Any insight on a waif?

[redberry]

From what I am reading, it looks like my male friend is a uBPD waif.  Can anyone who has a waif talk about that some?  I've read a number of things online, but I'm curious as to what their "personalities" are like.

For instance, my friend doesn't rage (at least not that I've seen).  He is extremely quiet and doesn't really make friends easily because he doesn't talk.  People say they find him boring and uninteresting and his quiet makes them feel awkward.  He has a flattened affect, his face doesn't really tell you how he's feeling and to me it always looks sad, anxious, or pensive.  Kind of like a child who is worried or lost with sad eyes.  But he never will say that anything is wrong.

Any of this sound familiar?

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[briefcase]

Hi redberry,

The term "waif" comes from Christine Ann Lawson's book, Understanding the Borderline Mother.  The waif generally presents as helpless and seems to always need rescued.  Lawson's "types" are not fixed, and people with BPD can be a waif one day and witch the next.  Generally, we don't get too caught up in these labels here. 

In general, we keep the focus on ourselves and use the tools no matter how the disorder presents in our partner/friend.  So, whichever type your friend happens to fall into on any given day - your course of action in pretty much the same.  Validate emotions, enforce boundaries, control your own reactions, etc.

Hope this helps. 

[wanttoknowmore]

The book 'understanding the borderline mother" by Christine lawson is a great book. I just finished reading it. It gives a clear understanding of subtypes of Borderline mothers with great examples.

[redberry]

Thank you guys so much for the book recommendation.  I am about to purchase it now!

[yeeter]

Before you spend a lot of time researching BPD types - What is it about this person that you think he may be Borderline?

From the limited description, there is nothing to suggest BPD... .  

?

[redberry]

I appreciate the reply, Yeeter.  I described things more fully in my introductory post.  This better explains why I suspect BPD... .  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=197130.0

[yeeter]

Thanks rap.  One of the usual books we recommend is 'Stop Walking n Eggshells'. But this is more for people that are in a relationship and lost in the FOG.

Its still not completely obvious to me at least, what tyoe of relationship you have with your friend.  It sounds like you are mostly an observer to his behaviors, and they are not causing you grief per se.

Generally speaking a particular label isn't worth much.  What is worth something, is understanding a dynamic so you can have a healthier interaction.  No matter what the label might be.

That's what don't see in your post.  What areas of the interactions are you struggling with?  (he dates other people... .  One year relationships aren't all that short... He is quiet and withdrawn.   Again, it's not obvious why this is a problem?)

[redberry]

Thanks, Yeeter.  I'm just here trying to understand the disorder.  I strongly suspect that my friend has it and I am puzzled by his behavior often, as are others around me.  And I'm trying to understand why he lies and does the things he does.  I'm curious.

You're right, most of his behavior doesn't cause me grief directly except that every girlfriend he has had has tried to talk to me to better understand him when things get rocky--which they always do.  More times than I am comfortable with, I will know a truth and the girl he is dating knows a lie (usually the lie being that he didn't cheat on her when he did).  That makes me uncomfortable.  I don't like cheating or feeling like I'm hiding something that I know.

As for our relationship, as I kind of mentioned in the introduction... .    He has done some things that have been very close to sexual interactions with me, only I pulled back.  I have never thought of myself as gay or bi, but to be painfully honest, this friendship has me questioning that.  It is one of the first things I want to talk about with my therapist.  Because of that, I suppose that this friendship feels more intense than any other friendship that I have ever experienced.  It's like he knew what buttons to push and it kind of turned things upside for me.

I'm not jealous of his girlfriend, I like her and I personally want them to work out.  If I'm honest with myself, I think I am jealous of the way that he sleeps around with abandon and can pick up girls so easily.  This is getting into therapy territory, but he has traits that I never felt that I had and I believe it makes me feel worthy that someone like that wants to spend time with me.  As immature as this sounds, it's like I'm the nerd in high school and I'm kind of riding high because the quarterback wants me to hang out with him and his football friends.

I know that's a lot for here and is probably way beyond the scope of this board, but I feel like its worth being as honest as possible.  What I struggle with is knowing this connection probably isn't a healthy one and trying to decide if its something that I can continue to manage or if I should try to break it off.  For now I'm trying to manage it and learn more... .  About him... .  and about me. 

I will certainly take a look at that book, too.

[cal644]

My stbexw was the waif type - never let out any emotion.  Always kept to herself and took a long long time to make friends.  Hated social events. Always a people pleaser. Hated sex and saw it as her wifely duty.  I thought she would never leave or have an affair because of that.  But for her she got addicted to texting - safe, no one on one contact.  She gave up her whole life and family for a texting relationship.

[yeeter]

If I'm honest with myself, I think I am jealous of the way that he sleeps around with abandon and can pick up girls so easily.  This is getting into therapy territory, but he has traits that I never felt that I had and I believe it makes me feel worthy that someone like that wants to spend time with me.  As immature as this sounds, it's like I'm the nerd in high school and I'm kind of riding high because the quarterback wants me to hang out with him and his football friends.

I know that's a lot for here and is probably way beyond the scope of this board, but I feel like its worth being as honest as possible.  What I struggle with is knowing this connection probably isn't a healthy one and trying to decide if its something that I can continue to manage or if I should try to break it off. 

Hi rap,

First off, these thoughts are not at all beyond the scope of this board.  Its our own issues that allow us to get sucked into an unhealthy relationship.  The great thing is that you arent in too deep yet, and you see some of the negative and unhealthy dynamics, and are trying to learn and understanding what at the root of it all.   

As you read the posts here you will see that we emphasize working on ourselves and our own behavior.  So understanding your own wants/needs/motivations is critical to this.  And I think you will see that a lot of people allow themselves to go forward with an unhealthy relationship because of these insecurities (like the opportunity to spend time with the popular person - chances are he doesnt hold the relationship in the same regard as you).

Your honesty with yourself bodes well that you will make progress (self denial doesnt allow it).   So dont be afraid to face your own feelings - it can be intimidating at first but I think you will find the group here very understanding and supportive.

If you did enter into a relationship with him, what do you imagine it would be like?  (what would be your expectations?  How would you expect it to play out?)

[redberry]

Cal, this sounds so familiar.  The not showing emotion makes it very hard at times to maintain a friendship with my friend--I really don't know how somebody would do it in a relationship.  I guess they have to have contact, though, to feed the disorder so texting provides that contact in a safe zone.

Yeeter, thank you for the kind words.  I appreciate that more than you know.  It has been very hard to face these feelings that I have and to be honest with myself and with others.  This friendship brought out some feelings that I have never dealt with.  I'm seeing now that this dance takes two and I was selected for a reason.  I have some issues to work through as well.

To answer your question... .  I never really planned for an intimate relationship with him. And even the thought of that right now seems pretty foreign since I have never had that kind of connection with another man.  I'll admit when he was taking up all of my time, it felt good... .  Really good.  Like the best friend I never had and a major boost to my self esteem.  I sort of became addicted to that feeling of being sought after and finding someone who shared so many of my interests (later realized that was mirroring) and not really having to work at it.  When that sort of waned, I started to feel pretty down.  I think I was relying on someone else for my self esteem boost and became incredibly codependent and enmeshed.  Also things that I want to discuss in therapy.  It feels strange to say this, but I suppose if I had my way based on how I was feeling when we spent a lot of time together, I would have said that I wish we could live the rest of our lives in the same city, single, and spend time with each other doing activities that we both enjoy doing.

Soul searching as best I can.  I'm glad you all are out there!

[Grey Kitty]

To answer your question... .  I never really planned for an intimate relationship with him. And even the thought of that right now seems pretty foreign since I have never had that kind of connection with another man.  I'll admit when he was taking up all of my time, it felt good... .  Really good.  Like the best friend I never had and a major boost to my self esteem.  I sort of became addicted to that feeling of being sought after and finding someone who shared so many of my interests (later realized that was mirroring) and not really having to work at it.  When that sort of waned, I started to feel pretty down.  I think I was relying on someone else for my self esteem boost and became incredibly codependent and enmeshed.  Also things that I want to discuss in therapy.  It feels strange to say this, but I suppose if I had my way based on how I was feeling when we spent a lot of time together, I would have said that I wish we could live the rest of our lives in the same city, single, and spend time with each other doing activities that we both enjoy doing.

That sounds like quite an experience for you. Have you read this article?

How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves

Does it feel like this description corresponds to what you experienced? (With different gender roles, of course) And if so, did it feel like you stopped part way through that sequence?

[mikewbpdwife]

Base on my experiences with my wife. I can relate to the Waif behaviour.  They constantly need to fufill their own needs and crave emotional support but won't help you out with your emotional needs. Its like a roller coaster of highs and lows when they get what they want and leave you in a ditch. Imagine she messages me 30 sms a day and calls almost all my friends to find out where i am when i went NC.

Basically I gave in to her needs while sacrficing mine, friends discourages this but i'm blinded by my love. They know how to twist your mind and paint themselves as the damsel in distress while you are the knight in shining armor. That is because their mind are splitting you 'white'. I knew something was wrong because she will immediately paint someone 'black' or 'white' in the first few instances they met. My friends whom she's not friendly with will find her awkward while she's 'very chatty' with seeming strangers but whom offered her a seat? I hope everyone learns from my lessons and pray for everyone to faster recover from this episode.

Im still staying for the sake of my vows. Damn it.

[yeeter]

rap,

I gave a little more thought to your situation, where you were wondering the attraction to another man given you didnt consider yourself gay.  A couple thoughts for consideration (and definitely worth talking through with your T). 

It would seem to me, that if you were gay then you would be more attracted to members of the same sex as a generality, and not just one specific individual.  And it does still sounds like you are attracted to the opposite sex, so there is something there.

So this means there is something about this one individual that is appealing to you.  And from reading it, it sounds like things like being the cool guy, popular, easy to get girls, skating by in life, and him showing interest in you - are all ways of reflecting back on your own self esteem (because if this guy is showing interest then that builds your own self esteem/ego).

The problem with this is that its not reciprocal, in that no doubt the way he views the relationship potential is very different than what you might view it.  He isnt going to change his ways.  So you would be having a relationship with someone who was still lying, sleeping around, not valuing it in the same way as you do.  In fact, its conceptually possible just dragging you into it would be some type of conquest for him (a destructive conquest, but he likely doesnt care).

So the real work is about getting that same sense of self worth, and self esteem, in some other more healthy and more sustainable way.  You dont need external validation - especially based on false pretense - to feel good about yourself.  I can tell already you are a considerate individual and came here to learn and are asking for insights.  Great job!

So many of us have gotten into the relationship with a BPD because we have this hole to fill in ourselves.  BPD's are MASTERS at seeing these and exploiting it for their own emotional gain.  We pour all our energy into the black hole hoping to get something back, and its never enough, and nothing every comes back our way.  Im just saying, be very very cautious about moving forward with a relationship until you understand clearly what it is about it that is compelling for you, and the realities of what the potential truly is.  (not some fairy tale version).

[redberry]

Yeeter, you hit the nail on the head.  Are you a therapist, by chance?  Because you should be!  . I actually used your post yesterday as a starting point in therapy.  I wouldn't say that I'm generally attracted to the same sex, that's why this friendship threw me for such a loop.  Yes, it is certainly a reflection on my self esteem. I recognize that now and my therapist backs it up too.  Women do find my friend extremely attractive and that's not something that I really felt I had.  With my friend, it's sort of a double edge sword.  I have been relying on him for my self esteem almost entirely for shallow, immature reasons (looks, ability to attract women, etc).  I take those perceived traits and greatly exaggerate them in my mind to a level of highest importance and glamorize them.  Ignoring a boatload of other problems that my friend has that I do not have.  I am financially stable, educated, able to make and keep friendships, achieve goals.  I don't binge eat, make risky decisions, gamble, binge exercise, make bad sexual decisions, don't squander money, can pay for my housing and generally a lifestyle is comfortable.  Though we both work at the same place, he makes significantly less money than I do because he doesn't have the skills and education to make more money.  I'm not bragging, just reminding myself of the things that I regularly overlook when I elevate shallow traits to such a high level to come to the faulty conclusion that is life is great and mine is severely lacking.  My low self esteem obscures this fact, but it's exactly the other way around.

You're right, it's not reciprocal.  At one point, he was heavily mirroring me, trying to do everything that I was doing.  That was the height of feeling good about myself, but I recognized later that I was relying on someone else's disordered validation for my own self esteem.  Not good.  That's where we are going next in therapy.  As you said, he doesn't see it the same way I do.  I'm a host for him when he needs it and it feels much like being used and tossed aside.

As you mentioned, it's interesting that so many of us come here to figure out someone else and soon realize that we have to turn the mirror around and look at ourselves.  I'm working on the.

Yeeter, I'm glad you and the other kind folks on this board are out there.  I know this is a process and we'll get through this together. 

[shatra]

Hi

pwBP often project their own feelings onto us, and we "feel" their projected feeling, in "projective identification". SO I wonder if your friend might have some level of attraction to you---he may find this awkward, not acknowledge it out loud, and it gets "pojected" out. This is not the first time that a pwBP projects their sexual feelings, and the other person absorbs it, not understanding that it is actually the pwBP's projection... .  

   Another idea I had is that he may be a "hermit" type (isolates, doesn't express emotion) in addition to  a waif---both are described inn Lawson's book.

Shatra

[jj2121]

My stbexw was the waif type - never let out any emotion.  Always kept to herself and took a long long time to make friends.  Hated social events. Always a people pleaser. Hated sex and saw it as her wifely duty.  I thought she would never leave or have an affair because of that.  But for her she got addicted to texting - safe, no one on one contact.  She gave up her whole life and family for a texting relationship.

My ex seem to act different in person, then when I was not there, all these crazy emotions came out through her text messages.