Confusing emotions

[mango_flower]

I've been getting a few missed calls from my ex on my old phone (and a few voicemails, just saying hi and asking how I am).  I usually drop her an email the next day just saying "hey, sorry I missed your call, hope you're well).

Which leads me to believe her new life isn't as perfect as she thought, and she is seeking reassurance from me (I always made her feel safe, that is one thing she can't ever take away from me)

Things seem to be going great with her new gf, from what I see on facebook etc.

But apart from her relationship, she isn't all that happy by all accounts.

Her facebook posts moan about the weather, the traffic, the fact she hurt her leg etc etc.

Today's one was insightful -

Saying she was really upset her gf is working away, and how it's NOT FAIR and WHY DID THEY HAVE TO SEND HER? And that she'd burst into tears and wanted to kill somebody.

She's a 28 year old woman!  And she KNEW that this girl worked away a lot when she met her.

So clearly the crazy is now coming out, now they're engaged.  Up until now, I 100% guarantee you she would have been like "Aw sweetheart I'll miss you but I understand".

Seems that this new girl is under the thumb... .

And new girl is probs feeling horribly guilty, anxious about leaving her, wanting to pacify her... .

I am intrigued that I have so many mixed emotions:

1. Good!  I am glad that new girl is seeing the crazy neediness. I am glad she will be feeling guilty and rubbish - after all, she stole her away from me and convinced her to move to her home town - serves her right she now has to get all this crap!

2. I'm so worried about my ex... . she seems so unhappy - she was NEVER this needy with me!  Is she getting worse?  Did I cause her mental state to get worse as she perceived I never loved her enough, and she felt abandoned when I wanted to postpone the wedding?  I feel so guilty... . I just want her to be ok! 

3. Conflicted - I want to answer her calls and be a stable rock for her... . but I know it'd set me back, so I won't

4. Anxious - does this mean she will try leaning on me more?  Am I going to get more calls/texts/emails, even though it won't be a recycling attempt?

5. Vindicated - see, it wasn't just ME that caused the craziness - I haven't been near her and she's still being weird.

Hmmmm just getting thoughts down here! It's so very confusing!

[badromance]

This will not answer any of your questions but may serve as something useful to consider. I am in a NC phase with my ex. I used to do the fb stalk thing and when asked by my T why, was simple, it was my only way I could stay attached to her. The conversation continued, why would I want to do that if I am trying to detach. This is about me now and trying to not worry about being their for her. I am the broken one that can be fixed and I need to focus on me. NC is for us, and that means NC which included for me letting go of trying to predict her moods, emotions or where abouts. It's hard and I am tempted but at the same time 2weeks off fb comepletely is relieving. I am not worring about her and predicting her needs and it shows I do have the strength to stop her. She takes me for grantite and I'll always be there, and I have to change that about me, because it's true. It's going to be a long hard road and I see her from time to time. I do have weak moments but I know I'm worth more, I deserve more and not someone's doormat.

[mango_flower]

Hi Badromance!  I have churned over the NC thing in my head and it just doesn't work for me. I'm going with controlled contact!   I'm going to try and check her fb less though haha!

I'm ok with low contact to be honest.  I believe that for me, the only way out is through. I'm a processor, I need to work through the emotions and meet them head on, rather than just blocking and ignoring. It's cool that it works for some, I guess we're all different.

I'm not really sure what answer I am looking for in my post really 

Just sometimes helps writing it down and getting it out there.  And if it ever helps anyone else by making them realise they're not alone in all of this confusion, then all the better

You're sounding quite upbeat in your post - this pleases me!  Glad you're doing ok x

[TheDude]

I have churned over the NC thing in my head and it just doesn't work for me. I'm going with controlled contact!

Mango, Mango, Mango... . what are we gonna do with you?   

To what end do you justify clinging to this? What are you afraid of happening if you cut her off completely? You're never going to truly detach if you continue interacting with her, as should already be obvious. Are you really okay with the role of her emotional tampon?

How about considering at least trying letting go through 'NC' for, say, one month? If you haven't done it yet, then how can you say it doesn't "work" for you? The bottom line is that continuing to interact with her is keeping you stuck, confused, and hurt. Letting her go - really letting her go - is the only way you're ever going to start properly healing. Can you do 30 days? If not, why not?

[mango_flower]

I don't know what we can do with me! 

I went 12 days NC.  Was ill the whole time, stress, night sweats, shaking, anxiety... . saw a therapist (who I've since stopped seeing as can't afford it) who said that by repressing it all and shoving it down into my subconscious, that it was affecting me physically as I wasn't dealing with it.

I dunno!  I think I also mentioned that she's due to start paying me back money she borrowed at the end of April, as she now has a job... . so part of it is also wanting to keep her sweet to see if she comes good on her promise.  She's usually pretty good at paying money back but I do think that if I gave her ANY reason to be angry at me, she wouldn't... . and right now I'm broke.

If the money doesn't show up at the end of this month, then I will defo reconsider NC, as it would tell me that she has no intention of paying it.

On the plus side, I got a referral through work for therapy... . have my assessment in a week's time x

[theboro504]

My 2 cents worth. A thought process that is helping me is 2 fold. The first part is that my ex has a team of enablers and men that will tell her whatever she wants to hear or give her whatever she wants when she reaches for it. I'd rather take a bullet through the brain pan than be one of them.

The other thing, and is less self serving, is that the only hope she may ever (unlikely I know) see a need to examine herself and get real help is if she does not get her way. I am fine being that 1 person in her life who does not give her her way. Yes, it's just 1 person, but that's 1 more than she is use to.

[mango_flower]

My 2 cents worth. A thought process that is helping me is 2 fold. The first part is that my ex has a team of enablers and men that will tell her whatever she wants to hear or give her whatever she wants when she reaches for it. I'd rather take a bullet through the brain pan than be one of them.

The other thing, and is less self serving, is that the only hope she may ever (unlikely I know) see a need to examine herself and get real help is if she does not get her way. I am fine being that 1 person in her life who does not give her her way. Yes, it's just 1 person, but that's 1 more than she is use to.

That makes sense to me

Don't worry, I am not catering to her every whim.  I haven't even answered my phone to her!  I've reduced contact... . slowly letting it taper off.  (Though she has started calling/emailing more since I have done this).  I reply on my terms.  I don't buy into the dramas of her day.  If it is something SERIOUS however, e.g. she is in hospital for a medical problem she has (this is genuine and is life threatening at times), I will of course send her my best wishes and love, I wouldn't ignore that.  x

[theboro504]

Maybe I'm a jerk, but I would ignore it. Mine made her trade and choices, I intend to let her live with them and part of that for me is, I am gone... . Just gone. Let her latest target deal with whatever happens. I loved her and her children deeply and gave it my all. like any child, they have to have consequences to their choices.

[sunrising]

The other thing, and is less self serving, is that the only hope she may ever (unlikely I know) see a need to examine herself and get real help is if she does not get her way. I am fine being that 1 person in her life who does not give her her way. Yes, it's just 1 person, but that's 1 more than she is use to.

  Bravo!... .  

It was me finally setting boundaries and standing my ground which caused my ex to come so unglued she wound up in a mental facility and was diagnosed as having BPD traits.  The guilt i felt for "sending her over the edge" was nearly unbearable.   I also felt really guilty about NC because cutting someone completely out of my life was absolutely unnatural to me and she was trying to contact me.

It took someone on this forum pointing out to me that I gave her the ultimate gift- accountability and a diagnosis- to relieve my guilt over these things. 

[mango_flower]

I have to be honest... . one of my fears is suicide.

I know she was very close to it before.

And it wouldn't be my fault now, as she isn't with me. It would be her own demons.

But what if any ignoring from me tipped her over the edge?

*cowers, waiting to be slapped by somebody here for saying it out loud* 

[sunrising]

I have to be honest... . one of my fears is suicide.

I know she was very close to it before.

And it wouldn't be my fault now, as she isn't with me. It would be her own demons.

But what if any ignoring from me tipped her over the edge?

Mango, it wouldn't have been your fault if it happened while you were with her, and it wouldn't be your fault now.   My ex vaguely threatened self-harm in the days before she was hospitalized by saying, "I hope if something happens to me, you'll at least feel a little bad".  My response: "If something happens to you, that will be your choice.  Not mine... . " 

Does it seem a little, dare I say, *arrogant* to you that you feel like you control another person's emotions to the extent you could cause them to or prevent them from taking their own life?    I think the reality is we absolutely do not have that much control over another person's emotions or behavior.

[seeking balance]

Mango,

Well, I will say it - you seem to be playing with fire... .

Can you help me understand what is confusing to you about your emotions - honestly, what are you confused about?  All of it seems pretty typical for someone still holding on... . and in the bargaining phase of grief. 

Suicide is serious and you are not a professional - as such, thinking you are a factor is dangerous on your part.  If you are truly scared for her - call proper authorities, otherwise it sounds like a justification to continue keeping tabs on her so you don't have to accept the relationship is over.

Exactly what kind of feedback are you looking for on this thread? 

Peace,

SB

[mango_flower]

I don't think I have enough power to prevent her taking her own life - what I do know is that she gets herself in a tizzy about things, and when this happens, her head goes mental, and she starts seeing things very non-clearly.  That is when I worry for her.

I know for a fact that I can never cure her, but I don't know if it's arrogant to assume I can help calm her down a bit?  People commit suicide in moments of turmoil, I guess we all know it's not a rational decision - an emotive one, yes.  One thing that winds her up and gets her into that state is being ignored.  Why would I do something that would put her into that state, when it doesn't kill me to be polite back and engage with her on a fairly superficial level?

I'm confused how it's playing with fire Seeking Balance... . not too sure what that means    I thought that controlled contact was gradually decreasing it and letting it taper off because you engage less, as that is what I am doing.  That's how I understood it anyway, let me know if I have that wrong as maybe I misunderstood.

Regardless of my warped thinking on whether I would be a factor in any possible suicide, I don't want to take that chance. I'd rather not put myself in that situation where I end up in years of counselling,   and tormenting myself, asking "what if I'd only done X,Y,Z".

I'm not truly scared for her.  She seems kind of ok at the mo, little dramas but nothing major.  Which is why I HAVEN'T returned her calls or picked up the phone.   I keep tabs on her because I want to know if things really ARE ever bad, so I know when to pick up the phone.

And I assure you that even if she wanted to come back tomorrow, I wouldn't go there.  I accept the relationship is over.  She is no longer the person I thought she was.  She is no longer my sweet girl.

I've said it loads, but I am not grieving for her.  I am grieving for what we were supposed to have, which we can never have now, even if she decided she wanted it.

And the feedback I was looking for was for people to tell me that they too have been there, they understand the confusion and mixed emotions, and that I'm not alone.  Because right now, I feel like I really am.  Nobody gets it - my friends don't understand why I don't hate her, why I'm not angry with her... . but I know that some people here just "get" it.  I hate feeling so conflicted and like I don't know myself anymore.

So yeah.  That sort of feedback.  Or any useful tips to stop the cognitive dissonance etc etc etc.

[sunrising]

I'm not truly scared for her.  She seems kind of ok at the mo, little dramas but nothing major.  Which is why I HAVEN'T returned her calls or picked up the phone.   I keep tabs on her because I want to know if things really ARE ever bad, so I know when to pick up the phone.

Mango, I shouldn't have used "arrogant" to describe your belief that you could cause or prevent suicide.  *Misguided* would have been a better word.

When you say you keep tabs on her so you'll know when to pick up the phone, do you mean to call her/ answer her call?

[mango_flower]

Misguided... . ha, that's me 

I mean, if I know what she's up to (and trust me, I have cut the facebook stalking down from about 20 times a day to once or twice, so massive improvement there, especially as I have actually been diagnosed with OCD when younger!) then I can relax.

I know it's not tackling the problem but until my assessment next week for help with the anxiety and OCD/tics that have been increasing, I'm not sure how else to get through it.

Let's say I see she's had a rubbish day at work, and moaning about it on fb, but other than that she was ok, I wouldn't answer the phone if she called, I'd wait a couple of days and then send a quick email just saying "Hey, saw your missed call the other day, hope all is good". (But I wait until evening so her gf will be with her and she can't call back!).

Let's say I saw on fb that her friend had died (or something dramatic!) then I'd answer that call if she rang.  Regardless.  I'd do that to any human being, I'd help anyone who needed a friendly ear... . she has her gf, so I don't worry too much, but her gf works away a lot and she doesn't really have any close friends - maybe just one or two. 

I know, I am being too nice... . eek. 

[mango_flower]

I just hate to think that if she ever REALLY needed me, I'd ignore her.  And I'm pretty certain she wouldn't kill herself, but she has been very close to it in the past - and if I can just be a friendly ear if she ever got THAT bad, then it would at least delay the process until she had other people physically closer to keep an eye on her.

Not really sure I'm making sense here 

[sunrising]

I just hate to think that if she ever REALLY needed me, I'd ignore her.  And I'm pretty certain she wouldn't kill herself, but she has been very close to it in the past - and if I can just be a friendly ear if she ever got THAT bad, then it would at least delay the process until she had other people physically closer to keep an eye on her.

This is my advice and you might get different advice from someone else, but if you think she (or anyone) is suicidal, immediately call emergency services.  Unless you've failed to mention you're a trained suicide interventionist or mental health professional, I would strongly advise against getting involved in a potentially suicidal situation; for her safety and yours.  That's a job for professionals only. 

[mango_flower]

Oh, I would, don't worry

Don't know where she lives though 

[KE151]

Being now NC for 13 months, all I can say is that the horrible pain in the beginning will pass and better times will come. About a year ago I started a thread where I tried to understand why the pain seems worse after the break up than before it. I was told that it's simply withdrawal symptoms from a seriousy addictive, toxic r/s. I buy that.

Mango_flower, you seem to WANT to stay in contact as you are coming up with reasons for that yourself. If she is BPD, I guarantee you, you will get sucked back in and burned badly, once again, and this will slow down your recovery and ultimately, your healing. You should focus on getting clean, and working on yourself!

[mango_flower]

KE151 - interesting - yes I do want to stay in contact, but on my terms.  That said, when I see a text/email/missed call, I get that anxious feeling of dread in my stomach. In an ideal world, I'd LOVE if she could just leave me alone, as long as I wasn't painted black... .

I'd honestly rather she was happy enough that she didn't NEED to contact me.

I won't get sucked back into her dramas, I may be in her life but her dramas are no longer mine 

[patientandclear]

(i) I think it is clear she will at some point fairly soon flee the new r/s and try to come back to you.  All the signs seem present.  You've been sweet about the ending and kept in contact, kept yourself available to her.  The light looks green from where she sits.  And she is testing the waters with her current contact, and she isn't doing well, and she has needs this current r/s isn't meeting, and fears about the new woman not being around ... . the writing is on the wall.

(ii) I too said I would be in touch with my ex with an absolute decision that I would not re-enter a romantic r/s with him if he wanted to, because I understood the whole world was a trigger for him, I couldn't take more sudden leaving, and he had seemingly no insight into what had happened when he suddenly left me.  So I got back in touch as friends.  I will say it was immensely difficult to maintain that line in my own head once he really focused on me, pulled me close emotionally, and so on.  I am skeptical whether you really can and will maintain that line if she attempts to reunite.  But maybe you aren't finished playing that out, and if so, you may need to continue down the road to really get to the point where you will not get back together even if she really tests that.

(iii) I really support your approach of LC or CC, rather than NC.  I think NC can become a fetish & can actually keep people stuck.  I think it did me.  I spent 10 months in complete NC and it made it really hard for me to move on -- there were things I wasn't sure about & I could never become sure because the future we might have had was all fictional to me -- what might have happened had I stayed in touch.  Like you MF, my r/s ended when it was all peaches and cream, there was never any awfulness, and that made it all seem so unreal and not right, and ultimately impossible to accept.  I needed contact with my ex to really see and accept how he is.  How he would have been had we reunited.

NC is a tool to be used if it helps.  If it does not help, it is not the goal.  If you can detach through contact, which basically is what I and some others here have done, that's good too.

P&C

[grad]

perhaps it's your withdrawing and unavailability which is making her miserable.  perhaps it's making her look at her new supply in a different way.  keep being unavailable (minimal, controlled contact... . on your terms not hers) but don't completely ignore her.  and stop obsessing over it.  i know, i know it's difficult but you need to let go and carry the hope in your heart, not your mind.

[DragoN]

Of the 5 emotions listed:



5. Vindicated - see, it wasn't just ME that caused the craziness - I haven't been near her and she's still being weird.


This is the only one about YOU.

[Suzn]

If the money doesn't show up at the end of this month, then I will defo reconsider NC, as it would tell me that she has no intention of paying it.

Ok now you're playing with fire. NC is NOT a tool to punish someone with. CC is for BOTH of you to slowly detach. You said yourself you were ill about NC when you tried it. It didn't work for you and that's ok. Staying true to what works for you takes strength Mango. Good for you for doing what's right for you.

A second note. CC is not for manipulation either. To keep her "nice" so she will pay you. She's either going to pay you back the money she owes or she's not. CC is to help both of you while your feeling the pain of detachment, as we all have our own abandonment issues.

How did this go from your concern for her facebook posts to suicide? Why are you letting yourself go to this extreme in your mind?

Here's a challenge for you. Can you keep yourself out of her facebook? Can you see where this practice can help YOU detach? Can you redirect your focus to YOUR life now?

You are still attached if you are visiting her facebook to "check" on her. She needs to fight her own battles with her emotions. If you are always looking to rush in and save her you would be stealing her life lessons. Can you see how this is akin to walking behind a toddler who is learning to walk in order to catch them every time they look as if they may fall? She is an adult Mango and you are not her parent. This is a codependent behavior.

IF it comes to the point of suicide threats with her, and this for anyone, you can offer a local suicide hotline number so SHE can reach out to help herself. That's how you can do your part there.

[theboro504]

I deactivated my facebook account immediately and have yet to regret it. All hogwash anyway and too tempting.

I hate to say a thing like this, because generally I am a positive, hopeful person; but I have learned in the last 2.5 mo that even a little hope with a disordered person is dangerous. Going back on facebook or any other social network to see "what they think" is a waste of hope. Besides, did you know what she thought in real life? There is no magic bs filter on facebook either.

You're worth is not, was not and never will be dictated by other humans. We are all worthy at birth of far better treatment than a pwBPD can give and imo the realization of that truth is the magic bullet we all need.

[BeHappyAgain]

Hi Mango Flower

Please don't beat yourself up over the NC or LC route.

We are hard wired for relationships, and when a good or bad one that meant a lot to us (understatement of the month) gets abruptly ripped away for no good reason that we can see - its only natural to want to repair it.

During this emotional crises its really hard to objectively examine your motives. Your craving the 'love' and validation that person gave you, wishing to repair and get back to (what we now know was) the 'idealization' and mirroring stage.

The craving makes us act against our own best interests - we'll put up with anything and tell ourselves we can endure anything just for another fix.

This acting against our own interests is one interpretation of 'Playing with fire'

Something patientandclear said above really resonated with me, it was my situation a couple of years back - I feel it might be where you are now in the BPD dance(?)

Like you MF, my r/s ended when it was all peaches and cream, there was never any awfulness, and that made it all seem

so unreal and not right, and ultimately impossible to accept.  I needed contact with my ex to really see and accept how he is.

How to say this... .

Everyone here, me included, would spare you the pain of sticking your hand back on that hot stove again... . but although you should RUN not walk away, although you should jump for joy at being free, although your now younger  and wiser... .

despite all that - something in you thinks you could/should still salvage it right?

Well - my relationship ended in Feb 2011 when it was all 'peaches and cream'

The pointless and sudden ending took me too unknown depths of pain and confusion as you can imagine.

Here's the thing, I went the LC route, telling myself it was practical reasons - but  really it was because I was hoping against hope for a reprieve from the pain and a chance to "get back to being us" as I used to say (I knew nothing about BPD at the time).

We got back together after 3 months LC plus one month NC

I WAS ECSTATIC!

What followed was (maybe) 2 good months (even they weren't without incident).

I proposed and we got engaged.

What followed after that (and what I needed to go through to understand) were 9 months knowing that she'd left me for someone else - and had only come back because that didn't work. That knowledge will eat away at you MangoFlower.

Added ingredients to the toxic cake I was prepared to eat for the rest of my life included; emotional unavailability, sexual rejection, being used when useful but otherwise ignored. Oh and emotional affairs (maybe more) at work.

Thank heaven she dumped me because I would have eaten it up forever 

You may get her back - but its like Stephen King's book 'Pet Semetry'

You get what you loved back - but it isn't gonna work out the way you thought!

l'm sorry to say but please examine the reasons you wish to maintain contact with her - its probably born out of your intense pain, confusion and wish to salvage what you thought you had.

Up to the Feb 2011 abandonment it had been a (I use the term very loosely) a peaches and cream relationship. That made it hard for me to accept it was a bad deal as a relationship.

I needed to experience another year of pain and fear before I could say 'I'm done'

Maybe you do too?

Maybe another few months [or years] spent receiving a daily emotional kicking would get you out of hoping and into the 'I'm done trying to fix this' phase?

Maybe... . but I really hope not.

We would all spare you that pain 

Dare to enjoy your freedom.