How to Establish Boundaries?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I feel almost guilty to say this, but now that my BPD wife and I are separated and I have joint custody, it is almost nice not to have her around--it was like having another child who intervened whenever I tried to establish boundaries for the kids.  I can see now why the children drove her and I crazy when we were trying to make it work.  To her, validating the children meant acknowledging every last comment, or question, that they asked--which would come a mile a minute, and meant that her and I could never communicate. 

I can see now that this has created an environment where our oldest son doesn't understand, or respect, boundaries between him and any adult in the room.  He wants to be enmeshed in everything that the adults are doing, and consistently works to break down boundaries whenever you ask him to go and be independent, to the point where he is eventually hanging off of your arm.  It makes it no easier when my wife is around, because when I ask our son to go and be independent and find something creative to do, she insists that its my job to "validate" everything he says, which again, eventually means that he ends up hanging off of your arm. 

My question:  How do you firmly establish boundaries with your children when you also need to establish them with a soon to be ex-wife, meaning that you need to fight her off in order to do it?  When she is around and sees me establishing boundaries for our children, she seems to break down all the work I've done, and my son then uses this to his advantage and ends up hanging off my--and other parents that I visit--arms again, almost just to be obstinate?  It makes it really hard to get any adult things accomplished when your kids have zero boundaries, and their mother seems to encourage this--no wonder why she went crazy: I can see now that she let them hassle her all day long (e.g., is it sunny outside?  Yes son.  Is it sunny outside?  Yes son.  Is it sunny outside?  [hanging off my arm by this point] Son, why don't you use your imagination and go play with your toys, I'll get you set up?  Is it sunny outside?  Wife: You need to acknowledge him.) 

[BPDdaddy]

I feel almost guilty to say this, but now that my BPD wife and I are separated and I have joint custody, it is almost nice not to have her around--it was like having another child who intervened whenever I tried to establish boundaries for the kids.  I can see now why the children drove her and I crazy when we were trying to make it work.  To her, validating the children meant acknowledging every last comment, or question, that they asked--which would come a mile a minute, and meant that her and I could never communicate. 

I can see now that this has created an environment where our oldest son doesn't understand, or respect, boundaries between him and any adult in the room.  He wants to be enmeshed in everything that the adults are doing, and consistently works to break down boundaries whenever you ask him to go and be independent, to the point where he is eventually hanging off of your arm.  It makes it no easier when my wife is around, because when I ask our son to go and be independent and find something creative to do, she insists that its my job to "validate" everything he says, which again, eventually means that he ends up hanging off of your arm. 

My question:  How do you firmly establish boundaries with your children when you also need to establish them with a soon to be ex-wife, meaning that you need to fight her off in order to do it?  When she is around and sees me establishing boundaries for our children, she seems to break down all the work I've done, and my son then uses this to his advantage and ends up hanging off my--and other parents that I visit--arms again, almost just to be obstinate?  It makes it really hard to get any adult things accomplished when your kids have zero boundaries, and their mother seems to encourage this--no wonder why she went crazy: I can see now that she let them hassle her all day long (e.g., is it sunny outside?  Yes son.  Is it sunny outside?  Yes son.  Is it sunny outside?  [hanging off my arm by this point] Son, why don't you use your imagination and go play with your toys, I'll get you set up?  Is it sunny outside?  Wife: You need to acknowledge him.) 

[Matt]

I'm confused... .  

If you are separated now, why is she around all the time?

Is it your intention to fix the marriage, or end it?

How old are the kids?

[BPDdaddy]

When we separated, I found another place to stay.  This means that I have been visiting--which will end in May--and that when she is there, for whatever amount of time it takes for her to leave while I am with the kids, or whatever amount of time she needs to come in and get something, that she will try to break the boundaries that I am trying to set for the kids.  Basically, whenever I have to come into contact with her and I have the kids, this is when she works to break down any boundary setting--and yes, I will always be open to making the marriage work (problem is that she is so toxic right now, I think the only thing that will be good for us at this point is if she gets out to her own place). 

[BPDdaddy]

The less contact the better . . . yet, she will have plenty of ability to find ample supplies of men to drain, so I have no idea what will happen the less contact I have to have with her. 

[Matt]

So this is a question of how to do the exchange.

You should not enter her home or allow her to enter your home.

One way is to do it at a neutral public place, like McDonalds or the school.  That's what most courts prefer, but some kids don't like to have that scene in public - they may not yet be at peace with the separation and they might prefer to have the exchange in a private place.

I chose to do all the driving, and had that written into our court order, so there is no reason for my ex to even come into my neighborhood.  I did that because she had been physically violent and had made false accusations, so it was much safer if there was never any reason for her to be near my home.  (But we've softened that since.)

When I go to pick up the kids, I call or text them - another subject, but depending on their ages, it might be a good time to get them phones.  They bring their stuff out and we leave.  Same when I drop them off - hugs at the curb, but I never go toward her home.

Being in her home is not just creating this boundary problem you describe.  It's also making you a sitting duck for false accusations - very common in these situations.

How old are the kids?

[BPDdaddy]

They are 4 and 1, the older child is having the hardest time with all of this. 

[Matt]

So you need to create an oasis for them - a place where it's calm, and Dad is in charge and making sure things are OK.

Kids' biggest need is security.  You can't fix their mom or control how she deals with them.  But you can make sure that the exchanges go OK - if needed, have a non-family adult third party present - and above all you can make sure that when they are with you, they feel secure and safe all the time.

A calm, happy home, at least when they're with you.  No focus on their mom - don't talk to her on the phone when the kids are with you, and don't mention her to them.

One thing your wife is more-or-less right about is that little kids need a lot of attention, and when they are both with you, they are sure to compete for your attention.  It's OK to give them lots of attention, especially when you first pick them up - the first hour or so they're sure to want to talk to you.  Arrange so nothing else needs to be dealt with - don't take any calls, or try to watch your TV shows, or work on your computer - set everything aside and focus on the kids.  Later, they will tire out and take a nap or play quietly for awhile, and you can maybe do something, but if you can make them your main focus while they are with you, that will be best, at least now, while they are in this kind of upset phase.

[david]

My ex leat in 2007. We have two boys. At the time they were 4.5 and 8.5 years old. Looking back I think they were very scared and concerned and needed a safe place for them to grow and develop. I found a T to help me stay focused and eventually a new "normal" evolved where mom and dad were not together anymore. That took about two years to get to a point where I felt things would work out for them. After that things got better and better when they were with me. In the beginning we had approx an hour of transition time when they were not themselves. That minimized and is prctically non existent today.

I have rules in my house that work for us and mom does what she does. We only communicate through email and that has been reduced significantly for the better. Mostly about ROFR and holiday schedules.

I was arrested and charged with assault. I was convicted of a summary offense of disorderly conduct. I did nothing wrong and I have a very low opinion of the legal system now. I used to believe telling the truth was all that was needed. I now know that learning the rules of the game and how to play by those rules is the best course of action in the legal arena.

Because of all of the above I have extremely limited actual contact with ex. (school meetings if they can't be separate, doc appointments, etc). I carry an audio recorder with me and a video recorder with me just in case.

I still get emails raging at me about something I am doing wrong or did wrong. I do not respond. If there is something pertaining to the kids I will reply to just that fact and nothing else. I usually use the three sentence rule but there are exceptions.

[BPDdaddy]

Thanks David, I think I should get back to text messages and emails from now on.  She is so unreasonable when I talk to her, no matter what it is that we are talking about. 

[david]

I actually got rid of text messaging because she would send a string of them when she was upset about something. I was not a big user of texting anyway so it wasn't a big deal for me. Remenber, emails are a great way of documenting and I have our court order specify all communication about children is to be through email. I also wrote that once an agreement is reached in an email it can not be changed unless both parties agree in another email. One of the things ex used to do was to agree I could pick the boys up at some time. It was one of her days. When I arrived she would send the older boy out to tell me that mom said his younger brother was sick and that she is taking care of them since she is a nurse. Once I had the court order she tried that and I let her know I would wait until he was dressed and I would take care of them. They both came out and, yea you guessed it, neither one was ill. It took a few of these instances until she stopped doing that. A boundary established and followed through works great.

[david]

I just remebered what my T told me years ago, "Negative engagement is still engagement."

[mamachelle]

from BPDdaddy:

I can see now that this has created an environment where our oldest son doesn't understand, or respect, boundaries between him and any adult in the room.  He wants to be enmeshed in everything that the adults are doing, and consistently works to break down boundaries whenever you ask him to go and be independent, to the point where he is eventually hanging off of your arm.  It makes it no easier when my wife is around, because when I ask our son to go and be independent and find something creative to do, she insists that its my job to "validate" everything he says, which again, eventually means that he ends up hanging off of your arm.  

My question:  How do you firmly establish boundaries with your children when you also need to establish them with a soon to be ex-wife, meaning that you need to fight her off in order to do it?  



Hi BPDdaddy,

I think in addition to what others are saying here... .   I would enroll your  4 year old in pre-school or a few classes and also possibly your 1 year old in a day care if they are not already.

Clingy behavior is normal especially in kids this young. I do see though, that kids who are in day care even part time learn to do better in transitions and when it comes time to go to kindergarten.

I am a working mom to 6-- co-parenting with a BPD mom for my 3 SS for the past 7 years ... .   so I am a firm believer in day care, after school, and all the programs to help kids learn to socialize. Especially with a BPD parent in the mix!

Best,

mamachelle

[david]

Our youngest was 4.5 when all the chaos started big time. He was not in a pre k program. Ex put him in kindergarten and I found out in court. I was adamant that he was not ready for kindergarten. Technically he was old enough at the time but I insisted he was not developmentally ready. The court backed mom 's decision since she was the residential parent. He struggled throughout that year. I talked to his teacher a multitude of times but no one wanted to hear what I had to say. He repeated kindergarten and felt like a failure. I told him he was not ready and would be fine the next year. He excelled the next year but ex insisted he had a learning disabilty. They tested him with no conclusive results. They gave a diagnosis of a reading disabilty and gave him an IEP (individual education plan). I had no real options but to stay focused on his needs. He went to first grade and his teacher questioned why he had an IEP because she didn't see anything to make her think he needed one. Went to second grade and the same thing happened. This time I was able to request (very firmly) that he be tested with all the same tests as before but at his new age. He scored in the top 1% of the entire USA in logic, math, and chemistry. He tested higher in math word problems then arithmetic. This from someone with a reading disability. By that time the school started to get who the problem was. His IEP was dropped and he was put in the accelerated program for third grade. He has straight A's at this point and his teacher uses him to explain things to other students. The school contacts me and we work a plan out. I then have the school contact ex and explain what they believe is best for him. I stay out of it because that would be a fight and not in sons' best interest. Stay focused on the kids needs and things do eventually work out. An additional benefit is both boys trust me. They have learned who to go to for help or advice. We have a great relationship and they are both doing good in school in spite of their mom sabatoging things on them. She actually took away their computer at her place even though they needed it for school. Older son got an Ipad from me and that solved the problem.