How's it going with BPD ex husbands?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

"like the other day he let my teenage daughter miss school during exam week to go to an amusement park. "

Things like this are probably a major part of them wanting to stay with him.It's not popular being a "parent" when the other is their "buddy" who lets them do what they want.Kids know how to play the parents break up to their advantage.

[marbleloser]

"like the other day he let my teenage daughter miss school during exam week to go to an amusement park. "

Things like this are probably a major part of them wanting to stay with him.It's not popular being a "parent" when the other is their "buddy" who lets them do what they want.Kids know how to play the parents break up to their advantage.

[bcomingme]

I am trying to be patient and understanding with the whole situation but it is so hard... . its heartbreaking not to be with my girls. We've always been so close... . but I think you are right that they feel like they need to stay with him to "help" him. My oldest daughter is cooking and cleaning and actually working and helping HIM pay bills... . (she's 17). They feel sorry for him because he is really good at getting people to feel sorry for him. I am hoping she goes away to college to get away from it all and get a clear mind. He works late hours and my youngest is literally running the town with no supervision. I have to check facebook to see where she is!

[momtara]

Sounds like you really care about them and put them before yourself.  You are a good mom.  In the end, that's what will matter.

[bcomingme]

My girls really are everything to me... . I just want the best for them... . whatever that means... . I'm trying to get along with their dad and make the right choices... . its just so hard dealing with him... .

[livednlearned]

I am trying to be patient and understanding with the whole situation but it is so hard... . its heartbreaking not to be with my girls. We've always been so close... . but I think you are right that they feel like they need to stay with him to "help" him. My oldest daughter is cooking and cleaning and actually working and helping HIM pay bills... . (she's 17). They feel sorry for him because he is really good at getting people to feel sorry for him. I am hoping she goes away to college to get away from it all and get a clear mind. He works late hours and my youngest is literally running the town with no supervision. I have to check facebook to see where she is!

Can you help them understand what codependence is? They're going to end up picking men exactly like their dad, and doing this all over again... .

[bcomingme]

I can't say anything even remotely insinuating that he is doing anything wrong or they flip out. Even if I make neutral statements sometimes they are very defensive about him... .

[momtara]

Wow, this is still so relevant to me!  And helpful to reread.

[Cmjo]

Momtara hello I have just found this thread and it is so helpful!

I hope you have a good day... .you are a great and caring mum, be kind to yourself too, thats what I tell myself anyway though some days I just want to lie in bed and stare at the ceiling... .!

[starshine]

My undiagnosed ASPD/N/BPDexh has been awful to co-parent with.  Although he was incapable of holding a job when we split up and an active alcoholic with 3 DUI's, his wealthy parents decided to show me who was in charge and they have paid for every time this monster has taken me to court, which was alt least 5 times.  He now is a small business owner and home owner (his parents set him up to keep him from moving close to them)and my children are mostly grown-D19 and S18.  There has been years of parental alienation, which D19 has bought into, hook, line, and shrinker.  My children have heard over and over the view that I am the one who deserved to be punished for my bad choices, that I had them in a bad school (private/progressive), that I had them in a bad neighborhood (historic downtown).  The parental alienation has spilled into their relationship with my parents- somehow my daughter feels these paternal grandparents who never come visit or spend time with them are the best, especially since they are wealthy.  Their dad's mom is probably a sociopath also.  D19 was the final influence in getting S18 to move in full time with their dad.  S18 doesn't like living over there, especially since D19 joined the military and is moved out, but has plenty of reasons why he won't move back in with me 50/50.  I believe he is just doing time until he can move to college- that seems like it might not upset his dad in such a primal way perhaps?  There has definitely been some sort of emotional reward system going on- I am interested in this term emotional incest.  I can see that.  Last time D19 was home on leave (although she wanted to go to art school, her dad counseled her to join the military as a way to pay for college- she has been sad, depressed, cutting, and eating disordered since joining military)their dad and step mom took up all her time- they would drink, fight, engage her as the counselor, stay up all night talking.  She heard all about their personal life (step mom referred to dad as sociopath- I just kept my mouth shut.  I don't know that my kids understand their dad has a PD yet, although it is only a matter of time). The day before she was to go back to base her PDdad freaked out, moved out, made her come to his office if she wanted to interact with him.  Wouldn't even come home to say good bye.  As I dropped S18 off at dad's after dropping D19 off at the airport I could see their dad was already home.  Obviously he freaked out about her leaving, they were so enmeshed when she lived with him.   In hindsight, I wish I had never had children with him.  Hopefully someday my children will understand and see what really happened here, that I truly was a great mom, and that their dad is textbook personality disordered.  :'(

[letmeout]

It will happen Starshine! My children finally quit being co-dependent of their father's BPD. they use to side and agree with him because he is such an excellent manipulator and liar. They realize the truth  eventually.

[starshine]

I can't say anything even remotely insinuating that he is doing anything wrong or they flip out. Even if I make neutral statements sometimes they are very defensive about him... . 

My daughter was like this too, about her dad and step mom.  She would get mad at me, saying I was attacking her "parents"- she is possibly disordered herself, and has at times been very cruel to me over the last few years.  And then she's the sweetest thing ever.  Poor kid, she's got a lot to figure out.  I worry both of my children will fall in love with a partner like their father.

Thank you for your kind words, letmeout.  I have to hold on to that hope.  In all honesty, I have made some poor choices myself, which my daughter holds against me, and doesn't seem to let go of.  But PDdad and weak eating disordered mom is the greatest, if you were to believe her words.   S18 seems totally cool with me, although he never initiates texts unless he wants something- par for the course at this age.  Their father hipocritically blew my bad choices way out of proportion- especially since he himself has such a checkered past, but he is so self righteous and manipulative. 

[letmeout]

I worry both of my children will fall in love with a partner like their father.

Both my children married people who act almost BPD, It is sad how my kids put up with their spouses' bad behavior, just like I put up with that from their father.

If I could go back in time I would have gotten us away from him when they were little, then they would have chosen more stable partners.

[livednlearned]

If I could go back in time I would have gotten us away from him when they were little, then they would have chosen more stable partners.

Me too. I have heard that it's best to end the marriage and move out before the kids are 6. Safer for them to develop a secure sense of self during that period of developmental growth. Everything I've read says that all the disordered, abusive stuff starts to really show up in their personalities when the kids turn 8, and that's exactly when things began to fall apart for S12 -- wanting to kill himself  :'(

I do think, though, that it's possible for kids to turn it around once they're adults. It took me until my 40s to figure it out   but I can finally see how manipulative my dad was, wanting to enmesh me and do some seriously underhanded, undermining of my mom, who was codependent and not strong enough to point out what was happening. I finally have a relationship with her, a real one. Not much of anything with my dad or uBPD brother, tho.

[momtara]

Age 8, huh?  That's pretty interesting.  Kind of makes me glad I got out early. 

The reason I started this thread is that a lot of the advice and examples given here for ex-wives just seem so different than for ex husbands.  The issues and responses just seem very different.

[starshine]

I was having a conversation with S18 tonight, talking of D19's anger towards me and how she holds on to that and I mentioned that his father spent a lot of time defaming my character as they were growing up.  He proceeded to tell me that the reason why D19 has anything to do with me is that his father encouraged her to be in a relationship with me.  That his dad doesn't talk smack about me.  He just said his dad thinks I made poor choices. My kids dad has made plenty of really poor choices, he just had wealthy parents to buy him a house, car, and a business after the fact.  The difference is that I didn't think it was appropriate to tell them all of their dads dirty business.  S18 DOESN'T SEE what his father has done all these years, the parental alienation.  I guess he's still too deep in the thick of it, living with his dad and all.  I will keep waiting for the day my kids realize what has happened here... .

[livednlearned]

He proceeded to tell me that the reason why D19 has anything to do with me is that his father encouraged her to be in a relationship with me.  That his dad doesn't talk smack about me.  He just said his dad thinks I made poor choices.

I grew up with a tricky father, and N/BPDx was the same way. They both perfected the art of having their cake and eating it too. They used tone of voice, body language, and other kinds of cues to deride, but then they say the "right" thing. My dad has this chuckle he does after he says something kinda mean or undermining. Then if you say something about it, or feel angry, he says he was just teasing or just joking.

So yes, maybe your ex is saying the "right" thing, like encouraging D19 to be in a relationship with you. But it's entirely possible (and you probably know this better than anyone) that he's using other tactics to smear you, ones that are hard for people to detect. Because just encouraging her to be in a relationship with you -- that right there suggests that he is enmeshed with her. A healthy parent will focus on how the child feels, not telling her how to feel one way or the other.

My dad did this my whole life and it devastated me. It took me until my 40s to realize that he undermined my ability to figure out what was real.

[letmeout]

My BPDex was as good as any professional con artist. They live in a different reality than us nons and I hope to never cross paths with another one.

[CdnSunrise]

In my experience, I wish that I had separated from my almost-exBPDh when my kids were younger, because my kids would have endured/witnessed less abuse (they are now d11, s10 and s7). I went through several years of sitting on the fence, believing that things would change, denial etc,etc, but I got worn out. A bad incident with my ex and 2 sons was (one of) the final straw(s). I completely lost hope.

The ex had been in therapy (at my insistence) for 2-3 years (useless) and we did 3 months of marriage counselling. The marriage counselling was also pretty much useless, until I had an appointment on my own and asked the therapist why I was so numb all the time. She quickly figured out that our r/s was abusive, and combined with the incident with my son (besides me, s10 was always the trigger/target) I just said NO MORE. I kicked him out of my parent's house, where we were staying during a major renovation of our house, and told him it was a temporary separation and that my only requirement was that he leave me alone while I thought things through. I didn't know about BPD at the time, but in classic fashion he pulled out all the stops to try to "win" me back: long, nauseating e-mails, therapy, sudden interest in church-going, getting the kids to beg me to take him back. It all pushed me further away. The true final straw was his turning to my d11 (then 10) for emotional support. I phoned him, he begged to see me, and I went to his parents and BLASTED him, asked for a divorce and left.

I was finally able to set boundaries and truly have not wanted to get back together with him. Perhaps the relationship got way too toxic for me to want to ever go back. I am mostly NC - actually came up with that before I figured out BPD and found this site. I was just tired of the verbal abuse. Of course we are enmeshed in a battle over finances, so no divorce yet. We haven't even got to custody yet. He really was/is not an involved father -- as someone said earlier, he's happy to have me do all the work so he can show off his trophy children -- so I'm not sure if there will be any control grabs around custody.

Like you, Momtara, if someone had told me 3 years ago that I would be a single mom about to be divorced, I wouldn't have believed them. I believed in marriage, in working things out and going the extra mile. I held onto the dream as long as possible. The nice, charming side of the ex was my dream guy after all, but now all I can see is the lying, abusive, deceiving and controlling side. I guess I'm splitting, but I feel like I have had to, in order to save my own sanity.

[momtara]

Well, seems like you got to the end of your rope.  Your kids are still relatively young.  Hopefully he won't fight you for custody.  These folks tend to change, when cornered, and can use custody to keep you involved in their lives, or for revenge.  Is he still begging you to come back, or is he dating?

[starshine]

He proceeded to tell me that the reason why D19 has anything to do with me is that his father encouraged her to be in a relationship with me.  That his dad doesn't talk smack about me.  He just said his dad thinks I made poor choices.

I grew up with a tricky father, and N/BPDx was the same way. They both perfected the art of having their cake and eating it too. They used tone of voice, body language, and other kinds of cues to deride, but then they say the "right" thing. My dad has this chuckle he does after he says something kinda mean or undermining. Then if you say something about it, or feel angry, he says he was just teasing or just joking.

So yes, maybe your ex is saying the "right" thing, like encouraging D19 to be in a relationship with you. But it's entirely possible (and you probably know this better than anyone) thathe's using other tactics to smear you, ones that are hard for people to detect. Because just encouraging her to be in a relationship with you -- that right there suggests that he is enmeshed with her. A healthy parent will focus on how the child feels, not telling her how to feel one way or the other.

My dad did this my whole life and it devastated me. It took me until my 40s to realize that he undermined my ability to figure out what was real.

In bold: YES, this is exactly what is happening.

In green: He has such a grasp on her.  It's awful.

Interesting, I'm in my 40's, and I'm just now seeing how my relationship with my father set me up to think it's acceptable to be in relationships with men that can say one thing to my face but behave in an entirely different manner.  And then I make up some fantasy story that makes everything ok.  I think I probably do it all the time.  And with not just the men I relate with... .in SOO many relationships. 

[CdnSunrise]

I think he's given up on me. He tried for several months, but I was pretty strict about NC, told him I would delete e-mails, destroy letters, etc. He was only allowed to text about arrangements for kids. He did tell a family friend that once I'd made up my mind, that was it. I just waffled for WAY to long. I guess selling our marital home and buying my own house was a pretty good indication that I was serious. Many people recognized that he saw others as all good or all bad -- no gray. I guess I'm in the all black. The things he says to the kids about me indicate that.

I was surprised that he didn't get together with someone sooner, considering how many times he told me he could replace me with someone better (usually the day after he told me that I was wonderful and he couldn't live without me). He was seen with someone else last week. My therapist asked me how that made me feel and I told her that truly I just feel sorry for the next victim, and I hope she's nice to my kids.

[starshine]

Well, seems like you got to the end of your rope.  Your kids are still relatively young.  Hopefully he won't fight you for custody.  These folks tend to change, when cornered, and can use custody to keep you involved in their lives, or for revenge.  Is he still begging you to come back, or is he dating?

oh wow, my uAS/N/BPD baby daddy did this EXACTLY.  We verbally agreed on all sorts of things early on in our parenting days that he did a 180 degree spin on after we split.  He took me to court many times over the past 15 years.  I'm so over legally co-parenting with him. 

[CdnSunrise]

Hoping for the best but expecting the worst. The big thing in my favour is that he's incredibly concerned about saving face -- probably both a part of his narcissism and his cultural heritage (Chinese). He is a medical professional in our small city (32000 people) and I've already threatened to make public the fact that I was a client at the local women's shelter for a year. He is always so concerned about his reputation/paranoid about failing that I feel I have an effective tool to use for the custody battle.

[momtara]

starshine, so was he ever successful?

[livednlearned]

Hoping for the best but expecting the worst. The big thing in my favour is that he's incredibly concerned about saving face -- probably both a part of his narcissism and his cultural heritage (Chinese). He is a medical professional in our small city (32000 people) and I've already threatened to make public the fact that I was a client at the local women's shelter for a year. He is always so concerned about his reputation/paranoid about failing that I feel I have an effective tool to use for the custody battle.

The narcissistic part seems to make a difference -- not necessarily better or worse, but like you say, it's possible to use it to your advantage. Or maybe it's more that it's such a big Achilles heel for them, they can't see how damaging their tactics are to them. N/BPDx ended up representing himself (he's an attorney), and he was so narcissist it worked in my favor (not by anything I did, exactly). He can't see how disordered he is because he's too busy being the big lawyer, and there's no one there to check his thinking. The bad part is that he keeps losing, but it doesn't seem to matter, because being on stage is part of what he wants, win or lose. 

[CdnSunrise]

Or maybe it's more that it's such a big Achilles heel for them, they can't see how damaging their tactics are to them.

I agree. So many times when we were out I would say something that "made him look bad" and when we got home I would be shocked that he was so upset with me over something I thought was an innocuous comment, and half the time didn't even remember saying (I think his memories of these comments were quite different than mine). This is part of his paranoid tendency and I know I can use that against him. Also, although he's very smart he isn't all that well spoken (Dr, not lawyer) and often his illogic is exposed when emotionally triggered, so I'm thinking that he'll avoid going to court at all costs. Fingers crossed.

[livednlearned]

Or maybe it's more that it's such a big Achilles heel for them, they can't see how damaging their tactics are to them.

I agree. So many times when we were out I would say something that "made him look bad" and when we got home I would be shocked that he was so upset with me over something I thought was an innocuous comment, and half the time didn't even remember saying (I think his memories of these comments were quite different than mine). This is part of his paranoid tendency and I know I can use that against him. Also, although he's very smart he isn't all that well spoken (Dr, not lawyer) and often his illogic is exposed when emotionally triggered, so I'm thinking that he'll avoid going to court at all costs. Fingers crossed.

We got a lot accomplished without going to court, but ended up there anyway. 

Better to budget for it if you can. After my first stretch of legal bills (mediation, deposition), my L told me to create an account each month for legal bills because she thought it was likely he was going to be a problem for me. And she was right. I think I saved for about 5 months, and then he had his first big paranoid psychotic break, which put us back in court.

It's always something, it seems.

[CdnSunrise]

We got a lot accomplished without going to court, but ended up there anyway. 

Better to budget for it if you can. After my first stretch of legal bills (mediation, deposition), my L told me to create an account each month for legal bills because she thought it was likely he was going to be a problem for me. And she was right. I think I saved for about 5 months, and then he had his first big paranoid psychotic break, which put us back in court.

It's always something, it seems.

Good to know - thanks Livednlearned. I think he has FINALLY signed the financial settlement - I meet with my L on Tuesday. After 1.5 years, that will be a relief. I am getting some money out of it -- of course, not half of the value of what he's getting in property, but I just got so tired of fighting for it. I'll be setting some of that money aside for legal costs. So much for retirement savings!

[livednlearned]

We got a lot accomplished without going to court, but ended up there anyway. 

Better to budget for it if you can. After my first stretch of legal bills (mediation, deposition), my L told me to create an account each month for legal bills because she thought it was likely he was going to be a problem for me. And she was right. I think I saved for about 5 months, and then he had his first big paranoid psychotic break, which put us back in court.

It's always something, it seems.

Good to know - thanks Livednlearned. I think he has FINALLY signed the financial settlement - I meet with my L on Tuesday. After 1.5 years, that will be a relief. I am getting some money out of it -- of course, not half of the value of what he's getting in property, but I just got so tired of fighting for it. I'll be setting some of that money aside for legal costs. So much for retirement savings!

I hope things go well for you, fingers crossed. What I learned is that N/BPDx is not only high-conflict, he is disordered. His thinking is broken. So following through on the things he agreed to was a problem. That's where the last round of legal battles has been -- getting him to stick to the court agreement.

I think that's not unusual for lots of people here. I don't fully understand it, but it seems like pwBPD see each new interaction as though it is not connected to past decisions and behavior. Or maybe it triggers the same raging feelings each time it comes up, so it has to be resolved over and over and over again. I dunno.

N/BPDx lost in court. So he tried introducing stuff using a new hearing. Lost that hearing too. Judge told him to pay my legal bills. N/BPDx wouldn't do what the judge ordered him to do in another hearing. I took him to court. He lost that too. Judge told him to pay my legal  bills.

N/BPDx just keeps losing, judge keeps ordering him to pay my legal bills. He has lost 4 times in a row. On Monday, he gets served with an Order of Sanctions for not paying my legal bills.

You would think he might see the pattern, and see how this isn't working out for him. But he doesn't... .

So the narcissism helped me win in court, but the BPD makes it so that I have to keep paying legal bills to do the winning.

Which is just losing. 

[CdnSunrise]

N/BPDx just keeps losing, judge keeps ordering him to pay my legal bills. He has lost 4 times in a row. On Monday, he gets served with an Order of Sanctions for not paying my legal bills.

You would think he might see the pattern, and see how this isn't working out for him. But he doesn't... .

So the narcissism helped me win in court, but the BPD makes it so that I have to keep paying legal bills to do the winning.

Which is just losing. 

I hope it goes well on Monday and you get your money back sometime soon. Ugh, how stressful.