painful situation for you. I don't know that what I'm going to say is necessarily something you want to say to him since, as Grey Kitty said, you don't need to out-logic him, but this is my understanding. If one knows that something is hurtful to another and they do it anyway, even though they may not have done it with intent to hurt the other person, the didn't intend NOT to hurt the other person either, which is hurtful in itself. It's like negligence. Sure, a negligent parent isn't overtly abusing their child, but it is still a form of abuse... .  they KNOW that not feeding their child will cause them to be malnourished and cause all sorts of problems, and yet they might convince themselves that they were feeding their child plenty or that their child is just a difficult eater or make some other excuse to shirk responsibility. Piggy-backing on Grey Kitty's rock analogy, it's really like he is looking right at your foot, because you're showing it to him, but he is choosing not to see it, or he looking at it but is choosing not to acknowledge that it's black and purple because he dropped a rock on it (regardless of his intention). And there's denial. So first comes negligence regarding your feelings, and then comes denial that his actions are the cause of them being hurt.

Perhaps he has no conscience, but I think equally if not more likely is that the guilt he would feel if he allowed himself to accept responsibility would be too much for him to take (and possibly this is a mind-set that leads to people applicably having no conscience, but that's a discussion that's sort of going down a rabbit-hole).

I agree with waverider, that it's an obsession/compulsion/addiction, and he has to reach some sort of bottom and have an epiphany to realize the consequences of his actions. You realizing this and that it doesn't have anything to do with you or your worth and henceforth drawing a boundary and sticking to it may the "bottom" he needs, or the beginning to it. And if it's not, at least you are taking care of and being true to yourself.

I hope this helps in some way and that things start looking up for you.

[elemental]

He is like a chinese fingertrap. The more energy you put into trying to sort it fairly, the greater he resists until someone gets upset or something tears apart.

He came back and tried to make some joke to me to fix todays upset, but I don't feel like playing along since for me the issue is not resolved. I guess maybe I am about to become one of those people who are polite to him when they bother to talk to him, but otherwise avoid contact with him because he is hurtful to be involved with.

His obsession is a result of having allowed himself to be bullied, shamed and forced into doing things he didn't want to do in his relationship with his ex.  He told me last year how angry and humiliated he is over it. He also became very isolated and had few friends. The group internet woman is part of has a few members in our city and he has been out with them socially a few times. He told me that in order to not have contact with her, he would have to tell ALL of them to eff off. I don't agree. Avoiding someone and avoiding reaching out and interacting beyond politeness and courtesy is really not hard to do if you really feel like doing it. She is certainly doing that to him. I don't know why he doesn't just allow it to fade out, keep his current good friends, and let us heal from what happened. Except that I asked him to respect boundries and he is so resentful of it all, he is not seeing anything but how he is going to make me accept his actions.

The rock analogy is really helpful. He doesn't want to genuinely agree he is causing the hurt, even if his real urge is something else. He has known every step of the way I am being hurt. He just says it is my problem because I am an immature little girl who refuses to accept reality and his autonomy.


I pretty much give up at this point.  Tigerrabbit that is exactly what he is doing.  


Waverider, he scared me a lot. He tried to make clear today how much he cares about me, but I am not feeling it.

[yeeter]

I pretty much give up at this point.  

Hugs elemental.   

When I read this I asked myself - I wonder what context she means this in?  There are some things that it might be healthy to give up, like the mental model of what a relationship looks like and what you can expect out of it.  Traditional expectations arent going to happen.  Balance, and fairness arent going to be given willingly.

So a certain amount of giving up, and detaching, on preconceived ideas can be really valuable.  This in my mind is one step in the 'acceptance' or 'detaching with love' category.  That is, the ability to take a step back, clear your own emotional investments, and look at the situation in a less emotional/personal way and assess it for what it 'is' (not what I wished it were, or would like it to be - these likely arent realistic).

Pulling back and putting up your own defensive shields is a requirement.  After all, about the third time someone drops a rock on my foot I am going to move to the side so it doesnt happen any more!  Then I will make a determination of just how close I want to stand by that person again, and Im going to test that along the way.  No apologies for it, its basic human nature to protect yourself from hurt.

He came back and tried to make some joke to me to fix todays upset, but I don't feel like playing along since for me the issue is not resolved.

This might be worth asking - what does resolution look like?  And does this resolution in any way depend on HIS action?  Because if it does, then there is never any guarantee you will ever get it.  And even if you did get it on this issue, there will be a next and a next and its just not something you can rely on, since it depends on someone elses behavior.  So the challenge is, is there some path to resolution here that is completely within YOUR control? 

ie:  he dropped a rock on my foot.  Im going to stand farther away over there.  Issue resolved.

More hugs

[elemental]

Well the thing that has kind of kept me stuck on this is that I know he has become very defensive of his personal autonomy in the last year or so because of what he has gone through with his ex.

I can't remember who it was, but someone here had commented to me that she had a friend who was in a similar position: an ex who controlled her male friend through the children. And the ex had been so vile that this male friend eventually became so enraged he killed his ex and he was now in jail for homicide.

So I have tried to keep in context what he went through, becoming socially isolated, letting himself be controlled. I know he is furious about the baby, how it happpened, he blames his ex for suckering him in, he blames himself for the actions he took that led to the cheating, of re-involving himself with the ex, leaving me, allowing himself to be guilted and humiliated.

So he has a lot of anger and I realize he is being triggered. BUT. This is a long term action. He knows what he did to me. He KNOWS treating me "right" afterward was a given. I expected better treatment. I can SEE because he is so angry and twisted up, I got caught up in his mind or whatever, an innocent (mostly in terms of WHY he was messed up that way) party who he has been taking out his bad experience on.

I get it. At the same time, he really hurt me. He knows better than to think he can do those things and not have severe damage to me and our relationship. He is FINE as long as I am silent on it. But I can't be always silent. And his problem, while it effects me, is HIS to address.

I basically believe my valid needs for him to act on my behalf and take significant effort to repair our relationship is banging up against his own need to never ever let someone screw him around again like his ex did.

But he is punishing the wrong person. I am not out to control him, boss him around, scare away all his friends, or force him into isolation. I NEED him to stop some of these actions though and be more caring to me because he really did hurt me. Look at me, whenever I think he is doing something that *may* be cheating or whatever, I go into such a severe physical panic attack I can't even type without my hands jumping all over the keyboard ( for example).

Not to make a pity party. I genuinely feel for him and what happened. I understand, but making me pay for what happpened to him, on top of what he already did, is killing my spirit.

So yeh, I guess I should have agreed in one sentence. It's right to pull back from him, because trying to be close is putting me in some pretty serious pain.

[yeeter]

The other piece in this elemental, is your own recovery.

You have been misled and trust has been destroyed.

Even if he suddenly changed his behaviors, there would be a certain period of time and work for you to do to re-engage in the relationship.  I think to some degree its ultimately about forgiveness.  Forgiving him for what he did and how it affected you, and moving forward from there.

Im in no way saying that now is the time for this, Im just saying its a process for your own recovery, so some time on what YOU need for yourself might be useful no matter what direction things go in.

[elemental]

He and I talked a few weeks ago. His view is that we need to draw a line between the present and the past. HE doesn't want to talk about what happened. He wants to erase it and move on from it.

I am doubtful. I have a number of problems with it, the primary one being is he appears to believe that us doing this means he doesn't have to take steps to repair things. He believes he is entitled immediately to trust from me. I told him I didn't trust him and his instant response was "goodbye".

I said to him, how does that help? He just inflicts his anger and shame on me and tries to bully me into something I am not ready for. And all I hear from HIM for WHY he is not doing what I need... well I am the one who cannot be trusted, according to HIM, because I became so angry and distraught last year that I lashed out a number of times ( 5 or so during the year).

Also he is simply using this as a means to continue some of the actions he knows I find hurtful. I mean, if we are moved on from the past, then he has TRUST, and that means I shut up and remain silent and with him while he violates my boundries with internet woman.


I am avoiding him today because I am actually really upset right now.

[Grey Kitty]

 Sounds like you are stuck in a really tough spot. Sorry to hear that.

He and I talked a few weeks ago. His view is that we need to draw a line between the present and the past. HE doesn't want to talk about what happened. He wants to erase it and move on from it.

I am doubtful. I have a number of problems with it, the primary one being is he appears to believe that us doing this means he doesn't have to take steps to repair things. He believes he is entitled immediately to trust from me. I told him I didn't trust him and his instant response was "goodbye".

You don't need to trust him, although if you don't, your relationship will suffer from it.

You want to go over past stuff with him. He doesn't. I think you really want him to act like an adult and apologize for his behavior. He is disordered. Odds are that this is simply beyond him. If you want anything with him, you need to accept this and detach a bit.

Also he is simply using this as a means to continue some of the actions he knows I find hurtful. I mean, if we are moved on from the past, then he has TRUST, and that means I shut up and remain silent and with him while he violates my boundries with internet woman.

Moving on from the past doesn't mean giving him a clean slate to go back to what he was doing before. It just means that you aren't all wrapped up in your own hurt from his prior behavior. You may not be there yet. Accept that in yourself if you can't move on yet. Moving on like this only really applies if he stops. It sounds like he hasn't or doesn't want to, or you don't believe he will.

If you set proper boundaries, he is incapable of violating them. A good boundary is in the form of "If he does X, I will do Y." He cannot violate that sort of boundary.

It sounds like you need a boundary around him having internet relationships with women.

What are you willing and able to do in order to protect yourself in this case?

I am avoiding him today because I am actually really upset right now.

 Good move. If  you are that upset, you will only make things worse by interacting with him.

[elemental]

I ended up talking to him. He showed up, so I decided to try and talk.

He was provocative. I showed some upset after seeing he was over on some forum going on and on about some other girl in his playgroup. He excused that by saying it was a recruitment point. Like hey we have great girls so come over and play with us. To be fair it was a recruitement thread he started, but it was all in Russian and my Russian isn't the best in terms of nuance at times.

So then he accused me of not upholding my side by staying calm. Essentially I have been very calm last couple of months or so, but this behavior continues to be very triggering to me. I try to tell him that, but he doesn't care. He believes, as we discussed here, that since it is not intending to hurt me directly, I should not be hurt because it's not meant to hurt me. It just hurts me and that is not his fault, he says. It hurts though.  :'(

I asked him, is it really that hard to skip over doing these things when they are not needed and I find them hurtful and that makes OUR relationship worse?

He said YES it is too hard , now end your relationship with me!

Then he told me I am a big problem for him and to leave and BYE!

I will admit it was like a bullet to the heart. I have tried so hard to overcome my reactions and my pain and offer my hand to him and listen to what he says he needs and to act on his behalf. I extended acknowledgement to him of understanding his anxiety about losing his friends or ending up isolated.

He then told me I was crap to him and walked out.

After a bit he came back and looked pretty stony. I said please calm down, I am looking for a way through things and the extremes were making it difficult to negotiate. And he said, basically he is not at all upset, he sees no reason in pointless discussion. So its shut up or goodbye!

I know I must sound really pathetic, standing there in tears and panicked and feeling like I am garbage again that he throws away  and I said to him that I am willing to negotiate something that helps both of us, not just one, but other women are not going to get to be part of the picture and I can't work with him until he is willing to negotiate and other women are not being prioritized.

He said nothing, he walked out.

I feel utterly horrible now.

I can't wrap my brain around why, when I know he really wants me here and he KNOWS he caused so much damage... .  and I say here, let work something out that benefits US and doesnt hurt anyone, he goes off at me like that because he can see I am upset.

WHY? :'(

[connect]

Hi Elemental,

Sorry to hear that all this is going on for you. I know EXACTLY how you feel! I can never understand how with my guy I can be so completely in the right, set my boundaries (or try to) and end up being the one told to "go away and leave me alone"... .  unbelievable.

Mine is also about other womens friendships (you kindly replied to my post before) Mine has wound himself up into a similar state tonight too. He has cancelled us seeing each other tonight and most of our day arranged for tomorrow. The reason? Well the other female friend of his who he is meant to be going on holiday with (!) has given him a hard time today because he told her I would be accompanying them - yeah she really must be ONLY interested in him as a friend (yeah right) He cannot handle the conflict. I now know the signs to look for in him when he has had this sort of conflict and called him tonight to find him a bit drunk, ragey and dysregulated and therefore waited to hear the other womans name. Sure enough it came up. He started letting out his anger so I didnt respond in my usual way and just let it ride and said I would see him tomorrow after he has seen the female friend tomorrow. She will be furious with him and hopefully he will paint her black. (God listen to me... ) The alternative though is much worse - I cant handle another bout of it myself.

Can you get away tonight and see how he is tomorrow evening? Mine responds well to some time out - its like arguing with an angry sleepwalker otherwise. It's awful when you feel the way you do now - it seems like you cant get through it but you will. It wont feel so bad in the morning. Stay on this board and read read read x I got through my patch like this and am still with him x

[elemental]

connect, you made me laugh with how you are keeping your head down ( sad laugh) and hoping ( god listen to me!  ) that he focuses on his friend and paints her black instead. 

yes. mine does calm down with quiet and some solitude. we have had longer periods of time where we have peace and calm and the relationship begins to recover. Then we hit a snag because of my hurt from his cheating and baby and so on.

I know it hurts him to see me upset. I don't think it hurts him that I feel upset. I think it hurts him because he got his hopes up and we got better for a while and then suddenly I am ruining all of it by triggering off on his "friend" and getting upset and asking him to back off from her.

I am just so worn down from all of this and *I* am disappointed to be told by him that I was lying and faking it when I was being calmer and doing as best I can ( which was actually pretty much perfect till triggers hit me) and I am not really doing what HE wants me to do.

Then I kind of think to myself, wait a minute... I never cheated, a lie from me is very rare, I never got pregnant and had a baby outside the relationship. I don't have any male friends that I try to be very close to in a way that would make him fear cheating or violations of boundries. I have never stepped out on him. Its nearly 7 years now and even when we were apart for 6 weeks almost 2 years ago, I never got myself together well enough to date. It was only 6 weeks anyway.

I am having a really hard time keeping context of him as BPD with all of this because he tells me he totally understand and realizes he does need to be there for me and he then tells me he needs to think about it? Seriously? You know what the right and healing thing to do is, and you need to "ponder it"?

And today when he was mocking me and sneering at me... .  I just felt all of the fragile rebuilding shrivel up inside of me and break. He kept saying "I didn't do anything wrong".

Well, I don't think he did something "wrong" per se, it's just that considering what he already did not so long ago, his actions are not helping.

It's really painful to me that he openly says he knows and understands but he tells me minimizing contact with someone he hurt me badly over is "too much".

All I can say is ok, see you later until you decide differently. And it hurts a lot to have to enforce that.

[123Phoebe]

Hi Elemental

Sounds like now's a good time to show him just how much you're worth

It's like 'Hey dude, that's fine, do what you have to do.  I'll be doing this, that and the other over here.  Care to join me?  No?  Alright.  I know I've made myself clear about what my boundaries are, so... .  la la la off living my life to the fullest!'

It is so hard sitting with all that anxiety once we make a stand for ourselves and I mean a serious stand.  A deal breaker.  You know what though?  It is SO worth it.  It let's people know that we mean business, because we DO!  There's no going back to the nonsense ridiculi.  This is now how I'm going to live my life!  If you can't handle it, then hmm, so be it.

The anxiety releases its hold and it's like finally getting to exhale.  It feels good letting all that pent up blechy stuff go.

Give yourself permission to release him from your mind for an entire evening, make a batch of cookies or something (ha, that's what I'm doing tonight ).  Get really into whatever you're doing and enjoy your own company free of hurtful thoughts and energy     

[elemental]

Phoebe, I hear you. It's the triggers. I am sorry. I know you are trying to help me. I am so full of pain today.

I don't know if anyone ever did the things to you he has done to me. I am so devastated. I understand the staying board is about improving,not venting, so to anyone reading, I am really sorry. I must have hit a really bad pocket of grief today because I am all over the place and literally have been crying most of the day.

Weak yeh. I know what you mean about being strong. It's just what he has done has really shattered me and him being cruel to me now on top of it really hurts.

I will try to pull it together and move in the direction you advise.

[123Phoebe]

Elemental, no need to apologize, it sucks!  It hurts and it seems so senseless... .    If only... .  

And then it's like... .    If only he didn't have BPD.  If only he wasn't mentally ill... .  

He is though.  Emotionally well people don't treat the people that love them the way he does.

It is hard to fathom and comprehend, but there is no making a disordered person see the light because we would like them to.

I'm sorry, it hurts big time    

[morningagain]

Dear elemental,

You posted "I said to him that I am willing to negotiate something that helps both of us, not just one, but other women are not going to get to be part of the picture and I can't work with him until he is willing to negotiate and other women are not being prioritized. "

That is such a strong and beautiful statement.  That is establishing a boundary that is rooted in your very ethical, moral, reasonable values.  His response was, unfortunately, predictable.  However, that is his initial response.  I spent years twisted and mangled up on those initial responses.  I am still slowly getting the twists and knots out of me.  To be healthy, I need to stand tall, straight, dignified, strong, and gentle.  Regardless of her actions/reactions.

I finally took a strong, and gentle stand.  I will not discuss reconciliation with her while she is in a relationship with another man.  And even then, there is much work to be done by us individually and together to figure out if we should reconcile.  She dysreg'd.  Crying, yelling.  I (much to my stunned surprise) stood my ground, and with dignity, and kindness.  She hung up.  She called back an hour later.  And... .  apologized.  Later that night, I called and left a message, addressing one thing - that it really does hurt me she is in a relationship with someone else.  I said so deeply, passionately, without losing my dignity or composure.  I fully anticipated her being dysreg'd the next morning when she called.  She was... .  empathetic.  Well, these were things I had not experienced in years.  Later that day, she called to tell me she was setting up therapy for herself and leaving the guy she is with.

By the way, I am currently scared to death, because of all of this.  I am skeptical.  And God help me, hopeful.  And determined to continue to stand firmly on my values with dignity, compassion, and gentleness - even if/when she dysreg's, or finds someone else.

Today with my new therapist here is an interesting exchange:

Her - Why do you push down your gut?  Your instincts?  When you sense something wrong?  Why do you ignore or subvert those red flags?

Me - Because I want to have a healthy relationship with my wife

Her - Interesting.  :)id you hear yourself?  :)o you get that is contradictory?

Me - ... .  ugh.   yes  

So two things... .  1)  initial reactions don't mean a lot.  And in some cases are very predictable.  The unpredictable portion for me has been her changing after her initial reaction.

  2) Build a healthy relationship.  not an unhealthy one.  All you can do is your part.   All I can do is my part.  And wait and see if she does her part - and the best I can do for her is to acknowledge her issues and be patient waiting for her to regulate, or be reasonable, or be empathetic, or whatever.  I cannot force her - honestly, wish I could    but I cannot.

And it took a loong time and a lot of pain and study and work and thought for me to get this far.  It seems like she may have taken that first step in the 1000 mile journey.  I hope her and I meet along this path a few miles down the road.  

I hope I do not screw up and cave in thereby provokingdisaster.  For me and her... .  

elemental - you did great - i am sorry his reaction was so painful.  first reactions will be painful when you set boundaries.  stay strong.  caving in 'enables' and you will end up with less and less in the r/s.  and I am very impressed - i don't think i ever took such a strong & kind & good stand while living with my wife.

[cookiecrumbled]

I pretty much give up at this point.  

So a certain amount of giving up, and detaching, on preconceived ideas can be really valuable.  This in my mind is one step in the 'acceptance' or 'detaching with love' category.  That is, the ability to take a step back, clear your own emotional investments, and look at the situation in a less emotional/personal way and assess it for what it 'is' (not what I wished it were, or would like it to be - these likely arent realistic).

This might be worth asking - what does resolution look like?  And does this resolution in any way depend on HIS action?  Because if it does, then there is never any guarantee you will ever get it.  And even if you did get it on this issue, there will be a next and a next and its just not something you can rely on, since it depends on someone elses behavior.  So the challenge is, is there some path to resolution here that is completely within YOUR control? 

ie:  he dropped a rock on my foot.  Im going to stand farther away over there.  Issue resolved.[/quote]
Yeeter, ((thank you))

Cookie

[elemental]

He leverages me by scaring me/threatening me that he is leaving.

And Michael you are right, I have ended up with less and less in the relationship as a result.

I have FOO issues that are playing out here and I am aware of them. They are very powerful. It seems at times that people here have nudged me to explore those more openly and I thought about it... but my life at times has been so severely dramatic that when I think of all of it, I get overwhelmed.

For example, when I was 14, my brother, 2 years older than me, attempted suicide in front of me. He actually died for about 5 minutes, but was revived, lived. For me it was a very shocking event. Somehow I have ended up being one of those people that sort of thing happens to over and over. You hear and see others like me, and it's always like how does all of that happen to ONE person?

Anyway, your validation really touched me. I will confess though, that by the time I made that offer, I had already triggered, tried to talk to him, tried to emphatically tell him I need him to step up more. He had already dumped me, then demanded I dump him, he had already mocked me, I had already been called a liar and a failure and a deceiver for not staying calm, I had already said a couple of bad words... so in the end, I really tried to rally and make a livable offer for him to think on and he responded with "helps both of us? Is that funny?"

As in what I was asking, from his point of view, was totally just for ME because I asked him to minimize his interaction with the woman.

I am, sadly, finding some consolation in your statement about how you have spent years twisted and mangled up over initial responses. These responses to me have always been immensely painful and often shocking.

I cannot conceive of how much better you could have made your stand to your wife. I can't imagine anything better than a man being calm and strong, and gentle in expressing himself. It's really the loss of dignity and the pain of losing self and self respect.

I try to tell him that way, too. And get the silent treatment, or a cruel nasty comment. Or very often telling me how he doesn't want me and to leave. Then later he says "Honey, I was too harsh with you." as a sort of apology.

Too harsh?  :'( I am a woman who absolutely believed she was loved and I was cheated on and one day found out and suddenly thrown out like a formerly adored kitten into the street and so stunned I could not integrate what he had done. Then we are back and his ex/affair partner is pregnant and taunts and mocks me for months and I ask him for the truth... I get lies and he shames me for my lack of trust. I spent so much of this time believeing that it was all my fault. Then baby is born, that is concealed from me and suddenly one day, the child is there, he admits it, asks me to work through it and this woman in this video game is suddenly being prioritized and she gets so prioritized the pain and abandonment and gaslighting drives me nearly crazy until I find this site.

Anyway, this is what my brain plows through every time I hit one of those triggers. It hits me so badly that I am literally shaking so hard and it feels like SHOCK hits me all over.

I am really trying here. I have been mostly quiet and calm with him since late December, except I hit about 3-4 triggers during that time, all of them having to do with him interacting with that online girl in some way.

Part of the reason I am so troubled and keep talking about it here, is I feel crazy. I can't tell if he refuses to disengage mostly because I am triggering HIM or if he just has no remorse, or if he has feelings for her. I can't tell. His reply is she is harmless, there is nothing happening and I believe on her side that is totally true. But it's not her I am worried about.

Am I being weird here? Because of how he has treated me in relation to her am I asking too much for him to disengage? I mean I feel unsafe with him as a result of his actions and the feeling continues because he is walking all over me to keep doing it.

I can say what I said about negotiating but he has me really believing he would rather end the relationship than stop doing it.

I think he would.  :'( And I am deeply sad and angry about it. But at this point, I really feel that I am being mistreated and disrespected and my spirit is beginning to break from it. He had me convinced for soo long this was all my fault, what he did and why it is not improving.

I half believe it now, but a part of me is growing that is saying that feeling of guilt and pain at causing my own hurt is him successfully blaming me.

I am hurting, but I would rather be alone and in pain for now with hope to heal and have love and a good happy life, than to be so abused and devalued anymore.

I keep struggling with the feeling if only I were better ( because he says this is the reason I faring so badly with him) then it would all work out. And I feel desperate because he makes clear to me when I ask that I am not entitled to what I am asking for, ie, that he step up for me and stop interacting with her or minimize contact or really regain my trust so that IF the contact really IS harmless then I will believe it.  

[yeeter]

  2) Build a healthy relationship.  not an unhealthy one.  

Hang in there elemental.   .

[morningagain]

Dear elemental, oh darlin', your post is so heart-wrenching.  I deeply feel each hurt you expressed, and I think I have experienced similar in each case.

I did not have the strength to leave or to face losing her in any way until I didn't even recognize her, until I was lonelier than a soul could survive, until I could not tolerate her choices and had no control over my own house, until i was so betrayed I had nothing but pain, until I was financially devastated, until I no longer had contact with my children, until I was isolated from nearly everyone.  And even then, after I left that smoldering heap of a relationship and life, I so desperately wanted her, and tried and tried to establish some kind of basis for mutual healing and growth.  And I was nearly constantly dysregulated myself.  And the pain of the separation was 100 fold worse - but truth be told - that was all of the wounds I had been ignoring and shoving aside - it all comes home to roost some day.

Refusing to face my fear of losing her led to terrible destruction.  I placed (valued) my fear above my values and my innate knowledge of right and wrong.

It never gets better until we find some way to stand on and live by our own values.  I had to not only be ready to accept losing her, I had to actually lose her, before I truly started to face myself and rebuild myself.  I am happy to report I am back to a good 20% of my former self, PLUS I am about 1000% better in new ways.  I am not there yet, wherever there is, but my life is actually improving. How I longed for 'improving' during the 8 year spiral into oblivion... .   Will I ever be back with her?  I do not know.  Either way, it is, frankly, scary.  But I will have values and I will live by them.  Starting with: I value being strong and gentle and patient, and I value living by my values.

If I could have stood by my values, straight and true, kindly and gently, she may have left me.  However, I would also have strong relationships with my children.  I would also have financial security and financial freedom.  I would have healthy adult relationships with other people.  If she would have stayed?  The relationship would have had a chance to grow and heal and prosper, and in any event, our lives would not have been a 'smoldering heap'.

Over the last couple of years of my marriage, I do not believe I could have ever turned myself around - I was too far gone - lost in the maelstrom.  I had to get out of the storm - i knew that much - i told her that - i had to get my broken self off the battlefield and into intensive care in order to begin healing.

Still healing - yet a stronger and better man than I have ever been.

I think I am going into all this mostly because I feel you may be in a similar spot that I was.  You care deeply, you love deeply, and you are just so wounded.  But you also have strength that perhaps you never knew you had.  My gut feel is that you may need to use that strength right now to get off the battlefield and into a place of healing.

[elemental]

thank you