Want to Give Wife who has Split me Black a Hug

[Auspicious]

For legal matters, I recommend posting on our legal board.

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[VeryFree]

I will not go into the legal aspects, because that belongs on the legal board   but I recognize her behaviour. My stbxw simply doesn’t agree with any proposal of me, whether it’s a proposal for financial settlement or for exchanging stuff. She looks at my proposals and proposes something thats a 180 degrees different direction. Mostly knowing that her proposals can never be met by me. If I give in (partly) she will change her proposals in such a way I can’t agree with them anymore. After that she starts threatening with legal measures.

[BPDdaddy]

Okay, so I'm now fairly certain that she has had an affair too.  My friends who know the guy have been trying to keep me from the information because they are afraid that it will hurt me too much, but they let me know today.  How do I handle this? 

[BPDdaddy]

I honestly don't know that I can, but the problem is that I know she is going through a MLC as well.

[arabella]

Okay, so I'm now fairly certain that she has had an affair too.  My friends who know the guy have been trying to keep me from the information because they are afraid that it will hurt me too much, but they let me know today.  How do I handle this?  

How do you want to handle it? Does it make a difference in the short term? The long term? Does it change your view of the viability of reconciliation? How you handle the information really depends on what you want to accomplish. What is your goal?

I honestly don't know that I can, but the problem is that I know she is going through a MLC as well.

I'm sorry, I don't think I know that term - MLC?

As for agreements... .     My dBPDh and I have come to a few agreements over the past month or so. He generally doesn't remember the conversations (he dissociates) or, if he does, he only remembers pieces. I send him emails with the details written out, but then he doesn't remember the email is there or he can't remember why he agreed to it (b/c he can't remember the conversations - argh!) So... .   It keeps going around in circles. I can pin him down to written agreements to some degree but if we have an agreement that is missing a component (i.e. like with your car situation) then I'd have to start over again with that aspect. Verbal agreements are pretty much useless with a dysregulated pwBPD (in my experience).

[BPDdaddy]

Sorry, Mid Life Crisis.  I have hoped that she would break free from this, but it doesn't seem as though she will--she is having an affair, and I am devastated now. 

[BPDdaddy]

My goal was to bring my family back together and restore the relationship, she was so sweet and wonderful before she suddenly began to devalue me, but I really think that this whole time she was one step ahead of me.  I think she may really just not love me anymore, and in this case, I need to focus on myself and the kids and doing what I need to so that she doesn't create anymore chaos. 

[momtara]

I think that's true. People who love you and know you should help you keep going forward.  But of course it is hard to walk away from someone you cared about so much.  I am in pain, reading your posts, because I know how much pain *you* must be in.  You want that person back, the person she used to be.  That person may come back someday in the future, and love you, then hurt you again.  Who knows?  I think you have to be careful not to let her take too much advantage of you in the agreements.

I am sorry to hear about the affair.  That guy will end up being split black too, I think.

[BPDdaddy]

Even though this is difficult, it is certainly nice to have some understanding for the first time in my life.  Thank you Momtara and all the other veterans that have reached out.  Being a rookie that learned a little too late what was going on with his wife, I think it's probably harder for me than most not to regret the role that I played in this whole mess, so thanks for trying to help me find focus.  I'm bummed that I wasn't able to bit of good news to the forum, and that you guys had to be a part of the biggest roller coaster chaos that I have experienced in this whole mess so far. 

If I don't come back and post, be happy for me, it will mean that I finally figured out how to detach.  Thanks again.

[momtara]

I'm not all that much of a rookie - I figured it out maybe 2 months ago, as my marriage was crumbling!  If I'd known about BPD a year ago, I feel like I could have handled everything better... .   but I still would have had to walk on eggshells, as hubby would never believe he had a problem.

I hope you do come back, if just for support.

Your wife sounds like if not for the disease, she is a smart and good person.  I wish there would be a way for you to get through to her.  I wonder if the kids can do it, or if it's something she'll have to figure out (maybe when the affair comes crashing down).  This is just such a cruel disorder. 

But you are a good person.  There is hope for you.  I guess you just have to feel good that you have loved, and still love.  That's what's most important.

((hug))

[momtara]

I also just reread your early entries and see how you are blaming yourself by not knowing the right things to do.  There is really no way to tiptoe around enough to "save" someone like this, but you and I, and probably lots of people, think: "If only we'd just taken the right steps!"  Please don't blame yourself.  It is very hard to know the exact right dance for these situations.  Sure, you and I wish we'd known about BPD, and it might have helped in the SHORT run.  In the long run, they ahve to get the right treatment, and that is very difficult.  Or they have to somehow wake up to their verbal abuse and realize the marriage is worth saving.  But every situation is different.

[Whichwayisup]

BPDdaddy, please read my first posts,

I denied my W would ever cheat on me, your story is very similar to my experiences and there is nothing we could have done.  I am in the most tremendous pain and feel like I am grieving both her past love and my ideal future life.

It seems little comfort but there a so many similar stories that its clear that if there was a mother way, it would have been found by now... .   There'd be a cure available but alas there really isn't.  I look back and know that she told me she still loved me which gave me hope, only to recently find out she had already met her new fella, I spent a few quiet hours and thought things were getting better only to find out she then snuck off to be with him instead of her friends... .   THERE IS NOTHING YOU COULD HAVE DONE. Please do not blame yourself.  I wailed like a child tonight for over 90 mins and don't feel any better but there is a process and there is no wrong way for you... .   Let it be and remember we are all here for each other through the hope and despair.

whichwayisup

[BPDdaddy]

Okay, so nothing can happen at all where she doesn't cuss me out and call me names.  I want to say that this is just her disorder, but when there are kids involved, and even if the decision isn't hers to make she gets upset, it just seems like it is all very crazy and that there is nothing I can do to make things work again.  Do I just stop answering her calls, what do I do?  The goal is to get things as settled as I can before she creates chaos, and it seems as though whenever I make a decision for my well being that she has any control over, she creates havoc.  Where do I go from here? 

[motherof1yearold]

Good post!

BPDdaddy, I have mixed feelings about this:

My first is , I can totally relate! At times when my breakup/divorce was fresh and still questionable, I wanted to reach out and just love him. I was the only person to ever truly love him in his entire life.

(second feeling) The reason I DON'T reach out , (ESPECIALLY because I am ALSO painted black right now, blacker than black.) Is because it would feed his control , and his narcissism . It would give him an opportunity to treat me badly because I had validated him - In HIS thinking - when I come "crawling back" / wanting to love him - he is validated in the bad way he treated me and takes himself to be the victim. His thoughts are " Well If I am so bad then why are you even around me telling me you love me!"

[BPDdaddy]

I hear you, and I am at the point where I am not reaching out--I also think that the less contact with her I have the less self-destructive things she will do to herself--but when she calls, I never know whether I should pick up or not.  And when she calls back after cussing me out and hanging up, I think to myself, maybe she will be calling back to finally be reasonable--but I am always wrong.  It is strange living in a world where I feel like I can't even do things for my own good before she files the separation agreement, because if I do, all hell will break loose.  And it doesn't make it any easier that I am trying to pull my mind together and study for finals.  Sometimes you wish, because she has cut off anyone who knows me and will reason with her, that God, a mythological figure, or someone with bigger than life capabilities, would just float down from the clouds and talk some sense into her. 

[BPDdaddy]

And the craziest thing about it all is that I haven't lost my cool during any of the arguments, and apparently now I need to be ridiculed for using a "politician voice" that makes me sound like an "idiot" and a "dick head" and all sorts of other things that I can't say here.  I feel like my wife was lost, and I was given a teen aged daughter with a bad attitude--who would have thought this is what I was signing up for 7 and 1/2 years ago when I married her? 

[motherof1yearold]

She notices the change of your voice and what you allow to go on... . she is threatened. She can  sense and realize she is losing control, and that is very threatening to a BPD person.

[ForeverDad]

I had to let go of the idea of fixing or controlling anything that my wife did.

Hard to say. I don't think you can really predict the outcome of what she will do... .  

Time to take the focus off of her and focus on what you do have control over: you.

I also just reread your early entries and see how you are blaming yourself by not knowing the right things to do.  There is really no way to tiptoe around enough to "save" someone like this, but you and I, and probably lots of people, think: "If only we'd just taken the right steps!"  Please don't blame yourself.  It is very hard to know the exact right dance for these situations.  Sure, you and I wish we'd known about BPD, and it might have helped in the SHORT run.  In the long run, they have to get the right treatment, and that is very difficult.  Or they have to somehow wake up to their verbal abuse and realize the marriage is worth saving.  But every situation is different.

So many here, myself included, had kept looking back and were so convinced in the feeling "If only I had... .   "  I recall feeling like I was fighting some opponent blindfolded and in the dark, not knowing what strategy to use in my struggle against an unseen foe adversary just out of reach.  (Turned out our adversary is a person driven by mental illness, not enough to trigger incarceration but enough to ruin the relationships.)  But the reality is that quite likely there was literally nothing we could have done, we were watching a train wreck happening and no one could stop it.  Accept that you did your reasonable best.  Sure, you look back and see some things could have been done to trigger your spouse less.  But she was still like a freight train with immense inertia heading toward a crash, a little less triggering or a little more focus in other ways probably wouldn't have been enough to divert the disaster.

And speaking of hugs, near the end my spouse didn't want to be touched.  Love morphed into four-letter-word sexx, dangled like a carrot rarely and only when she wanted something.

Yep, so good news yesterday can only mean bad news today.  The roller coaster begins again... .     So she has now reversed her position, she now wants the car too, and wants for me to finance another.  When I reminded her that she was the one who committed to purchasing her own car, she began to cuss me out for not agreeing to what was now the "best solution."  I had to tell her that I couldn't continue speaking with her if she was going to continue calling me names, and hung up when she wouldn't stop doing so.

I suppose that divorce agreements with women who have BPD usually end with lawyers involved, don't they? ... .   Man, this is frustrating. 

In any case, I suppose I really need to detach emotionally from the relationship at this point.  You all were right.  Divorce is real, and if it is going to happen, I can't allow myself to be a doormat.

Boundaries are crucial.  It took years for us to eventually learn that acquiescing, feeling sorry for them and willing to be a doormat only enabled worse behaviors.

Having boundaries though, doesn't mean it's easy sailing.  It's like being a seawall along the ocean.  The ocean will be forever pounding against the seawall, maybe not all the time, but there will always be storms and the pounding.  We have to be like the seawall, reasonable but firm, not just for ourselves but also for the children and their future.

I will not go into the legal aspects, because that belongs on the legal board   but I recognize her behaviour. My stbxw simply doesn’t agree with any proposal of me, whether it’s a proposal for financial settlement or for exchanging stuff. She looks at my proposals and proposes something that's a 180 degrees different direction. Mostly knowing that her proposals can never be met by me. If I give in (partly) she will change her proposals in such a way I can’t agree with them anymore. After that she starts threatening with legal measures.

This is called the Moving Goal Post pattern.  What team can ever make a touchdown if every time they get near the goal post the other team moves it?

In mediation and other types of negotiation, you can't afford to be nice or generous.  It won't be reciprocated and any concessions will be met by more demands, especially if 'weakness' is sensed.

Okay, so I'm now fairly certain that she has had an affair too.  My friends who know the guy have been trying to keep me from the information because they are afraid that it will hurt me too much, but they let me know today.  How do I handle this?

How do you want to handle it? Does it make a difference in the short term? The long term? Does it change your view of the viability of reconciliation? How you handle the information really depends on what you want to accomplish. What is your goal?

I can pin him down to written agreements to some degree but if we have an agreement that is missing a component (i.e. like with your car situation) then I'd have to start over again with that aspect. Verbal agreements are pretty much useless with a dysregulated pwBPD (in my experience).

Sad as it is to learn about her affair, there are two things to keep in mind.

One is that people with BPD are known to jump quickly from one relationship to the next.  Perhaps she sensed somehow that the relationship was fizzling and so she prepped the next guy, moving you to the back burner.  It's been commented here that their greatest fear is abandonment and that they'll abandon/reject the spouse before the spouse even thinks about abandoning them.  Ponder that.  They fear abandonment but will abandon to avoid abandonment.  If that isn't circular logic and a cognitive distortion... .  

The other is that you were just talking about the prospect of divorce.  That means you each would soon be living your own lives largely separate from the other except for the parenting issues.  Yes, she jumped the gun but apparently you were still holding out a desperate last chance hope of reconciliation?  Sadly, realistically, unless she faces and seriously works and improves at least some of her issues on a long term basis, reconciliation would just put you back on the roller coaster again.  That's what realistic reconciliation would have to require.  And as was already stated here, she would have to do it for herself, you can't do it for her.

As for the cussing, that happened to me too.  It got worse over time.  Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse, then it got even more worse.  Near the End it was crushing.  Disrespect to the nth degree, calling me Satan the Devil, Judas Iscariot, the worst cuss words she could remember, saying I had cancer in my genitals, etc.

In some ways I have to see it as boundary pushing and challenging.  She just had to see how far my boundaries could be pushed.  And pushed some more.  And I finally accepted that I was Pushed Out, driven away.

[VeryFree]

This is called the Moving Goal Post pattern.  What team can ever make a touchdown if every time they get near the goal post the other team moves it?

In mediation and other types of negotiation, you can't afford to be nice or generous.  It won't be reciprocated and any concessions will be met by more demands, especially if 'weakness' is sensed.

Moving Goal Post pattern. I like that one: it exactly discribes what is going on and I recognize it from all over the r/s.

When trying to get involved with her therapy, she demanded that I went to a T myself. After I did she didn't want to come together, because I was only interested in my own problems... .  

When making agreements about doing work in the house (besides my fulltime job, while she was 100% unemployed) it started out with approx 25%, but when that went okay she demanded it would be 50%. Meaning I would come home about 7 pm, cook dinner and do my housework knowing that I would leave again to work at 5.30 am. And also knowing things would be very dirty again the next day (too dirty for normal use).

And more... .  

In some ways I have to see it as boundary pushing and challenging.  She just had to see how far my boundaries could be pushed.  And pushed some more.  And I finally accepted that I was Pushed Out, driven away.

I recognize this one. Pushing boundaries. It seemed that my stbxw exactly knew how to trigger me. Over time my boudaries became wider and I did reacted less, resulting in more extreme behaviour from her side.

[BPDdaddy]

The crazy part is that with kids involved, no major long term legal decisions decided (except for custody issues), and her doing the moving goal post thing, I feel like I need to stop the bleeding where I can in order to gain some sort of stability in this whole mess and get her to move out of the apartment that I am renting so that I can structure life for the kids.  I know that I can fight this legally, through a lawyer, if I want to, but the damage that the kids are taking in the meantime is my biggest concern.  To me this has been worth the concessions that I have made so far, but I'm waiting to see--at this point--what her next move will be (I don't think that she turned the mediation agreement in yet). 

[briefcase]

I liked ForeverDad's "seawall" analogy for boundaries in your situation.  Standing strong and impassive, regardless of what the ocean is doing.

With kids involved it makes sense to be calm, strong and reasonable right now.  Do you still want to try to work on the relationship?  Or do you think its time to work on detaching and moving on?

[BPDdaddy]

She is so different now, and seems to loathe me so much, that I feel that I have to detach in order to focus on more healthy aspects of my life.  When she senses that I haven't emotionally detached, she creates more chaos.  Because we have not entirely detached the physical aspect of our life yet, though, she seems to try to create chaos wherever she has control over my ability to make decisions in this sense as well.  It is an anxiety ridden experience to have to show up and see the children now, and I am trying my best to get us through to where she at least has her own place, I have mine, and we no longer have to share vehicles. 

The problem: she got caught up in the wrong crowd, and now that she has isolated herself from most of her good friend, the wrong crowd outweighs the good--she has suddenly become a foul mouthed, clubbing, exercise fanatic that seems to be on the verge of abandoning the children, which may be good seeing that she can barely take care of herself now.  The saddest part about this all is that who she is becoming to our children is the exact person (her mom--who abandoned her) that she resented for causing all of her pain as a child.  It's like watching Anakin Skywalker become Darth Vader, except for that it's not entertaining when it happens in real life. 

[VeryFree]

The problem: she got caught up in the wrong crowd, and now that she has isolated herself from most of her good friend, the wrong crowd outweighs the good--she has suddenly become a foul mouthed, clubbing, exercise fanatic that seems to be on the verge of abandoning the children, which may be good seeing that she can barely take care of herself now.  The saddest part about this all is that who she is becoming to our children is the exact person (her mom--who abandoned her) that she resented for causing all of her pain as a child.  It's like watching Anakin Skywalker become Darth Vader, except for that it's not entertaining when it happens in real life. 

I know what you mean: exactly the same thing was going on in my home. My stxw had broken with her mum because she hated the way she lived. Thereby she was blamed her for destroying her youth.

Now she is the spitting image of her mother.

[Whichwayisup]

Pretty much everything ForeverDad said to you applies to me, even the hugs falling off during the last 3 weeks, mine had changed demeanour and is simply not the same person I knew as recently as 4 weeks ago me when I was trying to validate and use the tools, all to no avail... .   Mine is now seemingly trying to provoke me with unreasonable behaviours by keeping the kids away from me but not actually looking after them, even tho its holidays here, tomorrow my S15 is in school for revision all day, so D3 will be in nursery and she has arranged for D10 to help at the nursery, I have been trying really hard not to react to provocation, its uncanny how this plays out. 

My saving grace is that I have the house and am making it a tranquil place for the kids when they visit me... .   I think it's only a matter of time until I get to see them more, she is also seemingly more untested in clubbing and meeting up with friends that want to go out and meet other men and have lots of drama... .   The family life, I can deal with quite fine... .   In many ways it feels like I am in the process of becoming a widower by proxy... .     Similarly, the change in tone for my voice as matter of fact has been accused of being shouting... .   Couldn't be further from the truth... .  

[BPDdaddy]

Totally understand you.  My wife was accusing me of shouting before all of this fall out, and the only thing I was guilty of at the time was trying to clearly reason with her.  Now that I am validating her feelings, while not accepting blame for the things that I shouldn't--the very thing that she wanted in the first place--she will call me names, at which point I will say "let's not do this in front of the kids", to which she will respond by telling me that my request is abusive--why?  Well apparently abuse is also a quite thing, and is done through sly manipulations--meaning, anything I have to say that is contrary to what she wants to happen. 

My question is: how long does the insanity last?  When do does a woman with BPD finally give a guy a break on this splitting black thing?  I thought it was bad as we were going through the winter depression and devaluation phase, but now it is literally insane.  And the tone in her voice when she calls me names makes me think that she is going to go on an axe murdering spree or something.  Does the "black" phase ever stop?  That I will eventually see some light coming from the dark, dark, place that she is in is all that I wonder about now--not hope for my marriage, not hope for friendship, just a hope to finally deal with person that resembles a sane person for the kids sake. 

[ForeverDad]

How long does the insanity last?  I've been out 7 years.  Sometimes my ex is okay, but not for long and usually that means she's under scrutiny by an evaluator or upcoming hearing or she wants something.  I still get cursed out, raged at, threatened with police or court every so often.  Last year I stopped doing sleepovers for my kid after she threatened the other parents with police in the driveway and taking them to court.  The parent called me, shocked and nearly in tears.  What parent wants even a slight risk of flashing lights in the driveway?  So my son doesn't get sleepovers - and GAL didn't care.  I'm hoping court will give her a lecture about it but I'm not holding my breath.  In over 7 years, my court lectured only once and it was only about her taking son on vacation without a written notice.

I'm not trying to be negative.  Just saying you can't count on a return to the early days.  Odds are low for that unless she really and truly seeks out professional help and changes for the better.

[Auspicious]

That I will eventually see some light coming from the dark, dark, place that she is in is all that I wonder about now--

You can't change anything that she does.

She's going to do whatever she's going to do.

Think of her more like the weather now ... .   you can hope for good weather, of course, but nothing you do can influence the weather.

You can decide what are going to wear, what precautions you are going to take, etc. And you need to make those decisions - it's foolish to ignore what the weather actually is and looks to be, on the basis of merely hoping for different weather.

[BPDdaddy]

Its amazing how clearly you all can explain things through parables and poetry.  You guys are awesome. 

[BPDdaddy]

Last ditch attempt to hold on here guys:

(1) So despite the fact that my wife resembles Darth Vader now, how realistic is it to think that I can eventually reconcile my relationship with my wife, and is it even safe now that I know that I have become her trigger and she doesn't ever let these emotions go? 

(2) We were young, and in a way, we were both innocent.  Now that she has had an affair and become Ke$ha, that innocence will be lost (she always said that she could never forgive an affair).  When a person changes this much, from good, studious, wholesome mommy and into a party girl, is it ever possible to think that she will be that wonderful mother that she used to be again? 

I've read the stories about reconciliation, but I'm not sure that I have seen one where a person who has been able to reconcile after watching their loved one completely change (which I do want to say is the BPD, though it's hard to do anymore). 

Just yesterday, I felt as though I had detached.  But then this morning happened: I really thought that when I opened my eyes, my wife would be there next to me again, our son barging through the door to wake us up at 6am--everything balanced and right in the world again.  I've either got to know that somehow the Ke$ha/Vader phase does pass, or put a nail in the coffin for good for my own sanity. 

[arabella]

I've either got to know that somehow the Ke$ha/Vader phase does pass, or put a nail in the coffin for good for my own sanity. 

So here's the problem - no one is going to be able to answer the questions you've asked. It depends on the person. She might revert back; she might not. You might be able to work through a reconciliation, or you might not (a lot of that depends on you too). I can tell you this much, you can't count on her to revert back and you can't count on her to stay on the side of the Jedi even if she does go back. Everything to do with her is completely unpredictable. So it all comes down to you and what you want or are willing to deal with:

(1) Can you reconcile with your wife knowing what she is capable of? What does 'safe' mean to you? There are no guarantees and, even if she stabilizes now, she could very well turn to the dark side again at any time - can you handle that? Are you willing to deal with it?

(2) This new "party girl" was always a part of her, you just didn't see it before. And that "wonderful mother" is still in there too. It's all the same person. Package deal. How do you feel about living with that?