Do they know they are manipulating?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So do they know what they do and if they're manipulating someone?

Do they think that's what they have to do in order to get something?

Do they recognize the effects it has on others?

Also, do they first need someone with a good self esteem and then need to break it down so thy feel they have control over the person and the relationship?

Because of all this, will they not consider being with someone thu can't manipulate or someone who's self esteem doesn't break down?

[fakename]

So do they know what they do and if they're manipulating someone?

Do they think that's what they have to do in order to get something?

Do they recognize the effects it has on others?

Also, do they first need someone with a good self esteem and then need to break it down so thy feel they have control over the person and the relationship?

Because of all this, will they not consider being with someone thu can't manipulate or someone who's self esteem doesn't break down?

[Dave44]

Yes yes and... .   yes. They know damn well their manipulating and they know damn well their lying. In most if not all cases they have no choice but to lie. The older they get the more of a past they have and the more they need to lie about it. They manipulate for control, they tune into you during the idealization phase and find out your inner workings and what makes to tick and vulnerable. They then exploit those characteristics later on to control you. It's a sick disorder.

[hithere]

So do they know what they do and if they're manipulating someone?

I think their reality is altered, they don't see the world the way normal people do.  But I think they do understand manipulation especially if they are high functioning.  My ex with BPD would tell me that in a relationship both people use each other.

Do they think that's what they have to do in order to get something?

Yes

Do they recognize the effects it has on others?

Yes and no, they can sometimes see their behaviors as over-the-top but they make up excuses to protect themselves, mine would say things like... .   "I am just passionate, that is why I go crazy" or "I say what everyone else thinks but doesn't have the guts to say"

Also, do they first need someone with a good self esteem and then need to break it down so thy feel they have control over the person and the relationship?

I think it is usually the opposite, they want to find someone that has low self-esteem or has recently been struggling, that way the idealization phase is used to hook them easily.

Because of all this, will they not consider being with someone thu can't manipulate or someone who's self esteem doesn't break down?

They definitely do look for someone that can give them what they want and they won't hang around if they don't get it.  On the flip-side I am sure they lose many potential partners quite early when the red flags start popping up.

[fakename]

Thanks for writing guys.

What from you guys wrote it sounds like they hav a premeditated plan. Do you really think that's how it is? Or don't you think that's just how it naturally progresses due to their behavior and defense mechanisms?

I mean, from what you wrote it kinda sounds like they are relationship assassins. I kinda feel like they do start out with best intentions. Or am I not looking at the real her and rather the honeymoon version of her

[hithere]

Do you really think that's how it is? Or don't you think that's just how it naturally progresses due to their behavior and defense mechanisms?

I know you want to believe that and so did I but the proof is in the pudding so-to-speak... .   she admitted that she sees a relationship as two people using each other and she was able to control 90% of her symptoms at work.  In truth I feel it is a combination of both a behavior and a flawed thought process.  Which came first? I don't know but I do not believe they have no control over their hurtful destructive actions.

[fakename]

So that brings the question was your ex jut like that or are all or the majority of them like that?

[Louise7777]

Yes to all the questions. 

Id just add something on the "do they know the effects on others?": they dont care for others feelings, so I dont think that question applies to them. Yes, they do know the effects, but they just dont care, cz its not abt them.

Not "relationships assassins" from their point of view. From ours, yes. If you are a doormat, then theres a relationship (not a healthy one): its one people giving and the other taking, all the time.

[causticdork]

Yes to all the questions. 

Id just add something on the "do they know the effects on others?": they dont care for others feelings, so I dont think that question applies to them. Yes, they do know the effects, but they just dont care, cz its not abt them.

Not "relationships assassins" from their point of view. From ours, yes. If you are a doormat, then theres a relationship (not a healthy one): its one people giving and the other taking, all the time.

This!  Ohmigod, this!  I have spent so many hours wanting to bash my head into a brick wall because I would tell my ex something she was doing was bothering me (like lying or stealing) and within twenty minutes she had made it into us arguing about how bad she felt all the time and the last thing she needed was for me to make her feel worse.  Then if I tried to bring up that it hurt when she stole from me or lied to me she would get mad and say, "It's always about you! You're so selfish!"  Umm... .   Really?  This conversation is about how much you hurt me.  That's what we're talking about.  How is it selfish to mention my feelings?

Yarg!  Sorry.  It's nice to be able to vent all these frustrations finally.  Anyway, mine is fully aware that she's manipulating me (not successfully anymore), but I think there are times when she's genuinely convinced that she is in love with me and all the mind-games are just her attempt to win me back because she loves me so much.  So she has convinced herself that she's the victim (cause I finally left her) and that her manipulations are noble and in the name of true love. 

[recoil]

My ex is a perpetual victim.  I think this clouds her judgement and enables her to justify some of her behaviors.  I don't know if they see it as manipulation -- more of survival.

Honestly, this is an easy mindset for everyone.  I even think of myself as a victim too easily when it comes to my late relationship.  I have to "pull back" a bit and think from a higher altitude.

[seeking balance]

fakename - one mistake a lot of us made in first learning about the disorder is that our BPD acts consciously a lot of the time... .   many times it is not conscious it is as ingrained survival as breathing.

So do they know what they do and if they're manipulating someone?

sometimes - it honestly depends on how high functioning and how much self-work they have done.  Keep in mind, they rarely know it at the time it is happening.

Do they think that's what they have to do in order to get something?

it isn't like the something they are trying to get is little - it is making their existence relevant at times - again, it can be a maladaptive coping skill that is as ingrained as breathing.

Do they recognize the effects it has on others?

yes, to the extent it is possible.  However, true empathy with BPD is very hard and unlikely because they feel such an intense shame component.

Also, do they first need someone with a good self esteem and then need to break it down so thy feel they have control over the person and the relationship?

no, someone with "fake" self esteem and weak boundaries is who will allow these relationships to continue.  They "buy" the idealization way better than someone with real self esteem.

Because of all this, will they not consider being with someone thu can't manipulate or someone who's self esteem doesn't break down?

they won't actually get with someone who has a very strong sense of self and boundaries because a person like this doesn't fall so easily, thus the pwBPD moves along.

What is the root of all these questions fakename?

[Louise7777]

Recoil, I agree with u. I once read "there are not victims, just volunteers". I dont think thats 100% acurate, but I can see I volunteered many times, for many different reasons.

The focus should be on US. Why do WE let such things happen and what WE should do to avoid, or how to improve OURSELVES.

You made a good point.

[fakename]

when you say they dont care about other people's feelings... .   are you saying that out of anger or hurt, or is it a scientific fact?

@causticdork,

wow. i went through the same type of arguments. i'm trying to explain how sometihng she did hrut me or wasn't right, and she turns it around... .   thanks for mentioning that, kinda forgot about those times... .  

@seeking balance,

so if they are acting subconsciously most of the time, are they then innately evil? (by standards of normal morals and ethics)?

i dont understand that... .   true empathy if very hard for them because they feel intense shame? i cant try to put myself in her shoes to understand what the thought process is like so i'm having trouble understanding that point... .   can you further explain please?


after some thought, i can see how my self esteem was already secretly poor before she came into my life... . sometimes i portrayed confidence but i think it was a disguise... .   so i need to stop thinking that she destroyed my self esteem when it was already weak and maybe she made sure to take advantage of that.  in effect, i think i was desperate for her idea of what love is that i didnt care how she treated me. it was all justifiable... . as explained by my own weak self esteem and of course by her... .  

the root of all the questions is i guess just to develop a better understanding... .   also because i'd like to figure out their nature and what their motives are (i dont know how to separate fact from things said out of hurt/anger on these boards) and also because i'm curious as to what she thought of me after we exchanged those few emails on friday... .   i could clearly see how i responded differently to her and i'm curious as to whether she's going to continue to try to manipulate or if she sees that i've grown backbone and will not be a doormat or cater so diligently to her needs and make all conversations and all of everything only about her... .   i def. saw that she turned off by me not being so protective or caring for her life happenings and feelings... .  

[laelle]

From my experience, I think they know to some extent, but the need is so great they can see nothing but the need, they can justify it to themselves if needed.

I dont think they have the executive control to stop themselves from doing it.

Its very hard to rationalize a person who is not rational.  You cant quite get your head around it because you are a rational thinker trying to think like an irrational person.

The best example that has been mentioned is they are emotionally the age of a 3 year old.  A 3 year old will manipulate the heck out of you to get what they want.  Stomp their feet, ignore you, scream at you, hold their breath if they dont get it.  A three year old isnt innately evil, they just dont have the skills to be any different.  

[seeking balance]

@seeking balance,

so if they are acting subconsciously most of the time, are they then innately evil? (by standards of normal morals and ethics)?

being the judge of someone else seems like a very slippery slope, don't you think?  Evil is not something I focus on, I focus on the mentally ill aspect.

i dont understand that... .   true empathy if very hard for them because they feel intense shame? i cant try to put myself in her shoes to understand what the thought process is like so i'm having trouble understanding that point... .   can you further explain please?

No, you cannot put yourself in their shoes because you do not have BPD.  Shame is a root cause of many addictions (one of the criteria if you recall).  The best way to describe shame is let's say you do something stupid, such as get drunk on a work night.  A person in shame will say, "I am stupid, worthless, horrible."  A person with guilt will say, "That was really stupid, I won't do that again."

The action is not the actual person.

Shame blocks empathy, but empathy can actually reduce shame. 

after some thought, i can see how my self esteem was already secretly poor before she came into my life... . sometimes i portrayed confidence but i think it was a disguise... .   so i need to stop thinking that she destroyed my self esteem when it was already weak and maybe she made sure to take advantage of that.  in effect, i think i was desperate for her idea of what love is that i didnt care how she treated me. it was all justifiable... . as explained by my own weak self esteem and of course by her... .  

Fakename, she didn't take advantage of you - hate to break this to you.

You used her to boost your self worth and she used you for a more stable sense of self.  2 broken people holding onto a sinking life raft.

At some point, focusing on self is where you must look if you want to walk to the other side.  We can focus clinically on BPD all day long, but unless you are BPD -that ain't gonna heal that broken you that was broken before this relationship ever started. 

[paperlung]

Mine didn't, well didn't acknowledge it. Her excuse was that since I was her boyfriend, I should do as she says because that is how it goes in relationships. If I refused? Well, she would also say I didn't care or love her then. Guilt trip much?

[laelle]

That is the devaluation... .  

People mistake Idealization for Idolation.  When they idealize you they put you in the place of the perfect boyfriend /girlfriend. You must do as they see the perfect boyfriend/girlfriend should do.  As you move through the relationship they see that you are not so perfect.  You have flaws... .   you cant be grey... .   so you must be black.  After a while they cant explain your imperfection to themselves anymore.  You are no longer their idealized partner... .    For my ex... .   at this point I became the mom who abandoned him, and focused his venom on me that I believe is his deeply placed anger, guilt, shame... .   that he has with his mom.  They cant self soothe, so they bury it.

I am now devalued.  They cant be black and you are.  They will have to bring you down in importance because in their reality you arent good enough for them now.  In addition, since you are black, they dont trust who you are and you could leave them.

They feel they are doing you a favor to tell you your flaws so you will fix them and not be imperfect anymore.  Enough is never enough.

It can switch back and forth but once they see the crack in your mirror, you wont ever go back to the full on idealization phase.

Thats the best I can explain it anyway.

[laelle]

I use to buy him video games (as he is an addict) to put me back white.  It use to work, but eventually he got use to me doing it and it was no longer something "special" done just for him, it was what a good girlfriend should do... .   so then you have to try harder to free yourself from his devaluing process.  If it makes you feel any better, they really root for you to win.  They cant help themselves to repeat the process.  Its who they are.

[Louise7777]

Fakename, I say it from my personal experience (meaning their behaviour towards me but also me witnessing how they act with others).

I dont believe theres something scientifical abt pshycology anyway. Theres science in neurobiology, but I dont see how therapy or pshycology can be scientific.

[fakename]

@seeking balance,

im not calling her evil to judge her, it's just me classifying bad things they do... .   whether she is mentally ill or not, i dont know how to phrase the question... .

oh yeah, i def. agree, we used each other... .   no doubt about it. and def 2 broken people holding onto a sinking raft... .

i'm working on fixing the broken me that was broken before i met her... .   i recognize that's of most importance.

@laelle,

i guess its just difficult for me to believe that this person has the emotional age of a 3 year old... .   i feel like i would instead be inclined to believe that i am wrong about her having BPD or maybe her BPD isnt as bad as others... .   just finding it hard to believe that she cant get better without years of intense therapy... .

and that especially goes for someone who knows they have BPD... .  

i just dont believe it.

also, your explanation was very good and insightful.

and also, i know exactly how you feel about them getting used to you doing nice things for them. i would always get frustrated at myself that i was sticking around with someone who was so unappreciative and always wanted or expected more.  thats my own fault.

@cristina, i guess i'm just looking for more argument or discussion on that, that i cant believe that they really only care about their own needs... .   i definitely saw it in my ex... .   i often thought of how ive never met anyone so selfish... .   but i guess i'm just struggling to believe either that its true, or that over 90% of what she does it clearly done with her own interests in mind (especially when thats just a terrible thing to do in a relationship) hahah

[laelle]

Its entirely possible that she could have BPD and not have all 9 of the criteria for BPD.  I know the diagnosis scale has changed now, but on the other scale you only needed 5 of 9 to get a BPD diagnosis.  Mine admittedly had all 9

Some people turn their anger inward - cut, self harm

Some turn their anger and shame outwards - raging, destructive behavior.

There are so many different combinations that just like normal people, they arent all the same.  More than that, there are times when they are normal and you wonder if maybe you werent wrong about them.  Its a cruel cruel illness.  I know you hurt, and I know your angry, and you have every right to be, but as I have said before, the only way to move past it, is to accept them as they are, decide that what they are will not make you happy, and work on yourself and moving on.  Have some much needed peace.  It doesnt matter exactly what you call them in the end, it only matters if you are able to live with it.  I love my ex, but I cant live a life like that.

[LetItBe]

i guess its just difficult for me to believe that this person has the emotional age of a 3 year old... .   i feel like i would instead be inclined to believe that i am wrong about her having BPD or maybe her BPD isnt as bad as others... .   just finding it hard to believe that she cant get better without years of intense therapy... .

and that especially goes for someone who knows they have BPD... .  

i just dont believe it.

fakename, I felt the exact same way.  I reunited with my BPDxbf, and it was confirmed after only a few weeks of another honeymoon phase, that yes, his BPD is very real, and it still drives his behaviors -- even with all of the effort he's put into his healing (10 years of T).  He really tries.  I really tried, too, but I could not beat BPD.  

He seems to have the emotional IQ of an 8-year-old when he's stressed.  I have a friend who's a T and works with pwBPD, and when she met him, she said he seemed really young and very vulnerable.  According my T (who also works with pwBPD and specializes in DBT), with what she's heard about him, it would take "YEARS of therapy before he can function in a healthy r/s."  Change happens slowly, and the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, according to her.

I'm not sure he recognizes the effect he has on me.  He has impaired empathy, so he only sees my feelings as they relate to his own self-worth.  He said he used to feel a lot of guilt come up, that he felt like a horrible person when I'd get upset.  Sounds like shame... .   Now, he just seems to detach completely from my feelings when I'm upset, not feeling anything other than pride about his ability to do that.

I heard him say something once about his "aptitude," that he could manipulate people if he wanted to, and sometimes, it has seemed like his manipulations toward me were indeed intentional.  I think a lot of times, though, he doesn't see himself as being manipulative.

I think someone with good self-esteem would be highly unlikely to stick around like I did with him.  I have work to do, obviously.

[seeking balance]

im not calling her evil to judge her, it's just me classifying bad things they do... .   whether she is mentally ill or not, i dont know how to phrase the question... .

why do you need to label it good or bad at all?

Putting a "bad" label on it, sometimes is our way (unintentionally) being a victim.

Radical Acceptance means accepting w/o judgment and then choosing if that behavior works for you or not.

As you are actively trying to understand BPD - have you spent time on DBT and tools like radical acceptance?  I found all of this very helpful in my own recovery.

[seeking balance]

He seems to have the emotional IQ of an 8-year-old when he's stressed. 

This is so important to keep in mind, the maladaptive coping (behaviors that don't work well for us) happen most when our partners are stressed.  This stress may be real or perceived. and is typically rooted in a fear of abandonment or engulfment.

High functioning pwBPD are "fine" a lot of the time.  They are also stressed a lot of the time and have learned "appropriate" responses even when they may be dysregulated.  This is why it is so hard for us in relationship when we start to see subtle inconsistencies - we have seen it correct before, why now is my partner acting different - we think.

Many times, our partner was acting what we deem as normal, but it was an act just as much as the maladaptive coping is an act - having an unstable sense of self, makes them... .   well, unstable.

[fakename]

@laelle,

i dont really feel any anger and the hurt has subsided a bunch... .   i'm doing especially well since yesterday (didnt want to say anything cause didnt want to jinx it... .   she is on my mind, but i feel more free than before.  i'm just trying to understand how she operates i guess

if there's anything i'm angry about its i just hurt my shoulder and i was looking forward to working out arms and shoulders all day... . hopefully its better in a day or 2... .  


@nongf,

wow 10 years of therapy and it stills drives his behavior? i still cant understand that... . if it's a matter of emotional capacity, why cant they grow even after focusing on it? especially if they are aware of having BPD, they cant stop mid-thought or mid-action and observe what they are doing in time?


@seeking balance... .  

haha, alright i wont put a label on it... .  

the behavior doesn't work for me... .   i'm just trying to understand... .   i dont know if there are ulterior motives in me trying to understand or what, but i just feel like i want to know, not in a sense that i need to know the answer, i know there isn't one, but out of the same reason i wonder about the stars or aliens-curiosity and because it's fascinating... .   and i'd rather know more accurate information... .  

i havent looked into DBT and radical acceptance, cause i figured i dont need to know since i'm not gonna have to deal with her again, but i'll check it out now... .  


i guess i also get confused by wording of explanations... .   like as you say "our partner was acting what we deem as normal, but it was an act just as much as the maladaptive coping is an act"

with using the word 'act', i feel like i understand from it that they are operating with such calculation that they know exactly what they are doing and are only out for themselves... .   they would have to be incredible smart to do that.

isn't it just their innate behavior to do what they do? like they dont really know what they are doing?

i dont know. i think i need to take a step away from it all i am greatly confusing myself!

[clairedair]

As I've mentioned in another post, many years ago I behaved in a way that caused my exH great hurt.  Close friends and family were very understanding because I think they realised the pressure I had been under.  My exH was incredibly hurt and angry and devastated that others did not 'condemn' me.

I'm mentioning this because I spent the best part of a year feeling ashamed and that shame actually caused me to hurt him even more.  Even if he was being loving to me, I would feel terrible.  I would be unable to look him in the eye and end up emotionally withdrawing or even pushing him away.   When I felt ashamed (and I would say I felt the toxic shame of thinking that it would have been better for ex and my kids if I wasn't around), it was a feeling ten times worse that the hurt and anger and confusion of the BPD rollercoaster of recent years.  Those feelings have been a reaction to other people.  The feeling of shame was all me.  I wanted to do anything to get rid of it. 

Later, when exH was the one causing the hurt (and doing so repeatedly), I experienced the same behaviour from him.  I would tell him I loved him; forgave him etc but I could sense that he felt bad for hurting me; felt ashamed of his actions.  It wouldn't be long before he either started withdrawing or criticising me and reminding me of my 'sins'.

I see this as manipulative in the sense that his words/actions led to me changing my behaviour or ignoring my boundaries and values to appease/have him like me again.  But I don't believe his very hurtful behaviour was pre-meditated.  I think it was defensive behaviour.  At times it seemed like a matter of survival.

[Louise7777]

Fakename, you are surprised cause somebody mentioned that a BPD is in therapy for 10 years and not much change. How come? On this website I´ve learnt that they dont learn from experience and also, they manipulate the T.

Ok, of course not all of BPDs do that. But keep in mind they are emotionally 3 year-olds. Do you really expect a 3yo understand others feelings? 3 yo grow up and mature, but not BPDs... .  

I suggest you read more abt them on this website, theres very informative material, I can say I learnt a lot and many things I instinctively aprehended were true... .  

[fakename]

@clairedair,

your example gave me a better understanding of how shame affects them and their actions towards us.

but let's say from the beginning of our relationship, if she wasnt doing anything wrong, does she carry shame from what she's done to others?

@cristina,

haha, yeah its funny how i am surprised. i guess like i said i cant believe after knowing of the issue, and working towards it for so long, that it cant be rectified... .  

maybe i'm just looking for a different answer or maybe i just believe that with time and hard work, you can change yourself... . i dont get why BPDs can grow up and mature if others can... .   if the mental illness works to literally prohibit that, then all i can say is the mind works in mysterious ways... .  

i guess its also hard for me to believe because maybe 10 years ago, my mom suffered a bout of schizophrenia (i literally lost my mom-she was in no way the same person).  it came out of nowhere (or maybe through stress from having to deal with my dad who i believe has NPD traits i've learned since being here, though his behavior has improved over the years and that is without therapy)

anyway, she was briefly admitted, was on medication for about a year, and then went off the meds... .   after about 6 months she had a relapse... .   so then again, was back on the meds... .   but again after less than a year, weened off the meds and ever since she's completely back to normal and better than ever... .   i guess thats why its hard for me to comprehend that they cant improve if they know what the issue is... .  

anyway, i'm gonna spend some time on the questions about BPD and BPD resources boards so i can i guess have a more intelligent conversation

[LetItBe]

@nongf,

wow 10 years of therapy and it stills drives his behavior? i still cant understand that... . if it's a matter of emotional capacity, why cant they grow even after focusing on it? especially if they are aware of having BPD, they cant stop mid-thought or mid-action and observe what they are doing in time?

I agree that it's puzzling.  That sense of disbelief is what led me back into the r/s.  I was SO hopeful since he'd learned a lot, and I'd learned a lot, especially with the communication tools on the Staying Board.  I will say that for a few weeks, it seemed like he'd learned how to stop mid-thought or mid-action.  He seemed to be utilizing some DBT or CBT skills when we'd have a difficult discussion.  He'd even stop, hold my hands, and say, "Let's return to the premise that we love each other."  One time, he even asked for space instead of just exploding or running away unannounced.  Also, my use of the communication tools (validation, SET, DEARMAN) really seemed to help.  So, things were looking soo much better than before.  He just couldn't seem to manage after a few weeks, though.  Thus, the downward spiral began once again.   It's a very sad situation for not only me but for him.  I have to focus on myself right now, though, to stay grounded in the fact that this he is unable to be the partner that I need.

[Louise7777]

Fakename, you said "anyway, i'm gonna spend some time on the questions about BPD and BPD resources boards so i can i guess have a more intelligent conversation"

I never meant you are an ignorant or any of that. Sorry if I made you feel that way. I was just pointing at something that its hard to accept. And its hard to accept for all of us. But at some point you have to and move on.

Im still confused on many issues regarding PDs, but I believe BPD is not an illness, its a disorder, as the D stands for. As far as I know, schizophrenia is a very different thing, you cant really compare people suffering from it to others suffering with BPD. Also, there is a lot of people who are diagnosed from a variety of ilnesses and disorders who DONT accept treatment. So being diagnosed is one thing, accepting treatment, a very different one.

From what I have experienced, BPDs dont really look for help, its not really a problem for them, but for the ones around them. Usually, these are the ones who get disturbed and seek help. But thats my personal experience, maybe others see it other way... .  

[fakename]

@nongf,

thats a pretty moving story. i cant imagine the rollercoaster of emotions you must have felt experiencing all of that... .   for a period thiking that, 'yes, finally, he's getting it figured out' and then it just going back to square one... .   definitely moving stuff.

i think i recall some of those moments with my ex... .   one time in the car as we were going out to eat, she didnt like the way my hair looked (even though before leaving i didnt style it the way i prefer, but in a fashion that would appease to her) and she wanted me to fix it... .   using a bottle of water in the car, i kept trying to change it to her liking, i couldnt get it in a way i liked with her liking it at the same time, but kept trying and i was getting frustrated... .   ( i was at a point in the relationship when i no longer yelled or said anything mean, but when frustrated i guess it would be visible) and she said whats wrong, i said nothing, and she said you're frustrated and i said yeah, she said why, i said dont worry about it, and then said something like i understand its cause you feel like i'm taking away your personality... .  

i know its a stupid example, and small, but that was actually a big moment for me, cause i was like, "woah, what? you actually understand why you're getting me frustrated? you never acted like this before... .   i guess you are trying to make this work this time around"

that evening we strolled about and walked past these apartments and she said she liked them and could imagine us living in that area, and then sure enough in the coming days and weeks were many breakups because she was trying to reach out to her ex who was ignoring her (i firmly believe if he wasnt ignoring her, she wouldve left me at any moment)

@cristina,

hahah, stop it cristina. i sometimes have a very dry and sarcastic sense of humor and i throw out self-deprecating jokes just as much as my narcissistic jokes... .   i appreciate you being sensitive about it, but dont worry, was just joking at my lack of real knowledge on it... .  

i read through a good amount of those boards and will read more and they are def. helpful in better understanding. but i guess i still fail to believe that life would be as miserable or hopeless with them if they focused on improving... .   i guess i need more data or examples. maybe i'm being stubborn, or maybe its just such a mystifying disorder to me at the moment.

so with it being a disorder rather than an illness, is that classification indicative of the potential for recovery from treatment?

how can it not be a problem for someone with BPD if they go in terrible bouts of crying and threats of suicide? are they just moment by moment and have no recollection of how bad they were just feeling if they have a different 'drug' to relieve their sensations for present moment? i dont know about that... .