picking holes

[pixiepie]

I had a conversation with the pwBPD this evening and it ended badly. All of our conversations end badly at the moment, and I can never tell why or when that will happen because he seems to pick out something at random, recoil in offense, get angry and then exit.

we had a conversation about god and science and he said he had an open heart and mind. this lead me to ask him with genuine care if he now felt love because much of our dialogue has been around his inability to do so. I was asking him as his own reflection on his own growth (hes now a christian) to see if he felt differently now.

instead he called me a dick, told me I was offensive and that I don't know how to express myself. Historically I reminded him we had a conversation where I said he loved his mother and he replied 'but do I?' and when I brought this up he got furious, abusive and abruptly stopped talking.

is he doing this on purpose? He left the conversation before I could respond and I don't know what to do. It is not helping me in my decision to stay or leave.

what do I do now? nothing? what do I say?

[real lady]

Hi pixiepie; your title really brought out my curiosity and even more after reading your post in the "undecided" section.

What do you feel "undecided" about? The more that we ASK OURSELVES and trust ourselves to answer these hard questions whole heartedly and logically, the more grounded we will feel and the less confused by other's reactions such as your pwBPD.

I really understand your confusion, pain and ANGST over having conversations like this. I don't call these conversations but DYSREGULATIONS. I feel that I am "not part" of the conversation that they are having "in their head" but their projection makes me the villian, blame and "problem" of anything that they feel is NOT RIGHT with their world.

It sounds like you are in the baby stages of realizing WHAT and WHOM you are trying to have relationship with... .

READ as much as you can about BPD and how he behaves and what it means and BE PATIENT with yourself and TAKE good care of yourself inspite of his "conversations" to not allow you to express yourself.

I have learned that "they do not want to hear" ANYTHING that even remotely MAY contradict their "reality". What sort of conversation do you think they are capable of having with an healthy person who is NOT mentally ill? A BPD sort of conversation is the answer. He will not allow you to express your feelings because HE is dealing with his own dysregulation... . it is a VERY WICKED ILLNESS... .

Have you read about RADICAL ACCEPTANCE? The sooner we ACCEPT THEM FOR AS THEY ARE instead of how we expect them or want them to be, the MORE CLARITY we will have to see this relationship for what it is.

I am not married to my pwBPD. At this point, I will NOT marry him. If I could leave RIGHT NOW, I would be packing and out the door. Seriously. Marriage would NOT make BPD any better... . and further "conversations" only allow them to "turn us black" and keep us there as their excuse from accepting their own behavior.

Good luck with this... . seriously, asking WHAT you are undecided about, writing it down and LOOKING at it, I suspect that it will HELP CLARIFY your situation... . wishing you the best.

[pixiepie]

@real lady thanks so much, this was very helpful to me.

I would like to know how to deal with these patterns, and know how to communicate better at least while I weigh up my situation.

... .

I notice that after periods of exposure to his mother (she has just been to visit) his moods are all over the place. I am not allowed to meet her and so while she is there he is avoidant and offhand, we normally converse for an hour or 2 every night except when shes in town.  After she leaves he is a mixture of warmer, and more awful when she's there, he can seem depressed, moody and abit yo-yo.

is this all part of it?

[Surnia]

pixiepie

I think I can relate somehow with your description of your communication.

Asking him questions was a huge trigger for my exH. Sort of I asked: Are you going to the grocery shop today? He heard: Why didn't you go to the grocery shop today?

The topic "love" was a trigger too.  

Sometimes I had success with validation. Are you familar with this article? Arguing - don't engage.

It is not helping me in my decision to stay or leave.

For me it was something to think about. What kind of communication do I want in a relationship? Is it healthy when I only feel safe saying nothing?

The tools helped me, bc I tried it out. I could say I did my best.

[real lady]

@real lady thanks so much, this was very helpful to me.

You're welcome. I know that I had to ask myself these questions as I was not yet on this wonderful site to have someone challenge me to think about my situation.

I would like to know how to deal with these patterns, and know how to communicate better at least while I weigh up my situation.

You may find out that it is NOT about you at times. You could communicate perfectly and SOMETHING would "set him off". That is what mental and emotional illness is all about... . how a person thinks and feels about themselves FIRST and then they project all the negative and hurtful things that they think and do onto others (projection). It is a "H if we do, H if we don't" sort of thing for most of us "nons". We can't help them unless THEY are willing to help themselves... . and most aren't.

After she leaves he is a mixture of warmer, and more awful when she's there, he can seem depressed, moody and abit yo-yo.is this all part of it?

It sounds like you may have some triangulation (read definition) and YOU are being the one that is "put out of the circle"... . read the articles on this site about the dynamics of relationships for BPDers. They are NOT the same and it sounds to me, and I don't have this situation, per se, but that there is MUCH past abuse that may be hidden from you. He may feel GREAT shame and indiginity over how his mother, could she be PD?, abused him. I think that your dynamics is NOT generally that of a "normal BPD" person and family... . I suspect abuse and that is not uncommon with mental illness.

[pixiepie]

real lady - my pwBPD is the youngest by nearly 14 years in his family with several older sibs. He grew up with active alcoholism in the home and domestic violence. Its his observation that he had no relationship really with his mother as a child, it 'sounds' like when she had him at age 40 shes basically handed him to her 52 year old husband and said 'here, you do it' and she went to work. He talks about not being close to her, not even really liking her until he was an adult. The father has died in his arms at home when he was 12 and this has led to PTSD. Homelife became very unstable as the mother then drank away her sorrows and he was shifted amongst his drinking siblings because she couldn't cope and was emotionally unavailable.  I know that there is active alcoholism in 2 of his sibs, one of those probably has NPD. There is a sober brother who I think NPD and has a history of bullying in his profession.

Do I think the mother has a PD? absolutely. You don't have 6 children, 4 of which appear to have PD related dysfunctions and a history of alcohol abuse, and their mother and father were also active drinkers. She is an old lady now, and he has fallen out with his siblings, counting his mother as his only family. When I look in on it, even though she is not geographically close it feels as if she has a strong grip on him, only he doesn't seem to see it. Her opinion on things is very important to him, especially surrounding women and the women he dates, he gets her to vett them all including me.

For whatever reasons though, and I suspect its the way I communicate (quite openly) he has held me at bay and at one point launched a smear campaign behind my back to control my presence in his life, only now seems completely unwilling to set the balance correctly in the deliberate misinformation he has disseminated. He tells me he has said things good about me since but I actually don't beleive him and feel he is managing me.

She was here at Xmas for 14 days, and he was quite off after that, and shes been here for a week just gone. Im not allowed to come over, or to talk to him when shes around because he says its upsetting for her, in brief last year he confided a great many things in me (now Im understanding what dysregulation is I think was in a HUGE period of this at the time) as well as being moody, depressed, vengeful, emoionally absent, cheating, verbally and emotionally abusive. I was so in love with him I couldn't understand what was happening, I confided in someone, the someone abused my trust and divulged all to his brother with additional made up things I never said. There was a huge family eruption, my pwBPD tried to kill himself, the family fractured, I got blamed for everything. It left me feeling suicidal and depressed because I had only wanted to understand how to better help him, and ended up essentially being framed by my confidante and the pwBPD's brother, who made up a story I had been salaciously gossiping in a public forum about all the family secrets. This was apparently to shut me down and manage me, they must have felt embarrassed someone knew about all their dark family secrets and set about trying to kill their brothers friendship with me.

My pwBPD now acknowldeges this is the case, and says hes forgiven me, but continues to keep me hidden, and won't allow me to participate in his life in many areas ie: meeting his friends, going to his church, meeting his mother. He says I have to do 12 step work and has pretty much told me I have to make an amends to his mother and 'work on myself and my issues' before 'doors will open'... . It feels very controlling, calculated and I feel he hopes I will fail as its always about me and my lack so long as Im not doing the tasks he says I should to get the rewards of being in his life more openly.

Does this make sense? I'll leave it there for the minute.

@Surnia I am definitely having trouble with pitching questions, which I do a lot because if I don't ask him anything he says nothing and I have no idea whats happening. I feel helpless.

[DragoN]

as well as being moody, depressed, vengeful, emoionally absent, cheating, verbally and emotionally abusive. I was so in love with him I couldn't understand what was happening,

Let me get this straight: This is what has happened in the relationship to date?

And, he hides you from family and friends? Probably so you cannot compare notes. They hear one side from him, and you have the other. Sounds familiar.

My pwBPD now acknowldeges this is the case, and says hes forgiven me, but continues to keep me hidden, and won't allow me to participate in his life in many areas ie: meeting his friends, going to his church, meeting his mother. He says I have to do 12 step work and has pretty much told me I have to make an amends to his mother and 'work on myself and my issues' before 'doors will open'... . It feels very controlling, calculated and I feel he hopes I will fail as its always about me and my lack so long as Im not doing the tasks he says I should to get the rewards of being in his life more openly.

Doesn't look like there is much reason to be in his life, seriously. He wants to guilt you into this?

This is a head game.

[pixiepie]

Satis - it feels like a head game and he's in the control tower.

[DragoN]

Yes, and from the outside looking in, it reads like a head game.

You are in control. Not him.

Disengage yourself. You cannot win these games. Nor is there compromise with the disordered possible. But you can choose Not to play. That is up to you.

[pixiepie]

Satis -  thanks, I do feel disengaging is the best option. now to put that into practise... .

[DragoN]

It's not easy, but it is necessary. You can do it. Focus on your Truth. He will spin it for you. They are very good at that, FOG, in this case guilt and obligation seem to be his main playing cards. Take those cards back. 

[real lady]

Her opinion on things is very important to him, especially surrounding women and the women he dates, he gets her to vett them all including me.

Wow pixiepie, it seems like he has experienced a lot of abuse from a PD family. I would say that he is HURTING real bad and that is NOT even with adding you to the picture. If I understand "vetted", he defends and protects YOU and had defended other women in his life from his mother's negative opinions of them? It doesn't really sound like it would be that way to me... . I'm confused.

For whatever reasons though, and I suspect its the way I communicate (quite openly) he has held me at bay and at one point launched a smear campaign behind my back to control my presence in his life, only now seems completely unwilling to set the balance correctly in the deliberate misinformation he has disseminated. He tells me he has said things good about me since but I actually don't believe him and feel he is managing me.

As nons, we can always tend to "bring things back to ourselves" as being responsible, even just in part, to a pwBPD's behavior but really isn't HE responsible for not "creating a smear campaign behind your back"?  As pwBPD, they tend to NOT take responsibility for their own behavior and project their broken selves onto us as "needing help" or "being crazy" instead of looking at themselves. Have you told him that you feel that this is abusive behavior and you do not like it?

Im not allowed to come over, or to talk to him when shes around because he says its upsetting for her, in brief last year he confided a great many things in me (now Im understanding what dysregulation is I think was in a HUGE period of this at the time) as well as being moody, depressed, vengeful, emotionally absent, cheating, verbally and emotionally abusive.

How did you feel about that? I might feel rejected and unloved for sure with not "being allowed to come over" while she visits. It must be very conflicting for him and pushing you away is easier than pushing his mother away. He seems to be controlled by her and thus he has learned HOW to control others. I can understand why this behavior seems so unfair to you.

I was so in love with him I couldn't understand what was happening, I confided in someone, the someone abused my trust and divulged all to his brother with additional made up things I never said. There was a huge family eruption, my pwBPD tried to kill himself, the family fractured, I got blamed for everything.

I know that I HAD TO reach out to a trusted counselor and this board, we NEED the validation that we are hurting, confused, frustrated and sometimes, angry at the abuse we are given. I also know that if I had told a certain friend or family member that they may have done the same thing as your friends did to you by telling him what you said, etc. But I have found that this really is a NORMAL way for a mentally ill person to respond to our opinions, thoughts, pain... . they cannot empathize with us or have compassion on us. They are not able UNTIL they seek therapy and WANT to heal, they will continue to "do life" as they have learned it. My uBPDso threatened suicide twice but fortunately, I had understood that this is not so much a threat to us but a HOPE OF RELIEF for them. The pain is excruciating and having someone else KNOW about it, is like revealing the pain and even telling them "how bad they are" for behaving this way.

left me feeling suicidal and depressed because I had only wanted to understand how to better help him, and ended up essentially being framed by my confidante and the pwBPD's brother, who made up a story I had been salaciously gossiping in a public forum about all the family secrets.

I hope that you feel better now and would seek professional help if you would ever feel like you may feel depressed to the point of self-harm... . it is NOT uncommon for those of us who are more mentally healthy but maybe emotionally damaged to feel distraught over being misunderstood. I understand.   I have found that RARELY are pwBPD willing to SEE US AS WE ARE... . I think it is mainly due to them NOT wanting us to SEE THEM AS THEY ARE... . just my observations.

This was apparently to shut me down and manage me, they must have felt embarrassed someone knew about all their dark family secrets and set about trying to kill their brothers friendship with me.

So much abuse... . have you tried to step away from it and set a boundary to protect yourself from further pain or possible self-harm?

My pwBPD now acknowldeges this is the case, and says hes forgiven me, but continues to keep me hidden, and won't allow me to participate in his life in many areas ie: meeting his friends, going to his church, meeting his mother.

Have you read the articles on this site and learned how a pwBPD TWISTS things to try to  make themselves "the victim" who is being attacked by us? Do you feel that he should be seeking YOUR forgiveness instead? How do you feel about "being kept hidden?" I am sure that I would feel that he does not value me, not that I am not valuable but that HE IS UNABLE or unwilling to value, trust and care for ME.

He says I have to do 12 step work and has pretty much told me I have to make an amends to his mother and 'work on myself and my issues' before 'doors will open'... . It feels very controlling, calculated and I feel he hopes I will fail as its always about me and my lack so long as Im not doing the tasks he says I should to get the rewards of being in his life more openly.

Wow, he wants YOU to "do 12 step work"? I would call that "deflecting" so he doesn't have to answer for his behavior toward you.

How do you "take good care of you?" Is there a friend, a hobby, an activity that you really enjoy and do you spend time doing things that bring you happiness? We need to take care of ourselves, our pwBPD do NOT do that... . maybe you can see that by the way your BPD has behaved. I am sorry that you are going through this. 

[pixiepie]

@real lady

you assessment is more or less entirely accurate. when I said vetted I mean he basically says to her 'what about this one, what do you think of this one? do you like her? should I date her?' and then waits for a response. He seems not to have faith in his choice. She then points out that if he has to ask her he must have doubts, which whilst being sort of true has the converse effect of making him doubtful and he backs off. Im 39, I don't ask my mother for her opinion or her blessing when I date, its none of her business and I am a grown up.

I agree he is hurting and full of pain, you can see it in his eyes, unfortunately I think he knows that and he uses it as a tool in his favour because he looks helpless and in need of protection.

His complete lack of taking responsibility and deflection of his behaviour drives me mad, and yet at various times hes said to me 'I know I have emotionally abused you, but I can't stop'. When he keeps me at bay it feels grossly unfair and I experience immense shame. He has tried to rationalise to me that he isn't hiding me at all but that 'now is not the appropriate moment to meet my mother, you have 'work' to do (12 steps) before that happens, and she might not be open to that'... . So essentially hes decided no meeting till step work is completed because he wants me to apologise to his family for what happend.

On that score... . do I think he should apologise to me ask for my forgiveness? you're damned straight I do and yet my feelings, distress, and the abuse he acknowledges he engages in is not taken into account, its all about him, and whats happening to him. Because he ended up in a mental health unit thats the pinnacle of the event, never mind me. It does feel unfair, I do feel completely unvalued and dispensible.

But I observe he has this power with all his women friends. Its come to my attention that there were 2 females at his baptism, (that I wasn't invited to) and some kind of verbal altercation occurred between the women who had never met (Im not allowed to meet them, they don't even know about me except historically and negatively). Its my belief that currently both women have feelings for him and were jockeying for position, but I beleive they also at different times have felt undervalued by him and confused by his attach/detach pattern. Like me I think he made them feel very special but never actually did anything for them and they have been left feeling dissatisfied. I don't know how he manages it but we all end up apologising to him, letting away his behaviour and thinking we've done something wrong... . because basically he tells us its us, not him... . unbeleiveable.

I absolutely agree that I observe a complete absence of willingness from him. When he tells me all the things Im supposed to do to receive what I want but hes not required to do anything. It seems weird and nonsensical to tell a person they have to try harder but you do nothing... it indicates you don't really want it yourself. He does not see me as I am, because he treats me differently to every other person in my life, and thats badly. If I were to point this out to him he would respond that I am behaving badly because I am selfish and ungrateful and I should be thankful that he even speaks to me given hes been nice enough to forgive me in the first place. I have to laugh because this is now his default position whenever he places me in an abusive situation. His logic is infallible.

I have friends and family and am receiving counselling as well as going to Alanon once a week.

I emailed him after he was rude to me 2 nights ago, and used alot of the tools from this website. It seemed to arrest the situation, he spoke with me willingly and without spoiling for an argument... . however he has got the flu and so it was an opportunity for him to get sympathy and be the centre again. He still has not apologised for talking to me poorly. I offered to take him a cooked meal, and he said no because he knows I have surgery this week and doesn't want me to get sick. Whilst I want to beleive hes being genuine and caring, I actually think he just raised the issue of my impending operation which he told me he has no interest in, to control me coming round for his own gain, it has nothing to do with me not getting sick at all and everything to do with him not wanting to see me.

[DragoN]

I actually think he just raised the issue of my impending operation which he told me he has no interest in, to control me coming round for his own gain

Pixiepie, these are not the words nor actions of someone who claims to love you. I bet you money, were any of us on this board in your area, we would offer to be there out of simple human decency to someone we have shared and communicated with. We don't need to love you for that. Being human? It's not that hard.



Look at his actions and not his words. Nothing else is relevant when dealing with a pwBPD and no matter then, the actions can flip on a dime at any time as well. Observe closely.

[pixiepie]

@Satis - he seems to lack a certain basic humanity towards others unless he's trying to impress you. In that case he really fits that knight in shining armour category until he gets bored with you or you no longer fulfill his requirements. For the moment I have defused the constant going off at the slightest thing effectively by constructing an email I cut and paste and stuck together off this website using the recommended tools of communication. Hes no longer having little tantrums but he's lying his face off about some things and continuing to have one way dialogue (lets talk about me not you, I will ask about you but my lack of responses show my question was a hollow one to start). Also my cat has gone missing, I mention this him and... . no response. hahaha honestly I have to now laugh at this because what did I expect?

This will take time for me to come to terms with but Im willing.