Looking for the right thing to say

[Parents! Get help here!]

Like so many kids here, my dd17 is extremely bright but low-functioning. She has recently given up on the therapeutic day school that she was placed in following an IEP in November, because she was bored by the work, hated her in-school therapist, and didn't see anyone among the students that she felt she could be friends with. While she started out her time at home doing projects (teaching herself sign language, taking an online course, etc.) she's spent the past few days essentially in bed. Last night she was in despair saying, "It's too late!"

On the one hand, I know what she means. It's too late for her to have had a normal high school career, and probably too late for her to go to college on the normal trajectory, unless something changes in a major way very very soon. She's a junior, nominally, and while she doesn't actually have that many credits left to do to scrape up a diploma, her transcript is not such as to make colleges clamor to have her. Plus, no matter what she thinks, she's not yet ready to be on her own and do college work.

On the other hand, I know that there are a lot of different ways to get from A to B, and a lot of potential "B"s from any point A.

So my question is, what do you say to a kid like this who thinks it's "too late" to give her some hope without invalidating her feelings? Anybody crack that one?

(Of course, what we all want to say is, "Get the hell out of bed and do something!"  Funny how that never, ever works... .  )

[inkling16]

Like so many kids here, my dd17 is extremely bright but low-functioning. She has recently given up on the therapeutic day school that she was placed in following an IEP in November, because she was bored by the work, hated her in-school therapist, and didn't see anyone among the students that she felt she could be friends with. While she started out her time at home doing projects (teaching herself sign language, taking an online course, etc.) she's spent the past few days essentially in bed. Last night she was in despair saying, "It's too late!"

On the one hand, I know what she means. It's too late for her to have had a normal high school career, and probably too late for her to go to college on the normal trajectory, unless something changes in a major way very very soon. She's a junior, nominally, and while she doesn't actually have that many credits left to do to scrape up a diploma, her transcript is not such as to make colleges clamor to have her. Plus, no matter what she thinks, she's not yet ready to be on her own and do college work.

On the other hand, I know that there are a lot of different ways to get from A to B, and a lot of potential "B"s from any point A.

So my question is, what do you say to a kid like this who thinks it's "too late" to give her some hope without invalidating her feelings? Anybody crack that one?

(Of course, what we all want to say is, "Get the hell out of bed and do something!"  Funny how that never, ever works... .  )

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

I am right with you on this one... .  my dd15 is heading in the same direction... .  

Have her try to get her diploma... .  get her credits... .  what can make a big difference is if she can score well on her SAT or ACT... .  having a good essay to go along with her application can also help her get into the school she wants but if she is unwilling to work for it now she won't work for it later... .  

Get her involved with community volunteering... .  humain society? animal shelter... .  get her busy!

I am hoping once my dd gets through high school and given the opportunity to study something that interest her she will do well... .  I hope!

Maybe college is not the route that is for her... .  maybe hair dresser or some other skill might be better... .  let her get out and work... .  get a job... .  that can do a lot of the self esteem... .  

that is my two cents... .  easier said than done... .  but try just one thing and see if that makes a difference... .  

[inkling16]

I am right with you on this one... .  my dd15 is heading in the same direction... .  

Have her try to get her diploma... .  get her credits... .  what can make a big difference is if she can score well on her SAT or ACT... .  having a good essay to go along with her application can also help her get into the school she wants but if she is unwilling to work for it now she won't work for it later... .  

Get her involved with community volunteering... .  humain society? animal shelter... .  get her busy!

I am hoping once my dd gets through high school and given the opportunity to study something that interest her she will do well... .  I hope!

Maybe college is not the route that is for her... .  maybe hair dresser or some other skill might be better... .  let her get out and work... .  get a job... .  that can do a lot of the self esteem... .  

that is my two cents... .  easier said than done... .  but try just one thing and see if that makes a difference... .  

All sound advice! If I could get her to do anything at all, we would not be in this position to begin with, and at one time or another we've at least considered all these things and more.

I should clarify--I wouldn't particularly care whether she goes to college if I thought she could build a good life for herself without it, but she really wants to go and thinks she can't. I know from other people's experiences that there is more than one way to get there. That's what I want to convey, without invalidating her feelings of anxiety and apprehension. I feel like if she understands that, she might be able to get up on her own.

I know that if she were up to doing the work, she would love college. She tests really well--got close to perfect on the verbal part of the ACT this fall, and would have done much better on science and math if she had remembered to bring a calculator. Sigh. Hanging out with less gifted kids and having to work at a remedial pace was one of the things that got her down about the therapeutic school.

[twojaybirds]

hmmm... .  first I would not assume you know what she means.  her "too late" could be about something entirely different. And it can change quickly as well

I would validate her feelings:

"You sound sad or  you sound like you have given up."

Tyring to fix it for her and givng her options can backfire on you, as I have learned.

If it is school related I would steer her to her school counselor or principal.  This is between her and the school and then perhaps follow up with:

" Let me know how I can help you when you are ready." It doesnt sound like she has asked for your help.

My dd went through the same thing and left home 3 months before graduation day... living on the streets she managed to figure out on-line schooling that her high school would accept and pulled it off at the last minute.

Then 2 weeks before college started (still with no place to live) she approached a univeristy... got her transcripts to them and was accepted with a huge scholarship.  We were all left awestruck with this as none of us every expected it.

You may also want to put a boundry around this behavior.  She is 17 so you cannot ask her to leave the house but put parameters around you. "I cook for people who are active particpants in the home.  You will have to  do XXXXX or you have to do all your own cooking and cleaning the kitchen after yourself.

Once she turns 18 you can go the " You have to be in therapy in order to live here route."  That is what I did.  SHe is not in therapy, but in college and we do ahve a relationship now... around my boundries.

[inkling16]

hmmm... .  first I would not assume you know what she means.  her "too late" could be about something entirely different. And it can change quickly as well

I would validate her feelings:

"You sound sad or  you sound like you have given up."

Tyring to fix it for her and givng her options can backfire on you, as I have learned.

If it is school related I would steer her to her school counselor or principal.  This is between her and the school and then perhaps follow up with:

" Let me know how I can help you when you are ready." It doesnt sound like she has asked for your help.

My dd went through the same thing and left home 3 months before graduation day... living on the streets she managed to figure out on-line schooling that her high school would accept and pulled it off at the last minute.

Then 2 weeks before college started (still with no place to live) she approached a univeristy... got her transcripts to them and was accepted with a huge scholarship.  We were all left awestruck with this as none of us every expected it.

You may also want to put a boundry around this behavior.  She is 17 so you cannot ask her to leave the house but put parameters around you. "I cook for people who are active particpants in the home.  You will have to  do XXXXX or you have to do all your own cooking and cleaning the kitchen after yourself.

Once she turns 18 you can go the " You have to be in therapy in order to live here route."  That is what I did.  SHe is not in therapy, but in college and we do ahve a relationship now... around my boundries.

Yes, this is what I need. Fortunately for her and for us, she is not fighting going to her individual therapist at the moment, and we are starting with a new family therapist tonight who is actually the same person who did our family therapy when she was in RTC over the summer. I think the continuity will help--our most recent family therapist wasn't tough enough on her or us and never did get a good feeling for exactly what our problems were, I don't think. Our new/old therapist has a more complete picture. But I am already thinking ahead to November when dd turns 18--she has made the same noises that all our kids seem to about "When I'm 18 I'm outta here." But then she gets all clingy and needy. Figuring out the boundaries is going to be tricky, and hopefully we can use family therapy for that, and for looking at ways for her to get out of the trough she's in.

I'm really glad that your daughter seems to be figuring it out, however slowly. I worry that ours will become impulsively suicidal--she's made two not particularly serious attempts already, but if she's feeling like there's no hope for her life, she might get more serious.

[pattyt]

I should clarify--I wouldn't particularly care whether she goes to college if I thought she could build a good life for herself without it, but she really wants to go and thinks she can't. I know from other people's experiences that there is more than one way to get there. That's what I want to convey, without invalidating her feelings of anxiety and apprehension. I feel like if she understands that, she might be able to get up on her own.

I know that if she were up to doing the work, she would love college. She tests really well--got close to perfect on the verbal part of the ACT this fall, and would have done much better on science and math if she had remembered to bring a calculator.

Speaking from experience... .  

I homeschooled my dd.  In my state all high school students in their junior and senior years are eligible to take dual credit courses at the local community colleges.  In my particular state, again, homeschools are considered to be unaccredited private schools and therefore these students are also eligible to take dual credit courses. 

Only difference is that in the high schools the teachers come to them to teach the college courses.  Since homeschoolers don't have a physical school building they go to the college and attend classes just as any other college student.  They are treated no differently and many colleges consider them to be full college students as they are earning credits. 

In our case my dd was accepted into the community college purely on her SAT scores because, although I made up a high school transcript, I never gave her grades, just noted that the course was completed satisfactorily.  What's more, because she was taking dual credit courses we were able to pay for the courses at a reduced rate.  Also, she was only allowed to take a few classes at a time rather than a full load and so she could ease into it.

There are no dorms at these colleges so your dd will live at home with you rather than be plunged into a different environment and all the upheaval that can entail.

Once your dd has a community college degree (and it costs much less than a four year college) she can then transfer her credits if she feels she is ready to pursue a more advanced degree.  Many students do this as a way to get a bachelor's degree for less money output, and many four year colleges partner with community colleges in order to ease the transition and encourage continued education.

Encourage your dd to check into the homeschooling rules for your state, and see if your local community colleges offer dual credit courses to high school juniors and seniors.  Tell your dd that 17 is just the right time to do this.

I would be very careful, though, how you put this to her.  If you push it as a wonderful opportunity she may run from it for just that reason.  Try to start a dialogue with your dd about what she feels she could expect from attending a college.  If she really feels this is something she wishes she could do then bring up that you have heard a bit about a possible way to do this.  Ask her if this is something she might want to check into.  Of course, all depends on whether this is offered in your area and/or your dd is motivated to follow through.

I wish you luck.

[inkling16]

I would be very careful, though, how you put this to her.  If you push it as a wonderful opportunity she may run from it for just that reason.  Try to start a dialogue with your dd about what she feels she could expect from attending a college.  If she really feels this is something she wishes she could do then bring up that you have heard a bit about a possible way to do this.  Ask her if this is something she might want to check into.  Of course, all depends on whether this is offered in your area and/or your dd is motivated to follow through.

This is just exactly it. She can be motivated for a few days, or even a couple of weeks, but she can't sustain it and then everything falls apart, leading to depression and that "it's too late" feeling. I think our cc does offer some dual credit courses, so I will look into this. I did it a couple of years ago but she was too young. Maybe now is the time. Once I know what's available, I can encourage her to look into it herself.

[vivekananda]

17 is such a difficult age for us as parents 

Yes, boundaries as 2Jbirds said - good idea. Revisit your boundaries. Perhaps showing respect means getting up and participating... .  ?

But the difficult one is validating them and allowing them to solve their problems - when they don't know or understand their choices.

So, I am thinking out aloud:

Your dd needs to accept her responsibility for where she is... .  avoid blame, that it is someone else's fault. If she accepts that this is the situation it is, without a sense of blame or fault, then she can move forward. If she is stuck in blame or fault, she goes round in circles. To prevent this negative thought happening, validate how it feels to be helpless, powerless, as if the boat has left. If you feel it is too late you feel anxious and alone. These feelings need validation. It helps us to listen better to them, it helps us understand them. The idea is that when we validate the feelings of another, we help them understand why they feel as they do and help them to move on to solving their own problems. How your dd really feels needs to be acknowledged and understood. If you do this them you communicate to her that you care for her feelings and that you are not rushing to tell her what to do.

Our needs are at the centre of our feelings. As parents we rush to provide solutions to problems. But our children need to learn the skills to solve their problems themselves. A solution to your daughters current dilemma may be to seek advice from someone (not a peer), it may be to find an alternative form of study, it might be to find work that will lead to a fulfilling career, it might just be to get any job and return to study later. Whatever the solution is (and there are many answers to this dilemma) it is best if it is her idea, not yours.

nevertheless, we can make requests. If we believe we have truly listened to our children and have validated them so we understand what they are feeling. Then we could consider asking something of them.

A request requires positive language, eg "I would like you to speak to ... .  ( a school career counsellor... .  ?) to seek advice on your choices. If you did that, then I would feel more comfortable that you have heard other advice"

These are some points about the difference between a request or a demand:

o   We someone hears a demand from us they see two options: rebel or submit

o   To tell if it’s a request or a demand, observe what the speaker does if the request is not complied with

o   If it’s a demand the speaker criticises or judges

o   If it’s a demand the speaker lays a guilt trip

o   It’s a request if the speaker then shows empathy towards the other person’s needs

Note with the request, it is for you to meet your emotional needs. Here with this request, you want to feel more comfortable. When we make a request, we are defining our objective: our objective is a relationship based on honesty and empathy.

I hope this is clear and doesn't lead to confusion. I think your dd is facing the hard position of facing up to bad choices. We want our children to accept responsibility for their thoughts, decisions and actions. This is an opportunity for your dd to learn to accept the decisions she has made and an opportunity to help her make better decisions. As parents we need to stop ourselves from trying to solve the problems and allow our kids to learn how to do it themselves.

I have been 'thinking' out aloud here and don't mean to be prescriptive and don't want to tell you what to do, but to give you my perspective on a really difficult situation that you face.

cheers,

Vivek    

[inkling16]

Thanks Vivek ! This is extremely helpful in giving me a way to think about it. She is stuck in guilt (and I think in shame) since she has for the most part quit blaming others for her plight. (I say for the most part because she still spends a lot of time expecting us to pull the perfect solution out of our hat, even though we keep making it clear that we can't, since there isn't one, and we won't keep trying to devise solutions without her.) But you're right, I have to reorient my input as requests for my own comfort rather than any expression of trying to solve things.

She's now in the place where I've seen her headed since middle school, where her peers have matured to the point of planning for college and leaving home. They have done all the hard work of attending school, doing their homework, learning to take care of themselves, etc., and are now reaping the benefits that she envies. And there's nothing I can do to hurry her along or help her catch up, except validate my brains out while she works through it herself. The other day she was rereading "The Fault in Our Stars," a YA book by John Green about a girl with terminal cancer, and she said she felt like a sick person, except that no one could see her sickness so they thought she was just slacking. And she cried in shame and frustration. All I could do was agree. I have developed a fellow-feeling for the mother of the book's heroine, even though our daughters' prognoses aren't the same. A lot of the frustration at fate and attempts at radical acceptance are exactly the same.  (It's a wonderful book, by the way.)

[lbjnltx]

Dear inkling,

You have received much good info and support from the members here!

It has been my experience w/my d when she is suffering the consequences of past choices and stuck in the feelings of hopelessness that after validation the real "problem" still exists.  Asking those validating questions certainly can work towards her finding solutions.  Sometimes our kids (and us) need to be reminded that the only way forward is to move out of the past.

This question to my d has worked many times to help her move into problem solving mode and out of her feelings of hopelessness:

"Which is more important, what you did in the past or what you will do today and tomorrow? We cannot change the past, we can make different choices for a different outcome for ourselves now and in the future."

Perhaps it will help your d too.

lbj