What for you is the line in the sand?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Is or was there a behavior that the pwBPD did that simply went too far -- something you could not forgive? Something that made it impossible to continue the relationship at all?

[snowwhite]

Is or was there a behavior that the pwBPD did that simply went too far -- something you could not forgive? Something that made it impossible to continue the relationship at all?

[Lady31]

This is sad to say, but things getting physical.  I never thought that would happen.  And now that I am living apart and seeing things more and more clearly - I see where the line SHOULD have been WAY back down the line, well before it ever got to that point.

Wow.  The things we learn about ourselves.

[laelle]

When I realized that my needs would never be considered.  Any moment that I tried to express them, I was gas lit or broken up with.  They were never even up for serious

discussion.  His needs were so painful and prominent for him that mine were a bother to him, and he was insulted that I could even have them.  How dare I?

I realized simultaneously that I had needs and that I didnt need someone to tell me they were valid.  They were valid because they existed.  

I love me, and the me that I am is good.  I dont need anyone else to define me.  I am perfectly able of doing that myself.

I know the me that I am is good, now I need to figure out who I am.  What do I like?  How do I feel about myself?  What would I like to see in my future?

There is no one to stop me because my needs and wants are being filled by the only person who can with love, endurance and passion.  ME.

I will leave him to do the same for himself... .  

[copingwithhim]

During the period that we were working on our marriage, I forgave his infidelity "what else can I do to help repair our marriage?"

His reply: "I want you to sleep with another man."

Me: "Two wrongs don't make a right.  That is something I will not do."

At our next MC session, 30 minutes into it, he finally blurted out that he had filed for divorce.

I thanked the Counselor for his time and support, I then looked at my husband, "jumping from woman to woman will never solve anything for you.  I don't ever want to see you, nor speak to you ever again."  I got up, stroked his cheek "I loved you so much," and walked out the door.

The counselor told me later that he just sat there, stunned for the remainder of the time.

It's been a year and I have not responded to his calls, letters or e-mails.  I've seen him twice for legal proceedings, but have not spoken to him.

CwH

[imstronghere2]

Well, let's see.  When my exwBPD flipped out, she lied, deceived, cheated, disrespected (to an extreme), manipulated constantly, used, abused, betrayed me and then abandoned our family. 

Yup, that pretty much did it.   

[imstronghere2]

Me: "Two wrongs don't make a right.  That is something I will not do."

I thanked the Counselor for his time and support, I then looked at my husband, "jumping from woman to woman will never solve anything for you.  I don't ever want to see you, nor speak to you ever again."  I got up, stroked his cheek "I loved you so much," and walked out the door.

It's been a year and I have not responded to his calls, letters or e-mails.  I've seen him twice for legal proceedings, but have not spoken to him.

CwH

   Good for you!  Stay strong.  It is so damn hard when we loved them so much but you absolutely did the right thing.

[babyducks]

the line for me was when we crossed from angry volatile discussion to an outburst of violence.  I still have a hard time accepting it but bottom line, its unsafe for me to spend time with her.

[laelle]

the line for me was when we crossed from angry volatile discussion to an outburst of violence.  I still have a hard time accepting it but bottom line, its unsafe for me to spend time with her.

So your boundaries here are that you will not take part in hurtful and violent disputes?

You will not be in a relationship where you do not feel safe?

[Maryiscontrary]

When he denied he knocked a piece of lawn furniture into my arm, it was over unless solutions were immediately found. He lied, and denied, even with multiple people confronting him. Like what was said, my needs meant nothing, because of all of the turbulence in his head. I gave him opportunity for pursuing solutions, but instead he tried turning everyone against me.

Good bye, idiot.

[babyducks]

laelle,  

Correct. I will not stay in a relationship that swirls with hurtful and violent disputes.  In our last intensely emotional exchange one of her comments wounded me terribly. I'm sure you know how I goes,  it was all my fault, I wasn't doing enough to make her happy and clearly I was morally reprehensible person.   I was up and on my way out the door when in my pain, anger and frustration I threw a wicked right hook into the wall.  The punch broke my right hand.  Stupid and embarrassing but there you have it.  I have never hit anything in my life.  I have had surgery to repair the badly broken bone in my hand.  A classic boxers fracture.  Right now I have a great amount of evidence about how unsafe it is for me to spend time with her.   It is 6 days since I broke things off with her.   The fog is just starting to lift a little and I am working towards safety and healing.  In that order.

[VeryFree]

I think I can forgive everything, from the first act of verbal agression, to the physical abuse.

All those things crossed the line by far and looking back I should have been out of the r/s before it even started.

I'm not full of hate though, even if she tries to make my life miserable still. Well, it's part of her illness. It makes me sad, I hope she overcomes it. But I forgive her.

[wishingwell17]

The quote from laelle sums it up for me. This was present from day one and the behavior was so foreign to me I think I told myself I was simply lost in the translation. I know differently now.

His needs were so painful and prominent for him that mine were a bother to him, and he was insulted that I could even have them.

[fakename]

this is a good thread.

hahah, i have plenty of lines in the sand, being lied to, cheated on, manipulated, verbally and physically abused. i know from now on i wont stand for any of it without careful look at the surrounding circumstance... .

i'm at a point where i forgive her for everything in the past. i'm a forgiving guy and dont want to hold on to any hatred or anger. would i take her back? i dont know, i think i've learned too much and dont have a strong enough belief that things would be different or that she would be committed to working on her issues.

so i guess lines in the sand were drawn to be ignored to experience the consequences so that i could draw new lines and understand why i have drawn them

[Lucky Jim]

Friends,

When my line in the sand was crossed many times, that ultimately became my line in the sand.  I am a forgiving person and was willing to give my BPD Ex numerous second chances, yet none proved effective.

I can relate to all of the above: intense arguments crossing over into physical violence; constant threats based on FOG (fear, obligation & guilt); feeling unsafe around this person; checking the escape routes to prevent my BPD Ex from blocking the exit; keeping a bag packed with my clothes and essentials in the car; and other obvious red flags too numerous to mention.

[LetItBe]

When I realized that my needs would never be considered.  Any moment that I tried to express them, I was gas lit or broken up with.  They were never even up for serious

discussion.  His needs were so painful and prominent for him that mine were a bother to him, and he was insulted that I could even have them.  How dare I?

I realized simultaneously that I had needs and that I didnt need someone to tell me they were valid.  They were valid because they existed.  

I love me, and the me that I am is good.  I dont need anyone else to define me.  I am perfectly able of doing that myself.

I know the me that I am is good, now I need to figure out who I am.  What do I like?  How do I feel about myself?  What would I like to see in my future?

There is no one to stop me because my needs and wants are being filled by the only person who can with love, endurance and passion.  ME.

I will leave him to do the same for himself... .  

You sound like you are doing great, laelle!  Yay!  

I, too, finally realized that even my very basic, minimal, easy-to-fulfill needs wouldn't be met in that r/s (after the line in the sand was crossed numerous times).  Oh, he'd listen when I expressed my needs -- and in the moment, he'd seem very understanding and come to agreements with me about ways to meet me halfway.  He'd thank me for expressing myself.  However, when it came time for his actions to back up his words, zero, zilch, nada.  He'd accuse me of "trying to trick" him, and he'd get extremely dysregulated and withhold his affection and time afterward.  I learned that asking him for something meant I'd be punished.

I'm loving myself now the way I've deserved to be loved all along.  

[Pearl99]

Many months after the break up, I have forgiven my ex everything. I understand the behaviors that destroyed our relationship will destroy all his future relationships--if he does not accept he has a problem and receive intense therapy. I was able to forgive and feel sad for him because it must be awful living with borderline and narcissistic traits, or the full-blown disorders. He almost always seemed in a state of emotional turmoil with no peace. That is miserable, and I cannot imagine anyone choosing to act and live the way he did. It is self-defeating.

That being said, yes there was a line drawn in the sand. He went into a rage at me in public over something small, and I became terrified of him. I always "walked on eggshells" around him, fearing I was going to say something to make him snap at me. But this rage was the scariest I had ever seen, and it triggered major panic and fear in me to the point I had to shut him out of my life. I realized I could not marry someone I was terrified of, and who would not allow me to make even small decisions independently. He broke my spirit that night when he said the words "I hate you". He never said those words to me before and something died inside me.

[laelle]

I'm loving myself now the way I've deserved to be loved all along.

Damn straight! 

[lhd981]

Though it's never happened in a relationship prior to my last one, physical violence is something that I simply cannot and will not tolerate - as I found out quite unexpectedly.

I have many CD traits, and had my BPD exgf not laid a hand on me during what would be our final fight, I likely would have gone out of my way to contact her and "apologize" (even though I did nothing wrong). Sure, part of me still wanted to reach out to her in the past year that we were NC, but recalling her violent physical outburst kept even my most insidious CD tendencies at bay.

I've actually thought about this quite frequently. After all, she didn't inflict any wound or cause any physical pain - heck, she's less than half my size; but the principle of what she did goes against every value that I have. Even though my CD/low self esteem works against those values to keep me in unhealthy relationships, I suppose everyone has their limits. That was mine.

[patientandclear]

The final straw for me came long after he betrayed me when he suddenly ended our romantic relationship, making me feel ___ty about my approach to parenting in the process (because that was the ostensible reason) ... .  and then betrayed me when, instead of working with me on the issues, he decided maybe I was just the wrong woman and went back to his prior gf ... .  though that didn't last long either.

I did 10 months of NC and finally reconstituted an emotionally intimate friendship with him that lasted 7 months.  He asked me to take all kinds of emotional risks with him in the friendship, as he had when we were lovers.

Then he suddenly left town to travel indefinitely.  And I still understood and was warm and supportive.  And then he suddenly decided to move to another city, within 36 hours of arriving there, for no particular reason.  And I (after much consternation and discussion on Staying) told him OK, but you will be giving up something important if you do that -- to a significant degree, our relationship, as well as other aspects of your established life that are good and can be deepened if you stay in place.  Something he has never done.

And he stopped communicating with me entirely.  5 weeks ago.

So the line in the sand for me is that, after he urged me to be honest with him and not self-censor and to be close to him and care about him and accept caring from him again, after all the hurt that had already happened ... .  he would not be able to hear from me the smallest little bit of true feedback about the cost of just uprooting everything and leaving, when things feel bad.

I can't keep caring that much about someone with whom I cannot be lovingly honest and maintain my integrity, not only toward myself, but also toward him and our relationship.

[laelle]

The final straw for me came long after he betrayed me when he suddenly ended our romantic relationship, making me feel ___ty about my approach to parenting in the process (because that was the ostensible reason) ... .  and then betrayed me when, instead of working with me on the issues, he decided maybe I was just the wrong woman and went back to his prior gf ... .  though that didn't last long either.

I did 10 months of NC and finally reconstituted an emotionally intimate friendship with him that lasted 7 months.  He asked me to take all kinds of emotional risks with him in the friendship, as he had when we were lovers.

Then he suddenly left town to travel indefinitely.  And I still understood and was warm and supportive.  And then he suddenly decided to move to another city, within 36 hours of arriving there, for no particular reason.  And I (after much consternation and discussion on Staying) told him OK, but you will be giving up something important if you do that -- to a significant degree, our relationship, as well as other aspects of your established life that are good and can be deepened if you stay in place.  Something he has never done.

And he stopped communicating with me entirely.  5 weeks ago.

So the line in the sand for me is that, after he urged me to be honest with him and not self-censor and to be close to him and care about him and accept caring from him again, after all the hurt that had already happened ... .  he would not be able to hear from me the smallest little bit of true feedback about the cost of just uprooting everything and leaving, when things feel bad.

I can't keep caring that much about someone with whom I cannot be lovingly honest and maintain my integrity, not only toward myself, but also toward him and our relationship.

   P&C, You are such a wonderful person.  I was sad to hear he stopped contacting you. I know how much he means to you. You are who you are, and if he cant accept that it is truly his loss. 

[clairedair]

I can't keep caring that much about someone with whom I cannot be lovingly honest and maintain my integrity, not only toward myself, but also toward him and our relationship.

[Lucky Jim]

Well said, Pearl99.  Those w/BPD do engage in a host of self-defeating behaviors, yet can't stop themselves from doing it.

As one writer put it, it's pointless "trying to save those who fundamentally would rather not be saved."  To keep trying is what many of us have done, to no avail.

You put it well P&C, as quoted by Clairedair.

[BradyK]

For me the line in the sand was this: I found myself in a conversation with my then uBPDbf where I could not discern, even after direct questioning, if he had been cheating on me or not. And, on top of that, I could actually see how his infidelity could be perfectly reasonable, if in fact it was happening, which I was not sure of, and which I never suspected, until he told me, or did he? and was it really "cheating" in his mind ? and why should infidelity necessarily be a deal breaker in a relationship anyway ?... .  and round and round.

It finally struck me that the fact that we were even having this conversation, and that I could be so confused about this issue, and not be able to easily clarify what was true between us, was just crazy, and that I needed to just walk away from the conversation and the relationship.

But in fact I let him cross other boundaries, that should have been lines in the sand, previous to this.  I have not figured out why I allowed him to transgress so far. 

[fakename]

@patientandclear,

such a great post, thank you for that

@bradyk,

that's hilarious.  makes me remember how i would have such irrational conversations like that, and even on that topic.

hearing your words helps reinforce it was crazy for me to even entertain such conversations and think there was substance behind the relationship... .  can't believe that

[Wooddragon]

Mine was when I realised that his lies and manipulations were deliberate & that he was well aware of what he was doing with zero concern for my feelings as long as his needs were met. When I finally realised this, it also occurred to me that all those hurtful things he had "accidentally said the wrong way" were probably quite deliberate - to "punish" me & satisfy his sadistic narcissism. After seeing someone as a monster, anything positive about them is eclipsed. I went nc immediately & that was 10 weeks ago.

So the line in the sand was my own realisation & acknowledgment of what he actually is.