BPD with sadistic traits, advice, please.

[Louise7777]

Hi there!

I have been reading a lot about BPD and this forum has helped me a lot.  Thanks for the answers and for the shared stories, its so helpful!

Im thinking now that my uBPD relative has sadistic traits as well. Did anybody have that experience? If BPD is bad, BPD with sadistic traits is almost unbearable. If anybody has advice on this, please let me know. Im guessing NC is the best way to go. Any reading material you would suggest? Thanks!

[doubleAries]

Hi cristina2323,

In the DSM3, there was an entry under personality disorders called "Sadistic Personality Disorder". Millon has subtypes of all these and the one that fits my mother is Sadistic PD with Borderline features, or "explosive Sadist". That entry was removed from DSM4 and isn't likley to appear in the DSM5 coming out this year. But the list of criteria (google up Sadistic PD, the wikipedia page is great) fits my mom like a glove. ALL the criteria. She fits this much better than the BPD criteria.

And I know what you mean--they SUCK to be around! They make regular BPD's look like sweet little old ladies!

The best book on all this I have ever read is "Understanding the Borderline Mother" by Christine Lawson. It's a bit pricey, but more than worth it. Here is an article summarizing the book BPD BEHAVIORS: Waif, Hermit, Queen, and Witch you may especially want to check out "the witch". And as Lawson points out in the book, there is no negotiating with the witch.

Many BPD's are "waif's, hermits, and queens", but become "witches" from time to time. You have to walk away from the witch, but can learn to deal with the waif, hermit or queen. In my case, my mom is not a waif, hermit or queen. She is strictly a witch, so I had to cut off all contact with her. She's a dangerous person. I am not recommending any or everyone else do this--only if she is a truly dangerous person. NC ends the danger but doesn't do anything about your internal struggles, and how this kind of childhood has effected you and your coping skills How a Mother with Borderline Personality Disorder Affects Her Children . Whether you have contact or not, you still have to learn new more appropriate coping skills to deal with the world at large (rather than reacting as you would to a sadist).

So no, you are not alone. I know all about the sadist. Best of luck.

doubleAries

[Louise7777]

DoubleAries, thank you so much! Im so sorry for you, its no picnic to deal with them! BPD seems easy compared to them indeed.

I just realized shes a sadistic witch type with BPD (or the other way around, probably). Now I fully realize WHY its so hard to deal with her! Sometimes she changes to queen, but mostly shes the witch type.

Fortunately shes not my mother (shes my aunt) but in her mind she "adopted" me as hers and as soon as I showed some personality of my own (on my teens) she painted me black. The ammount of rage, cruelty and humiliating remarks has no end. For sometime now I have been on NC, but you are SO right, the scars are still there.

Thank you SOO much, it was great to finally being able to see whats going on... .    

[Louise7777]

DoubleAries and motherof1yo, thank you for your input!

I read more and  Millon´s subtype malevolent fits also... . There are so many comorbidities involved in her case... . Sad that she always refused any treatment, never felt anything was wrong with her (everyone else had issues, not her!). At her age (80´s), no meds, no therapy! So many decades and never looked for help... . I can only think she made us all sick while she feels fine... . Only way now is to protect ourselves.

[motherof1yearold]

So sorry you are going through this. Sadly it is typical with these cluster B personality disorders, and with many co morbidities. So sorry you are going through this.

[Louise7777]

You know what, motherof1yo? I feel relieved now that I added more info to the diagnosis (made by myself, but still). I feel I have done 80% of the work by now. I knew there was something very wrong abt her behaviour, but now I named it (name and surname!). It gave me some sense of peace, its like an "eureka moment".   

[doubleAries]

Yeah, it's pretty bad to grow up with, with no escape. Witch mom and NPD father were divorced when I was an infant, and every other weekend I went for visitation to see NPD dad, who was my knight in shining armor hero for saving me from the witch, even if for only a couple days here and there--until he started molesting me at age 7. Then I was just shuttling back and forth between 2 different versions of hell.

Definitely do read up about ASPD. More women are diagnosed BPD and more men are diagnosed ASPD, but there are definitely ASPD women and BPD men.

My younger brother is diagnosed ASPD. He likes to tell people "ASPD" is a form of depression  that he's being treated for. Lying is an ASPD characteristic.

I know the relief you speak of. The entire time I was growing up, my 3 brothers and I knew there was something seriously wrong with our mother, that it wasn't just "strictness". But I never knew what it was until a year and a half ago when I told my T a "mild" story about witch mom, and he said "that sounds like BPD. You should research that" and as I followed the trail, the lightbulbs were popping on. It was an indescribable relief to finally understand the parameters of what I had been dealing with for so long! Certainly I still needed/need to do the work of overcoming the subconscious tapes playing in my head about how it must be my fault, but just knowing what the deal was changed so many things!

I still recommend Lawson's book. It is the biggest light bulb of all.

doubleAries

[Louise7777]

Thank you so much, DoubleAries! Im so sorry to know what you have been through! Its heartbreaking to see a child going through all that.

Im reading about ASPD and sociopathy and psychopathy... .   Its really scary! I have read about that before, but maybe I was in denial and had to go step by step until I reached what I now believe is the right diagnosis.

Too bad we were exposed to such behaviours. Nowadays information is way more handy than it was in the past, to begin with. We were all in the dark when dealing with them. And internet can help so much! Im so glad I found this forum!

Now Im getting scared to have inherited some traits! LOL

[doubleAries]

Don't be scared--we all go through this!

Here's how you know you aren't BPD or ASPD--because you THINK you are. I know that's kind of an old joke, but it's not really a joke. PD people truly believe they don't have any issues. It's YOU and everybody else. If you are looking to improve yourself, then you aren't PD! 

That's not to say we haven't picked up some problems--mostly self esteem issues, codependency, self worth/self value issues, and the like. And maybe we even display at times some of the traits we have learned from the pwPD's.

I question myself ALL THE TIME about whether I am in denial or not. I can't imagine any person with a PD doing this. Not to say that questioning yourself about denial all the time isn't a problem, but it's certainly not a PD problem.

As children, one of the problems is that we tend to believe it was our actions or existence even that "caused" the PD person to act the way they did towards us or others. This generally leads us to become "rescuers" who have to "fix" or "help" or "rescue" someone in order to be worthy of love. This is not healthy, but it is NOT a personality disorder characteristic.

[Louise7777]

Thanks again, DoubleAries! You have "seen the light" way ahead of me, lucky you! I feel conforted by your words, not many people can understand my feelings.   

You are right about the joke. Im not a BPD, Im aware of that, but you are right, we get affected no matter what.

Being near her always sucked all my energy and I felt down for days afterwards. Did this ever happen to you? Even being in her 80´s, she still has a "quality" of being a "force of nature". Not sure Im explaining it properly: she has so much strenght, so much rage that she puts everyone down... .   She was like a tornado... .   And we all just watched it forming and destroying us in its way. Thats the best way I can describe her. (Im NC now).

Have u watched the movie "The exorcism of Emily Rose"? If you did, you will relate to some particular scene... .  

[doubleAries]

That's what's so nice about this forum--all of here can understand each others feelings!  That is very important to me--because out in "the real world" very few people understand what I'm talking about in regards to my mother--even people who have experience with BPD!

Hard for me to explain for my situation about that feeling of having all my energy sucked down for days--because in my situation, it was my mother. In your situation, it's your aunt, so you get away from her after a while, and then have a different feeling to compare that feeling to. I didn't have that opportunity. I was drained all the time. And terrified. Walking on eggshells, believing that I could somehow prevent the next beating by being gooder somehow. By doing this, or doing that, or NOT doing this or that. didn't work. But what DID happen is that kind of coping method became a deeply ingrained automatic behavior. I still try that with other people. It still doesn't work.

My mom was sort of "larger than life". She entirely dominated the room. The whole house. We were all scared to death of her--including my stepdad (who was a Vietnam veteran--he told me after they finally divorced that none of the front lines action he saw in Vietnam compared to the fear he felt around his wife, my mother). The best we could hope for in my house was neglect. And that's basically what our lives were about--when she wasn't in a flaming hate filled rage, she disdainfully dismissed us and ignored us completely. As kids, the ignoring/neglect looked like "peace and harmony". It has taken many years to understand that neglect leaves deep scars, and makes you believe aren't worthy of love. I told my T (when we were discussing my "self talk" that I must be filled with self hatred--I didn't consciously feel that way about myself, but nothing else made sense. that must be why I continue to get myself into very dysfunctional settings and relationships. He said "self loathing? You aren't even good enough for that." I stared at him in astonishment (thinking he was telling me I wasn't good enough) and he said "don't you see? You don't hate yourself. you're too apathetic about yourself. you aren't even worthy of hate, you aren't even good enough for that!"

WOW! What a  moment!

[Kwamina]

She was like a tornado... .   And we all just watched it forming and destroying us in its way. Thats the best way I can describe her. (Im NC now).

Hi cristina!

This is exactly how I describe the most brutal verbal attacks by my mother. When the Witch attacks it really does feel like a tornado, I felt completely shattered after these attacks. I've also read the book “Understanding the Borderline Mother” and it's the best book I've read about BPD so far. I've read other good books but for children of BPD parents this one really goes to the core of the matter. In your case it are your aunts, but this book can still be very helpful. I would say that my own mother's preferred state can best be characterized as a combination of Waif-Hermit. She's always playing the role of victim and is extremely controlling, often the Queen comes out and sometimes... .   the Witch... .   Then all hell breaks loose. My sister's preferred state seems to be that of a Queen with clear sadistic traits. These traits really disturb me, I can sense her pleasure in hurting people. I can actually see it in her eyes and hear it in the tone of her voice. I guess your aunts are the same.

@doubleAries

I really feel for you. My mother and sister were only Witches some of the time and this was damaging enough. Having to live with a Witch all of the time must have been nearly unbearable. I'm glad to see/read you're doing better now.

[Louise7777]

Hey DoubleAries! Amazing to see they are textbook cases, or at least somebody "labelled" that wild behaviour I saw while growing up.

Im sorry for all you have been through. Im sure that, as you said, you have your scars. But I believe you are so sane and have improved so much! About controlling the house, my aunt has always been exactly like that. She was her mom´s favourite and she allowed her everything. The others were just afraid of the rages and gave in. I firmly believe that behaviour reinforced her abuse.

Looking in retrospect, its almost funny to see how we all were un aware of the disorder: we thought she was bossy, cranky, hypocondriac, etc. But no one ever thought of her having a tough disorder. What a relief I feel now!

Kwamina, see, theres hope for us! LOL. DoubleAries is the living example.

Im not that nice, I admit, many times I wanted to turn myself into a tornado and fight back. But to avoid hurting other family members in the process, I backed off. Of course she realized no one was ever going to confront her the way she does, cause we all have morals and ethics, so that was another tool for her. Maybe one day, if Im pulled too much, I will fight back. I hope not, for her own sake, cause I wont stop until she is down. Assuming a witch goes down... .  

[Santa Clara]

Absoltuely, my BPD mother is definitely a sadist!  The label fits perfectly.  I had never heard of Sadistic personality disorder before but I just looked it up on Wiki and another piece falls into place.  Somehow it makes it easier to understand.

"Sadism involves gaining pleasure from seeing others undergo pain or discomfort."

I am so glad I read your post!  This somehow frees me from much of the guilt I have been feeling recently about an email I need to send my BPD mother in which I am establishing boundries. 

Anyway, I hope you are ok.

[Louise7777]

Hey Santa Clara! Thanks for posting! I had never heard of it either, the pieces are falling into place for me too. Thats whats great about this site, you get info and people care for you. 

[doubleAries]

Why I am so pushing of this book recommendation ("Understanding the borderline Mother" Christine Lawson) is particularly the chapter about being the child (or even niece) of a witch.

Yes, you can establish boundaries with the waif, the hermit, or the queen. It is futile with the witch!

And you cannot fight back against the witch. For 2 reasons:

(1) You are like a 5 year old in the ring with Mike Tyson--and you are going to get clobbered.

(2) if you COULD outdo the witch, then you ARE the witch.

I cannot stress this enough. If your pwBPD is a waif, hermit, or queen, and becomes a witch sometimes, there is nothing you can do with the witch but walk away, and come back when she is the waif, hermit or queen to establish your boundaries. If she is ALWAYS a witch, then you have to cut off contact.

While it was incredibly enlightening to read about these different BPD's, and to be so astounded that there was an actual template of my witch mother written out by someone who didn't know her, what was the most helpful is the chapter about make believe children and the individual chapters for the children of waifs, hermits, queens, and witches. The witch's children cannot afford to live with hate (even though it feels so incredibly justified). And it feels, to the child of a witch that hate and fear are all there really are.

Lawson explains that "although the witch is capable of evoking murderous rage, the key to survival lies in disarming, not attacking her" Disaster is certain to follow any attempt to control the witch. Adult children must not submit to the witch's demands and should exert control ONLY over their OWN behavior. The children of the witch must transcend their hatred by holding on to the belief in their own goodness. Children who seek revenge destroy their own good selves.

How do you disarm the witch? By not responding to her provocations, threats, emotional set-ups, or traps. When the witch appears, you must leave, hang up, terminate the interaction. The consequence for behavior that threatens the safety of others is to create distance.

The adult child who turns inward, away from others and the world, will never heal from the wounds of the past. There is no short cut, no recipe, no 12 step program that can heal self-hatred. There is only love. Only love can heal the wounds and scars the witch leaves behind. And so often we children of witches try to find that love from someone else, because we do not know how to give it to ourselves. But that is EXACTLY what we must learn. Nothing else will do. Nothing.

[Louise7777]

Thank you so much, DoubleAries. I read some of the book pages, they are available online. The author seems to think Joan Crawford was BPD, but its controversial, I believe. How can someone be diagnosed after death? But apart from that point, many things made a lot of sense from the little I read so far.

You are right, takes a witch to put down another witch... .   Its better to walk away. 

[doubleAries]

I don't think her point was to "diagnose" Joan Crawford, but Crawford was certainly a prime example of queen behavior.

I'm sure it was a huge relief to Joans daughter Christine to learn what exactly the parameters were of her childhood--just like it is for us, with or without a diagnosis. 

[Kwamina]

In my case, my mom is not a waif, hermit or queen. She is strictly a witch, so I had to cut off all contact with her. She's a dangerous person. I am not recommending any or everyone else do this--only if she is a truly dangerous person. NC ends the danger but doesn't do anything about your internal struggles, and how this kind of childhood has effected you and your coping skills

One thing that always comes to my mind when I think about the Witch is what Christine Lawson describes as ‘The Turn’. This is the moment you see your mother turn into something else, the moment the Witch appears. Like I said my mother and sister aren’t Witches all of the time, but the moments they were still haunt me. The rage and hate I was subjected to was unbelievable, they seemed totally out of control. Witches are very dangerous people indeed. When my uBPD family members turn into a witch they are capable of doing anything. A few days after I had first seen my sister turn into a Witch, I had a dream in which she wanted to attack me with a knife. I never had a dream like that before and had never even thought of her doing anything like that to me. However after seeing her as a Witch, I realized how dangerous she actually is and knew that she really is capable of attacking me with a knife or something else. When my mother and sister turn into a Witch the only thing on their mind seems to be my complete destruction. Growing up this witch behavior really frightened me, they weren’t witches all the time but I sure was afraid all the time of them turning into the Witch again. I was always looking for signs of an imminent ‘Turn’. I’m not that frightened anymore, I know what to do now when the Witch appears but I’m also fully aware of how dangerous they are. It’s difficult to say/admit this, but when my mom & sis turn into the Witch, they are able and willing to kill someone. That someone being me.

[doubleAries]

yes, Kwamina, you are totally right. "the Turn" indeed... .  

I know my brothers and I became hyper-vigilant individuals always looking for "the turn". We learned to read very subtle signs at all times--her eyes getting darker. The twist of a lip. Clenching of fingers. Any change in tone of voice.

So how does this effect us now? Let's all talk about this.

For myself: I know you can't spend year after year after year being hyper-vigilant without it becoming "second nature". It becomes automatic behavior that you don't even think about anymore. Does that go away, just because we grew up and moved away? Not usually.

I experience tension pain in my upper back and neck from being "on gaurd" all the time. I find myself defending, explaining, and "setting the record straight" a lot--even to people I don't need to defend myself against, explain myself to, or set the record straight with. I claim I don't care what others think of me--which is true on the conscious level. But on the defensive, explanatory, record setting straight unconscious (automatic) level, apparently I do care. A lot. Maybe even to the point that their view of me means more to me than my own view of me. otherwise I wouldn't need to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) with them. This explains poor self image--even though it is unconscious (automatic) self image views.

Anyone else? What do you find to be the "after-effects" of growing up with a sadist/witch?

[Louise7777]

Hey DoubleAries!

Im NC with the sadistic BPD relative, except for the meetings once or twice a year.

Not sure what are the effects on me nowadays when Im NC. But surely when I meet I still feel I have to watch myself. Like you and Kwamina, I  can see her change. It takes the split of a second to be "posessed" as I call it sometimes... .   (Thats why I mentioned the movie "The exorcism of Emily Rose". Even at my arrival, no word said, she looks at me with rage and "that look". I cant explain it properly in English, but its a mix of arrogance and desire to humiliate me.

Lets see how the Saturday meeting will go, I will tell you then. I guess some of her friends will be there, so she will be busy being the center of attention, although its another sibling´s birthday... .  

I cant really recognize any effects of growing up near her, maybe Im in denial. ;-)

[doubleAries]

Do keep us posted cristina!

You mention also understanding the state of hyper-vigilance. Do you ever find yourself being hyper-vigilant when you don't need to be?

I don't think of any of this as "denial" really--just automatic. We don't even notice anymore. Like auto-pilot.

Try to have relaxing fun at the party without focusing on the witch and feeding her the attention she wants!

[Louise7777]

Thanks, Double Aries!

Yes, Im hyper-vigilant when around her. In a way, Im not myself 100%, Im quiet most of the time, to avoid confrontation. But even that is no guarantee.

For years now, before meeting her, Id hear from my mom: "dont fight!". Me: "Im not fighting, Im responding to the provocation". Mom: "Then dont answer". Ok, that translated to me as "be a doormat". So, before meeting, I was already stressed cause I had to watch myself and behave in a way I didnt want to.

I believe BPDs (especially the ones with sadistic traits) are spoilt brats, people are scared of them and let them do whatever they want to avoid the fury.

Maybe what I carried until today is the idea of "being nice, no matter whats done to me". I guess that made me shy and always trying to please people. And makes it hard to set boundaries, even today. I guess I just figured it out. Thank you! 

[doubleAries]

I totally understand!

My older brother always told me "stop provoking her". WHAT? You're blaming ME for how she acts? Why do I have to coddle to her and accomodate her BS?

And that's exactly what I mean about defensiveness. She was attacking and aggressive, and I felt the need to defend myself. (Which didn't work, by the way--nothing would have. I understand that now, but didn't then. But now that behavior pattern is already ingrained in me). In retrospect, I see that I gave more credence to her criticism than I thought I did. I didn't inwardly roll my eyes and chuckle at her ludicrous behavior--I tried to defend myself without getting my head ripped off. A tightrope if ever there was one!

I think that most of this defensiveness came, not just from how she treated me, but from the rest of my family's reaction to my reaction.

Maybe they understood disarming the witch instead of engaging her a little better than I did. Either way, what all of us figured out all these years later (and I've been NC for 22 years!) is that it didn't matter WHAT we did or didn't do--we had no control over her behavior.

But even though I am no contact with her, i still find myself being defensive with people. So much so that I don't even notice (even though others sure do!)

I think a belief that comes with all this is that we either stand up for ourselves (by engaging them and defensiveness) or we become doormats. No other options. This is passive aggressive behavior. One of the "after effects" of the survival coping skills we teach ourselves as children--that just may no longer be serving us very well 

[Kwamina]

Hi again Cristina and doubleAries,

Good luck dealing with the Witch tomorrow Cristina! Expect craziness so you won't be caught off guard and don't take anything she says or does personally because her behavior is only a reflection of herself and not of you. That's what I try to do when dealing with these type of people. I believe you said you have two uBPD aunts, do they both have these sadistic characteristics or just this one?

DoubleAries, earlier you mentioned the after-effects of growing up with a sadist/witch. In my case I notice that I always expect to be attacked and still do. For instance when I get an email at work, the first time I read it I still often get mad because I believe someone is attacking or criticizing me. When I read the same email a little later it amazes me to see that there's really no attack or criticism in it. Before I would immediately respond to emails that made me feel this way but now I don't. I read them again later to see if they still make me feel the same way. I've come to realize that what I did before is an example of emotional reasoning, because I felt a certain way I thought things really were like that. Now I know that I have a tendency to do this, I try not to immediately react in situations like this. I also have severe tension and pain in my neck and shoulders as a result of all those years dealing with BPD-stress. Meditation helps me to alleviate these problems.

Another thing that got me thinking was the silent treatment. My older brother loved employing this and could keep it up for days on end. I actually never considered him BPD because he's very different from my uBPD mom&sis. After reading the comments on here about how the silent treatment relates to the borderline Witch, I'm coming to realize that my brother in fact shares many characteristics with the Witch. He always seemed to be filled with rage and hatred, that's the main reason I don't have any contact with him at all now. Haven't talked to or seen him for more than 3 years now and even before that I barely had any contact with him at all. He's a very unpleasant person to be around and I just had enough of him. I don't think he minds the NC at all though because his basic mentality always seemed to be 'I hate these people (his family) and wish they didn't exist at all'.

[Louise7777]

Hey Kwamina!

Thanks a lot for your care and advice, you and DoubleAries have been tremendously helpful!   

Only one of them has sadistic traits (histrionic and narcissistic too). The other BPD is more of queen, although at least I saw her turning into the witch when dealing with me. Maybe cause I had set a boundary and had refused to do what she wanted and then she raged... .   Then cried as an infant (!) and then raged again (and all that on the phone!). You can see she tried the 2 techniques she uses on people to get what she wants: the raging child and the helpless one.

I will keep in mind all you said, its really not abt me, its abt her. Im expecting she will be histrionic since she has an audience and wont focus on me.

I will let you know tomorrow. Thanks a lot to you both. 

[doubleAries]

hope you get this before tomorrow, cristina! This is an excellent tool for disarming the witch (without becoming a doormat! )

COMMUNICATION: Medium Chill - respond, don't react

doubleAries

[Louise7777]

Thanks DoubleAries, I was going to read it right now, but look what appears when I try to load the page:

An Error Has Occurred!

The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you.

:'(

[doubleAries]

HUNH! I'm getting that too! let me report a broken link to the admins.

Very basically, it says don't give any personal info to this person. Keep conversation simple and nonpersonal. Act as if this person were a complete stranger you'd never met before (not pretend you don't know them, but share only the kind of things you would with someone you'd just met). Let me see if I can get the link repaired right away... .  

[Louise7777]

Thats wise, dont give them ammo, cause it will be used against u sooner or later.

Ill keep trying to read the whole article, tonight or tomorrow morning. Thanks!