Winding down here on L-5

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

These are hard relationships no matter how you slice it. Sigh.

Absolutely Maybeso. None of this is easy. 

[maria1]

These are hard relationships no matter how you slice it. Sigh.

Absolutely Maybeso. None of this is easy. 

[seeking balance]

Staying friends in a less intense way... .  ok, in theory this seems reasonable.

But, let's be real - in the real world, pwBPD are charming as hell when they are "on".  The "on" and idealization is a hook and we all get that feeling of being special.   That feeling of special starts to numb rational thought in us and we then begin to think - it won't happen again.

IMHO - and I can only say this on the undecided board - the ONLY way to be friends is very superficial, nothing intimate or personal - and frankly, what is the point?  That is not my definition of friend. Can I be pleasant if we run into each other in a social setting, sure - but sharing my life... .  nope.   I don't want the underlying feeling of "when is the other shoe going to drop" - it is not a healthy feeling to live life like that and if you don't, then we seriously are deluding ourselves... .  it is untreated BPD for goodness sakes.  Read the facts, we are not some special relationship that is going to make that go away.

Now, if my wife would have not broken a final boundary the last time, my butt would still be on the staying board.  I was married and my core values meant that I would have worked really hard on my side of the street which means radically accepting this and using the tools appropriately.

Almost every person on any of these boards has used the term "soul mate" - is it really reasonable to think we can be casual friends with a soul mate?

Again, if you want to try and be friends - know YOURSELF.  Have clear boundaries, be in therapy to keep yourself in check and do a constant inventory of your expectations... .  this seems like a lot of work for a casual friend.

Now, if you want to be in a romantic relationship - then do it.  There is plenty of support on the staying boards and there are tools to use that do work.

I have pointed to the stops 4 & 5 in this thread because this is really the key - rigorous honesty - otherwise, this is simply a rinse/repeat and a lot of rationalization.

I don't blame anyone for wanting to keep someone around they love - whether for convenience, loneliness, etc - but this is a mental illness that shows itself in intimate relationships - as such, don't you think it is completely predictable that a pwBPD is going to push/pull when any threat of abandonment - REAL or PERCEIVED happens?  We cannot control the perceived abandonment, you know... .  and when we need a break, it feels like real abandonment to them... .  how is a casual friendship realistic?

I know MaybeSo, Maria, P&C, CIF - all of you have tried a version of casual friendship and without fail, each of you ended up in the same tailspin.  I am sorry that each of you have been hurt, truly.  However, until the reality of BPD is embraced and a complete inventory of your needs is assessed - don't you think these casual friendships are kinda gonna have a version of this same ending?

It's ok if it does and if you want to ride the ride - just own it.  You want to ride the ride and don't blame the pwBPD for showing BPD traits when you are hurt.

I may have stepped out of bounds on this post, if you are offended, I sincerely apologize.  I am only 1 person with my opinion.   Each of you are very kind women, from an outsider - watching you all go down a similar path with similar results - I am not sure if you want a real opinion or simply validation that your feelings are hurt - maybe both, I dunno. 

What I do know, after an intimate relationship with a pwBPD - being casual friends without EACH of you having completely separate, happy lives seems a bit like trying to walk a tightrope during a hurricane.

[maria1]

I am owning it. It's actually up to me what the point is. If you don't want to do it with your rc that's up to you. If I don't want to do it that's up to me.

You're making a judgement on something I'm trying to do with my ex. You ask me to own it as if you don't believe my feelings as I state them. I can't do anything about you believing me and I don't need you to. If anything my ex creeps me out. I'm not in love with him. I'm making an effort to stay balanced and, as I said, watch myself for different feelings.

I'm not special. My ex isn't special. We can get together here and there possibly and it might be ok. I'm a very different person to you Seeking Balance. But I'm becoming more and more ok with understanding that we are all very different.

You haven't offended me and I hope what I say doesn't offend you.

[Cardinals in Flight]

This is ALL good, very valuable... .  thank you.

Here's what I know for sure: I am in love with her, she knows it AND participates, her actions, our activities are that of a couple.  We (did) communicate daily, more than a superficial level, I liked that, it fits with what I like in a close r/s.  But I didn't tear my garments or throw myself off a cliff if I didn't hear from her.

At this time last year? I was becoming acquainted with a potential new person in my life, after the first "we are only friends, I don't want a gf" speech.  I didn't hide it and she went nuts!  Soo, after another heavy discussion whereby I stated firmly, " you don't want me, WTH?". She agreed that she had not moved on, I hadn't moved on, we liked where we were, and yes we were more than friends.  

As far as blaming her? I don't blame her, I'm just trying to understand... .  and I do own loving and wanting her, but where I struggle now is the cost too high to me?  I love me too!

I was good with that, her actions showed me she loved me and wanted to keep me around, at least I thought so.  I don't push myself on her.  We don't live together, no way to smother her with the busy lives we have. Just confusing, again.

We did well, up until a few weeks ago (actually since about the first of Feb) there began this decline and disconnect.  I made the mistake of asking about it... .  

That's a bit more history. The facts.

CiF

[seeking balance]

I'm not special. My ex isn't special. We can get together here and there possibly and it might be ok. I'm a very different person to you Seeking Balance. But I'm becoming more and more ok with understanding that we are all very different.

You haven't offended me and I hope what I say doesn't offend you.

Nope, I am not offended at all and I agree we are all very different - no worries.  

Casual friends is a great conversation on staying or undecided boards - however, on leaving board when people are barely hanging on, this advice can give a false hope when they need to be detaching.  

[seeking balance]

This is ALL good, very valuable... .  thank you.

Here's what I know for sure: I am in love with her, she knows it AND participates, her actions, our activities are that of a couple.  We (did) communicate daily, more than a superficial level, I liked that, it fits with what I like in a close r/s.  But I didn't tear my garments or throw myself off a cliff if I didn't hear from her.

At this time last year? I was becoming acquainted with a potential new person in my life, after the first "we are only friends, I don't want a gf" speech.  I didn't hide it and she went nuts!  Soo, after another heavy discussion whereby I stated firmly, " you don't want me, WTH?". She agreed that she had not moved on, I hadn't moved on, we liked where we were, and yes we were more than friends.  

As far as blaming her? I don't blame her, I'm just trying to understand... .  and I do own loving and wanting her, but where I struggle now is the cost too high to me?  I love me too!

I was good with that, her actions showed me she loved me and wanted to keep me around, at least I thought so.  I don't push myself on her.  We don't live together, no way to smother her with the busy lives we have. Just confusing, again.

We did well, up until a few weeks ago (actually since about the first of Feb) there began this decline and disconnect.  I made the mistake of asking about it... .  

That's a bit more history. The facts.

CiF

History and facts are good, gives a much better picture of where you both are - which is in a relationship 

At the end of the day, you hit the nail on the head - you don't want to be casual friends, you want a more traditional relationship... .  and when you brought up the pulling away - she pushed even more, right?

Do I understand correctly?

[Conundrum]

I believe that a non can maintain a friendship with a pwBPD after some sort of denouement.The friendship will be unconventional, just like the committed relationship was.

In these situations, the paramount issue for the non is pain tolerance. If one is in dire distress over the devolution of the relationship--it is best to avoid the infliction of further pain. As was pointed out, if one adopts terms such as "soul mate" and if there was a marriage, then perhaps a devolution in relationship status is simply too painful for the non.

If a non confuses idealization for love and all the concomitant perks that make being with a pwBPD so enticing--then reaches the erroneous conclusion that their somewhat illusory partner is their soul mate; that is a teachable moment. It's certainly arguable whether an untreated pwBPD can ever be anyone's soul mate. It's also arguable whether soul mate's even exist. It's a rather amorphous concept.

Probably one of the most important lessons I learned being with a pwBPD for over 7 years was not just to radically accept them, but to admit to myself at a core level, whether I possessed a bohemian spirit or exhibited a more conventional disposition. Trying to fit an unconventional person into a conventional relationship box is self-sabotaging.

If you take a few of the negative relationship-busting traits that a pwBPD might possess--lying, infidelity and manipulation, it is rarely as heinous compared to when an allegedly sane adult commits those same acts. The non has the power to transcend conventional relationship expectations while still possessing determinate (albeit unconventional) boundaries.  An analogy can be made to the US Sup Cts line of reasoning in their most important cases involving the death penalty and life-without parole for juveniles:



"To start with the first set of cases... .  establish that children are constitutionally different from adults for purposes of sentencing. Because juveniles have diminished culpability and greater prospects for reform, we explained, they are less deserving of the most severe punishments.  Those cases relied on three significant gaps between juveniles and adults. First, children have a "`lack of maturity and an underdeveloped sense of responsibility,'" leading to recklessness, impulsivity, and heedless risk-taking. Second, children "are more vulnerable... .  to negative influences and outside pressures," including from their family and peers; they have limited "contro[l] over their own environment" and lack the ability to extricate themselves from horrific, crime-producing settings. Ibid. And third, a child's character is not as "well formed" as an adult's; his traits are "less fixed" and his actions less likely to be "evidence of irretrievabl[e] deprav[ity]."  

Does any of that sound familiar?

[maria1]

To me it is a little like where you put a personality disorder in terms of learning disability or mental illness. It's actually something else altogether I believe but I don't necessarily believe that cutting them out of my life is the right way for me, if I can find another way. But that's just me and I appreciate I am in a minority! And as I said the jury is out on whether I can.

I didn't think this was on the leaving board? It started in staying and got moved to undecided I thought.

The intimacy is triggering. The intimacy is there. The push/ pull will come and go so you can only decide whether you can stay in and ride that or detach. I don't mean to belittle that decision I'm just trying to help clarify it. She won't help you with this. You can't let her make the rules. You have to set the rules for you and that is in evaluating your boundaries and what you actually want in your life.

[Cardinals in Flight]

SB, in answer to your question, yes! Questioning the distance created more distance.  Until it didn't, .  As I've indicated, I'm not initiating, but letting her come to me. And she has reached out, sweetly on a couple of occasions.

Conundrum, (ain't that the truth!)  We had a good, seemingly deep emotional connection, soul mate? Dunno if I believe in that theory.  To my knowledge, there has been no lying or secret relationships.  I realize from reading here that is possible.  I also believe that I had a fairly good grasp on her emotional limitations, ie; child like mentality in some regards.  I made accommodations, and worked at just accepting it as a part of her. We didn't get to really know one another until AFTER the romantic rs ended.  It's even been discussed how rapid we both fell into the initial idealization phase and how that was unsustainable, let's be clear, Ifell for that   

I suppose what I'm feeling is some of the growth I've done, or work having to do on my own issues and so, some of this seems less acceptable in some way.

It does indeed bite to hear this blatant denial, guess if I want to continue I just have to lethat go.

How do I really know she means what she says? I know there isn't an answer to that... .  gaaaa

CiF

[Cardinals in Flight]

Maria, I'm a minority with you, as of now anyway... .  

It's contrary to everything I believe to tell someone you love them, and leave them, it's why I'm here.

CiF

[MaybeSo]

We did well, up until a few weeks ago (actually since about the first of Feb) there began this decline and disconnect.  I made the mistake of asking about it... .  

Right.

My ex has been in Therapy for over 8 years.

He still does this push pull. And not just with me. When he dated another woman last year, it was in the 4-6 month period when started w/drawing and feeling contemplative about her, too.   And others, too.

I do agree with Seeking Balance that that this is what untreated BPD LOOKS LIKE.  Oh, and, in my case, this is what treated BPD LOOKS like, too!  This is to be expected.  It has nothing to do with you.

I do not think there's any hope for any r/s unless I am in acceptance that he does this pulling away periodically. And then he comes back. And then he pulls away. And then he comes back.  It's often after a period of hightened closeness that he feel dysregulated and pull away. THAT is the defintion of BPD or an attachment disorder.  

I'm experimenting with what the push pull looks like if I don't follow my same (dysfunctional) steps of becoming panicked and reacting to what he does with my own push/pull, instead, I am experimenting with calmness.

Oh, you feel like you need to date or time away... .  wow, well, I guess you have to do what you have to do.  I support you in doing what you need to do.

 My job is to stay calm and keep doing waht I have to do for me.

 

Funny, he isn't dating.  In the past, I'd have been so hurt during a pull away, that we'd break up and then he would start to date and then later we would get back together... .  bla bla bla... .  

What if instead of going into orbit when he starts to do his typical w/drawal thing,  everyone just stays calm and we just completely eliminate the middle part where everyone freaks out and breaks up?  

Basically, keep calm and carry on.

I know MaybeSo, Maria, P&C, CIF - all of you have tried a version of casual friendship and without fail, each of you ended up in the same tailspin.  I am sorry that each of you have been hurt, truly.  However, until the reality of BPD is embraced and a complete inventory of your needs is assessed - don't you think these casual friendships are kinda gonna have a version of this same ending?

It's ok if it does and if you want to ride the ride - just own it.  You want to ride the ride and don't blame the pwBPD for showing BPD traits when you are hurt.

1) I have not called what I have a casual freindship. I honestly don't have a word for what we are right now.

2) I am not in a tailspin!

3) I am not hurt. I am fine. More than fine. I do feel hurt sometimes, this is part of life.

4) I am not blaming my pwBPD or expecting him to be something other than who he is; and if I do find myself doing this, part of why I'm in contact is to examine and stop those behaviors IN ME, I'm examining and changing me, I am not examining and trying to change HIM.


I feel very much in conscious ownership (as much as a fallable human can be) about my current choice. I FULLY expect that he will do a push-pull.  The form it takes sometimes still surprises me, but I fully expect a push-pull. He will likely continue some form of push-pull forever.  I'm not living in a dream world and I am soo over thinking I or anyone else is so special that he won't be who he is.

If I have a conversation with him (or anyone) that stings... .  may I come here to share and process it?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  I'm not sure what I'm trying to do now makes any sense here.  I want to process  what is happening inside of ME, but I notice I spend most of the time explaining and helping others anxiety about what I'm trying to do, and what I'm trying to process and learn gets lost in the explanations.  So I think I need to just stop JADING about what I'm doing and maybe not try to process it on bpdfamily.com.  JADING didn't work well in my relationship with him, and it's not going to work on this board, either!  

SB, you don't have to be sorry for me that I got hurt. Truly.   Humans get hurt sometimes.  I'm okay. I will get my feelings hurt sometimes, I will at times be disapointed in life, with him, with others... .  that's life.  I'm not so special that I won't ever be hurt or disapointed by people.

Personally, I like the work that I have been doing ON ME since seeing more of my ex.  I like being able to feel that pld familiar sting... .  BUT use my wise mind to calm myself and see his stuff as belonging to him, and my stuff as belonging to me.  I find it helpful for me.

I find it difficult but helpful to practice loving detachment; to stay grounded in my own life even though I have this person who may be good at idealizing or is charming when he feels good.  With all I know now, I like being able to stand back and observe what is happening, taking neither the idealization or the looming depression personally.

I like stepping back and letting him have his own feelings, no matter how 'stupid' or off base I think they are... .  I like knowing they are HIS feelings and I don't have to fix them or change them or take them personally or do anything but manage my OWN feelings.

I like that I'm not responding to his crap the way I did for five long years.  I like that I can set it aside and just let it go.   And at times, I bring some crap to the table too. I like seeing what is mine to  own, and beleive me, he is NOT the only one with issues with intimacy, at my worst I can be an insufferable, anxious, codepedent control freak.   I have issues, too.  

Maybe he will take off tomorrow and I won't ever see him again.  I don't know.  He is his own person, I support him doing whatever he needs to do.  Right now, he likes spending some time with me and I'm learning a lot being connected in a different way to him.  We do not have a label for what we are.  We do not have a timeline. I'm just living my life one day at a time.

WE don't fit into a neat box or definition of freindship, or lovers, or couple... .  we are NOT just freinds with benefits, I can say that for sure. I don't fool myself that we are only freinds, it's certainly more than that.  But, SB... .  honesly, I don't have HAVE a name for what we are that fits into a neat category or label. If I say friend, or ex,  it's because I don't know what else to call him... .  I'm not trying to get out of ownership of my choices... .  I just don't know what to call it.  I think that's okay.  Ex feels good because frankly, what we are doing now seems different enough from our past relationship, that I do feel it's an EX relationship.  I have divorced or left the kind of relationship I use to have with him, and we are definately doin something quite different.  There is still push/pull, of course. Dealing with the risidual of a pull-away right now, as a matter of fact.  And I feel fine, better than fine.    

I like that when I wake up in the morning I'm neither on cloud 9 (depending on him) or in the depths of hell (depending on him).  I do NOT depend on him, I depend on myself and he along with many others are part of my life.  I like that I'm fully engaged with my OWN life and he is just a part of it.

I like realizing it's my responsibility to make my own life meaningful and to feel happy within myself. He does not bestow me with the feeling of being worthwhile or special, and therefore can't 'take that away from me' when he is not in a good mood or dysregulated.  He may be a drag to be around while in that space, in which case, I can take my own space.  But he doesn't determine for me my worth, my specialiness, or my happiness as a human being.  In his pain he may poke at those things, because mysery loves company, but he can't take it away from me unless I am operating under the dellusion that those things belong to him and he either gives them to me or not. He does not give me my value, specialness or worth.   They are mine to own or not; that is my job and  my responsibility.

I do not promote or advocate that what I am doing is what anyone else should be doing; I'm not advocating for anyone else, I'm simply doing this for myself.   And I'm simply processing my own stuff.  

But, let's be real - in the real world, pwBPD are charming as hell when they are "on".  The "on" and idealization is a hook and we all get that feeling of being special.   That feeling of special starts to numb rational thought in us and we then begin to think - it won't happen again.

I think what needs to be addressed is not that their are charming folks who can make us feel special and the dangers of those people, but our own illusion that we aren't  already special without those charming people. This is ultimately an inside job, not an outside job... .  regardless of NC, LC, or Contact.  

[maria1]

I get that CIF  

I'm not waiting for my BPDex to change or love me. If anything I'm waiting for the day he finds another woman who fits so that he doesn't have so much need of me. He needs to be married- it's what suits him. He's struggling to find someone.

I think we probably could have made a go of it if I didn't have my kids and before I'd got to the point of absolute mistrust. I think he is more self aware than others and I think he'd do the therapy, he has had faith in it before.

But he isn't who I want for a relationship. He certainly isn't my soul mate and never was. I probably believed he was. I did feel deeply, deeply connected to him for a long time, or what felt like a long time.

[Cardinals in Flight]

Maybeso, almost everything you say touches some place in me where I can relate.  Most especially the lack of label to what I call our "unship". I don't need a label, but I am single outwardly, even if I may be committed in my heart.

You're right about not getting all discombobulated with the pulling away, it's what they do. Just gotta go with it I suppose and grow thicker skin? Isn't there always this tiny lil undercurrent screaming to your inner self, "is this the time they leave for good?"

And so, my reason mind would tell me that I need to just not care or someow transcend the chaos to the point of being unable to feel the pain of these push/pull occurances.  Now, help me out here, I'm 52 years old, been getting in touch with, and working on feeling for about ten years... .  How does this help me?   I feel as though I'm on a gerble wheel, like one of those circular BPD arguments that I've learned to step out of... .  

I'm going to distract myself, I've worked it up again (the self) 

CiF

[MaybeSo]

And so, my reason mind would tell me that I need to just not care or someow transcend the chaos to the point of being unable to feel the pain of these push/pull occurances. Now, help me out here, I'm 52 years old, been getting in touch with, and working on feeling for about ten years... .  How does this help me?   I feel as though I'm on a gerble wheel, like one of those circular BPD arguments that I've learned to step out of... .  

Ha! I'm going to be 50 next year. Maybe we should just get together and dump these bozos!

Seriously, I can't tell you how or if this helps you at all... .  to do what you are doing. Only you can know that.

It has personally helped me for the reasons I listed above in my post; the implication being, for a long five years I wasn't taking very good care of myself, and now I am, I wasn't doing the things I'm doing now,  and I find it useful to do those things while being in contact with him. I have never had nearly as volatile a r/s before with the push/pulls etc., but honestly, I have always not taken good care of myself INSIDE of any intimate relationship and that is what I need to work on. I am perfectly fine on my own, it's IN a relationship that I get lost. That is why this is beneficial for me to work on this.

An argument could be made that I'm not taking good care of myself unless I am not connected with him at all; but, I know me, I know what my issues are/were in relationships.  I know this has been helpful for me, for now.  How long?  Who knows. I know I like having my own place and wouldnt live with him while doing this!

You're right about not getting all discombobulated with the pulling away, it's what they do. Just gotta go with it I suppose and grow thicker skin? Isn't there always this tiny lil undercurrent screaming to your inner self, "is this the time they leave for good?"

This has always been my biggest fear. My dad left us when I was five. I'm looking at that fear and dealing with it. The fact is, he could also get into a car accident and die tomorrow. There are no guarantees. My dad was married to my mom for 20 years, and he left her and us for another woman. There are no gurantees, no perfect relationships, there is nowhere on this earth where we don't sometimes get left.  People sometimes leave.

If he leaves for good, I will be okay.  

If she leaves for good, so will you.  

[seeking balance]

But, let's be real - in the real world, pwBPD are charming as hell when they are "on".  The "on" and idealization is a hook and we all get that feeling of being special.   That feeling of special starts to numb rational thought in us and we then begin to think - it won't happen again.

I think what needs to be addressed is not that their are charming folks who can make us feel special and the dangers of those people, but our own illusion that we aren't  already special without those charming people. This is ultimately an inside job, not an outside job... .  regardless of NC, LC, or Contact.  

I agree with you 100% on this being an inside job 

I also should not have lumped you all together in this because each of you are in different places - I was simply lumping the disappointed outcomes in unclarified relationshippy/friendshippy whatever these are... .  - I am very aware each of your journeys and core stuff is quite different and in different places - my sincere apologies to each of you.

Also, processing here is fine as well; I did clarify was this supporting BPD friend trend a vent/validation post on staying or action oriented/problem solving... .  I would imagine being in a BPD relationship you need to have a vent place, which is why I asked the question specifically.

SB, in answer to your question, yes! Questioning the distance created more distance. 

Ok - don't kill me for asking this please, pretty please ... .  when you brought it up, did you use DEARMAN and was it a conscious conversation on your part or did it just sorta happen?

[Cardinals in Flight]

I did the chicken sh$& thing and emailed  . Actually, we have this thing where we email our thoughts and discuss in person, it's worked in the past. Only happened a couple times.

Not just venting either, I'm doing well and coming back from some really big stuff this past year, so maybe I'm having growing pains? In every area of my life, I'm happy right now.  She tells me she likes being with me because I calm her, my upbeat, sunny disposition

(ok, I had to lmao writing that cuz I seem anything BUT right here in this place)

Anyway, in using an "I" statement,  simply said I felt very far away from her and disconnected and could we fix it.

In my mind, it was short, sweet, and to the point. Is that accusatory? I didn't mean for it to be.

CiF

[seeking balance]

I did the chicken sh$& thing and emailed  . Actually, we have this thing where we email our thoughts and discuss in person, it's worked in the past. Only happened a couple times.

Not just venting either, I'm doing well and coming back from some really big stuff this past year, so maybe I'm having growing pains? In every area of my life, I'm happy right now.  She tells me she likes being with me because I calm her, my upbeat, sunny disposition

(ok, I had to lmao writing that cuz I seem anything BUT right here in this place)

Anyway, in using an "I" statement,  simply said I felt very far away from her and disconnected and could we fix it.

In my mind, it was short, sweet, and to the point. Is that accusatory? I didn't mean for it to be.

CiF

Well, if the email thing works for you both that is cool, sometimes it is easier - but in this case it sounds like you think it triggered her, and her distancing herself triggers you and has you questioning - do I understand this correctly?

What, exactly was happening that was making you feel far away anyways?

[Cardinals in Flight]

Not doing our usual, normal activities, just asking me to do things for her, dumping all the crap from an overwhelming job, which I do understand and am happy to listen and support.  But never asking about me, or listening to me, just disrespecting me, and taking me for granted.  I make suggestions for plans and they get shot down, yanno? Became really one sided and frankly she seems miserable all the time.  We've been here before, this time seems darker.

I have to be able to have a voice or else this is futile and why bother?  When a friend tells me I seem off? We talk about it and get to the bottom of what seems weird or off.

[seeking balance]

Not doing our usual, normal activities, just asking me to do things for her, dumping all the crap from an overwhelming job, which I do understand and am happy to listen and support.  But never asking about me, or listening to me, just disrespecting me, and taking me for granted. 

I make suggestions for plans and they get shot down, yanno?

yep, I know this game - yep, it sucks.

How do you feel when this happens?

Became really one sided and frankly she seems miserable all the time.  We've been here before, this time seems darker.

Darker is not good or fun... .  do you think it is possible she knows she is darker, thus pushing you away since she has no reserves for her needs... .  your needs may be making her feel guilty?

I have to be able to have a voice or else this is futile and why bother?  When a friend tells me I seem off? We talk about it and get to the bottom of what seems weird or off.

Well, a nonBPD friend, you are right - but this is BPD.

You are right though - you get to have a voice, this is very important.  Your needs are not being met and she may not be able to meet them, she kinda told you that by saying maybe you should get a girlfriend.  Granted, her approach leaves a lot of room for improvement, but it is possible she meant she knew she was failing you and in this dark time she cannot do much better.

DEARMAN is a technique where you get to have a voice, yet say it in a way that may be heard.  Also, when I use this technique I find that I can help clarify what my real needs are and I can critically ask myself if the BPD can do this now or if someone else could meet that need for me.

Do you have it in you to try using DEARMAN for the same problem so you can perhaps see the differences?

Here is a cheat sheet on it.

DESCRIBE

Describe the situation when necessary - sometimes it isn't stick to the facts and no judgmental statements

"I've been working here for 2 years now and haven't received a raise, even though my performance reviews have always been positive"

"This is the third time this week that you've asked me for a ride home."


EXPRESS

Express feelings/opinions about the situation clearly.

describe how you feel or what you believe about the situation.

don't expect the other person to read your mind or know how you feel give a brief reason for making your request.

"I believe that I deserve a raise."

"I'm getting home so late that it is really hard for me and my family. But I also really enjoy giving you rides home, and it is hard for me to say no."


ASSERT

Assert your wishes.

Ask for what you want.

Say no clearly.

Don't expect the other person to know what you want them to do if you don't tell them (don't expect them to mind read).

Don't tell others what they "should" do.

Don't beat around the bush... .  Just bite the bullet and ask, or say no

"I would like a raise. Can you give it to me?

"But I have to say no tonight. I can't give you a ride home so often."


REINFORCE

Reward people who respond positively to you when you ask for something, say no or express an opinion.

Sometimes it helps to reinforce people before they respond to your question by telling them the positive effects of getting what you want or need.

The basic idea here is that if people do not gain form complying with a request, at least some of the time, they may stop responding in a positive way

"I will be a lot happier and probably more productive if I get a salary that reflects my value to the company."

"Thanks for being so understanding. I really appreciate it."


STAY MINDFUL

Keep your focus on your objectives in the situation

Maintain your position

Don't be distracted on to another topic

Two helpful techniques for staying mindful:

1. Broken Record

Keep asking, saying no or expressing your opinion... .  over and over and over

You just don't have to think up something new each time, just keep saying the exact same thing. Keep a mellow tone of voice... .  your strength comes from maintaining your position

2. Ignore

If the other person attacks, threatens or tries to change the subject, ... .  IGNORE, the

threats comments or efforts to divert you. Just keep making your point. If you respond to these attacks, you have allowed the other person to take control of the situation

If you want to deal with the attacks... .  deal with them in another discussion.


APPEAR CONFIDENT

Confident tone of voice

Confident physical manner

Appropriate eye contact

No stammering, whispering, staring at the floor, etc... .  

How confident to act in a situation is a judgment call. There is a fine line between appearing arrogant, and appearing too apologetic.


NEGOTIATE

Be willing to give to get

Offer and ask for alternate solutions

Reduce your request

Maintain your no, but offer to do something else or solve the problem another way

A helpful skill here is "turning the tables." Turn the problem over to the other person, ask for alternative solutions.

"What do you think we can do." "I am not able to say yes, but you really seem to want me to. What can we do here?"

"How can we solve this problem?"

[Cardinals in Flight]

If i ever get another chance i could try?  I honestly cannot imagine being able to get these thoughts out uninterrupted or without the smack talk, but I try.  There's usually manipulation involved because I do communicate pretty well in normal circumstances, she flusters me. It can be about me initially, then it's allllll about her.

Thank you SB.

[seeking balance]

If i ever get another chance i could try?  I honestly cannot imagine being able to get these thoughts out uninterrupted or without the smack talk, but I try.  There's usually manipulation involved because I do communicate pretty well in normal circumstances, she flusters me. It can be about me initially, then it's allllll about her.

Thank you SB.

I meant try now - here - practice so when you are in those moments you can use them.  SWOE suggests this... .  it is kinda like practicing 100's of free throws in basketball practice so when the shot comes in game

[patientandclear]

CiF -- it seems to me that clarity about the question will help in finding the answer.

Do you feel "I want more, not less," and are you therefore looking for strategies to encourage/coax/relax her into being more engaged, proactive, open to intimacy?

Do you feel "recognizing she has uBPD, I am willing to let her come and go at her own pace and in her own rhythm, but there is a threshold of overall intimacy and closeness and frequency below which this doesn't work for me, and I am trying to determine what that is?"

Something else?

[Cardinals in Flight]

I think that I am done.  The pain is greater to me being with her on the fringe, than without.  I'm tired of  being the one kicked to the curb when her life gets rough, that's not how I engage with those i love, or want a rs of any kind, labeled or unlabeled to be.

This isnt about me, I get that.  But she said the words, and I can take them and use them how I see best works for me, today, in MY life.  I matter, I have a heart and it needs to close over the space she occupies and always will.  I'm being told no, I can't have more, and so I need to listen... .  now.

Thank you all, from the bottom of my heart for taking your time, putting up with my emotions and for caring enough to write to me these past few days.

CiF

[Cardinals in Flight]

This is really hard, this letting go stuff! I've done ok, and with the exception of one SOS from the pwBPD, there has been no attempt to re-engage.

I'm not suprised, but of course we all hope a little bit deep down that we are missed and wanted.

I've had some super introspection type times over the past several days and it feels really good.  I miss my pwBPD, a whole whole lot.  But every time I think of the super good times, I try and temper them by remembering how alone I feel when I'm with her, the disrespect, the taking for granted and it helps me right myself.

I'm not miserable, but I am missing her.  And I also see just how un important I really was. 

Hang in there all you peeps trying to get over the first miserable, panic stricken days of making the decision to let your relationships with your pwBPD go, it's really a move in the right direction.

CiF