So do BPD People think everyone else is crazy?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I've been thinking about this a lot latley, it's clear the BPD person does not have empathy, and doesn't look at things the way we do especially their emotionally stunted growth.  It seems that everyone who gets involved with a BPD winds up being deeply hurt and scarred.  Wwe all make attempts to get them or let them back into our lives because we can't handle the pain of seperating from them.  I wonder if they think we're all crazy, I mean only a crazy person would put up with what we put up with.

So I wonder if that re-enforces their behavior.  Or maybe somewhere deep down they have some kind of concept of the pain they caused us?

Thoughts?

[costadelmar]

I've been thinking about this a lot latley, it's clear the BPD person does not have empathy, and doesn't look at things the way we do especially their emotionally stunted growth.  It seems that everyone who gets involved with a BPD winds up being deeply hurt and scarred.  Wwe all make attempts to get them or let them back into our lives because we can't handle the pain of seperating from them.  I wonder if they think we're all crazy, I mean only a crazy person would put up with what we put up with.

So I wonder if that re-enforces their behavior.  Or maybe somewhere deep down they have some kind of concept of the pain they caused us?

Thoughts?

[changingme]

Your statement about a pwBPD not having empathy is not true. I don't think they think we are crazy, I don't think we are crazy, I think they just don't understand they have an issue that needs correcting. 

[hithere]

I think people with BPD lack empathy, if it is not a total lack it is definitely a very skewed one.

And I think there are two parts to people with BPD thinking others are crazy, number one their lives are very crazy because of all the chaos and that is enough to drive a normal person pretty wacky.  Number 2 they think other people are crazy because they live in a different reality and the only other alternative to thinking others are crazy is to admit they are the crazy ones, which won't happen.

I should give the disclaimer that the term or meaning of crazy can be pretty broad and is open to an individuals interpretation, so this is my own opinion.

[Vegasskydiver]

Me exBPDbf  very rarely had empathy for anyone, especially me.  Even when my Dad was dying of Cancer and I was a complete wreck, he could not be supportive because he did not have a close relationship with his parents, thus he didn't understand those of us who did.  Frequently following his RAGES, he would tel me I was bat sh** crazy, even though I would pretty much sit back and say nothing or leave his house when he was abusive... .  so I say yes to both.

[jj2121]

I don't think so. my ex told me she was weird and not right. I thought I was crazy after the breakup going on at her, but she said to me I know your not a nutter,ha. Although she would later deny anything was wrong with her, when her mood changed. She also did say in the end, think what you want from me.

[seeking balance]

I've been thinking about this a lot latley, it's clear the BPD person does not have empathy, and doesn't look at things the way we do especially their emotionally stunted growth.  It seems that everyone who gets involved with a BPD winds up being deeply hurt and scarred.  Wwe all make attempts to get them or let them back into our lives because we can't handle the pain of seperating from them.  I wonder if they think we're all crazy, I mean only a crazy person would put up with what we put up with.

There are pwBPD who do wonder why someone would put up with their behavior - yes.

This isn't a lack of empathy as much as a rational thought.  Remember, pwBPD are not always triggered - there are clear/calm times when they know their behavior should not be tolerated and actually this thought process will feed into their abandonment fears.

So I wonder if that re-enforces their behavior.  Or maybe somewhere deep down they have some kind of concept of the pain they caused us?

I don't understand what you mean by re-enforces their behavior - can you explain it to me?

  Or maybe somewhere deep down they have some kind of concept of the pain they caused us?

They do know they cause us pain - however, that shame is so painful that they may revert to a maladaptive coping method (projection, gaslighting, alcohol, sex) to stop the pain of this shame.

[TheDude]

I don't believe that anyone has a complete lack of empathy, as it were. Varying degrees, perhaps, but not a complete absence. Even many serial killers have shown empathy (twisted though it may be). Rather, I believe that empathy may actually exacerbate things. By recognizing that someone is very hurt - especially if it's connected to a personal behavior - the defense mechanisms kick in (projection, denial, etc). Disorder or not, who is comfortable with the fact that they seriously hurt the closest person in their life? It's coping with that empathy that leads to such a cold and detached demeanor.

[patientandclear]

As our r/s went on and I came up with various rationales for continuing contact with my ex, he began to describe me as "naive" for coming up with excuses for his behavior.  He didn't think I was crazy but he did think I was gullible, had bad judgment, couldn't see the truth.

I saw more than I chose to share with him, and I had and enforced boundaries because of conclusions I'd drawn about him not being a trustworthy romantic/sexual partner (I wouldn't consider anything beyond an emotionally intimate friendship with him).  So this post isn't about how I was actually naive and gullible.  But he sure thought I was, just because I continued to like him and want to be close to him.

[Numbers]

Or maybe somewhere deep down they have some kind of concept of the pain they caused us?

Unfortunately, no.

Their reality does not equal yours or even universally accepted social mechanics. It is very obvious if you know what you need to look for or probe for reactions a bit. That reality is much simpler then ours. Just imagine if you could remove cause and effect and shades of gray from your life. And at the same time consider yourself as more functional then others. Bliss. PwBPD in my life has no ability to think outside of the box, no ability to create or expand her life toolbox and does not understand that life and circumstances change. She can only work with scarce and underdeveloped coping skills which in turn strengthens her habitual, almost mechanical behaviors and reactions.

So she is a perpetual victim - she cannot fathom that recurring rejection (friends, family, myself just in past months) is fueled by her deficiency, not superiority. She also cannot conceptualize responsibility or guilt because she cannot understand that anything she does or says has an effect in any other time frame then right now.

[sunrising]

"I don't know how you could still love me" is a phrase I heard a few times from my ex.  I think she really meant that.   One needn't dig far into that statement to find shame, nor a reason she might think I was "crazy" (given she had a good point).

[bruceli]

Their reality does not equal yours or even universally accepted social mechanics. It is very obvious if you know what you need to look for or probe for reactions a bit. That reality is much simpler then ours. Just imagine if you could remove cause and effect and shades of gray from your life. And at the same time consider yourself as more functional then others. Bliss. PwBPD in my life has no ability to think outside of the box, no ability to create or expand her life toolbox and does not understand that life and circumstances change. She can only work with scarce and underdeveloped coping skills which in turn strengthens her habitual, almost mechanical behaviors and reactions.

So she is a perpetual victim - she cannot fathom that recurring rejection (friends, family, myself just in past months) is fueled by her deficiency, not superiority. She also cannot conceptualize responsibility or guilt because she cannot understand that anything she does or says has an effect in any other time frame then right now.[/quote]
As i was once told by a pwBPD... .  it is as difficult for me to understand your world as it is for you to understand mine... .  

[MammaMia]

I believe they have empathy and sympathy but it is not what we experience.  We have to remember pwBPD experience emotions differently than we do.  Take your emotions and magnify them by 100.  Their reality and emotions are in hyper-drive all the time.  It is easier for them to avoid reacting ... .  by not showing outward emotion. That does not mean they do not feel it (like so many other emotions) but they internalize what they feel.  My son has told me a thousand times, just because he does not show emotion (like remembering birthdays, etc) it does not mean he is not thinking about it.   He then beats himself up inside his head because he SHOULD be able to acknowledge a birthday.  But he can't.

BPD is a horrible disorder.  I hate it and what it does to those who suffer from it and the nons in their lives who cannot understand them.  So many victims.

[Mightyhammers]

I don't think so. my ex told me she was weird and not right. I thought I was crazy after the breakup going on at her, but she said to me I know your not a nutter,ha. Although she would later deny anything was wrong with her, when her mood changed. She also did say in the end, think what you want from me.

Yes I had this, at the start of the relationship she told me she was hard work, she told me on a number of occasions that she felt like the black sheep of her family, that she always f**ked everything up and everything she touched turned to ___ ( I asked her to expand what she meant but she didnt, in retrospect I think she was talking about us ), and one of her parting shots to me was something like 'Well now you can go and tell all your friends that I have a screw loose' - not ONCE did I ever discuss with her that she may have a condition or she is mental.

She knows there is something wrong with her but she doesnt know what it is

[tigertiger]

I think people with this shockingly cruel illness are capable of all these human traits but for the most part they are lost in some kind of obscure 'this second' vapour world.

To give you an example... .  after a few glasses of wine, my ex partner started reminiscing about an old flame who was the kindest man ever, she was about to tell the story about how they split up... .  because of how he lied etc... .  but for the briefest of seconds whatever brain defence that usually was in place, for some reason wasn't there. To me she seemed to be hit with the real reason for the split, probably something she did and this brain wobble led her to let out the most unimaginable scream of terror/fear I've ever heard in my life. A moment later she actually passed out, because of the pain she actually felt from this thought. In the morning, I don't believe she had the faintest recollection that what happened... .  happened.

I can see why expert help is needed to address whatever it is. It's very sad... .  

[Louise7777]

Can 2-year olds have empathy or mercy? 

[Tomzxz]

I think Numbers is spot on.  

These sufferers truly can’t see past their own world and if they do have a moment of lucid thought it won’t last very long.  They don’t seem to realize what harm they cause to their own relationships or the pain that that they cause in their partners. They push a normal person’s buttons, needle, shame and guilt you until you reach or exceed your breaking point.  If you do express anger they reap their “reward” by being the victim.  They don’t appear to ever take responsibility for their actions and can’t escape their own shame that is at the center of the disorder so they project it on the one that loves them most.  They always run or blame rather than face their fears, insecurities, guilt and shame.  I know for a fact that my Waif thought I was the controlling one in the relationship.  She had books about controlling men, narcissist and manipulation in her car (finding them was easy because I cleaned her car regularly). Some of the last fiction books she read when we were together were Jane Eyre and Anna Karenina (Woe is me stuff).  She had her therapist convinced that I was engulfing her and the therapist had her convinced she picks controlling men that manipulate her.  She erected boundaries in the end of the relationship to insulate herself from the perceived wrongdoing only to further sabotage the relationship. She would not express her feelings or listen to reason in connecting the dots of her family history, history of failed short term relationships and her own unhappiness… She takes great pride in her perceived self-reliance, but she’s afraid to need anyone and real loving requires that. She truly is a lost cause.  I had enough and ended it before she hurt me in other ways.  She truly is the “perpetual victim”; ironically, something she adamantly expressed hated for in other people.

[LimboFL]

Excellent topic, with amazingly insightful and important insight from posters.

It has been a while since I have been on the board. I always reap sorely needed food for thought, when I am forced to come back because out of nowhere, despite thinking I am through the worst of it, I get slammed with another wave of pain and missing. A wave that I am unable to reason with because I have a total understanding of what I left almost 6 months ago and have had very good stretches.

Despite wishing I didn't have to come back am always reminded of how much I gain from doing so.

[Trog]

My ex has about three breakdowns of a couple of days each when she would sob, especially in the evening, saying she was a bad person. Consoling her or saying she wasn't a bad person only made her worse. In hindsight, though I never found any cheating this could have been related to her guilt towards me over something. Or it could not be related at all, just guilt plain and simple. And, she is a horrid person so I shouldn't have argued 

My ex thought everyone was crazy, for a while except me, because I was the only one who gave her any credence. I just don't know what she thinks, what she says and what she does never match, what she says she feels and then her actions, never match. I've given up trying to work out crazy. It's making me ugly & old. And I don't need to be ugly and old.

[MammaMia]

Trog

The answer to your question is absolutely, and no one will be able to change a BPD mind to conform with reality, because reality as we know it does not exist for them.

It is what it is.

[zundertowz]

I dont think that they think everyone is crazy but mine thought she was wronged by everyone and everyone else had problems... .just in our home everyone had anxiety, depression, and was in therapy including her 2 children who were medicated but she was fine... .her therapist told her so... .

[Madison66]

Really interesting thread!  My ex gf of 3+ years is/was uBPD/NPD as far as I know.  All I can tell you is that she may not have thought everyone else was crazy, but she would paint black anyone who stood up to her, questioned her behavior or walked away from her abuse.  She could rationalize the most irrational behavior in a way that was seemingly beyond simply being defensive, but rather believing her behavior was appropriate and the abuse doled on to others as justified.  In other words, maybe she didn't feel others were crazy.  She acted as if she believed others were a threat to her and her kids, and that was her reality.  I was a threat to her every time I questioned the irrational behavior.  She worked overtime attempting to convince me that her reality was rational and mine was not.  It was a horribly tiring game that I learned I couldn't win other than to leave the r/s.  I'm pretty sure nothing will change with her... .

[Infared]

Can 2-year olds have empathy or mercy?  

Mine was more like an 8-yr-0ld. So, occasionally she could. Rare though.  

[Infared]

I think Numbers is spot on.  

These sufferers truly can’t see past their own world and if they do have a moment of lucid thought it won’t last very long.  They don’t seem to realize what harm they cause to their own relationships or the pain that that they cause in their partners. They push a normal person’s buttons, needle, shame and guilt you until you reach or exceed your breaking point.  If you do express anger they reap their “reward” by being the victim.  They don’t appear to ever take responsibility for their actions and can’t escape their own shame that is at the center of the disorder so they project it on the one that loves them most.  They always run or blame rather than face their fears, insecurities, guilt and shame.  I know for a fact that my Waif thought I was the controlling one in the relationship.  She had books about controlling men, narcissist and manipulation in her car (finding them was easy because I cleaned her car regularly). Some of the last fiction books she read when we were together were Jane Eyre and Anna Karenina (Woe is me stuff).  She had her therapist convinced that I was engulfing her and the therapist had her convinced she picks controlling men that manipulate her.  She erected boundaries in the end of the relationship to insulate herself from the perceived wrongdoing only to further sabotage the relationship. She would not express her feelings or listen to reason in connecting the dots of her family history, history of failed short term relationships and her own unhappiness… She takes great pride in her perceived self-reliance, but she’s afraid to need anyone and real loving requires that. She truly is a lost cause.  I had enough and ended it before she hurt me in other ways.  She truly is the “perpetual victim”; ironically, something she adamantly expressed hated for in other people.

YES ... .it's a mental maze that no partner comes out of undamaged.

[jalen]

Like my friend said the normal ppl are on the bus to the asylum and all the craZy ppl are outside