MC with a BPD is an uphill climb

[yeeter]

Recenly I have some significant issues to talk with my uNPD/uBPD wife about.  And I was trying to think of ways to approach it that wouldn't trigger her.  One idea was to try and bring in a third party counselor to help with communication (it is very rare that we can discuss something in a way that the other person feels listend to/heard).

But given we have tried 8/9 MC's and all have failed, or made things worse even, I realized it won't work.

A lot of people here have tried and are trying to find MC.  Often it doesnt work (but I certainly advise trying!), so I as thinking about 'why' it doesn't work, and it seems the underlying premise is flawed:

A traditional MC would try to get you each to calm down, assess some of the things that you felt were missing and needed, communicate to your partner and request some of these.  If the other person is loving and considerate, they will make an attempt to do some of these.  That attempt and effort is recognized and helps fill some of the missing needs.  So net improvement, and repeat.

But with a person with BPD, the amount of missing needs is infinite.  No matter how much you would give and put into filling the needs, there it will never be enough.  So the person will always feel that it's lacking.  And these needs are REAL to them.  It's emotional, not reasonable, and infinite.  

So when the traditional MC finally figures out how imbalanced it is, they might try to define limits.  In effect this is like drawing the boundaries for you on whats reasonable or fair.  But it doesn't work, because the underlying emotional needs are still not being filled for the BPD.  So at that point it becomes more 1:1 T with the BPD person to address the neediness, not couples MC.  And the BPD might not like that or be willing to work on it.

Hence the approach of grounding yourself and establishing your own boundaries.  Accepting that it won't be 'fair' (it can't because one person have much much greater neediness than the other).  :)etach, and find other ways to get some of your emotional needs filled.

Ok... .  Late night rambling because I'm traveling and on a different time zone.  But his topic comes up a lot, with mixed (and somewhat limited) success, so was tring to connect some of the pieces.

And I am no closer at all to figuring out how to approach my wife, will make a separate post for this.

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[zaqsert]

Great points, Yeeter.

While my experience with MC has been very frustrating, two reasonably good things have come from it, although the end result is still pretty much mixed.

Our T tried to teach me some of the lessons for not making things worse, such as validation and not JADEing.  But although I started to learn them, I did not use them consistently because I did not think I had to.  After all, I did not have to stick to them practically 100% of the time with almost anyyone else I've known.  Then I learned about BPD, and that's when it finally sank in that I need to be really consistent about using the tools.

Many of our sessions ended up becoming 1:1 T for my uBPDw, while I sat there quietly.  Since she hasn't followed through with any of her own T, I figured this was a decent alternative that just cost me an extra hour of my time.  And periodically, although very carefully, I could bring in a dose of reality to the stories that she would tell.  But on the other hand, while the T sessions would sometimes help her in the near term, a short while after the session (anywhere from a day to a week) a whole new issue would suddenly materialize.  So it feels like a game of Whack-a-Mole.

[waverider]

I know what you mean. MC negotiations are about achieving a balance and meeting each others needs. Applying logic and agreeing consistent behavior, neither of which are properties of BPD

A pwBPDs issues are but shadows that indicate the existence of need, but the need itself is not tangible, so it cant be fulfilled. It is the need for neediness if you like, the issues are just convenient vehicles to express those needs. To satisfy a specific issues need is to invalidate its purpose as an expression for neediness, so it is re presented in a different need.

You are shooting at shadows trying to fight the neediness.

Boundaries and acceptance of endless unfulfilled neediness is the only way to cope with this.

Back to the black hole analogy, you cant fill it no matter how you try as neediness is the very definition of its existence.

Accept its existence and put up those boundaries so you dont fall in.

[waverider]

But although I started to learn them, I did not use them consistently because I did not think I had to.  After all, I did not have to stick to them practically 100% of the time with almost anyyone else I've known.  Then I learned about BPD, and that's when it finally sank in that I need to be really consistent about using the tools.

This is something I am coming to disagree with, I used to think this way. I am with my partner close to 24/7 so 100% of the time is a very big ask and setting the bar that high is virtually guaranteeing I will fall short and hence feel at fault, or not up to scratch.

Now I have come to accept that we are here, we are learning, and that already puts us ahead of most folks who have to deal with this. So all we have to do is our best, be that 50% or 80% of the time. We are allowed to be off duty sometimes and not do the "correct" thing, and not feel like we are falling short. Luckily when we do "stuff up" whether due to being caught off guard, or just not in the mood for trying to be perfect, we may experience set backs, but we have the tools and knowledge to make up ground again.

Trying to do right 100% of the time can bring on the martyr feeling, and with that comes resentment and that is a relationship killer

[bruceli]

But given we have tried 8/9 MC's and all have failed, or made things worse even, I realized it won't work.

I was also frustrated and felt this way for years until I really took a step back and looked at it logically... .  

First off... .  the MC or the therapy did/nt fail... .  we did.  Working with a PWBPD is challenging, but they need to take responsibility to want to change/get better.  A big first step albeit a hard one for them.

Second... .  did the MC really make it worse or did they just allow you all to see the white elephant in the room.  They brought the issues to the forefront for you all to work on and the $%^& hit the fan would be my guess... .  Happened to me too... .  Again had to take responsibility for that too.

[Wrongturn1]

I agree with Bruceli on this one... .  I commend you for your persistence in trying 8/9 different MC's.  At some point, I think it has to be recognized that the MC's are not the problem, it's the person with BPD who is not willing to take the steps needed to make things better.

Also, Yeeter, you say "I was trying to think of ways to approach it that wouldn't trigger her."  Are you walking on eggshells?  Is there a healthier approach you could take here?

[edited b/c I initially clicked "post" before I was finished]

[zaqsert]

This is something I am coming to disagree with, I used to think this way. I am with my partner close to 24/7 so 100% of the time is a very big ask and setting the bar that high is virtually guaranteeing I will fall short and hence feel at fault, or not up to scratch.

Now I have come to accept that we are here, we are learning, and that already puts us ahead of most folks who have to deal with this. So all we have to do is our best, be that 50% or 80% of the time. We are allowed to be off duty sometimes and not do the "correct" thing, and not feel like we are falling short. Luckily when we do "stuff up" whether due to being caught off guard, or just not in the mood for trying to be perfect, we may experience set backs, but we have the tools and knowledge to make up ground again.

Trying to do right 100% of the time can bring on the martyr feeling, and with that comes resentment and that is a relationship killer

Waverider, very good points.  Well taken.  Thanks.  Even in getting back to being myself again, I can't expect to do it anywhere close to 100% of the time.  And I certainly need to move away from any martyrdom.

[HardDaysNight]

I can echo the comments about MC.  For me MC did help, at least me if not the relationship.  It put a lot of behaviors on the table, my wife did not deny anything (initially) as she did not think there was anything unusual about what she did or was looking for.

I have to say our MC was very fair, he woke me up to my unproductive behaviors too.

It didn't, however, stop or change the BPD/NPD behavior, just made me realize I was not crazy and that such behaviors are not good for a relationshp.

[waverider]

There are many things in this journey that on the face of it seem like negative things to do and make things worse, but often these things are essential as they bring underlying problems to light.

Sometimes you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelette

[Grey Kitty]

Recenly I have some significant issues to talk with my uNPD/uBPD wife about.  And I was trying to think of ways to approach it that wouldn't trigger her.  One idea was to try and bring in a third party counselor to help with communication (it is very rare that we can discuss something in a way that the other person feels listend to/heard).

Perhaps I was just lucky in that my wife had a fairly mild case of BPD... .  and simultaneously was in a state of "hitting bottom" emotionally and was ready to work on something... .  so your mileage may vary... .  

We went to a T that specialized in Imago therapy, and she taught us this mirroring exercise, which is pretty much a form of structured validation--one party says stuff, and the other repeats it back, with constant feedback to make sure that you got it all correct and to invite more discussion to find all of the feelings/issue.  Then (usually) the same topic is mirrored in the other direction next.

We got two things out of this tool.

• I thought I understood my wife's issues pretty well already (who me, codependent? A little, perhaps?), but when I mirrored her, she actually believed that I understood them. (She was validated)



• When she mirrored me, she was forced to set aside her feelings and listen to mine. (I had some successful communications, plus I was validated)

After the T "taught" us and made sure we were doing it right... .  we were later able to do independently.

[waverider]

Recenly I have some significant issues to talk with my uNPD/uBPD wife about.  And I was trying to think of ways to approach it that wouldn't trigger her.  One idea was to try and bring in a third party counselor to help with communication (it is very rare that we can discuss something in a way that the other person feels listend to/heard).

Perhaps I was just lucky in that my wife had a fairly mild case of BPD... .  and simultaneously was in a state of "hitting bottom" emotionally and was ready to work on something... .  so your mileage may vary... .  

We went to a T that specialized in Imago therapy, and she taught us this mirroring exercise, which is pretty much a form of structured validation--one party says stuff, and the other repeats it back, with constant feedback to make sure that you got it all correct and to invite more discussion to find all of the feelings/issue.  Then (usually) the same topic is mirrored in the other direction next.

We got two things out of this tool.

• I thought I understood my wife's issues pretty well already (who me, codependent? A little, perhaps?), but when I mirrored her, she actually believed that I understood them. (She was validated)



• When she mirrored me, she was forced to set aside her feelings and listen to mine. (I had some successful communications, plus I was validated)

After the T "taught" us and made sure we were doing it right... .  we were later able to do independently.

I went through this as part of a personal development course years ago, nothing to do with BPD or relationship issues. But the thing it taught was to listen, precis and reflect back without offering opinions or fixing someone elses concerns. Addresses the tendency we have to to be more interested in getting your point heard without taking in what is being said.

It taught me my failings, which I am sure MC can do if you are paying attention to the thought process rather than concentrating on winning the T over to your own grievances. It is not individual issues that are the problem, it is the faulty thought processes and inability to interact appropriately that are the issue.

[lizzie458]

I am headed to a session today with H's T (she was first my indiv T, then our MC (plus she saw us individually as well because nothing was getting done in couples' sessions), now has become mainly his T) and we'll see how productive it is.  I stopped going to couples' sessions a few months ago because the T and I realized that the BPD was throwing everything off and I didn't really need to be there for his sessions unless I wanted to be.  :)ue to H's disorder, true couples sessions are really only productive if I get something out of it.

I had decided I wasn't going to go today because she says the same thing every time and H agrees in session on practical strategies to help our communication (among other things), then everything goes out the window once we leave the office.  After talking with her though, she mentioned he wanted to process some stuff from our last big fight and that changed my outlook on today's session.

I suppose all of this is to say (or rather, agree) that MC with my dBPDh really is like an individual session for him where I am the one who might get something out of it.  It's kind of backwards - you'd think that the person IN COUNSELING is the one "getting stuff" out of it... .  but after several years with this T and one of her colleagues (both of whom are very good at what they do, however neither is a BPD specialist) I don't think he's really gotten much at all - I think the BPD has kept H imprisoned in the victim mentality and it has also duped him into thinking that he's doing something by going to the T and complaining about his problems.  I used to think he had a hand in the smoke and mirrors, but now I think he really does think he’s trying as hard as he can. It can’t be easy for him, because even just complaining to the T is not fun for him; I see him reliving the intense emotions of his past upsets whenever I go with him.  I used to resent him for not facing the real issues and indulging in self-pity…but now I think he doesn’t have the capacity to honestly face the black hole of neediness in himself, it’s just too much.  He actually does admit his needs are much greater than others and that that is a main source of frustration in his life, but he just can’t make the leap to accepting it and working through it.  Seems to be his paralyzing fear of failure which keeps him stuck (doesn’t want to admit something CAN be done about it, because then he has no excuse to not work through it, and he thinks “working through it” means becoming perfect), but who really knows?

I may or may not gain some valuable insights into him and our marriage today – I will do my best to not react and to listen to him.  That’s another reason why MC stalled out for us – it’s tough to stay out of JADE when you’re being attacked!  But it is necessary, if I want to make progress.

How's that for rambling?  And I'm not even traveling outside my time zone

[yeeter]

Greats insights from all.

I did get various things out of attempting MC.  Even the screening process in electing a T was educational.  And the concept of making a genuine effort was useful to me, as was seeing specific behaviors in real time.

For a while it was a way to get her some T indirectly.  But the NPD elements simply made it too high a hurdle and MC was very triggering.  So it reached a point where I had gotten what could be gotten from it and time to move on and manage it directly.

Also, Yeeter, you say "I was trying to think of ways to approach it that wouldn't trigger her."  Are you walking on eggshells?  Is there a healthier approach you could take here?

Yes.  And in some ways, I will be walking on eggshells as long as I remain in the relationship.  Just meaning that knowing there is going to be a trigger with some things, I approach it carefully.  The difference is where one time I might have just avoided or kept it to myself, I now deliberately speak my truth and let the fallout happen.  I have a responsibility to state my own needs, which am owning (she may or may not give these any consideration)

On some things though, I know there will be disagreement. And emotional triggering.   And No compromise. And that she will draw a line and end the relationship over it (it's not a fair and reasonable dynamic)  So unless it's also a relationship deal breaker from me, there is no real gain in bringing it up.  This is just part of acceptance of the reality to stay.  (and ok, it doesn't make for a great relationship but that's not what I am staying for)

[Wrongturn1]

Yes.  And in some ways, I will be walking on eggshells as long as I remain in the relationship.  Just meaning that knowing there is going to be a trigger with some things, I approach it carefully.  

Understood (and I hope I wasn't busting your chops too much on this); sounds like you are being realistic and picking your triggering conversations carefully and focusing on deal-breaker items, which is a wise course of action for a non who is staying.  It's a tricky balancing act between avoiding unnecessary triggers and walking on eggshells, and you clearly understand that.

Would be interested to hear which significant issues you plan to discuss with your W and which communication strategies you plan to use.  Cheers.

[briefcase]

On some things though, I know there will be disagreement. And emotional triggering.   And No compromise. And that she will draw a line and end the relationship over it (it's not a fair and reasonable dynamic)  So unless it's also a relationship deal breaker from me, there is no real gain in bringing it up.  This is just part of acceptance of the reality to stay.  (and ok, it doesn't make for a great relationship but that's not what I am staying for)

Will she really end the relationship? Or just react badly and say she will end it?  I ask because I used to think my wife was pretty much always on the cusp of leaving me, but in hindsight I don't think she was ever serious about leaving.  She threatened it all the time, packed bags several times, and once even told the kids to tell me goodbye because they were leaving - but she never left. 

For many years my fear of her (and the kids) leaving kept me tiptoeing around on eggshells.  But, in the last few years, I have crossed some of her "red lines" which struck me as unreasonable - and she never left.  When she threatend to go I started to say OK.  When she threatened to take the kids, I told her I would fight for the kids.  She pretty much no longer threatens divorce anymore.

My therapist helped me see that I was being maniuplated by this threat.  My T told me, with almost startling certainty, that my wife would almost certainly never leave me, and that if the marriage ended it would be because I made the decision, not her.  It was a very empowering, and slightly reckless, message. 

I know from reading here that many people with BPD can, and do, end relationships, but in my case my wife was bluffing and manipulating me.  Once the bluff was called, she quit playing it. 

I trust your judgment Yeeter, you know your wife better than anyone.  Its smart to pick your battles, but I want to make sure you are confident that you truly know what your wife's deal breakers really are, as opposed to what she says they are. 

Let us know what you do.  As always, we're pulling for you.      

   

[yeeter]

Great dialog all, thank you.

The issue at hand is my wife's parents.  She is highly attached and never really separated from her mother.  Her father has alzeheimers and her mother is starting to slide herself, so they are at a point where they cannot live on their own, which is several states away.

So they are visiting and one of the activities they are planning is to look at assisted living facilities near by.

The concept isn't terrible.  But my wife is a different person when around her parents.  Her emotions are jacked up to the max and eggshells are everywhere at every single moment.  Even preparing for the visit she had us all (especially the kids) ping all kinds of cleaning and organizing to prepare.  Nothing wrong with kids cleaning their room, but this well beyond this, and mostly my wife's responsibilities and she was on edge and needing to suck everyone into it for emotional support.

On Sunday before they were due to arrive we cancelled all soccer and other activities because she felt behind on it all and didn't want the kids to leave until it was done.  Even after I spent a couple hours helping the kids in their rooms, and other task lists.  At the last minute she decided my daughters could go but my son needed to stay.

Actually, it was my S8 who chose to stay and help because he stated to me that 'he would stay and help so mom wouldn't be so upset'

I cut the losses and took the girls to soccer and left him.  But you can see the precedence.

Just one example of what it's like with her parents around.

So net net, I don't want them to move closer.  There are other options and it would affect my life in a significantly negative way.  But the setup is kinda like forcing a choice... .  Me or them.  I don't like it as this type a choice.  And it feels like I will have lost all of the progress we have made over the last couple years.  And I've been processing what my action will be if they do it anyway, and am considering separating if they follow through.  (which will make me look like a jerk).  And Which conflicts with my belief that the kids are better off with me in their lives on a daily basis, and doubly so if my wife is also caring for her failing parents.

The other option is them moving close another sibling that is more in position to handle it all.

Another consideration might be my job loss and moving, and I may try initiating that just to avoid the scenario.

Tricky one.  Been traveling so haven't had a chance to make a proper post.  But will get to see a close friend tomorrow and talk it all through, so this outside perspective will help.  And I welcome any insights from the group here.

I did tell her before I left that'i hope before such a decision were made we would at least talk about it'.  So I'm sure she knows I'm not thrilled with the idea, but I'm doubt she understands to what degree.

SET and DEARMAN will be some of the tools, but there just isn't any way to do it that is going to come out smoothly.

[briefcase]

Nope, that will be a rough conversation no matter what tools you use.  My wife reacts the same way around her family as you described here.

But, in my experience there is a difference between occassional visits, and living down the road from the in-laws.  Some of my worst times were visiting my inlaws when they lived 1100 miles away from us.  My wife got much worse around her "remote" family members.  Many ruined holidays . . . you get it. 

In 2007, my mother and father-in-law moved from 1100 miles away to 2 miles away when my father-in-law's health began to seriously fail.  My in-laws even lived in our house for about 5 months while their new home was being built up the street (good times!   ).  I had all the same worries you express here leading up to their move.

In my case, a new baseline "normal" established itself after my inlaws were in their new place.  All the peaks of anxiety and manic preparations I saw before and during visits with the inlaws faded away as they became just another daily routine.

Before they moved here, my wife was anxious and edgy because they were so far away and she felt powerless to help them.  After they moved here, she felt anxious and edgy because she felt the weight of some responsibility.  But, at least she was fdoing something and occupying her time.  In my case, the net effect was basically a wash and maybe a little positive.  All the "acute" problems associated with occassional visits pretty much faded away (not that there weren't issues, there were). 

My wife's brother moved here a few years later and the same thing happened.  She still has two siblings who live far away, and she still struggles when they come to town or we go see them - but that's really not true for the inlaws who live here.  Everything just sort of adjusted. 

At least that was my experience.  Take it for what its worth.  I feel for you this is a big issue for you and your wife. 

 

[Grey Kitty]

The issue at hand is my wife's parents.  She is highly attached and never really separated from her mother.  Her father has alzeheimers and her mother is starting to slide herself, so they are at a point where they cannot live on their own, which is several states away.

I'm not sure I fully understand how she feels about it. (I'm assuming that she isn't very self-aware in this regard)

Does she recognize that her parents increase her stress level and (apparently) cause problems for her?

Is she happy, fearful, or confused about the idea of them moving nearby?

And a question for you:

Other than the effects on your wife, do you have issues with her parents?

GK

[yeeter]

Good questions.

Self awareness factor is pretty minimal.

Do I have issues with her parents... .  Yes and no.  They are fine to be around for short periods of time.  But highly religious, self righteous, and somewhat lacking development themselves.  So a lot of the characteristics of my wife were developed (or not developed) due to her mothers own issues and lack of development.  

Then items like the narcissism and superiority are highly magnified, and fed, by her mother.  As far as interaction, in many ways I can sit and have an open and honest conversation with my MIL easier than I can my wife.

Then some more tactical aspects.  For example spanking the kids.  Once when  the inlaws were visiting the kids were acting up so my wife decided to spank them.  She told me she consulted with her mother and it was what her mother recommended.  This was upsetting to me because the decision to spank our children in my mind, was not one for my wife and her mother to make, but fo my wife and me to make.

Some major differences in value systems that in some ways I don't want my children around the inlaws too much (or some of the very things that are issues for my wife will become the case for my children).  Even hinting at any criticism of her parents is highly, highly triggering so not something that can be discussed rationally

A combination of factors.  Yes I have some differences with her parents.  And at the same time issues with how being around them make wife's symptoms so much worse.

BC's experience is also valid.  I could see certain anxiety and lack of control aspects improving by having them closer and more routine.  At the heart of it though, I think the overall effect would be much worse.

Also is pure scheduling.  3 small children are already quite demanding.  Adding two elderly patients that need a lot of care isn't going to reduce the stress factor for any of us.

I was trying to encourage them to move closer to another sibling, and had even reached out for this.  But not sure if my wife will support it (her first preference is to have them close to her). When we were in the middle of divorce her plan was to take the kids and move in with her parents, and I was going to need a court order to keep them in the state.  I can still see that happening if a job loss or separation.

[Grey Kitty]

That's tough situation. The short version of it sounds like:

Your wife wants her parents to move nearby.

You don't want them to do so.

While there is some influence... .  ultimately, neither you nor she gets to make the choice.

I can see how SET or DEARMAN could help some... .  but if she has a fundamentally different world view than you do on this issue, I doubt you will persuade her of much.

... .  well, you could persuade her of your willingness to leave, but that isn't your ideal outcome.

 Hoping for good outcomes for you here, yeeter!

[yeeter]

It's kinda a lose lose. 

And typical of our relationship as a whole.  One MC commented that, by definition what causes one of us comfort, causes the other stress and anxiety. Little common ground

Was making some progress with mitigation.  Fear of losing it.

We will see... .  

[iluminati]

I won't belabor the point about MC and BPD in general, because it's been stated so many times.  That said, based on what you said, it seems that your wife listens to her parents more than you.  That's a huge red line to cross.  Either your wife is married to you, or she's married to your inlaws.  Take of that what you will and enforce boundaries as you see fit.

[NewWays]

Hester... .  

I was where you are at right now... .  several years ago and now that my DBPDW and I are in divorce proceedings if you asked me what would be one of the top ten things I would do differently or advise?

My answer would be that starting with couples MC I believe is not the 1st place to start like we did because it assumes that you both have areas that you both want to work on to help the relationship and both of you are committed to learning of those areas and both want to make your marriage better by working together to improve.

In our case I was the Lone Ranger at our couples sessions.

My current therapist has expertise in BPD and points out to me that until via therapy until there is an understanding of what possible f of o issues helped contribute to cause the BPD symptoms... .  that starting with couples therapy is like taking an expantent mother who is about to give birth to the hospitals burn unit for her treatment!

Everything you do I learned has to provide for the greatest chance for success.

Just my 2 cents worth.

mrrlk