UBPDh says all the right things

[martillo]

Our 13yo DS said it best a couple of days ago, "people don't see the same dad we see."  We are going through a very rough period for at least the last 2 yrs and  H always seems to say the "right" things about how we need to resolve "our" issues, and even tells me all the things we need to do to make it better and if I was on the outside looking in, I would be amazed at his wisdom.   

It would be so nice if his actions matched his words.

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[united for now]

That is often the case. We tend to hide our baggage out of the public eyes.

What  specific area do you wish he would match?

[byasliver]

martillo, I know exactly what you mean. My uBPDh knows just what to say to others and how to compose himself but behind the closed doors of our home, he is completely different. That is the one thing that I have the hardest time with when I'm trying to be patient and understand that he is mentally ill. It just doesn't make sense to me that he doesn't know that what he is doing is wrong if he knows to not do those things at certain times. I have an appt with my T this morning and that's one of the things I want to ask about. Maybe I can get some answers for both of us. 

[whereisthezen]

That's really hard to deal with.  I know I've seen it not just with those that have PD but BP or some with manipulative traits.

Since I've seen it a few times with a few people I would say they do know it and that when those people are around, it is reality and that they want to mirror the expectations of the group so they immediately leave the drama behind and protect themselves from anyone else knowing too much.

Sad way of living.

[byasliver]

whereisthezen, nailed exactly what my T said to me this morning. We have to remember that our pwBPD have a mental illness and we need look at it as a disability. It's tough and it isn't always fair but that's the reality of it. We can either accept it and find healthy ways of coping (boundaries, taking care of ourselves) or we can say it's too much for us and get out. Not what we want to hear but it's the bottom line.

[whereisthezen]

"It's tough and it isn't always fair but that's the reality of it. We can either accept it and find healthy ways of coping (boundaries, taking care of ourselves) or we can say it's too much for us and get out. Not what we want to hear but it's the bottom line."

This is exactly where I am now, when it hits me (either way) I hope it hits me hard to go or stay. That's what I need, I'm on the fence but proactively in therapy for myself to decide.

[byasliver]

when it hits me (either way) I hope it hits me hard to go or stay. That's what I need, I'm on the fence but proactively in therapy for myself to decide.

Me, too. I'm tired of sitting on this fence but I'm not ready to jump off to either side.

[martillo]

What  specific area do you wish he would match?

H can spout relationship advice like nobody's business - in fact - lots of people we know seek him out for advice when their relationships are faltering. 

He can "give" such good advice to all his buddies and screwed up cousins.  I wish he could live it.  H can also spout advice about our own relationship that is amazingly spot-on.  But he fails at implementation.

Example:

H - "Our relationship sucks because we never do anything together.  You do your thing and I do mine and it is a big problem." Me - "I did this with you and went to this function with you. I asked you if you wanted to do such and such w me.  You didn't want to do that with me." 

H - "You only go w me because you feel like you have to; and you know I don't like to do such and such.  It was dumb of you to ask."  Me - "I go w you because I love you and want to support you.  I understand you don't like such and such, but I wanted to do it, so I did it." 

H - "I don't want you to do stuff with me to support me... .   I want you to be there because you want to be there.  I want us to do stuff together."  Me - "I wanted to be there and I wanted to support you because I love you and most of the things I like to do, you don't like to do and I have stopped asking because you never do them w me." 

H - "We need to do stuff together."  Me - "OK, this is a dead horse that has been beaten many times before, I am done."  H - "See, you always just run away.  We never resolve anything." 

Sadly, he is right though - we never resolve anything... .  

I see the circular argument and I try now to think before I speak to "hear in my head" if I am JADE-ing or if I am validating.  (yes, I know telling him he is beating a dead horse is very invalidating)

I wish he actually heard the advice he gives and applied it where it counts most - in our relationship!

[Chosen]

I can relate to this so much.

uBPDh believes the foundation of our communication problems is with me.  How I am very negative, only sees things I want to see and am terribly inflexible.  He mentions all the time that other people appreicate him so much, if I only see him the way the rest of the world sees him... .  

I wish he would treat me the way he treats the rest of the world!  He would be willing to help, he appreciates other people, if other people offend him he wouldn't shout at them... .   he would only do that to me.  But of course I can never tell him that it's because he treats other people differently that they react differently, and also people who don't tend to be that close to you won't bother with criticising you, right?  They'll just let whatever they think about you pass.  If they don't like somthing you say they just stop talking to you, whereas your wife can't really do that, right?

I agree that we have to treat it as some sort of disability- emotional disability perhaps? 

[bruceli]

As my BPDw says... .   I wish I could treat you as well as I treat my friends... .     BTW, her friends are actually her party/drinking buddies... .  

[Rockylove]

H - "We need to do stuff together." 

Perhaps at this point in the conversation you could ask him what things he would like you two to do as a couple.  There are things you can do separately because they don't hold much interest for the other, but see if there are examples of what might interest you two as a couple.  Just a thought.

[whereisthezen]

Martillo that make my head spin too. Hope you're doing ok.

Mine says all the right things when we're NOT physically together then completely distant/ raging when we are, each person is different but Im trying to stay focused on me, I hope you can too when " all the right things" are being said.

To chosen- so similar, when mine is unhappy he says I think YOU' VE changed! reminds me of your inflexible comment-   "uBPDh believes the foundation of our communication problems is with me.  How I am very negative, only sees things I want to see and am terribly inflexible.  He mentions all the time that other people appreicate him so much, if I only see him the way the rest of the world sees him... .  "

[daylily]

Martillo, thanks for this post!  My uBPDh is very similar.  He can be so incredibly insightful but for many things the ability to follow through and the realistic solutions are just not there.   And even if he does begin to follow through on a "plan" it falls by the wayside because the emotions take over.  A lot of times, I must admit, we do come up with a plan to address a problem, but I stop following through on the plan myself because it becomes so hard when his ultimate behavior doesn't match his original drive to follow through on the plan (e.g., complaints, sighing, grouchiness, blame, sulking, etc.)

I think maybe the lack of realism or follow through is due to the focus on feelings.  It's easier even for us nons to present a solution to someone else's problem because we don't have emotions invested in it.  I imagine that alot of the time my H has such strong emotions invested that he can't see the solution at all, and even if he sees it in a moment of clarity, it's overcome by the emotions later on. 

Plus, I think he focuses so much on fault that it makes a solution difficult to reach.  He feels a certain way and he can't possibly be to blame for what he's feeling, so the problem must be my fault.  Him making a contribution of some sort to solve the problem would be counter to the idea that the problem is my fault.  I caused the problem, shouldn't I fix it?     And if I'm not going to fix it, that's just another thing wrong with me.  How could he have married me when there is so much wrong with me?  Oh, I guess he's stuck with me now that we have kids.  Woe is him.  [sniff]

For example, my H says our marriage sucks because we don't agree on anything. (He thought when he married me that I agreed with him on stuff, but it turns out, I don't.)  It's my fault our marriage sucks because if I just agreed with him it wouldn't suck.  Why should he do anything about this if it's my fault?  Plus, his focus is on the feelings of disappointment and anger that he was somehow "fooled" into thinking that we agree on everything before we got married.  Solutions would require him to set aside his feelings, which he has problems doing.

I'm thinking maybe if we focus on the feeling and validate that, maybe they can get on to a real solution that's lurking there in their sometimes insightful brains?

  Daylily

[waverider]

Not being able to walk their own talk is classic BPD in many areas. Another way it shows itself is as the arm chair "expert" in many things. I think it is closely related to projection. Thought processes turn into advice or criticisms of what others should do, a kind of reprocessing their own environment.

This makes it hard for Ts to get to the real issues as they seem to have already self analysed themselves and got a grip on things. But it rarely gets past grand statements and mantras

[Chosen]

I think the real difficulty lies in the fact that we cannot validate them.  (as in, we cannot validate something that's not true, and we just don't have the words to validate their version of truth)

The truly believe in what they say.  When they say the problem is with us, they believe that.  When they say they are generous and other people love them and whatever, they also believe that.  We can't agree with them because that will mean accepting the blame for our personality, our whole person, our actions.  But if we tell them our version of the truth it is invalidating.

Trouble is, we cannot change the way they see things.  If that is the case, all we can do is to try and validate as far as we feel ok (without compromising our sense of self), and just accept that sometimes we cannot agree on everything.  Also, when they're in a more acceptant mood, use SET to point out the way they are having blind spots, and leave it to them weather they accept our truths or not.

[waverider]

Avoid the agree to disagree statement, as that rarely goes down well they cant accept unfinished business. You cant both be right, as that is a firm statement that they are wrong.

[Chosen]

waverider, I mean that in our minds we tell ourselves "agree to disagree", so that we will not try to convince them.  I definitely don't suggest saying that to our pwBPDs!

[waverider]

  A bit like the internal eyerole ... . We need to be good actors at times... . !

[united for now]

Allowing them to have their own views is an important aspect of acceptance. No, they won't always be right - for that sake we aren't either  

It helps if you can step back from the need to prove anything or change anything and focus on your long term goals of accepting them as they are... .  they may be braggarts. they may be puffed up on their own sense of self importance. they may believe they are infallible. All of that is OK, it's a part of who they are and how they see themselves. We don't have to point out that they aren't wearing any clothes  (as in the emperor who wore no clothes). We can learn to smile to ourselves and allow them to be themselves. Even if that means watching them strut around naked  

Once you get to the point where you can see their actions in a more benign way you will find a lot more peace inside of yourself.

Learn to let it go... .  save your energy for the big stuff.


Trying to teach a duck to bark only frustrates you and pisses off the duck

[martillo]

Thank you all for the replies - it takes me a few days to digest everything sometimes!

@Rockylove - I do frequently ask H if he has any suggestions about what he would like for us to do together - his response is that usually he plans all our time together and he wants me to plan something - this is one of those "sort-of" truths.  Almost anything I suggest or try to plan is pooh-poohed by him for some reason or other (the main underlying, unspoken reason being that most anything I plan does not involve alcohol).  I don't make much effort to plan "together" time anymore.

Grand plans - H is definitely a "grand plan starter" and then the work of either implementing or maintaining the plan falls to me and our kiddos.  Sometimes, we succeed and sometimes ... .  well, we fail to meet whatever his expectation may be and ... .  grrrrrr.

Armchair psych - I think that it is wonderful if H is able to make troubled people feel heard and able to walk away from the conversation with some ideas for problem resolution.  In a lot of cases though (and it is getting more pronounced), I believe H projects their problems on our relationship and I become the "other person's-other person" (does that make sense?).  I know pwBPD are master projectors.  Not sure how to address this since sometimes it is not so obvious, but I can sense it and other times, he will out-right call me by a person he finds disgusting name while sharing how my attributes match the "disgusting" person.  (I handle the second issue by either walking away or if in the most recent case, he called me by my brother's name, I walked away, but later told him that my brother is a good man, who works hard, pays his bills, is a devoted father, and I considered it an honor to be compared to him)

Trying to teach a duck to bark only frustrates you and pisses off the duck

Love this - I use something similar when H is trying (with our employees or kids) to put a square peg in a round hole, ":)on't send your ducks to eagle school!"