Should I dump all my savings in the retainer, or trying to find pro bono?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

In short, right now I have a RTO because I had my husband arrested for lewd valiscious acts with my D(9). He already has a battery conviction in 2011, he was going up for a felony DV but it got downplayed to battery with restriction that he would do angermanagement and parenting classes. He still has a unsupervised probation for that... .  

I want full custody over the kids, better not visitation after all that has happened with this man. Foud out that he has a history of sexual abuse, he did "something" in 1983 with two very little stepsisters that he got a formal hearing for and was send off to a boys ranch. Family never informed me (how nice) he was labeled to be a sociopath with no conscious... .  

Anyways, I have seen 2 lawyers, lawyer #1 wants a retainer that is going to cost me $7500,- and lawyer #2 wants a retainer that is $5000,-

Both have said that it would be easy, because of his record, that I would get full custody. We have build a business together that he is working in right now, because of the situation I am no longer in the business working, but that is what I have done the last 10 years of my life. I also did the books, ... .  I know the numbers... .  but as self employed you do have write offs too... .  

Anyways, what to do? I would like to kiss all goodbye as long he is going to pay me child support and spousal support. I want nothing from the business he can keep it, together with everything else, I just want to move on with my live, have my kids and the custody and possibly move back to my home country with my kids, that is when he will not behave, or gets incarcerated or because I want to take care of my mother. All my family and friends are in my home country, that is where my support system is, not here... .  I have been very isolated during this relationship with this man.

Question is, should I sink all I have in the retainers, it is ALL I have and I will be left with zero in the bank account after that... .  what would you do?

[sosodestroyed]

In short, right now I have a RTO because I had my husband arrested for lewd valiscious acts with my D(9). He already has a battery conviction in 2011, he was going up for a felony DV but it got downplayed to battery with restriction that he would do angermanagement and parenting classes. He still has a unsupervised probation for that... .  

I want full custody over the kids, better not visitation after all that has happened with this man. Foud out that he has a history of sexual abuse, he did "something" in 1983 with two very little stepsisters that he got a formal hearing for and was send off to a boys ranch. Family never informed me (how nice) he was labeled to be a sociopath with no conscious... .  

Anyways, I have seen 2 lawyers, lawyer #1 wants a retainer that is going to cost me $7500,- and lawyer #2 wants a retainer that is $5000,-

Both have said that it would be easy, because of his record, that I would get full custody. We have build a business together that he is working in right now, because of the situation I am no longer in the business working, but that is what I have done the last 10 years of my life. I also did the books, ... .  I know the numbers... .  but as self employed you do have write offs too... .  

Anyways, what to do? I would like to kiss all goodbye as long he is going to pay me child support and spousal support. I want nothing from the business he can keep it, together with everything else, I just want to move on with my live, have my kids and the custody and possibly move back to my home country with my kids, that is when he will not behave, or gets incarcerated or because I want to take care of my mother. All my family and friends are in my home country, that is where my support system is, not here... .  I have been very isolated during this relationship with this man.

Question is, should I sink all I have in the retainers, it is ALL I have and I will be left with zero in the bank account after that... .  what would you do?

[ComoLu]

I have spent a lot of money on my attorney, and she has been worth every nickel.  You need to find someone you are comfortable with who can get you what you need whether paid or pro bono.  Talk to other people.  Get recommendations.  I was lucky.  My younger daughter is an attorney, and she knew just the person for me.  My x has spent at least as much as I have, and his attorney is an idiot.  Good for me, but my x just wanted someone who would do exactly what he said whether or not it was right or legal.  Be careful.  Do your research, but with all of the complications BPD behavior can cause, I would recommend getting someone sharp and no nonsense.  They need to know what they are up against.  Good luck, and I hope this helps. 

[marbleloser]

You need to assume your H is going to hire a good atty.You need to do the same.That said,when you file,request he pay your atty fees.That way you have it on record as a request.You'll most likely have to pay up front,but the court may order him to reimburse you at least half.

[scraps66]

Maybe due to the record, but those retainers seem quite high.  Common retainer in my parts - I've had three attorneys and all were $3,000.  If they know you can handle it they may be asking for a larger retainer just because they can.  If it's "easy" why should they need such a large retainer.  If you can continue to pay, it shouldn't matter.

Like I said, I've been through a couple lawyers, looking for another now and it's not easy.  And it shouldn't be.  From all I've done, I still think the best way of getting an attorney is to go to the courthouse and watch them work.  Hopefully you would see one that would be right for your case.  It is time consuming, but you don't want someone that you end up regretting.  I am now trying to sue my last attorney that saw my case of divorcing a mentally ill ex as an opportunity.

[ForeverDad]

In Bill Eddy & Randi Kreger's SPLITTING handbook it is recommended you get an assertive lawyer, not one who is blindly aggressive and not one at the other extreme who is laid back saying "I'll hold your hand and walk you through it and let the system do its thing." You need someone to vigorously stand up for you and the children.

In my area there are lawyers with a wide range of retainer amounts.  Mine was $2500, another I consulted later who my lawyer said was fine too (but seemed to have zero emotions) said the fee was $7500.  However, it was far more than a difference of retainer fees.  My lawyer said, ":)o you want a $5K divorce or a $30K divorce?"  The other one who quoted $7500 for a retainer added, "I'll probably use most of the retainer the first week reviewing your case."  I got the impression he was a bill-aholic.  I stuck with my current lawyer, though he didn't seem assertive enough, he was a problem-solver attorney, another good quality highlighted by SPLITTING.

Yes, file asking for the perfect outcome.  That seldom happens, but we have a saying here:  If you don't ask for it you won't get it, but if you do ask for it you might get it.

So do ask for him to pay or reimburse your legal fees.  Do ask for full custody.  Since custody often is not the same as parenting time, do ask for appropriate restrictions to his contact or visits with the children.  Find out what the state standard is for spousal support during the divorce, division of marital assets, alimony (probably 2-6 years) and child support.  Don't be timid.  Don't feel bad asking for your portion of marital assets and ongoing support for both you and the children.  You're the one who will be in charge of parenting for many years to come so it would be a real disservice to the children if you didn't stand up for both them and yourself.  Remember that courts seem to look for something to ignore from both spouses' petitions (1) partly because usually both sides ask for the moon and (2) so that neither parent walks out feeling he or she 'won'.

Beware of common character 'weaknesses' we Nice Guys and Nice Gals have.  Don't try to be too fair, too nice, too accommodating, too whatever.  Don't be guilted by his emotional pressuring.  It's probably best to keep it businesslike, don't be pressured by emotions.  Don't hide his behaviors or protect him either, let it all hang out.  Court may ignore a lot of minor misbehaviors, that's okay, mention everything but focus on the bigger issues.  When it comes to custody and parenting time, courts give more weight to the parenting behaviors rather than the adult behaviors (such as his conflictual relationship with you) so though you mention all major issues, give priority to those matters relating to his parenting behaviors and how it affects the children.

[sosodestroyed]

Ok read it all, good advice many thanks. The current lawyer that I have on my radar sits in as a judge on CPS cases, she was mortified when she heard what he had done to our children and kept saying that he should not be around the kids anymore... .  so I am thinking going with the advice that you all gave me, I should just go ahead and hand my life savings over to her

[egribkb]

Interview the attorney before you drop the cash and ask him/her what happens once the retainer has been eaten up. Many attorneys will instantly drop you and your case. Also, most attorneys never let the retainer get drained to zero before they start hitting you up for more money and it's always spelled out in the contract. So a possible scenario is you hand over $7k, the attorney spends it down to $3k and then that triggers the clause saying you need to pay another $4k RIGHT AWAY to get it back up to $7k balance. If you can't pay you are dropped. That doesn't mean they are stealing your $$, what it means is that you are then in the bad position of trying to find another attorney while in the middle of litigation and you have even less options because you have less money. Find an attorney that has payment conditions you can live with. And sad to say, plan now to get a lot of credit cards.

[ForeverDad]

This is precisely why you need to seek court to order your spouse to reimburse your legal fees (often decided later in the case) and to seek your full marital equity and seek support for yourself and the children.  The fact is that you can't afford to let him off the hook, not from the marriage, not from his consequences.

My ex apparently paid her lawyer at the end of our two year divorce with some of the marital equity she received from me.  So you may not have to pay everything up front.  It all depends on the state, court, lawyer, etc.

I think that lawyer is a good one for you.  Informed, aware, motivated, in her area of expertise.  She may even do a "sliding-scale" billing, taking into account your financial circumstances.  And, depending on your area, her retainer fee is more or less reasonable.  Perhaps a more important question is what her hourly billing rate is and how she bills.

[livednlearned]

My retainer was $5K.

After I blew through that (my case was not as clear cut as yours), I would pay my L in installments. A few times, even when I didn't owe her, I paid her ahead of time because I knew some big items were coming up. That seemed to endear her to me, and now she lets me pay in installments whenever I need to. I owe her $2K, and she will still represent me in a few weeks when N/BPDx and I go back to court.

There are some really caring Ls out there, altho in general many of them deserve the shark reputation they have.

Tell your L your circumstances, and what you plan to do when the retainer runs out so that she knows how you will pay her. I treated my L with respect, and she respected the way I conducted myself, and what I did for S11. Some Ls really do want to see the right thing happen for the kids.

Mine even gave me a gift certificate to get a pedicure, and offered me to stay at her beach house 

Just wanted to share that sometimes there are silver linings, even when it seems like there aren't 

[hithere]

size of the retainer does not always mean that much... .  even though your case sounds like a slam-dunk you could come up against some bumps and it could cost a lot more than $5k or $7.5k - what is the hourly rates of these lawyers? Try and get a recommendation from someone you know? Is there a government program that can help defer the cost?

[momtara]

I faced this choice too.  A good attorney is worthwhile.  Just make sure you are comfortable - that they seem confident, not wililng to hire 3 experts unless absolutely necessary, they explain everything fully, etc.

The diff between 5k and 7.5k may not be much if the 5k case goes over that amount anyway.  But I can see leaning toward the 5K.  Also look at the retainer agreements carefully.  I am glad they both said it seems like an easy case.  Some lawyers are reluctant to speculate.

What I learned is that you can put the amount on a credit card, then find a card that allows you to transfer the balance and not pay it off for a year.  You'll still have to pay it, but this way you have a little money left to live on.  There are a few websites that will rank cards by what you are looking for (low interest rates, etc... .  )  that is what I am going to do.

[momtara]

oh, the balance transfer will cost a few hundred (3-4 percent), but there should be a 0 percent interest rate for a year or 15 months.

[ComoLu]

Something else to look for in a good attorney.  Everyone told me mine was expensive, but she doesn't charge me for every paper clip and phone call, and she has been very assertive with me and with him.  I appreciate that.  She doesn't believe in wasting time.  My grown children have had attorneys for custody who have charged them for every cough.  Mine has been reasonable.  She didn't even charge me at all for a court appearance when my x didn't show up.  She charged me separate retainers for the property settlement and the divorce.  Ask around.  Find out what other people say. 

[sfbayjed]

I am not sure what your financial situation is, but if your income is under a certain level and you do not have lot of money you may qualify for a lower cost attorney through your county(if your county has a program).  I was very fortunate in that I was able to take advantage of the program in my county and I got one of the best family law lawyers in the area.  A much better lawyer than I had consulted with previously. I just can not say enough about how a good assertive lawyer (I am not a very assertive person) has helped. 

I would not listen to attorneys opinions of each other either, they all have rivalries. I actually had another attorney tell me not to use my current attorney because she wasn't good.  I am glad I did not listen.   

[sosodestroyed]

Going to check into the low cost lawyer, although time is running out. I have a hearing next week on the 8th for the TRO although I do not see why there would be an objection to that, I think I need to be ready for the mediation I think that will be set that day if I am correct.

I received the book "splitting" but honestly... .  after reading a few pages I became so discouraged that I had to put it to the side. It makes me so sad thinking that he would that easily throw us out like garbage... .  I have my moments that I totally cave.

This was the man I married 12 years ago leaving everything, and when I say everything, I mean everything. A stable job as spokesperson/Public Relationsfor the Dutch Government, a apartment that I had purchased not even a year before... .  Just to see where I am at right now with nothing but debts and a personality that is in constant fear of the other and what he might be up to... .  how sad!

[momtara]

Well, he may get a lawyer, so you should get a good one.  It is sad that this is happening, but it sounds like he does some scary stuff with kids.  Try to remind yourself of the bad, not just the good.  You need to protect the kid/s.  He may be sorry and hopefully will get some help now.

You don't always get chances like these to get custody or make sure your husband gets pushed into agreements or help, so take advantage.

[scraps66]

if it hasn't been mentioend, usually the courthouse or your county has a lawyer referral service.  A repository pool of lawyers that can help people out, maybe wihtou retainer.  The sounds of getting a "low cost lawyer," sounds like you may be compromising on services.  I know from experience, it takes awhile to get a lawyer and spending money on a retainer, right now, because there is a hearing coming up, it's just not something to rush into. 

Sorry, I hadn't read the rest of the thread if this is covered.  Divorcing a BP, this would be like someone in personality like the serial killer Ted Bundy, will likely not be easy and quick despite whatever groundwork has been laid.  So don't short yourself. 

[ForeverDad]

Well, he may get a lawyer, so you should get a good one.  It is sad that this is happening, but it sounds like he does some scary stuff with kids.  Try to remind yourself of the bad, not just the good.  You need to protect the kid/s... .  

You don't always get chances like these to get custody or make sure your husband gets pushed into agreements or help, so take advantage.

You don't have much time to make a big decision on which lawyer to hire.  Consultations are helpful and point you in the right direction but are limited.  Make a balanced decision, it would be an added expense to change lawyers later.

The sounds of getting a "low cost lawyer," sounds like you may be compromising on services... .  

Divorcing a BP... .  will likely not be easy and quick despite whatever groundwork has been laid.  So don't short yourself.

Who is the low cost lawyer?  I hope you're not referring to the difference in retainer fees.  A retainer is just that, a sum of money 'retained' so the lawyer knows there is a certain amount of money on hand for legal expenses.  If any portion is not used, it would be returned to you.  I think lawyers can only provide estimates, not promise a certain price for a case.

Remember too that you will be asking your spouse to pay your legal fees.  Hopefully he will be required to pay at least a portion or that you can pay later when you get your portion of the marital assets.

Ponder how best to proceed.  Generally the primary goal is to walk out in one piece with the children.  Everything else is still important, though secondary.  So if you're thinking, "I have to save money for later", that's generally not the best way to look at it.  Accept that a lot of the money will be gone.  Don't get me wrong, still ask the court for him to pay or reimburse you for it.  Or push for your fair portion of marital assets.  But if you need a good, experienced and assertive lawyer now, from the beginning of the case, don't shortchange yourself.

I received the book "splitting" but honestly... .  after reading a few pages I became so discouraged that I had to put it to the side. It makes me so sad thinking that he would that easily throw us out like garbage... .  I have my moments that I totally cave.

We understand.  But not everything in the Splitting handbook will happen to you.  Those are various examples and scenarios to help you avoid the common traps, misconceptions, blunders and bad outcomes.  Some will fit your case, many others won't.  But you have to be aware of the numerous ways you could make mistakes and actively try to avoid as many as you can.

[AnotherPhoenix]

  My experience is to start off your divorce case as strong as you can. Those "preliminary" meetings and rulings set precedents that can affect the rest of your divorce. It did for me! A good lawyer will help you a lot with that. A good lawyer might even save you money in the end.

I understand you probably have your L now. Work with him/her to make a strong case at the beginning.

AnotherPheonix 

[scraps66]

This is a good point about the precedent setting.  From my experience, if I had it to do again, I would be more rigid, proactive and aggressive on issues from the start.  In partiuclar on financial things like ex not reporting income.  If you give in here and there, with the broad specualtion on how things may go, they may go swiftly, or they may go not so swiftly, with a BP I'd say the percentages are toward the latter and not go swiftly, but be obstructed from progress.  That being said, if you compromise or let some things go along the way, those little things can add up to massive numbers in the end.  Also, you will endure regrets along the way in dealing with BP.  Just make sure that your decisions and movements do not allow your position to be weakened or induce regrets on yourself.  You don't have to be nice, you don't have to let guilt... .  the F.O.G. invade your psyche going forward.  Take care of the YOURself, first.   

[NewWays]

soaps... .  

All good things for you to consider!

My 2 cents... .  

1. I know the retainer monies are scary... .  But if you were going in for heart surgery would you want the cheapest or the surgeon that would provide you the greatest chance for success?

2.  Retainer is most often based on the cost of the different level of law firm staff that will actually log time on your proceedings and can be in the range as follows... .  

Sr. Partner - $400 - $450/Hour

Partner - $350 - $400/Hour

Sr. Attorney - $300 - $350/Hour

Attorney - $250 - $300/Hour

Paralegal - $200 - $250/Hour

You city size and if the firm specializes only in divorce can alter the per hour rate +/- $50 or so per hour.

3.  Check the agreement that the attorney to see if after the final accounting any un-spent retainer can/will be refunded.

4.  Check the agreement on what is chargeable... .  calls, postage, answering email... .  etc.  and what the minimum charge is... .  (.25 Hour?) which means if you call your attorney and talk for five minutes, which means they will charge you for 15 minutes of the hourly rate.

Hope this helps.

mrrlk