He's trying... I'm struggling

[byasliver]

I really appreciate the suggestions, arabella and they help me for future conversations. However, things are escalating with him to a point that I feel he DOES need to leave and after speaking with a crisis assistance person last night and then his T this morning, that feeling was only emphasized. He has been abusive to his dog and both the CA person and his T said I need to take action.  There isn't really anything they can do because he hasn't been physical with myself or the kids but it's been proven so many times that it often starts with pet/animals and escalates to people from there. Actually, as hard as his T was urging me to contact CPS, I have a strong feeling that she may be contacting them herself. I know T's are mandatory reporters. I am going to call them shortly. Just need to take some breaths and get up my nerve. I don't want ME to lose the kids over this but I can't sit around and just wait until he IS physical. He needs help and I almost hate myself for that being a priority in my mind. I have to protect our kids, though. I have to do something.

Btw, I did suggest a Therapeutic Separation last night and, at first he was agreeable which gave me some hope. But then he was saying he would take our son and only let me see him twice a month. That he would maintain control over all the money and only give me an "allowance". He also threw in that I needed to be aware that I may lose insurance coverage to be able to continue seeing my own therapist. When I tried to say I was not comfortable with his having our son all the time and me only getting to see him twice a month his response was that I had to have it all my way and was unwilling to compromise. I know now that he was completely dysregulated at that point but I was lost in hope for the best last night. Nothing I said was responded to with any reason or logic whatsoever. Even when I completely stopped that conversation and just tried to tell him how much I love him and want us to work our issues out, his response was nothing but blame and insults and even to say "You want me gone so that's it." After I just said I wanted us to work out!

I am definitely in Oz eyeball deep!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[arabella]

I really appreciate the suggestions, arabella and they help me for future conversations. However, things are escalating with him to a point that I feel he DOES need to leave and after speaking with a crisis assistance person last night and then his T this morning, that feeling was only emphasized. He has been abusive to his dog and both the CA person and his T said I need to take action.

I'm sure you will have many future conversations. Maybe read over some of the lessons here on bpdfamily.com to help give you better grounding, things will probably get worse before they get better.

It does indeed sound like he needs to leave. Trust yourself. This is not the end - it is a new beginning. If he is getting violent with the dog that is a warning you should heed. Do not wait until you or one of the children gets hurt.

I did suggest a Therapeutic Separation last night and, at first he was agreeable which gave me some hope.

And there is still hope. You can use this as a platform going forward since you know there is some common ground to work with. It isn't the solution, but it may be part of it. Ignore the dysregulation bit for now, I imagine everything is going to trigger him so don't let that throw you off too much.

But then he was saying he would take our son and only let me see him twice a month. That he would maintain control over all the money and only give me an "allowance". He also threw in that I needed to be aware that I may lose insurance coverage to be able to continue seeing my own therapist. When I tried to say I was not comfortable with his having our son all the time and me only getting to see him twice a month his response was that I had to have it all my way and was unwilling to compromise.

Maybe head over to the legal board here and see what people have to say. I'll tell you right now that the likelihood of the above scenario playing out they way your H tells it is pretty much zero. Not going to happen. No court is going to allow that. He won't be allowed to keep the kids from you. Spousal insurance coverage, as far as I've ever seen, always continues through a separation. If he is making these sorts of threats though, you need to speak with a lawyer asap. Know your rights and know what you need to do in order to protect yourself and your kids.

I know now that he was completely dysregulated at that point but I was lost in hope for the best last night. Nothing I said was responded to with any reason or logic whatsoever. Even when I completely stopped that conversation and just tried to tell him how much I love him and want us to work our issues out, his response was nothing but blame and insults and even to say "You want me gone so that's it." After I just said I wanted us to work out!

':)yregulated' and 'logic' just don't go together. I keep trying it myself and it just ends in tears (mine). It's SO FRUSTRATING - so I know where you're coming from! Just remember, YOU make sense, HE has a mental illness and you can't talk through that. Really, there isn't even any point in trying to have a conversation if he's dysregulated, he won't hear what you're saying, he'll only hear what he feels (as you discovered).

Step back, take a deep breath, get your ducks in a row and make sure your needs and your kids needs are met. There will be time to work things out with your H, but that is going to be a long process and he is going to need to calm down and re-regulate first.

[byasliver]

I called his T and mine this morning. My T hasn't called me back but I had a long conversation with his T. She was really sweet and encouraged me to call DSS. She may have called as well since she is a mandatory reporter. Anyway, so I called but DSS only gave me two choices: leave and file for divorce or file a report with them. I do not have enough of my own money to leave indefinitely and divorce is still NOT what I want. I want help for H. So I filed a report. Hardest thing I've ever done. Not sure what will happen. Just waiting now.

I also placed a call to the Animal Welfare dept but was on the phone with DSS when they called back. They left a message saying they would call me back.

Now, I'm just praying and hoping.

[arabella]

I'm sorry things are so hard for you right now. I know how awful it is when doing the right thing hurts so much.

You ARE doing the right things. Please consider getting in touch with a family lawyer - you likely have more options than you think. A lawyer can help you navigate the system, get support and custody orders in place, show you different paths, etc. Again, you might want to check the legal board on here as they might have more specific advice for you as well.

Keep posting here, hopefully we can offer you some support so that you don't feel so alone.

[byasliver]

Thanks. Most lawyers around here require a fee for even a consultation and I'd have to use our joint account. That would set him off. DSS told me to call Legal Aid which I did but haven't heard back. Since it's Friday, I kinda don't think I'll hear from them till next week.

I did post a question in the Legal board but no response. I'm just so frustrated right now about the laws. I can't FORCE him to leave without a lawyer but I can't really get access to our money without setting him off. And the law won't step in because he hasn't been PHYSICALLY abusive. They even told me they may not do anything about the verbal abuse of the kids! So I'm stuck in a lot of ways.  My one saving grace is that his therapist has seen his behavior and DSS said they may call her.

Btw, I know this will be no surprise to anyone but he is acting like everything is completely fine today.

[arabella]

Ugh! Yes, really tough spot to be in. Perhaps try calling a few lawyers offices and explaining the problem to see if there is anything they can do to temporarily waive their consultation fee? I know that lawyers around here often waive fees temporarily for people in situations such as yours. Legal Aid would be good but, you're right, you'll likely have to wait until next week to hear back. I know you're stressed to the max right now (rightfully so!) but do you think you can lay low for the weekend? Hopefully you'll get some good feedback over on the legal board too. Hang in there!

[byasliver]

do you think you can lay low for the weekend?

That is exactly what I intend to do. My oldest daughter has her first prom this weekend so there will be lots of activity to keep me busy. I only got about two hours sleep last night and have been too busy to nap today. Still have tons to do but later this evening I plan to go to bed early then just enjoy the festivities with my daughter tomorrow.

I live in a small town and have asked many long time residents about lawyers who might waive consultation fees but never got positive answers. If I don't hear back from someone (DSS or Legal Aid), I may just make some calls Monday.

[byasliver]

Unfortunately DSS here apparently doesn't consider lots of yelling, name calling and insults to be abuse. Just got the call that they aren't going to do anything.

[byasliver]

Just spoke with his T again and she is advising me to contact a lawyer at this point for my protection and the kids. She agreed with me that it's crazy that my only other option is to wait until he does physical harm or serious emotional harm to me or the kids. But be aware folks, no agency will help you PREVENT abuse - they will only step in after the damage is done!

[4now]

Hello,

I am confused... .   why did you file a report with DSS?  What did it say and what was the purpose?  Lots of yelling may not be a problem for DSS in theory, but what if a neighbor called the police? Are you hoping they will see him unfit to be in the house?  What if the finger is pointed at you somehow?

I agree that you 100% need to protect yourself and your kids, but what leads you to believe he will be violent with you or them?  Has something happened?  I would be very hesitant to get DSS involved as they could remove your children from your care as well as his.  Of course, if it is determined that is in the best interest of the children, then so be it.  But isn't there another alternative?  Remove yourself and your kids from the situation.  Prepare for this possibility.  

Or remove him from the situation.  If he begins with his verbal abuse, you don't have to stick around for it.  You can leave or you can ask him to leave.  If that situation escalates, you can certainly call the police then. Then there will be a record of his abuse and he can be kept out of the house temporarily, I would imagine.  

I understand you don't want to separate from him and want him to get help, that is very admirable.  But you need to look at the situation for what it is.  Maybe he needs a wake-up call.  Maybe he needs to see that you won't be pushed around any more.  He is being a big, big bully-mental illness or not.  You don't have to put up with that.  So far it sounds like he is not putting forth much effort and is threatening you with various things, ie not seeing your son and losing your therapy.  He needs to see that behavior is not okay.  Only you can show him that.  

[jedicloak]

I understand you don't want to separate from him and want him to get help, that is very admirable.  But you need to look at the situation for what it is. Maybe he needs to see that you won't be pushed around any more.  He is being a big, big bully-mental illness or not. You don't have to put up with that. He needs to see that behavior is not okay. Only you can show him that.  

I stumbled across this thread and it is close to home in many ways. I have a question.

How will you feel if you continue doing what you're doing (waiting on H to change, acknowledge, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah... .   ) and your children and/or you pay the price for your indecision? They will live what they learn from your example. And I don't have to be a doctor to tell you that your stress level is through the roof... .   which can't be good for the mother of your children. When is it your time and your children's time?

Based on what you've accepted so far (just from what you've told us on this forum), he doesn't have to be responsible. Why should he? You take care of everything, solve everything, run yourself ragged calling this person, that person, making excuses after excuses. He has to put up with your nagging (for a little while), but then you stop and go away or just ignore him. He still gets to do what he wants. Drop his classes, play games and spy on you. What exactly is his incentive to change anything? What are you gonna do, threaten him? Yeah, I can see he's really scared.

The power is yours. Not his. But you keep giving it back to him. And he's happy as a clam. You're miserable. Whose behavior is working in this situation?

No judgment intended. I live in your world too. And I ask myself the same question every single, solitary day. In fact, typing this out, helped me clarify my feelings about my life too. Looking at my life through your words is eye opening. Thank you for sharing!

[byasliver]

jedicloak, I've read some of your posts so I know you don't intend judgement. It's easy to be on the outside looking in and see what those too close don't see... .   and sometimes that helps us see our own situation more clearly. You have definitely given me lots to think about today. I need to take some time later, get in a quiet, peaceful place and really sort out my thoughts. I need to REALLY absorb the fact that he is mentally ill and all that it means: some people I love dearly may never accept or believe that, some will blame me because of that, some will rally around me, some will rally around him, he may NEVER improve, he may improve some but not enough for me, etc, etc. etc. Then I need to clearly decide on a plan of action and intent for my own future. But first, tonight my oldest daughter has her first prom! She's a great kid and has a super sweet bf. Tonight is going to be so special and I'm soo excited for them! It's going to be a fun day of all the girly stuff that getting ready for prom entails!

One note, after spending most of the day acting like everything was perfectly fine, uBPDh stomped downstairs last night and was then rummaging through the kitchen. (I sleep in the living room and was trying to sleep then.) After a few minutes he barks my name. I asked, "what?" and he said "WHERE IS MY BOTTLE OPENER?" (He has lost a bottle opener recently and keeps assuming I did something with it. I do drink wine occasionally but my wine of choice lately has been one with a twist top-no need for a bottle opener.) I repeated that I don't know where it is and laid back down. He kicked, slammed some cabinet doors, etc. then walked off. This morning I discovered what it was he was trying to do: open a bottle of wine that is a few years old and not one he is very fond of. The bottle was bought mostly for me and for sentimental value. Pretty clear sign to me that he didn't just WANT a drink but NEEDED one. But I also think there is more. The day before he had gone to lunch with some old friends of ours. They bought me a dessert I really love and sent it home with him for me. I intended to eat it the next morning for breakfast (it's more of a pastry than a dessert.) Well, when I went to get it from the fridge, it was gone. He admitted eating it because, "I didn't think you wanted it." I had done nothing to indicate that! Anyway, so what I'm seeing is more projection (some recent things he's said) and, I guess, well, I don't know of a good word for it. He is taking/consuming things that were nice gestures/gifts for me. I really see a lot of dysregulation and unravelling on his part lately. Now... .   to decide what to do about it. I know that one thing I am going to do is get back to keeping a journal/log of his behaviors. It is a difficult habit for me to stick to but I know it's necessary right now. It helps me keep a clearer picture in my own head of what is happening.

[byasliver]

jedicloak, just read another post where someone pointed out to you the things you pointed out to me. I'm smiling because, this might sound silly, I'm proud of you! You really showed some personal growth in recognizing those things you pointed out to me and then used it to try to help me. Yeah, this is the teacher in me coming out. Still, I think that's wonderful and hope things are improving for you. If not, I hope this virtual pat on the back brightens your day at least a little! 

[arabella]

I don't have anything really constructive to add right now, I think you have a lot to think about already! I just wanted to wish your daughter a happy prom and tell you to enjoy the festivities - sounds like so much fun!

[jedicloak]

Thank you for the kind words - I really appreciate it! Hope Prom is fantastically fun for all involved.

You sleep in the living room too! This is my world.

Take care.

[byasliver]

Just an update: daughter and I have been having a blast this afternoon getting her ready for the prom and tonight after she leaves my bestie (who lives right across the street from me) is coming over and we are going to hang out in my attic - I created a small space for me to "hide out" up there and we love going up there! We feel like high schoolers sneaking around to smoke and drink! 

uBPDh walked through the living room a little while ago talking to our son about where THEY were going to go eat tonight. I just ignored it and continued having fun with my daughter. About 30 minutes later, uBPDh asked me if I wanted to go with them or if I wanted him to bring something back. I very nicely asked for him to bring something back for me and told him that I plan to hang out in the attic with my friend later (he doesn't even know about the attic space - I created the space while he was out of town recently and it just hasn't come up). He just shrugged and said, "Ok." Seriously, this being "detached with love" is GREAT! Really wish I'd figured this out sooner!

[byasliver]

Another update: daughter and her date were gorgeous and had a blast at prom! After they left, I enjoyed a quiet evening alone in my little attic space hideaway!

I've really spent a lot of time last night and today reading over many of the tools and lessons and it's helping tremendously! This morning, uBPDh was complaining about something that didn't make sense. At first, I was JADEing but when I realized it, I just didn't say anything more. After some time to cool off, I asked him to explain it again. He resisted at first saying, "I tried to explain it but you didn't listen." I answered that I really did want to understand. He explained again (still didn't really make sense) but I offered a solution to what he was complaining about. He said, "ok" and that was it! The whole thing defused and worked out. 

[arabella]

Thanks so much for the updates! I'm so happy that your daughter enjoyed her prom (and you did too)!

That's fantastic that the lessons and posts are helping. It's really like a whole new world of information, isn't it?

Sounds like you're moving in the right direction. I'm not trying to be critical, what you did obviously worked, I'm just going to touch on one thing you said in case the issue arises in the future... .  

He explained again (still didn't really make sense) but I offered a solution to what he was complaining about. He said, "ok" and that was it!

Sometimes (not necessarily in this case) offering a 'solution' backfires. Just be prepared for those instances. Often the key is to validate and then allow the pwBPD to find their own solution. There's a two-fold rationale for this: 1) sometimes offering a solution seems invalidating to a pwBPD; and 2) pwBPD need to learn to self-soothe and find their own answers. We often play the role of 'fixers' in the lives of our loved ones with BPD, this not only will burn us out in the long run but it also enables them (to not take responsibility for themselves and to remain 'stuck' in some of their BPD traits).

So glad that things are improving for you, byasliver - keep up the good work!  

[byasliver]

The only reason I offered a solution was because the solution he had previously suggested was unreasonable and concerned our kids. I gave a suggestion that was much more reasonable and I tried to make it a "suggestion" but also be firm about it. Kinda like walking a fine line between offering a solution and setting a boundary... .   if that makes sense.

I really do feel like we are moving in the right direction and it is showing. There have been other minor incidents today that were quickly defused. I swear, it's like he keeps "testing" me because he RARELY has this much interaction with me in one day and it's only lunchtime! I can't say if "WE" turned a corner but I know I did. Right now, the tools are working but I know if he doesn't continue therapy and begin to do his own work, it's only a matter of time before the tools no longer work. I am prepared if that does or doesn't happen. Just working on me and letting the rest sort itself out.

[arabella]

The only reason I offered a solution was because the solution he had previously suggested was unreasonable and concerned our kids. I gave a suggestion that was much more reasonable and I tried to make it a "suggestion" but also be firm about it. Kinda like walking a fine line between offering a solution and setting a boundary... .   if that makes sense.

It absolutely makes sense. Of course, pwBPD often don't make sense... .   but that's a whole other ball of wax! My H has been coming up with all kinds of completely ridiculous things lately - totally unreasonable and impractical (if not impossible). I've mostly given up on suggesting anything better though as he just takes it as criticism and can't actually 'hear' the points I'm making. Really frustrating. Definitely worse if there are kids involved as you clearly can't just let him go ahead and make inappropriate decisions that affect them!

I really do feel like we are moving in the right direction and it is showing. There have been other minor incidents today that were quickly defused. I swear, it's like he keeps "testing" me because he RARELY has this much interaction with me in one day and it's only lunchtime! I can't say if "WE" turned a corner but I know I did. Right now, the tools are working but I know if he doesn't continue therapy and begin to do his own work, it's only a matter of time before the tools no longer work. I am prepared if that does or doesn't happen. Just working on me and letting the rest sort itself out.

I think you have a lot of good insight into this dynamic. You're right, you can only work on your own 'stuff' and let go of the rest of it. I'm happy to hear you have plans either way - that's exactly what you need! You sound so much more confident and calm since your first posts here.

[byasliver]

I definitely feel better! And it's quite clear he's testing us today. He just went into the kitchen and started loudly grumbling about the "___ing gross" dishes in the sink that he says my daughters left. I corrected him that those dishes came from our son's room (uBPDh cleaned that room today and found several moldy cups/dishes). He responded, "That's not what I'm talking about! I'm talking about the bowl with noodles in it. It's ___ing gross!" Ok, that was just put in the sink by my daughter a couple of hours ago - it was her lunch so not moldy or even old! I mean, it's seriously laughable that he would be talking about THAT being gross but the SEVERAL moldy dishes he put in the sink are okay! We're also talking about the same man who has lately made a habit of burping/farting as he is walking past my daughters and me when we are eating! The first time it happened, I thought it truly was an accident but after the third time in a row, it became obvious he was doing it on purpose. I could list many other things: rarely washing the dog or cleaning up after it then letting it roll around on the bed daily, rarely showering, etc. I know it's projection... .   it's still annoying as heck!

These are only two incidents of MANY today. I am soo worn out trying to remember/use the tools and to not let things get to me. If anyone has any suggestions for how to deal with these incidents I'd appreciate it. Right now, I'm mostly trying to ignore them when I can. I only speak up when I have no choice (like earlier when it would have a direct affect on the kids).

[Rockylove]

Right now, I'm mostly trying to ignore them when I can. I only speak up when I have no choice (like earlier when it would have a direct affect on the kids).

Sounds like a viable plan!  I know all the little things tend to become big things, but keep in mind that you are irritated with his over-all behavior at the moment.  Maybe make a list of his positive attributes? 

It does seem that they will "test" every last nerve.  My bf will burp as loudly as he can while I'm on the phone with a client.  Yes... .   it absolutely irritates me and it's unnecessary and I've told him as much.  He hasn't done it lately, but he did it often enough in the past to make me want to scream. 

[byasliver]

Ugh! I know it's a part of the needing attention but it's still so annoying! My oldest daughter was very challenging when she was a toddler and I read a GREAT book called "How to Raise an Active Alert Child." It taught me so much about dealing with attention negative seeking behavior. Just need to remember those lessons now... .   for my adult husband! 

I actually found a great site that lists over 100 behaviors common with mentally ill people and gives lists for what to do/not do for each behavior. I'm putting all of those on index cards along with all the tools from here like SET and DEARMAN then I'll have them for quick reference and for studying. Just making the cards is teaching me a lot!

How are you doing, RL? Hoping today is a good day for you and yours. 

[jedicloak]

I read a GREAT book called "How to Raise an Active Alert Child." It taught me so much about dealing with attention negative seeking behavior.

For those of you following my drama - here is the readers digest of the past 24 hours. I had a complete emotional meltdown last night after meeting with my counselor. I considered the notion of ending this relationship. I told BPDw this as well. As a result, she said something that ties in perfectly with you just wrote... .   wife admitted (painfully) that a lot of the behaviors/tendencies/choices she makes is to get negative attention because that's what she's used to (even though I have BENT in half in 8 years trying to treat her well). I can't love her to healing. She also said she exaggerates a lot of the negative symptoms of her disorder to keep "being sick" because she's not held accountable and gets attention (even if it's negative). I'm still processing all of this.

[byasliver]

Go easy on yourself and allow yourself all the time you need to process her revelation. Sounds like a pretty incredible break-through, though. I know you must be feeling so many mixed emotions, though. 

[arabella]

I actually found a great site that lists over 100 behaviors common with mentally ill people and gives lists for what to do/not do for each behavior. I'm putting all of those on index cards along with all the tools from here like SET and DEARMAN then I'll have them for quick reference and for studying. Just making the cards is teaching me a lot!

Flash cards - what a great idea! Hope you won't mind if I steal that from you. Do you think you could post a link to the site you mentioned? I would be interested to see what's there.

She also said she exaggerates a lot of the negative symptoms of her disorder to keep "being sick" because she's not held accountable and gets attention (even if it's negative). I'm still processing all of this.

Ah, so your suspicions regarding this were correct then. That's a lot to take in. Try to think positive here though - this is new information that could help you to move forward. I hope you'll keep us updated with how things are going for you, jedicloak. Processing this sort of stuff is always difficult, I hope you'll find some of the support you need here.

[Grey Kitty]

I had a complete emotional meltdown last night after meeting with my counselor. I considered the notion of ending this relationship. I told BPDw this as well. As a result, she said something that ties in perfectly with you just wrote... .   wife admitted (painfully) that a lot of the behaviors/tendencies/choices she makes is to get negative attention because that's what she's used to (even though I have BENT in half in 8 years trying to treat her well). I can't love her to healing. She also said she exaggerates a lot of the negative symptoms of her disorder to keep "being sick" because she's not held accountable and gets attention (even if it's negative). I'm still processing all of this.

Yeah, that rates a lot of processing. Here's a couple helpful thought while you process:

The fact that she realizes she is doing it is a step toward stopping doing it. 

The fact that she trusted you enough to admit to it to you is a second step in that direction. 

These are both real steps... .   and even if there is up and down which follows, at least it is moving in the right direction. Especially since it sounds like something you've not heard from her before.

Here's hoping for more progress!

[jedicloak]

Yeah, some of those things I have heard in the 8 years of marriage - but somehow, someway, the truth was mired in the language of "disorders, trauma, diagnoses, etc, etc, etc." The truth of what is really going on may emerge or may once again hide. I wrote a long letter to BPDw and let her know I don't want her back her for a few more months while I continue healing and that I hope she will work on her inability to be truthful. IF both of those things are successful... .   then maybe... .   there is a chance to build a new foundation for marriage. We'll see. She says she'll accept my decision, but doesn't like it. We'll see if she will choose to abide by it. I've come to a point where I have no problem taking the hard line if necessary.

Side note: all of you on this forum are awesome! Very helpful.

[byasliver]

I envy your resolve, jedicloak. I wish I could be so strong with my uBPDh. I have an appointment with my T this morning and hoping I feel better after that. I think this is just one of those days when I'm so tired of doing 100% of the work in this relationship while getting zero credit but 100% blame.

[jedicloak]

I envy your resolve, jedicloak. I wish I could be so strong with my uBPDh. I have an appointment with my T this morning and hoping I feel better after that. I think this is just one of those days when I'm so tired of doing 100% of the work in this relationship while getting zero credit but 100% blame.

Sorry to hear you're so worn out - I am too - so I really empathize  :'(

My actions are about self preservation. Please take care of you.