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Author Topic: How compatable is a BPD EX with a Narcissist  (Read 2200 times)
swimjim
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« on: April 16, 2013, 11:58:12 AM »

My ex BPD girlfriend is now in a 4 month rebound relationship with my ex buddy who is a narcissist. (can you tell)? How compatable can they be. All he thinks of is himself with no regards for other's feelings. She has her obvious issues. Will she ever miss what we had in our 3 years together?
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sunrising
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2013, 03:08:44 PM »

Well, since my ex was diagnosed with BPD traits, she has accused me of being NPD a few times (my therapist wholeheartedly disagrees with this assessment).  But, if my ex is right and I suffer from NPD, I can tell you we were ultimately very incompatible. 

My belief is that a pwBPD or fairly strong BPD traits isn't really "compatible" with much anyone; certainly not in the sense that they can have a mature, healthy, respectful, intimate relationship.  A pwBPD's issues with fear of abandonment, shame, guilt, etc are a result of their FOO. I don't believe there's any type of partner who can come along and "fix" this; whether that partner is NPD, BPD, or no PD (unless, of course, that new someone is also a professional BPD therapist disguising themselves as a partner).     

Are you concerned that your ex may go on to have a wonderful relationship with this new person?  If so, I can tell you that nothing I've read or learned suggests that can just magically happen for a pwBPD, regardless of the new partner.  It seems to me that it takes an incredibly patient and understanding person to have a lasting relationship with a pwBPD (let alone a truly healthy one)... . , and even then, they can't fix the pwBPD.  If the new partner is narcissistic, this would suggest limited capacity for patience and understanding, so I doubt that would be a very good match.


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swimjim
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2013, 11:34:19 AM »

Thank you Sunrising. Do you ever catch yourself wanting 100 % guarantee that your ex is BPD even though she fits 80% of the criteria. I don't know if she was ever diagnosed and I only came into knowing about BPD after she went to the police and filed a false police report because I finally bought her the ring she was always nagging about over the last 3 years. If I was more definite she was BPD, it might be easier for me to let go knowing that no matter what I would have done, the same result would have happened. I carry a lot of guilt right now " woulda, coulda, shoulda. I struggle with this.
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sunrising
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2013, 12:26:30 PM »

Many of us struggle with wanting a diagnosis or label on our ex.  My ex was diagnosed as having BPD traits.  She handles her job and friends very well.  Our relationship was a disaster in ways I'm sure you're familiar with.

You will probably never get a confirmation or diagnosis, but since you're here you know there were things which werent healthy.   Here's the point I've come to: it doesn't matter what kind of diagnosis my ex has or doesn't have.  If  the term "Borderline Personality Disorder" was erased from existence or never existed, it wouldn't change a thing about her condition or behavior.   The facts don't change even if the terminology does. 
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imstronghere2
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2013, 12:53:17 PM »

My ex BPD girlfriend is now in a 4 month rebound relationship with my ex buddy who is a narcissist. (can you tell)? How compatable can they be. All he thinks of is himself with no regards for other's feelings. She has her obvious issues. Will she ever miss what we had in our 3 years together?

I spent WAY too many hours agonizing over that very thing.  My exwBPD ended up marrying the NPD she was having her affair with almost a year to the day after we were divorced.  I'm 1 1/2 years out from my divorce, after 19 years married, 22 years total together and what I can tell you now is  ----  I don't care anymore.  I honestly hope they're happy together forever because that will mean that I'll never have to deal with her again.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

Will she miss what we had or will yours miss what you had?   If they are truly BPD, then the answer to that is possibly but the real question should be "for how long?"   It would be fleeting at best.  Imagine a toggle switch in their head that they can flip to "off".  That's how it works for looking back.  Just "off".   Simple as that.  Almost impossible for us to comprehend but that's how it is with them.  Not all will be like that of course but mine sure as hell was.

Just today I had lunch with a very close friend who was there when my r/s started, who was there when we got married and who was there for me when the crap hit the fan in 2011.  He knows better than anyone other than myself and my kids, how things were through the years.  I told him today that I felt like sending the exwBPD a "Thank You" card.  There's some things that I'm accomplishing with my life now that I never would have been able to if she would still be involved in my life.  Things that were just a dream before but now they're really happening. 

Stay focused on you and you'll find that you'll get that back in your life also.  Then hopefully you'll also be at that point where you couldn't care less what she's doing, or whom.    Being cool (click to insert in post)

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seeking balance
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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2013, 01:12:40 PM »

There are books and articles written about the BPD/NPD dynamic. 

Here is one: https://bpdfamily.com/book_review/joan_lachkar.htm

Here is some info for you - and if you have not read 2010's body of work, I strongly suggest this in understanding more about yourself, BPD and mental illness in general.

There is a wealth of material that discusses the variety of shapes and forms these two personalities can take- especially concerning their differences and their bonds to one another.  Joan Lakhar Ph.D has been writing on this subject for many years, even before the advent of the Internet.

bpdfamily.com/book_review/joan_lachkar.htm

Contrary to popular belief, Narcissists and Borderlines are not evil or untreatable, they just need to make sense of their behavior if they wish to accept reality. Making sense of the behavior is what object relations theory (Klein) and the psychology of the “Self” (Kohut) is all about.  

Lakhar makes a point to defuse stigmatization with “although I use the terms borderline and narcissism as distinct entities, neither disorder is the same across individuals or even in an individual over time. Discussion would be impossible, however, without making certain abstract distinctions between them in order to frame the conflict.”

Rather than lumping them into one big wastebasket of broken humanity as a statistic, Lakhar realized that the anxiety of this arrested behavior each person experiences is as different as snowflakes, but these differences must be respected as qualitative differences in order to be assessed.

In her theory, Lakhar felt that Narcissists were more concerned with mirroring that was “Self”-directed while Borderlines were more concerned with becoming a part of something = “Object”-directed.

The Narcissist has been taught that they must be closed off and carefully protected from engulfment by others- and he/she inflates in much the same way a puffer fish does for protection. The Borderline is more like a remora, a clinging, parasitic, part-self, other-directed persona that seeks to attach and go along for the ride.

The real construct here is the extent to which people control or allow themselves to be controlled by others.

There are so many people who are brilliant theorists that it would be a shame not to at least delve into one or two of the ideas about arrested development to see where the origin of the problem begins.

James F. Masterson spent 40 years of his life detailing the differential diagnosis of Narcissism and Borderline and even went so far as to contribute a differential diagnosis on their high and low functions. In his 1981 book, the “Narcissistic and Borderline Disorders” he details many case studies and differentiates the developmental theory of both personality types as well as treatment outlines.  

Borderline failure to separate/individuate during the pre-oedipal period causes a lifelong view of “other-directed” actions. The same is true for Narcissists; however, Narcissists “subsume” others into their intrapsychic World as extensions while Borderlines (part-time selves) fuse to others in the mistaken belief that they will become whole persons.

Both partners wear masks of “false selves” to hide their vulnerable true selves. Narcissists are gullible, and instead of seeing their perfect “false self” reflection in the Borderline as fraudulent, they believe that they have found a fellow narcissist who shares their World view and compunction for perfection.

Both partners present themselves as misunderstood in life and now share each other’s World view- but the Borderline does this as a Trojan horse offering in order to slip inside the Narcissists protective outer. The Narcissist unwittingly subsumes the Borderline as a part of themselves and gives rarely allowed access- thinking that the Borderline has the same protective outer that demands rigid rules for membership. Alas, not only does the Borderline *not* know these rules- they cannot even try to implement them- and the Narcissist becomes aware of dis*ease* between them (a.k.a. red flags of odd behavior) Something clicks in the Narcissist, that this person really wasn’t who they said they were and control issues arise when the Narcissist tries to get the Borderline back in line with the idealized self that was initially presented. When this fails (as it always does) the anxiety turns persecutory for the borderline and the Narcissist withdraws.

Eventually, the Narcissist comes to a painful process of understanding that the borderline actually mirrored the Narcissist and the Narcissist actually mirrored their own self.  Judging the amount of shame that arises during Smear campaigns, distortion, and the blame game are all narcissistic injuries in the aftermath of the broken mirror.  (Note: One does not need to have Narcissistic Personality Disorder to have narcissistic traits. Narcissistic traits can be healthy unless they subsume others.)

Fortunately there are many books that stay away from the stigmatization of the “all or none” characteristics to personalities- these books concentrate on the quality of behavior instead.  Schema therapy by Jeffrey Young Ph.D, was created n 1994.  It is a beautifully modern interpretation of the diagnostic manual which applies to everyone who struggles with abandonment, mistrust and abuse, dependence, vulnerability, emotional deprivation, social exclusion, defectiveness, failure, subjugation, unrelenting standards and entitlement. These eleven "lifetraps" are lifelong patterns or themes that replicate the DSM diagnostics. They are self-destructive personality traits and yet they struggle for survival. The end result is that we manage to recreate the conditions of our childhood that was most harmful to us because we are familiar with the feelings.

Young’s theory is tightly woven into a structured, systematic model of therapy themes, called Schema.  Both Narcissists and Borderline personalities are behaviorally dissected in a way that shows distinct differences to how they view themselves and how to approach them in treatment. Add that to the 30 year old Masterson approach and the treatment options keep encouraging people to get at what ails them in talk therapy.  The understanding of the wants and needs of people vs. fantasy/reality is confronted.  The end result is reality testing and truth.

There are, unfortunately, a plethora of books and blogs that do stigmatize, born out of frustrating personal events and without much introspective clarity for the whys and hows of getting involved with the Borderline or Narcissistic personality and the reasons for continuing to stay with them. (Yes, there are reasons.) According to Joan Lachkar, “it’s not that people are crazy, it’s just that each partner stirs up some un-developmental issue in the other that desperately needs to be worked through.”

In 1988, James F. Masterson M.D. released his brilliant analysis, “The Search for the Real Self, Unmasking the Personality disorders of our age.” In the preface he writes: “This negative attitude about the difficulties of successfully treating borderline and narcissistic patients survives to the day in many areas where therapists have not become aware of the newer discoveries. It often continues to be the prevailing attitude in lay circles and in the media, which is one of the important reasons I wrote this book. Not all, but many patients, given the proper therapeutic support, can and will overcome their developmental problems and their real selves will emerge.” ~ Masterson

Masterson knew that we all had bits and pieces of maladaptive coping mechanisms- and a little bit of family history went a long way toward understanding, but it wasn't all or none.  There was a possibility of acceptance and change.

Lachkar’s “The narcissistic/borderline couple: new approaches to marital therapy.” is now in its second printing.  “Listen for the theme,” Lackhar says. “At the core of the dynamic flow between narcissistic/borderline partners is a duel between omnipotence and vulnerability.”   One partner withdraws and the other chases, one partner closes in (engulfment) and the other flees… Both people are desperate for love but unable to trust it.  It is a dance. Again, The real construct here is the extent to which people control or allow themselves to be controlled by others.

Investigating and treating the behavior of both parties offers less stigmatization of the separate personalities and more treatment avenues - and this is what the Masterson institute, Jeffrey Young and Joan Lachkar specialize in.

Whether it’s object relations therapy, or Self psychology or Schema therapy, there is no such thing as a NON.  We are all human beings and we all need to work on our separate issues in the aftermath of the relationship. Understanding your partner’s negative life patterns will allow you to see your own- Young calls these self defeating maladaptive coping mechanisms “lifetraps” and he even has information on his website. It’s not enough to turn your back on a Borderline- you have to confront your reasons for being attracted to this cipher in the first place.  Young’s book, “Reinventing your life” is also a good start.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

amazon.com/James-F.-Masterson

amazon.com/Schema-Therapy-Practitioners-Jeffrey-Young

amazon.com/Reinventing-Your-Life-Breakthough-Behavior

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causticdork
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2013, 01:18:40 PM »

Many of us struggle with wanting a diagnosis or label on our ex.  My ex was diagnosed as having BPD traits.  She handles her job and friends very well.  Our relationship was a disaster in ways I'm sure you're familiar with.

You will probably never get a confirmation or diagnosis, but since you're here you know there were things which werent healthy.   Here's the point I've come to: it doesn't matter what kind of diagnosis my ex has or doesn't have.  If  the term "Borderline Personality Disorder" was erased from existence or never existed, it wouldn't change a thing about her condition or behavior.   The facts don't change even if the terminology does. 

I think it helps a little though, to know WHY.  For a lot of us it's the closest thing we'll ever get to closure.  Maybe it's just me, but finding this board and learning about BPD made a huge difference in my ability to deal with my ex because up until I found out about this disorder I just didn't understand at all.  I think getting a formal diagnosis helps, because then we know for sure that their behavior has a defined reason behind it.  In a relationship where logic goes out the window, it's nice to have some new logic to apply to it.
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VeryFree
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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2013, 01:20:44 PM »

Well, since my ex was diagnosed with BPD traits, she has accused me of being NPD a few times (my therapist wholeheartedly disagrees with this assessment).  But, if my ex is right and I suffer from NPD, I can tell you we were ultimately very incompatible. 

Hey, this was my answer to swimjim 

Seriously: it is litterally my story.

I think it's correct that a BPD can not fit anybody. Well, not for a longer period.
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Hurt llama
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2013, 02:20:51 PM »

I find the thread title to be funny (no offense).

How compatible is ANY BPD with ANYONE is the question, no less a NPD person.

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imstronghere2
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2013, 02:54:43 PM »

I find the thread title to be funny (no offense).

How compatible is ANY BPD with ANYONE is the question, no less a NPD person.

You would think so, wouldn't you?  But my exwBPD jumped into it with her NPD immediately upon meeting him.   Her excuse - "we had chemistry".      And now they're married.  So go figure.
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swimjim
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« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2013, 11:27:19 AM »

Both partners present themselves as misunderstood in life and now share each other’s World view- but the Borderline does this as a Trojan horse offering in order to slip inside the Narcissists protective outer. The Narcissist unwittingly subsumes the Borderline as a part of themselves and gives rarely allowed access- thinking that the Borderline has the same protective outer that demands rigid rules for membership. Alas, not only does the Borderline *not* know these rules- they cannot even try to implement them- and the Narcissist becomes aware of dis*ease* between them (a.k.a. red flags of odd behavior) Something clicks in the Narcissist, that this person really wasn’t who they said they were and control issues arise when the Narcissist tries to get the Borderline back in line with the idealized self that was initially presented. When this fails (as it always does) the anxiety turns persecutory for the borderline and the Narcissist withdraws.

Eventually, the Narcissist comes to a painful process of understanding that the borderline actually mirrored the Narcissist and the Narcissist actually mirrored their own self.  Judging the amount of shame that arises during Smear campaigns, distortion, and the blame game are all narcissistic injuries in the aftermath of the broken mirror.  (Note: One does not need to have Narcissistic Personality Disorder to have narcissistic traits. Narcissistic traits can be healthy unless they subsume others.)

According to the above paragraphs, eventually the BPD will get the boot from the narcissist. In essence, my ex BPD will her walking papers from my buddy. I know you are all going to say who cares. Maybe my wounded inner child self wants justice for both of them. Of course I am curious how long it will take before this happens. 
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Hurt llama
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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2013, 01:17:28 PM »

I find the thread title to be funny (no offense).

How compatible is ANY BPD with ANYONE is the question, no less a NPD person.

You would think so, wouldn't you?  But my exwBPD jumped into it with her NPD immediately upon meeting him.   Her excuse - "we had chemistry".      And now they're married.  So go figure.

NEver said that couldn't rebound with the best of em... .   but how long's it gonna last?
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