His holiday with Ex and how to confront - Part III

[Depression = 72% of members]

Wow - Part III eh?

Here's part II:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=198360.0

Thanks Phoebe for your response.

Am having a low day today on this. Headachey, angry and anxious. He gets back day after tomorrow. Right now all I think about is his return and how anxious it makes me feel. I know we will need to talk but I have no idea what I am going to say. I have no idea if I will even be able to look at his face after this. I said in a PM today that it feels like the person he was before the holiday is lost to me now. Like he went away as my bf and will come back a stranger.

Underneath all these emotions is still love but I feel no trust. Floating round my head is an idea of BPD DBT therapy. I will see my T's on Friday and see how I go from there. I am finding this hard. I dont want him but I do. I know what I should do but I dont want to do it.

x

[connect]

Wow - Part III eh?

Here's part II:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=198360.0

Thanks Phoebe for your response.

Am having a low day today on this. Headachey, angry and anxious. He gets back day after tomorrow. Right now all I think about is his return and how anxious it makes me feel. I know we will need to talk but I have no idea what I am going to say. I have no idea if I will even be able to look at his face after this. I said in a PM today that it feels like the person he was before the holiday is lost to me now. Like he went away as my bf and will come back a stranger.

Underneath all these emotions is still love but I feel no trust. Floating round my head is an idea of BPD DBT therapy. I will see my T's on Friday and see how I go from there. I am finding this hard. I dont want him but I do. I know what I should do but I dont want to do it.

x

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[Seashells]

 

Thinking of you and glad you started the new thread.   I think it's going to be really difficult because this person was already someone you wanted him to let go of contact with, yes? 

And in reality he just upped the ante significantly.  I think it's a matter of whether you can accept this kind of behavior continuing or not.

And I'm thinking based upon your reaction to him upon his return is maybe going to determine whether he realizes he can continue this or not.   IDK.  And you know my pwBPD traits says now he doesn't always take what I say seriously because he's gotten me to come back before.      

I'm looking forward to hearing what the therapist says.  I also have to admit I'd like to give him a proverbial swift kick in the pants for you.       (sorry mods)

And I hear exactly what you're saying.  I feel the exact same way sometimes, I want it, but I want it how I want it, and not necessarily how it is now... .       I think that's the part where we bargain with ourselves.

[connect]

Hi Seashells,

Thank you, you get what I mean -  Thanks for the pant kicking offer - just let me know the time and I'll set it up for you... .

Well tonight has been rather interesting. I finally got the text from him that wouldnt trigger me: He says he's sorry. I was right and he was wrong. He's coming back from the holiday early.

He then kept texting and calling which I blanked for hours but eventually I answered. He said he has had a ___ time with lots of rows and hated it. He spilled out a lot to me on the phone but I was pretty frosty. Turns out the rows were so bad that she got someone to come and pick her and her kids up so she's already left. That changed things somewhat in my view as it looked more like HER cutting the holiday short but he said that she left because he was going to go early the next day.

I am aware of the following:

1) Stokholm Syndromn - the relief I initially felt was so great that I can see how this works.

2) There is a possibility that SHE cut the holiday short so he came running to me.

3) She is now the persecuter and I am the saviour

4) The rows between her and him could be the main problem rather than what he was doing to me

See I am learning... .   I am trying to be realistic about this (new for me)

He kept apologising. Said how bad he felt. Said he should have listened to me. Said he'd learnt a lesson. Thanked me for even picking up the phone and answering his call. Said I didnt need to worry about her as all they did was argue. The whole thing felt wrong to leave me here and go with her. Nothing happened. He is still texting me now saying he's sorry.

Obviousley this makes me feel better then I have been. BUT I am still continuing my evaluation and therapy around this issue. The holiday DID happen for the most part and I am not going to forget that. I do not like how I have been treated. I am deciding how to handle it but its late now so I am not thinking so well tonight. I know you will say he is reeling me back in and I can see that. I know what he is doing. I know that he has still had most of his holiday. I know that I may not be getting the whole truth. I am glad we have spoken tonight as I didnt know if I would be able to talk to him without blowing up so at least that hurdle is over with. I told him about the week of hell he has put me through.

So as someone else on here said - "once you are not in their way they get to do what they want - then they find they dont like that much either"

I will think about this more in the morning. I am seeing the patterns and behaviour a lot clearer now. If and only IF I re-engage with him it will be under terms that I set regarding therapy, me not living there anymore and cutting her out. I have a lot of thinking to do.

Thanks guys.

[MaybeSo]

Said he should have listened to me.

Hmmmm.  A grown up would see this situation as a very bad idea from the start... .   even without the warnings.

Well, junior has created quite a mess, hasn't he?

[GaGrl]

Cast.  Hook. Reel in.

Are you willing to continue biting at the bait?

[Seashells]

Wow, wow, wow... .   what a turning of events my friend.  Yes, it's difficult to know what happened for sure.

One thought or suggestion I've learned the hard way and have also read from others on here.  Might be good to think about making those boundaries around you and for you as opposed to presenting them to him as an ultimatum.  KWIM? Let it be his choice to comply to your needs.

[Seashells]

And also if it had ended up being a wonderful time for him?  Then what?  Would it have been so wrong?

Would he have been sorry then?   

[connect]

Hi,

Maybeso - you made me laugh - yes junior has created quite a mess - couldnt agree more - more DRAMA and CHAOS

Gagrl - Yes I agree - reeling in... .  

Seashells - Thanks for the boundary advice - if there's one thing that this week has given me is a kick up the ___e as to thinking about boundaries and what I want from a r/s. Also in how they are presented - not out of fear or an ultimatum but from a place of self protection. I do think that I had reached the point where I would have accepted losing the r/s. That feels a stronger place to be, knowing I would have accepted it ending. Also I agree with what you said about if it was a good time would he have been sorry? No I doubt he would have in the way he is now. I am keeping this in mind. I dont like thinking about this but I am making myself think about this to keep myself in REALITY.

Thanks as ever x

[Grey Kitty]

Well, at least it is a change... .  

Apologies can really suck. I remember hearing what was probably the first sincere one I received from my wife, and it was after 20 years!

A sincere apology is one where there is understanding that the apologist did something harmful, and regret for doing it. (Usually accompanied with a desire to never do it again!)

What I had got before was apologies for anything but what she did that hurt me. Often apologies for being such a bad person. So when I got a real one I was impressed. I think it wasn't until she was well on her way to curing her BPD characteristics--I wouldn't expect most pwBPD to get that right.

So did you get a real apology for how he hurt you by choosing to go on this vacation? He might have hit on it in the midst of all his other apologies... .   but it is food for thought.

This turn of events sounds more satisfying than the wish that she would get diarrhea, at least! 

[maria1]

Hi Connect

Grey Kitty wrote just what I was thinking. His apology says I was wrong and should have listened to you- I have had a terrible time

It doesn't seem to acknowledge the hurt it did to you. It doesn't say i was wrong to hurt you like that and I need to do something about my behaviour because I keep doing this to you.

You saying you want him to get therapy isn't really a boundary, it's a condition. And you imposing that condition is unlikely to work. Therapy can only work if it is a decision made and acted upon by the person undertaking the therapy. He needs to absolutely want it- it needs to come from him.

My ex  knew as soon as he went off with his other woman that he had made a mistake; he found out she had issues around sex and that she was a little too hairy for his liking (Yes, I share that because it makes me feel sick to my stomach too). What if she was amazing in bed and hair free?

My ex is also aware that he needs help and that he keeps hurting those he loves. He has committed to therapy at times properly wanting to change. He asked me if that would make a difference to how I saw me and him, if I would consider 'us' again in a year or two if he went through therapy. I said no because I know I can never trust him again. I tell you my story because I chose to get out. I could have chosen to stay. I still think we were a fantastic match in so many ways and it's possible I may never find a similar match (he bought tickets for the National for me- had such a great night!) BUT I absolutely lost myself and I was on my knees by the end. I would have ended up in a very, very bad place had I stayed. After that National concert we split up because we had such a great time. Nothing ever lasted. He is seriously disordered.

Now I am getting to a better place than I EVER thought possible.

Do you want to live with this?

I didn't and hated having to go through the pain of leaving but it is SO worth it on the other side. I promise you.

[connect]

Greykitty - Thanks you-you certainly have had a lot of experience here. He did say he was sorry to have done this to me but that seemed lower on the list then the other apologies. I agree with you about what a sincere apology looks like. Waiting 20 years for a sincere apology was a long time for you!

Maria1 - Thanks. The conversation last night is only the start of what I want to hear from him. When I see him I am not going to guide him towards saying what I want or put words in his mouth. I am going to see what he says further about his behaviour without my prompting. If I can do this I think I will be enlightened. Reminder of a difference between a boundary and a condition is also helpful. Your ex sounds like he was very up and down like mine. Good times leading to bad times like clockwork. I am glad you are in a better place now and put your well being first.

I woke up today unsettled with a head full of thoughts. I want to hear what he has to say when he is back but have lost so much trust that I find myself doubting the truth of anything he says right now. The circumstance of the holiday ending is rather cloudy/gaslighty but I need to get away from focussing on that and instead focus on the fact he felt it was ok to go on this holiday and how that viewpoint has shifted for him. I am pleased about this turn of events overall but am taking everything with a pinch of salt at the moment. I wont let it distract me from all the work I have been doing to look at this situation and this r/s. I dont know if I feel positive or negative at the moment - am tired so need to catch up on sleep and approach it when I am more awake... .

Thanks guys

[sm15000]

He kept apologising. Said how bad he felt. Said he should have listened to me. Said he'd learnt a lesson. Thanked me for even picking up the phone and answering his call. Said I didnt need to worry about her as all they did was argue. The whole thing felt wrong to leave me here and go with her. Nothing happened. He is still texting me now saying he's sorry

Well OK, he's apologising - and he's said it to you personally over the phone. . .I only ever got sorry's by card.  But, it's still mostly about him and how it's triggered his shame.  As someone else pointed out he hasn't acknowledged what he's put you through.

The important thing now is his actions.  What is he going to do to SHOW you that this won't happen again?  Because, unfortunately, they will say anything to avoid more shame and accountability. 

You will inevitably meet. . .it's how you handle that that's important now.  What's happened has happened. . .he went, regardless of 'how great a time he had' or what the end result really was.  You have to have a steely head and try your hardest to look objectively at this and not so personally.  Try not to go around in circles of what he did and why - it gets you nowhere. 

You can't help or change him, so if he wants a r/s with you, and he's realised all of what he said above - what's HE going to do to move forward - if that's what you want? 

[patientandclear]

And also if it had ended up being a wonderful time for him?  Then what?  Would it have been so wrong?

Would he have been sorry then?    

Exactly.  It sounds like he can tell he made a mistake because it wasn't fun, so, it wasn't worth causing the mess he has now made with you.

If it had been fun, it might have been worth making that mess.

True reflection & contrition would involve calling the whole thing off even if it was expected to go great & was in fact going great.

Connect, your analysis seems spot on.  Hang onto it.  Your Stockholm Syndrome point reminds me of the enormous flood of relief I felt when my pwBPD told me a couple months ago that -- though he was still leaving town indefinitely -- he'd decided he'd eventually come back here (to the town where I live & he lived till he left).  What he had been doing -- discussing moving & never coming back, as if it had no implications for our r/s -- had inflicted so much hurt.  So when he said he was coming back, I felt subsumed in happy, joyous, relieved feelings.  Why?  Because he stopped hurting me.  Ugh.

(Of course he also resumed hurting me in the same way only more so a couple weeks later when he then announced he was moving to another city, at random.  Though he's since changed that plan too.)

That good feeling you're getting from what he's saying now (and who among us would not feel the same?) is really really suspect.  It is about him taking his foot off the gas pedal for a moment.  I know how hard it is to not just sink into the relief and go back in.  I didn't do that when it was offered with my ex after he first broke up with me, because, I told him, he needed to figure out why it had happened & how it wouldn't happen again.  I've spent 18 months second-guessing that decision because it's so hard to let the "goodies," as MaybeSo called them on the last thread, go.  But if you go back in as things are now, a pattern is set where he won't protect and safeguard your r/s, and your feelings about it matter only when he has to deal with them momentarily to get what he wants.

[LetItBe]

When I see him I am not going to guide him towards saying what I want or put words in his mouth. I am going to see what he says further about his behaviour without my prompting. If I can do this I think I will be enlightened.

I woke up today unsettled with a head full of thoughts. I want to hear what he has to say when he is back but have lost so much trust that I find myself doubting the truth of anything he says right now. The circumstance of the holiday ending is rather cloudy/gaslighty but I need to get away from focussing on that and instead focus on the fact he felt it was ok to go on this holiday and how that viewpoint has shifted for him.

Hi, connect.  

I think you are wise not to give him the keys to what you need to hear.  He will continue to reveal himself.  He's been revealing himself all along.

I know what you mean about having a head full of thoughts and doubting anything he has to say.  I know it's natural to want to figure out the how's and why's, to try to make logical sense of things.  Yes, he thought it was okay to do this regardless of your feelings.  Yes, something has shifted for him.  Who knows what it was?  What's important here is how his actions made you feel, no matter how justified he was in his mind, no matter what.  Please don't lose your grounding based on external circumstances.  His moods will always be shifting.  It's up to you to stay anchored.  You can do it.  The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior according to my T (who works with many pwBPD and is a DBT specialist).  I know it's hard.  Good luck.

[Seashells]

What he had been doing -- discussing moving & never coming back, as if it had no implications for our r/s -- had inflicted so much hurt.  So when he said he was coming back, I felt subsumed in happy, joyous, relieved feelings.  Why?  Because he stopped hurting me.  Ugh.

This, this, this ^^^^^^^^^ is a  moment for me.  Thank you for sharing your thoughts P&C.  I always thought of SS as becoming protective of "captors" without making this distinction as to how it relates to what happens in these relationships.  WOW.

I can't stay on long as I've been neglecting my work.  I'm wondering if any of you have participated in the Personal Inventory Board / threads?  I'm looking forward to getting there. 

P&C again thank you, this post made me really think about things in a much more enlightened way.  All of you contribute so much to helping sort things out. 

NonGF the advice about staying grounded and not losing that because of external circumstances, that is such a tough one for me (and all of us I think) to wrestle with.  Yes?  I get very caught up in the line between trying to be empathetic to others circumstances and confusing or allowing my empathy to influence accepting or excusing the behavior which invades my boundaries.  Heady stuff yes?   It seems a very hard line to walk and keep in perspective.

My dear Connect... .   I am thinking of you, wishing you a good day and hoping to catch up soon. 

Peace and hugs to all of you.  The things you people write amaze me.  Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and experiences here 

[LetItBe]

NonGF the advice about staying grounded and not losing that because of external circumstances, that is such a tough one for me (and all of us I think) to wrestle with.  Yes?  I get very caught up in the line between trying to be empathetic to others circumstances and confusing or allowing my empathy to influence accepting or excusing the behavior which invades my boundaries.  Heady stuff yes?   It seems a very hard line to walk and keep in perspective.

You are right.  This is tough.  Mindfulness meditation practice helps with this.  I need to do it more consistently like I was before I started to feel off-center.  I'm no expert, but I'm practicing.  This r/s has given me that "opportunity" to work on this part of myself.  For me, it's one moment at a time right now. 

Thinking of you, connect. 

[yeeter]

Hugs connect.   

In some ways this whole thing has the potential for a worst case scenario IMO.

That is:

You set a boundary (a reasonable, thoughtful, one)

He does what he wanted (nothing wrong with that per se, he gets to make his own life decisions and by doing so he sent a clear signal that he didn't value your relationship over other things he wants to do)

He goes and it didn't go as he expected/hoped.

So then he calls back and tries to do damage control.  Apologizing (but still not understanding the underlying hurt/betrayal)

You very very much want it to 'work out', so you are putting yourself through hoops to 'give it every possible chance'

Feels like you will accept the apology and he will go back to business as usual after a short while.

He will now 'know' that he can do whatever he wants and you will accept it.

I'm sorry to be so harsh about it. It's really a tough situation to be in.  Sending you some hugs and strength to make change and set yourself up for a positive future, no matter what happens with this particular relationship.     

[Grey Kitty]

Greykitty - Thanks you-you certainly have had a lot of experience here. He did say he was sorry to have done this to me but that seemed lower on the list then the other apologies. I agree with you about what a sincere apology looks like. Waiting 20 years for a sincere apology was a long time for you!

FYI, I never waited 20 years for an apology. I just got insincere apologies for the first 20 years.

I also never had a betrayal quite like yours... .   In fact, the one time in my life most like your situation, my wife did pretty much back down.

 I'm wishing you strength and peace as you work though what you want to do next.

[connect]

Hello guys,

Just checking in to say that I am still in the midst of it. Will try and post more tomorrow. Have had a lot of apologies and good conversations. An excellent talk last night. Tonight was rather more disregulated. I decided the best thing to do was JADE - I couldnt help myself as was caught off guard in a vulnerable state. Not such a good chat after that. Will try again the day after tomorrow... .  

Thanks for the kind posts people :-)

[123Phoebe]

Hey Connect,

I guess I'm not really sure what all else there is for the the two of you to discuss about this issue?  A lot of the time, I think, we make things much more difficult than need be.  Your 'bf' did something that was not okay with you.  For now it seems like you've accepted that this has happened, otherwise no need to discuss anything other than what you'll do in the event that it happens again.  What will you you do if something of this nature happens again?  What are your limits?

I think in a situation where I'm on the fence and confused about what to do, I'd make him work for me; I'd want to know how much I mean to him.  No way no how would I drive to him, go to see him or do anything at all where I'm following him around in any capacity.  I'd sit tight where he's concerned, get busy doing other things that are fulfilling and let him come to me.  I would need proof that he's interested and sorry for what he's done.  ACTIONS, not words.  It would also be a while before I was spending the night over there.  There would be no playing house.  Plus, who knows what he was doing with his good old buddy... .  

If you're willing to go back to him after this, then it seems like you've forgiven him.  If you forgive him, then it's time to let go of what he did.  Back and forth talking about it won't solve anything; it won't make the past go away.  And there's nothing at all you can say that will miraculously make him think twice about doing it again if the opportunity arises, other than, 'this happens again and I am outta here', and mean it.  Shaming him (there are varying degrees of this) and carrying on while in a vulnerable state will result in 'dysregulation'.  He most likely realizes that you're not going anywhere if you're willing to continue talking to him about this-- that's the "N" component and a strong one at that.  Not to mention, welcome to the new dynamic!

If you haven't forgiven him, then say so, "Hey, I'm absolutely not okay with any of this and I don't know when or how I can get past it.  I need some time"  And take it.

It's up to you to change/improve this dynamic, by being true to yourself.  You have to respect yourself before you can expect respect coming from him.  Walk your talk, connect  

[arabella]

I'm on board with Yeeter and Phoebe. Actually, I have lived the scenario Yeeter laid out. Now it's happening again and I'm trying find my ground to stop it from going the same way twice (easier said than done).

I like Phoebe's suggestion of taking a time out to ground yourself. You don't have to cut him off completely, but you do need some space. Otherwise he will railroad you into a forgive-and-forget 'resolution' (that resolves absolutely nothing). Make him work as hard as you're working.

[MaybeSo]

123phoebe, totally agree.

There was something very addictive about the circular arguments, the marathon discussions, the drawn out mea culpas that would change from day to day, or minute to minute.

I really dove deeply into this for about 2 years with my very similar ex. I was encouraged on this board to not engage this way, but I think it took two years of painful experience to finally start backing off, and not engaging in protracted discussions and twisty arguments.

Connect, there is something about the never ending verbal component of this dynamic that is very addictive and counterproductive. It really fed my ex's narcissism while I avoided dealing with my own anxiety re: self care and personal boundaries.

Less is more in these situations.

[connect]

Thanks guys - great to read what you have said. I havent officially forgiven him or gone back to living at his house / sex etc. I wanted to hear what he had to say. Due to what he said and how he has been acting (he deleted his facebook acct etc as a show of action to back up his concentrating on me stuff) I agreed we would talk more about my side of things last night over the dinner he arranged for us to have out.

He completely disregulated over this meal. Almost as bad as I have ever seen him. He said things that made no sense and were wildly inaccurate. The other 2 sides of his triangle are both mucked up at the same time. He ended up screaming "everyone hates me, everyone is cross with me, everyone thinks I'm a ***"

The illness was full blown last night. Again I dont know what to write. How can difficult things ever be worked through and talked about when disregulation is triggered? This stuff is beyond me. :-(

[sm15000]

How can difficult things ever be worked through and talked about when disregulation is triggered? This stuff is beyond me. :-(

It can't. . .that's the bottom line.  You haven't forgiven him, you're not letting it go. . .so it will escalate - there's no talking it through.  He will make attempts to try and portray he is e.g. deleting his FB account (for now at least), take you out for meals on the pretence that you will talk about your side of things but it is the last thing he really wants. . .he wants you to FORGET IT.

It is about you now. . .what will you really accept and what won't you?  :)on't think you're the only one who has floundered on this - it took me 6 months of the circular arguments, believing his shallow attempts to 'talk', his written apologies that he would 'never put me through this again' and 'he would be a better man' etc etc.  They were all really desperate stalling tactics to shut me up because as I said before 'actions' didn't match 'words'.  

Unfortunately, if you don't make a stand there's only one certainty - he will do it again.  Really, good luck. . .I know it's a horrible time  

PS.  If you want to try and calm him down - it will be hard to do considering your hurt - then perhaps validate the fact he FEELS everyone hates him e.g. it must be awful to feel everybody hates you etc etc

[123Phoebe]

He ended up screaming "everyone hates me, everyone is cross with me, everyone thinks I'm a ***"

Once he's dysregulated it's best to exit stage left and let him calm himself down; it's not your job to do that for him as it feeds right into the disorder-- protect yourself.  

What he was doing was the equivalent of a temper tantrum.  He cannot handle heavy emotions, he is seriously mentally ill.  BPD is a mental illness.  He needs therapy for a long long time to overcome his disordered coping mechanisms.

You cannot make him go to therapy.  You can have a boundary that you will not continue in this relationship until he gets therapy, but you cannot make him go.

This is your 'relationship', as it stands now.  Both of you are bringing your own dynamite into it, creating this dynamic.  Engaging in non-productive ways, with all the twists and turns and ups and downs and outbursts and crazy making behaviors is part of the deal with an untreated pwBPD.  Is this what you want?

If it's not, then you have to get serious about what you will and won't accept in this relationship.  Read the lessons, learn the tools, read books on self improvement etc etc etc.  

It's not easy, it's hard hard hard hard work!  And even then, there are no guarantees.  We 'nons' are just as disordered as our partners when we put up with and add to the dysfunction.

You're on the Staying Board.  There are specific ways to handle certain situations that improve our relationships.  The relationship will look a whole lot different than what we had in mind at the start.  But you know what?  We become a whole lot stronger regardless of what the pwBPD ends up doing

[connect]

Thanks guys - you're great  ]

Phoebie you are right about the self improvement - I don't think I have ever delved this deep before! It has made me face up to some of my own issues.

Anyway I just wanted to come on and say that I haven't been posting much as I have a housing situation to sort now that I am not living at my pwBPD's. We will date and are communicating better now but there is still a lot to look at.

Thanks will post when I can X