Liking myself v narcissism

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I think I do know I have good qualities. I think I struggle celebrating them in myself because I hated my father's narcissism. I hated the way he could never see anybody else's point of view and was always utterly self centred. I hated the way he would end any discussion / argument with "You don't know what you're talking about". I hated the way he talked down to everybody unless they were connected to academia or connected in a way he thought mattered. I hated the way he judged people for their academic achievements or their job rather than just who they were as a person.

I'm confident. I'm funny. I'm intelligent. I'm attractive. I empathise with others and I'm good at listening. These are things I want in a potential partner and I realise I won't allow myself to meet them in a partner until I can get back to them with myself.

I'm so sacred of being narcissistic it makes me feel physically uncomfortable saying those things. I do think I believe them. I just hate looking like I do. Because looking like I do might be also be seen as a judgement on others. I don't think I'm special, I don't think I'm better. I do think I'm unique. I do think I have some narcissistic traits that can be pulled out and enhanced given the right circumstances but I've fought them all my life.

BPDex made me feel special and triangulated me with others. This fed the narcissist in me. But I need to stop focusing on the negative stuff. I got out of my relationship with BPDex relatively early. I didn't like the narcissistic side it brought up but it wasn't necessarily all bad and all narcissism. It was recognition of my good qualities and I need to get back to recognising them again too.

I'm OK. I'm doing OK. I'm about to start group therapy and I'm wondering if the most important thing to focus on might be finding a healthy way to like myself.

[maria1]

I think I do know I have good qualities. I think I struggle celebrating them in myself because I hated my father's narcissism. I hated the way he could never see anybody else's point of view and was always utterly self centred. I hated the way he would end any discussion / argument with "You don't know what you're talking about". I hated the way he talked down to everybody unless they were connected to academia or connected in a way he thought mattered. I hated the way he judged people for their academic achievements or their job rather than just who they were as a person.

I'm confident. I'm funny. I'm intelligent. I'm attractive. I empathise with others and I'm good at listening. These are things I want in a potential partner and I realise I won't allow myself to meet them in a partner until I can get back to them with myself.

I'm so sacred of being narcissistic it makes me feel physically uncomfortable saying those things. I do think I believe them. I just hate looking like I do. Because looking like I do might be also be seen as a judgement on others. I don't think I'm special, I don't think I'm better. I do think I'm unique. I do think I have some narcissistic traits that can be pulled out and enhanced given the right circumstances but I've fought them all my life.

BPDex made me feel special and triangulated me with others. This fed the narcissist in me. But I need to stop focusing on the negative stuff. I got out of my relationship with BPDex relatively early. I didn't like the narcissistic side it brought up but it wasn't necessarily all bad and all narcissism. It was recognition of my good qualities and I need to get back to recognising them again too.

I'm OK. I'm doing OK. I'm about to start group therapy and I'm wondering if the most important thing to focus on might be finding a healthy way to like myself.

[Want2know]

I just read a bit about this topic here: www.ecap.crc.illinois.edu/eecearchive/books/selfe/distinct.html

Basically, one of the differences between having a healthy self-esteem vs. being narcissistic seems to stem from ones avoidance of coping with negative feedback (regarding oneself) and the amount of energy spent on "managing the impression one makes on others", which is part of the definition of narcissism, according to this article.

Do you feel this relates to what you are describing, or do you think that you are able to assimilate negative feedback appropriately?

[maria1]

I think I take on negative feedback and try to act upon it. If I split that into the areas of work, parenting and relationships I think I've got better at this as i've got older. I see it as becoming more emotionally mature.

I don't excel at work, I do OK and think I do a good job. Praise isn't easy for me to hear but I accept it. I haven't had much of it in the jobs I've done in the last few years but I haven't had much negative feedback either. I've been told to speed up and I've tried hard to. I've been thanked by my clients and I've appreciated that.

As a parent I get feedback from my kids at times that's negative! They give me positive feedback too of course. They are kids and I don't look to them for feedback but I do try to listen to what they are telling me. My friends have been telling me I do a good job in the face of some difficult stuff recently and I've tried to listen to that. That's more because I don't know the answer than because I think I'm no good at it though.

In relationships I think I try to take on both positive and negative feedback. BPD ex was a bit confusing (obviously) but I did listen to the negative stuff he said. He said some negative stuff constructively I think. He told me I was too hard on myself.

I don't spend a lot of effort achieving stuff. I'm not an achiever. I don't care if I make the best cake or my kids look the best or come top. I sometimes make an effort to look bad cos I get so sick of everybody sitting around competing with themselves. I see narcissism everywhere. I won't talk about my achievements and I'll undersell myself rather than oversell.

The most common feedback I get from people is not to beat myself up about stuff. I actually think I don't really care so much what other people think. But I do seem to criticise myself a lot.

[arabella]

I hated the way he could never see anybody else's point of view and was always utterly self centred. I hated the way he would end any discussion / argument with "You don't know what you're talking about". I hated the way he talked down to everybody unless they were connected to academia or connected in a way he thought mattered. I hated the way he judged people for their academic achievements or their job rather than just who they were as a person.

I think this bit ^ is the key. Narcissism isn't about liking yourself or being proud of your own accomplishments - those things are healthy. Narcissism is about making those things the only things that matter. It's a huge problem when you devalue others in order to feel better about yourself. Or if you believe that everything somehow relates back to you. Or if you can't admit and accept your own faults or failures (hey, no one can 'win' all of the time!)

Getting compliments/praise should make you feel good! Being acknowledged and appreciated for your positive qualities is healthy - it's not "feeding the narcissist". You've earned those things. There is nothing wrong with trying to achieve things so long as you can accept not being 'the best' and you aren't relying on outside validation of those achievements. Do things because you want to, because they make you feel good and positively contribute to your world. I think that, so long as your happiness isn't coming at someone else's expense, you aren't in danger of becoming a narcissist.

[maria1]

But I think it's working against me. I think I'm scared to like myself because of it. I think it works against me and makes me scared to achieve my potential in a relationship. So I will keep going for men who are going to reflect back to me somewhere bwlow what I'd like to be. I'm confident but I end up with under confident men who are attracted to my confidence. I don't look down on them for being under confident- I think they are capable of confidence. I put my faith in their capabilities. Really i should be looking for a confident partner, an equal. Just typing that makes me feel narcissistic!

[Want2know]

I'm not sure I see your conflict clearly regarding narcissism.  What narcissistic quality, using some of the descriptions, for example, from DSM IV are you thinking you are demonstrating?

[maria1]

I don't think it makes sense. I think my father hated himself really but had no ability to self examine.

I self examine too much at times but know full well we can all live happily in denial.

It's not about the dsm definition, its more about me being terrified that I must be like him. I see narcissistic traits in him and I have been in codependent relationships. I didn't see my codependency. My father didn't see his narcissism. We all know narcissism/ codependency seem to be linked but I don't see myself in the dsm definition of narcissism and my codependency isn't as marked as it could be. Maybe I need to do a proper inventory against the dsm and against the cd stuff.

Thank you- ill have a proper look at it.

[laelle]

I can see what you mean here, but I dont find you to be in the least narcissistic.  There is nothing wrong with noticing good things about yourself and hoping that others may appreciate those qualities.

I lost over 200 lbs.  I use to tell my ex, arent I beautiful?  He would tell me that "self flattery is no flattery at all."  I disagree.

A narcissistic will always try to steal your sunshine.

[OTH]

I may be projecting but we seem to have many of the same problems. Don't your narcissistic traits revolve around your desire to fix other's problems? From reading your thoughts for some time this is where I see  your narcissistic traits lie. What you are describing in this thread sounds more like a self esteem problem. A I have to settle for whatever I get rather then chosing a better partner for my needs type of problem. I went through an upbringing of never being good enough. I accept not good enough and don't feel right unless I am working at being understood by people who don't accept me and appreciate me. I am trying to meet my emotional needs in a healthy way now. Better filter who I bring in and try to get beyond some problems with my mother. My father is a lost cause and uBPD most likely.

[Phoenix.Rising]

Maria,  Do you think some of the reason you are attracted to men who look to you for confidence is to maintain a false sense of control?  Or maybe fear of having a relationship with someone you felt more equal to in that sense?  I've wondered this about myself.  I think the more we learn to love ourselves, the more comfortable we will become with desiring that confident partner.  I agree, it is hard to look at and talk about.   

Part of the unhealthy attraction for me is getting something out of being with someone I think I can somehow fix or save.  I do have genuine care, but I also think there is a perverse need to feel in control.  This is where the codependence and narcissistic traits creep in, and the reality is that I am out of control in these types of relationships. 

I think most people on this forum probably have some N traits (whether they realize it or not) because it is proven that N traits often pair with BPD traits.  I don't think you are NPD, though.  I wouldn't worry too much about that, Maria, but rather keep focusing on how you can take care of you and be good to you.  I believe I understand your fear, though.   

[laelle]

Maria,  :)o you think some of the reason you are attracted to men who look to you for confidence is to maintain a false sense of control?  Or maybe fear of having a relationship with someone you felt more equal to in that sense?  I've wondered this about myself.  I think the more we learn to love ourselves, the more comfortable we will become with desiring that confident partner.  I agree, it is hard to look at and talk about.    

Part of the unhealthy attraction for me is getting something out of being with someone I think I can somehow fix or save.  I do have genuine care, but I also think there is a perverse need to feel in control.  This is where the codependence and narcissistic traits creep in, and the reality is that I am out of control in these types of relationships.  

I think most people on this forum probably have some N traits (whether they realize it or not) because it is proven that N traits often pair with BPD traits.  I don't think you are NPD, though.  I wouldn't worry too much about that, Maria, but rather keep focusing on how you can take care of you and be good to you.  I believe I understand your fear, though.    

Nicely said.  

I have this too... .   Part of the unhealthy attraction for me is getting something out of being with someone I think I can somehow fix or save.  I do have genuine care, but I also think there is a perverse need to feel in control.  This is where the codependence and narcissistic traits creep in, and the reality is that I am out of control in these types of relationships.

[marbleloser]

Do you apologize if you're wrong about something? Do you stop and examine yourself if someone says something you don't agree with? Do you see that you're wrong in some situations and that it's not everyone else that's wrong?

If you answer yes to these,I doubt you're N.A N is never wrong,never apologizes,and never examines themselves.There's no need.They're perfect in their own opinion,and others don't deserve an apology.

Liking yourself and being comfortable in your own skin doesn't make you a N.

[maria1]

Yes to all those questions and seem to do so a little too much- hence the beating myself up about stuff. Thinking lots about what everybody has posted here. Loads of food for thought. Thinking over past relationships and the control stuff, thinking if it has to maybe do with black and white thinking more than narcissism. A therapist once asked me if I'm an all or nothing type of person and that really for me thinking. But I'm also vet found at getting others to see the grey!

I know I want answers! Thats about control. Going to keep thinking. Thanks so much everybody. Going to think and read over everybody's posts a few more times and ponder some more.

[arabella]

Just as another thinking point - a lot of people with NPD actually have low self-esteem. They can be very self-critical. The key there is that they try to bring everyone else down to below their level. It isn't their feelings about themselves that is the true issue, it's their behaviour towards others. Constantly putting others down or criticizing them to make oneself feel/look better - that's true narcissism. Always needing to be 'superior' or 'better' than everyone else.

maria1 - you may have control issues, I could see how that could easily flow from living with an NPD father, but that doesn't sound like a personality disorder to me. I think it's amazing that you're questioning yourself and trying to grow as you learn - that's some really hard work!

[Maryiscontrary]

Dear Maria,

Maybe this perspective may help you. All narcissists wear a social mask, and as a result, may not get undestorted feedback from the environment. Let me ask you... .   is your behavior consistent with everybody... .   would your kids have about the same description of your temperament as your good friends, as in people at work?

If the answer is yes, them you are not a narcissist. A narcissist will portray a very different self to family than to acquaintances. I think this is where BPD had N traits... .   the masks. The great pretenders.

I will tell you I have an Eddie Murphy style dr  Doolittle Duality. However, I don't make efforts to present one face to one person and another to another person. The people close to me see both.

It is a defense mechanism triggered by fatigue, as to keep some semblance of social

Continuity. I mean, I have to deal with clients, and I have to interact with people when I am exhausted or greiving badly, so they get the lower more primative buddy love state.

So I think that this is a nuts and bolts of real narcissm. My brother puts on a show for what he thinks people want to see, and I put on a show, so that the show does not stop in mid plot.

[maria1]

No I don't put on a show for anybody but I don't think my dad did either. It's something that gets to me, any sort of pretence for out and about. I think that must be so tiring.

I don't swear and i am more respectful in certain situations but thats about it. My fathers children hated me saying what I thought, acting how I was at all times, even if that meant I was pissed off with him in public at times. I'd probably go more that way than do social niceties very well.

[maria1]

Thanks everybody. You folks are amazing.

OK so I don't think I'm a narcissist and I think what I need to do is go with the idea that liking myself is OK. Liking myself is something I actually used to like about myself, then I started realising just how flawed my father was and I think i started to see my own flaws more. That has all got mixed up together and then BPD r/s happened too.

I think I also need to factor in the effects of the relationship with my children's father. He could be pretty abusive at times and I think that's stuck pretty deep. He would say I was a drama queen when actually I was just reacting normally to abnormal situations. But if there is any truth anywhere in any nastiness that people tell me I easily believe it. I can over react to things. My father ALWAYS told me I was 'over sensitive' as a child.

SO... .   I don't think my father is NPD. I do think he has narc traits. I think I have some borderline ones and some CD ones. If you compare CD and borderline PD they look amazingly similar. I over empathise.

If I could neatly fit all this into boxes it would be easier and I do think I have a drive to do that. It's not exactly black and white thinking, more a need to classify so that I can fix, CD stuff I suppose.

In my r/s with kids father I got thoroughly sick of wanting to change him. I don't think I was as CD as could be. I would, for example ask if we could do something that needed doing, eg. fix the roof. He would say yeah, yeah. I would wait, and wait. I would say, hey shall we get the roof fixed. It would be great if you arranged it and not me this time. he would say yeah, yeah. I would wait, and wait. Water starts pouring in the roof, I get it fixed and  he's pissed off with me for not letting him get on with it. I lived with the consequences of him never wanting to take action. He has a strange aversion to taking action on anything.

So I left that r/s and decided I'd never hope for change in someone again. Along comes Mr Great with Kids and I'll Put Your Shelves UP and Fix Your Roof. He moves in, puts up 2 shelves, gives up work and sits around gaming all week. I moved him out within 6 months.

I feel like I run screaming from CD relationships these days. With BPD r/s I don't think I was very CD. I didn't know anything about BPD when I was in it. I did allow myself to be manipulated but I didn't wnat him to change. I didn't want to control him or the r/s. I loved the fact that he was strong and stood up to me. He loved the fact that I stood up to him. His ex wife sounded NPD and their dance was classic BPD/ NPD, constantly.

Anyway I definitely have CD traits mostly, some BP traits, some narc traits, but I do have quite a few Maria1 traits. I can work on the stuff that's hard and not good for me and those around me. I really do want to like myself though. All in all I'm OK

[marbleloser]

"All in all I'm OK"

[maria1]

Thanks MB   It's funny- just reading that in your post made me flinch a little. I'm going to keep saying it I think 

[marbleloser]

You're welcome 

[Phoenix.Rising]

You are definitely OK! 

It struck me that your father told you you were overly sensitive.  This is invalidating, and it tells the child that expressing emotion is not ok.  I was a sensitive child, like you, and I was often afraid to express my emotion due to possible angry reaction from my father.  Hence, I learned to stuff my feelings.  Well, I ended up learning to medicate those feelings with alcohol, etc.

I'm glad you are talking about your feelings now.  Expressing yourself is another way of liking yourself, I believe.  You are giving yourself permission to be you!   

Take care.

[Maryiscontrary]

Maria, I would not say you are narcissist. From what I can tell, you have been programmed from foo to tolerate crappy behavior and to have porous borders. Which is really great news, since it is not aggressive, delusional, immormal, or obnoxious behavior. It sounds like a lot of stuff could be solved by just immaculate attention to boundary building. So yes, codependency, even though it is a loaded word. But not screw loose.

[maria1]

Thanks Phoenix and Mary

Its funny but I never stopped expressing my emotions. My friends have valued that in me and I still value that in myself. I tend to over share them though and that goes into the realms of letting the boundaries down I suppose too.

And I have tended to end up in relationships with men who weren't do good at expressing their emotions I guess. But BPDex sure made up for that!

This website is an amazing place. You people give me so much.

Thank you x

[TeaAmongRoses]

Hi Maria!

My mom has narcissitic traits and I worry about being like her too. I feel like I can relate to how you relate to your dad and I definitely am worried at times about my own issues too. But searching for answers I think is healthy as seeking to feel better and be a good person is a really great instinct to follow!

I wonder about the self-esteem issues that can arise from having narcissistic parents. For example, when our parents are narcissistic and their needs get in the way of nurturing and validating their kids, I think their kids end up with self-esteem issues because they were, in a way, negleced emotionally. If thats the case, then you are struggling with this because you need to learn self-love as an adult becaue you weren't taught self love from your parents loving you in a totally healthy way. Thus, the searching. Also, I see neglect as kind of similar to abuse. It leaves the child with low self esteem because they FEEL unworthy because they weren't shown that they were lovable by their parents who were too self-absorbed. Thus, we grow up with self-esteem issues not because we're inherently flawed or unlovable, but because we weren't given the unconditional love from our parents that would have been better to have.

I have what I call "conditioning". I have thoughts that I'm unworthy that aren't really my own thoughts but really I picked them up from my narcissistic mother. When I go around her now, as an adult, I get really sick from overwhelming feelings of inadequacy. But my husband says that's silly because I'm a really good person, more successful,kinder, accomplished, etc than she was at my age. I own my own home, take care of other people's children, have an excellent job, have my own car. See, most of my feelings of inadequacy relate to material success as that is her most serious insecurity. But I've made good, responsible decisions and am well positioned. But I think I'm terrible because my bathroom is dusty,and the dishes are on the counter... .   etc. etc... . I've picked up her negative self-talk and it is just not serving me well.

Thus, I've taken to trying to practice mindfulness. The idea is to identify the feeling, write it down and then consider it rationally. Like "I'm no good". "Oh, really? that's interesting. According to who?" And I realize it is her judgement that is dominating in my mind and her opinion really doesn't amount to a hill of beans according to what I think is really important in life.

I wonder if practicing mindfulness might help you shed some of your negative conditioning too. Peace, Tea

[maria1]

Thank you Tea

Yes- everything you say resonates with me. I am getting better with remembering to be mindful. I give myself a break all the time these days. My mother wasn't happy and neither was my father and I saw that clearly for myself from a young age. That helped me to get an idea that the thoughts I have are not right. My training as a mental health nurse started me on a journey of self examination which was helpful I think.

It's an ongoing struggle. Thank you so much

[laelle]

I lived with my mom about 8 years back and my mom did not want me there.  She had a party with all her "girlfriends" and she asked me not to come and to stay in my room until it was over.  About 30 minutes into the party I could hear her friends asked her "Where is your daughter?, I thought she would be here." "I bet your excited about being a grandmother again."  "Oh yes, im so looking forward to it, let me go get her"  She comes into the bedroom and says that I am now allowed to come and join her party because she wants me there.  I swear to goodness, if there wasnt Rotel Dip there I would have told her where to shove it.    It wouldnt have done any good anyway, she doesnt understand how she hurts.

I think this is an example of NPD  As I said before, I do not think you are NPD. 

[MaybeSo]

We can certainly have struggles narcissism or dependency issues without having a full blow DSM personality disorder! From what I've learned here in five years and from seeing myself and my siblings... .   we can really struggle with a lot of FOO stuff that impacts our lives and relationships without coming close to EVER meeting the criteria for a full blown personality disorder.  

My dad in no way meets the criteria for a NPD diagnoses, but he was very codependent and that can have a narcissistic (self absorbed) flavor.  For example, he left my mom when us kids were little to have an affair and eventually marry another very self absorbed younger woman.  (only affair he ever had as far as I know).  The woman he married is pretty high funtioning but also lots of NPD/BPD stuff going on with her, very emotionally immature though a high funtioning professor,  a real high strung gal.  My dad was so preoccupied with his codpenedent stance with this woman, that his own kids were basically just footnotes in his life during our whole time growing up!   His entire life has been preoccupied with this crazy, fragile, difficult woman. He sacraficed a lifes-worth of time he could have had with his children, to attend to Ms. Crazy.

Now, if he were on this site, with some introspection and work he would be perhaps seeing how codepenent he has been and would see himself along the lines of a long suffering, caregiving,  codependent type.  From MY point of view, his precoccupation with making sure his crazy girlfriend is attended to at all times at the expense of his own kids, is pretty danm self absorbed and narcissistic.  He had NO empathy whatsoever or insight, into the impact his choices made on us as kids.  That kind of focused codependent stance with another adult means your life becomes so narrowly focused that others get ignored or disrgarded, even your own children! So intense was his need to make sure his crazy gf is pampered and coddled that he didn't really care about his own kids and had no curiosity at all about what this was like for us! Of course no amount of coddling and pampering and fixing makes his crazy gf a happier person, it's never enough,  so he actually sent the message to us kids for years and years now that IF WE would just embrace his crazy gf more, and do nice things for her etc,  then his crazy gf would be happier!  So we worked for years trying to be nice to his crazy gf, never complaining that hey, we'd kind of like to have some of your attention, too, dad!   It wasn't until years of therpay that I realized I'm not responsible for making his crazy gf happy!  This woman helped break up my family and I'm asked to work hard to make HER feel happy?  We were afraid to complain because if we did, we feared we would see even less of him!  (So, we never learned to have boundaries).  You are looking at a very codependent dynamic, but acutally its extremely self centered, self focused, and narcisstistic in it's overall impact.  No, my dad does not meet the criteria for NPD, but he has some serious issues and blindspots,  that is for sure. My upbringing in this dynamic has led to me having some issues, too, and I see my siblings struggle with some of this stuff too... .   the balance between codependence and self-care and relationships etc.

Here's a good article on the importance of having a good relationship with yourself and liking/loving yourself; if you like yourself it's not about feeling smug or self satisfied all the time or being right;  self ove isn't about that at all.

www.lovelifelearningcenter.com/taking-care-of-yourself-takes-care-of-your-relationship/


Often unhealthy narcissism is not expressed in the standard DSM or in a frank, self-satisfied, or blatantly conceited manner.

Have you ever been around someone who has to be perfect or the saint all the time?  I have.  The man I knew was the least narcissistc person I know ON PAPER you could ever think of,  because he was always so self-less and self-giving and extending himself with others and people all the time, people just love, love, love what a wonderful, giving, nice person he is.  He is adored by all.  Well. I was married to this man for six years.  I can tell you, there was very little ROOM in that relationship for anyone else but him and HIS Gahndi-like image.  

Unhealthy narcissism can show up in all sorts of ways. Narcissism is not self love or self care.

[maria1]

Laelle- after my mum died my dad went off to teach English in Portugal. I lived with a boyfriend for 3 years and when that ended I couldn't stay where I was. My father had moved the whole family somewhere when I was 15. This place only allowed people to stay if they were essentially employed or if they were millionaires, or if they wanted to live in horrible rented rooms.

I asked my dad if I could come stay with him in Portugal. He said yes but he was living in a flat share and he just hated having me there. I interfered with his life.

I mean, can you imagine feeling like that about our kids? I just can't imagine it; I think that's why I didn't get it for so long. I just couldn't believe he could just switch me off when he wanted to.

Just watching Margaret thatcher programme- NPD absolutely.

I'm sorry your mom treated you like that laelle. It's horrible.

[laelle]

I'm sorry your dad treated you like that.  You didnt deserve it.  Children deserve to be loved and cherished.  I spent too much time giving my ex the spot my children should have had. I hope they will be ok for what I have done.

[maria1]

They absolutely will. You did what you did because you care about others. That's way different to what our parents did which I'd putting themselves first. I have said sorry to my kids- I said I made a mistake and I hope I never make it again. They understand I think, because they cared about him too. Your kids will understand. Give them a chance to.

I think you are doing just great