Why did I ignore the red flags?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I've been posting on leaving board but trying to move away a little from the anger and confusion to more questions about me and my role in the relationship.  I have been around these boards on and off for years (staying/undecided/leaving and back again)  this time I do feel more detached than ever before (still a bit to go!)

I was looking at my journal from our first years together (a long time ago) and reminded again that there was a pattern even then of exH 'threatening' to leave of breaking up and then reconciling very quickly.  There was a lot about my confusion and hurt as well as entries in journal about how happy I was - a rollercoaster even then.

I am trying to work out why I thought this was OK back then?  Did my going along with this set a pattern?  He was my first boyfriend so I hadn't had another relationship to compare this to.  I was drawn to his intensity and felt I complemented him as I was fairly 'even keel'. 

I did not start a relationship with anyone during our separations in recent years so he's still the only partner I've had. 

It seems obvious when I look back that things were unhealthy from the start but I seem to have been determined to 'make it work'.  What also shocks me is that there was a point before our first separation (after being married many years) that I felt suffocated and secretly wished for time alone - so why when he eventually left did I go to pieces?  Was iy the instant 'replacement'?  Or do I have abandonment issues of my own?

I really want to work out why I have been so enmeshed with someone I knew at one level I needed to be away from in order to be myself.  it scares me that my moods and feelings have been so tied to his. 

I am trying to put myself back in that time where I remember thinking I'd need to leave to be able to breathe.  I have that opportunity now as he is marrying someone else but I am really up and down about his moving on.

I saw a T for many years during the recycles - she was great but we spent most of the time dealing with exH's latest bombshell.  Seeing a new T now who is very different and is concentrating totally on me - I am resisting but trying not to!  I really want to understand why I have allowed myself to stay in this relationship so long when it should have been blatantly obvious some time ago that it was not going to be healthy for me.

[clairedair]

I've been posting on leaving board but trying to move away a little from the anger and confusion to more questions about me and my role in the relationship.  I have been around these boards on and off for years (staying/undecided/leaving and back again)  this time I do feel more detached than ever before (still a bit to go!)

I was looking at my journal from our first years together (a long time ago) and reminded again that there was a pattern even then of exH 'threatening' to leave of breaking up and then reconciling very quickly.  There was a lot about my confusion and hurt as well as entries in journal about how happy I was - a rollercoaster even then.

I am trying to work out why I thought this was OK back then?  Did my going along with this set a pattern?  He was my first boyfriend so I hadn't had another relationship to compare this to.  I was drawn to his intensity and felt I complemented him as I was fairly 'even keel'. 

I did not start a relationship with anyone during our separations in recent years so he's still the only partner I've had. 

It seems obvious when I look back that things were unhealthy from the start but I seem to have been determined to 'make it work'.  What also shocks me is that there was a point before our first separation (after being married many years) that I felt suffocated and secretly wished for time alone - so why when he eventually left did I go to pieces?  Was iy the instant 'replacement'?  Or do I have abandonment issues of my own?

I really want to work out why I have been so enmeshed with someone I knew at one level I needed to be away from in order to be myself.  it scares me that my moods and feelings have been so tied to his. 

I am trying to put myself back in that time where I remember thinking I'd need to leave to be able to breathe.  I have that opportunity now as he is marrying someone else but I am really up and down about his moving on.

I saw a T for many years during the recycles - she was great but we spent most of the time dealing with exH's latest bombshell.  Seeing a new T now who is very different and is concentrating totally on me - I am resisting but trying not to!  I really want to understand why I have allowed myself to stay in this relationship so long when it should have been blatantly obvious some time ago that it was not going to be healthy for me.

[marbleloser]

I'm sorry clairedair.It hurts to read this because I've asked the same question.

"I really want to understand why I have allowed myself to stay in this relationship so long when it should have been blatantly obvious some time ago that it was not going to be healthy for me."

I don't think we have abandonment issues,but more like "alone" issues.Read 2010's posts on Lonely Child and Abandoned Child.

For myself,I feel empty being alone.The house is empty.My day is empty(although I do socialize at work,etc.,,)

After being married for 20 years,it's very difficult learning to be alone.I haven't been alone since I was 22 years old and even then,I dated.

I think we both need to learn to like being with ourselves.I was at that point one time,but the loneliness creeps back in.We allowed all kinds of "abuse",because we felt we didn't deserve any better.This gets reinforced everytime we let them cross a boundary,degrade us,emotionaly abuse us,and neglect us.It's a pattern that we

let happen.We try to please them even more,but the bar gets raised higher,until we can't even attempt to live up to their expectations.

It's our own low level of self esteem that works against us,and our empathy,trust,need to do the right thing,need to give it all we have,when we should have been loved for just being "us".Not for what we could do for someone.

OK,now tears are welling up and I'll stop,but that's why we ignore the red flags.We also think we can change them or that they'll realize how good we are to them if we just do one more thing.We would never be good enough or do enough though.It's a broken relationship.

[Cumulus]

Indeed it is a broken relationship, a sick unhealthy relationship for me, one that felt incestuous towards the end.  I'm in your group, long time in the marriage and left wondering, why so many years. My easy answer is commitment, loyalty, shared family and what I believed to be shared goals and dreams. I've been searching myself to find the deeper reasons, the ones that I have hidden. I don't know if I have the answers yet but here are some of the things I've considered.

- It was easy. I didn't have to put forth much effort into the relationship because there wasn't one there. If I wanted something I did it. Sure I had to put up with his nagging and derogatory remarks but I learned to tune him out.

- He needed me. He couldn't survive without me. OK, so what does that say about me. I didn't need love as much as I needed to be needed. And yes, he is surviving quite well without me. After all, he is an adult.

- Things didn't seem that bad. No, he wasn't a partner in the relationship, more like my child really, but we did fun things together. And it always seemed like things were getting better. You can't have everything, right?

So those I take responsibility for. But the greatest reason by far that I stayed was because of his ability to lie and deceive so well. I didn't know who I was living with. If I had, I know I would have left far sooner.

[marbleloser]

I've resigned myself to accept that such a long term RS is going to take a while to get over.We're finding a new "normal" and that's going to take some time to adjust to.

"commitment, loyalty, shared family and what I believed to be shared goals and dreams"

I like this  Very admirable goals in a RS.

[clairedair]

thanks marbleloser and cumulus

We try to please them even more,but the bar gets raised higher,until we can't even attempt to live up to their expectations.

It's our own low level of self esteem that works against us,and our empathy,trust,need to do the right thing,need to give it all we have,when we should have been loved for just being "us".Not for what we could do for someone.

I struggle with the issue of self-esteem - not because I feel it's low but the opposite.  I'd have said I had pretty high self-esteem but can that really be the case if I've allowed this to happen?  I do like to please others though - never like it when anyone is angry with me or disapproves of something I did.  I know part of why I reconciled was because it was so good to hear him tell me that I was OK (more than OK)... .   but then I'd be back to being 'not what he hoped for'.

Things didn't seem that bad. No, he wasn't a partner in the relationship, more like my child really, but we did fun things together. And it always seemed like things were getting better. You can't have everything, right?

So those I take responsibility for. But the greatest reason by far that I stayed was because of his ability to lie and deceive so well. I didn't know who I was living with. If I had, I know I would have left far sooner.

My new T described exH as a 'passionate toddler' - I thought that a very apt description.  I love the passion and excitement he can express but it does come with tantrums and needing looked after.  I feel an attachment to him even now that's more like a parent to a child.  I am actually worried about what'll happen to him even though he seems so happy about his new relationship.

He certainly deceived me - I think it was more about lying to himself than to me.  I think he really believed he loved me when he said he did but it wasn't really love - more like need.  And I deceived myself because I have known about BPD for some years and even though he's diagnosed, I'd seen enough traits and read enough posts here to know better than to believe that this time really was better and we could have a healthy relationship.

So, I need to look at my own self-esteem and at my own ability to deceive myself about reality of our situation.  Have only been seeing new T for a couple of weeks but she's really pushing me which is good.  I'm resisting her in some ways and I think that's a sign that there's stuff I've not been ready to face.

[nona]

I had one of those too. A passionate toddler.

I have had the guilt of "leaving a baby behind" too.


Mine was SUCH a good liar, that coupled with my level of denial was a bad combination.

Sometimes now I feel like a big baby. Much more sensitive and vulnerable than I was  allowed in the not really a r/s.



The old familiar cognitive dissonance is how I ignored the red flags ... .   my emotional/partnership needs were reflected, mirrored, and verbalized ad nauseam which I confused with "being acknowledged", while I was being told I was so needy I was "sucking the air out of the room".

Him "not really being there" was familiar FOO crap for me.

The fog was too.

[Cumulus]

Hi clairedair, if you are able or when you are able it would be really helpful if you could share some insight into your ability to deceive yourself. I think that is a really pertinent question for me as well. There was a book I read (not re: BPD) called Willful Blindness, and it did answer many questions. It discusses the ways deceiving people are able to manipulate others. Bernie Madoff is one of the examples used in the book. One of the methods my xBPDh used was to set himself up as an authority in different areas. And I didn't question his "authority". I assumed it to be true. This was in many areas of our personal life, such as the right way to hold a fork, the right way to travel, the right way to save money, I could go on but I think that pretty much shows the idea I am trying to express. All the best to you.

Nona, after ignoring our needs and giving endlessly with little return to another it is little wonder we end up feeling more like a parent then a partner. And when we are done and have moved into this new life I think it is ok for us to baby ourselves for a little while. 

[Blazing Star]

I struggle with the issue of self-esteem - not because I feel it's low but the opposite.  I'd have said I had pretty high self-esteem but can that really be the case if I've allowed this to happen?  I do like to please others though - never like it when anyone is angry with me or disapproves of something I did.  I know part of why I reconciled was because it was so good to hear him tell me that I was OK (more than OK)... .   but then I'd be back to being 'not what he hoped for'.

This resonates with me. When I was first looking into codependency stuff I found something that helped me untangle this a little. I read about how sometimes our self-worth is tied to people pleasing, that we get value and 'feel-good' from being a this way. E.g. I really value being compassionate and helping others, but when that becomes entwined with how I feel about myself then that is a problem - does this make sense? It is a fine line between "Compassion and kindness are important values to me" and "If I am not being compassionate or helping someone, then I am not a good person/don't feel good about myself".

So it's been the work on boundaries, seeing the line where I end and others begin, and realising my triggers that has helped me. It is still a bit blurred, that line between value and self-worth, but I know that being aware of it is half way there.

It's great that you are sensing the resistance in yourself with your T, keep pushing through it, it will be worth it.

Love Blazing Star

[Maryiscontrary]

My 2 cents. As blazing star said, when you really realize what you are, and how much worth and class you really have, you will start laying down boundaries left and right. You might also realize just how prevalent liars and manipulators are, which I am having a hard time digesting myself, and the fury is hard to contain.

These are when a person might take a machete and cut ties to all behavior that violates one's precious and dear values. Red flags manefest from vague awareness to extreme "in your face" feelings.

[P.F.Change]

I really want to work out why I have been so enmeshed with someone I knew at one level I needed to be away from in order to be myself.  it scares me that my moods and feelings have been so tied to his. 

We do the things we do for some kind of payoff. This can be either reasonable and healthy or misguided and harmful. What were you getting out of the enmeshment and recycles? What was the payoff for you?

If you were willfully deceiving yourself, what was the payoff there? What would have happened if you had been willing to see things more realistically and ended the r/s early on? Would doing so have threatened the payoff you wanted?

Wishing you peace,

PF

[clairedair]

We do the things we do for some kind of payoff. This can be either reasonable and healthy or misguided and harmful. What were you getting out of the enmeshment and recycles? What was the payoff for you?

If you were willfully deceiving yourself, what was the payoff there? What would have happened if you had been willing to see things more realistically and ended the r/s early on? Would doing so have threatened the payoff you wanted?

Some good questions that I may need to think about more. 

I think what I got out of the recycle was the validation that he really did want to be with me and that it was other stuff that got in the way.  I loved the feeling of believing that, deep down, he really loved me.  The deceiving myself would kick in when he started to drift away and instead of walking away, I would tell myself to be more patient that if I did x or y or said x or y we could ride out the dysregulation storm without him leaving.  For most of my life, I avoided difficult questions/unpleasant realities and I've come a long way from then as I now am more willing to face difficult situations and emotions.  However, I have really resisted the reality of our relationship being broken beyond repair.  I'm not sure what the payoff is here because I don't feel that I could never love or be loved again and I am mostly OK on my own - I don't feel lonely.

I don't know why it was so important to me that this worked out when there was a sea of red flags waving in my face.  I had been willing to see the flags and leave, I think others would now respect me more.  I wouldn't feel so used.  But I also feel that I did everything humanly possible - why that is more important to me than respect, I'd need to think about.

I think maybe I should reframe the question to "why did I see the red flags and still think we could work things out?"

[P.F.Change]

 

I loved the feeling of believing that, deep down, he really loved me. 

What would it have said about you if he didn't?

Did sticking through it give you a sense of nobility, or would giving up on him have made you a failure?

Was there anyone else in your past (maybe your FOO) that might have made you work to feel loved?

Don't know if any of those questions is pertinent, just throwing out some things to think about.

PF

[clairedair]

I loved the feeling of believing that, deep down, he really loved me. 

What would it have said about you if he didn't?

Not sure - probably that I was 'not good enough'.  For a lot of our marriage, I felt that he loved me more than I loved him but I often felt that I was letting him down in some way.  He took on roles/jobs caring for others; was not in least materialistic etc.  People would ask me what it was like living with a saint.  I felt that I was a kind and good person on the whole but fell short of a standard.  This was tied to my childhood faith as well. 

Did sticking through it give you a sense of nobility, or would giving up on him have made you a failure?

This is a good one!  Yes - there's a certain pride sometimes in feeling that I stuck through it and was 'strong' enough to get back up again and fight.  I don't usually think in terms of being a failure but I know I find it hard to 'let go' whether it's a work project or a relationship so maybe there is a need to be 'successful' even though sticking with dysfunction can't really be termed success!

Was there anyone else in your past (maybe your FOO) that might have made you work to feel loved?

No - always felt loved but there's a link here to my answer to the first question.  Whilst I felt loved by FOO and then by husband, I did feel/do feel with both that I wasn't always OK just being me.  Growing up it was more about having a strong faith and following certain rules.  I wasn't at all rebellious in my behaviour but I was pushing stuff down in order to be acceptable.  This denial of self all came to a head just after my exH's first major blow-out when I was told that I 'wasn't what he'd hoped fpr'.  I really rebelled then!  Caused major damage and I then reverted to type and tried even harder to make up for my 'sins' but with help of good T and some hard work, I slowly managed to find a way to be more myself.  Although that time was horrendous, I definitely feel more able to do/say what I want and not what others expect but there's still a bit to go before I could say that I am completely authentic and not still doing some things to please others at the expense of my self-respect and happiness.

[Maryiscontrary]

I think the take home lesson is that we should not feel like we have to actively labor to earn others respect and love. There is really "nothing" to prove.

[Wooddragon]

When I first started seeing red flags I would never have expected or realised that what they were indicating was that this wonderful caring man who loved me more than words could express was actually a manipulative chronic liar with a serious mental health issue. It's only with that understanding that the red flags go ( in hindsight) from being " hmm that's a bit odd" to "run like hell and don't look back!" ... .