Radical acceptance, boundaries, clarity

[byasliver]

So after lots of discussion today (as is typical with a pwBPD, it took lots of tolerance & patience on my part), we got to a point where I finally understood his feelings and position. He feels like he wasn't fully ready to accept my daughters and me when he asked me to marry him, that he expected something different from us and now expects us to (after 8 years of trying but it never being enough) at least make an effort to meet his expectations. He could acknowledge that I did not misrepresent myself or the kids but that he didn't go into our marriage with a more reasonable expectation of us. He could also acknowledge that because he has blatantly broken promises he made to me, he did not live up to clear, spoken, agreed upon expectations I had of him. His answer to what I should expect of him for that was that he would not repeat past mistakes - not with me or with my daughters.

For clarity: He expects us to continue to put forth positive effort to meet expectations he claimed not to have from the beginning but has now decided he does have and may not be able to change. We are only to expect him to not repeat negative efforts for expectations we were clear about from the beginning. Positive effort expected from us along with not repeating past "mistakes" (not living up to his expectations)-from him we aren't to expect any positive effort, only that he not repeat past mistakes. Yes, I stated this to him numerous times and he repeatedly agreed that it was how he felt.

I also need to make it clear that he told me again that he is not 100% sure he loves me any longer (he cares but isn't sure he loves me) and that he regrets marrying me. Those two things were said more than once, not in anger, and I repeated them for clarity and he agreed.

He said he wants to keep trying and was telling me he thought we should try to talk again in a day or so. I was validating but told him that I could not give him an answer at that time and would need some time to think. He was resistant to that at first but then he realized he was drawing us back into an argument and stopped himself (THAT was progress that I do recognize). At that point he just said, "ok, let's leave it at that." I was going to but once I got a moment to myself to think clearly, I realized the full weight of what he said and realized I have to create a boundary for myself about this. He was leaving for a kayaking trip with fellow vets for tonight so I just asked to be able to say one thing, without comment from him, before he left and just requested that he think on it while he was gone. He agreed and here is what I told him, "I do not know any longer if I can keep trying so hard for a 'maybe'. I need to seriously consider what all this means for ME because I was really struggling to rebuild my trust in him with the belief that he still loves me but with that in doubt, I need to take some time to reflect on how I feel about that." That is my boundary although maybe not said so clearly in that moment: he made it clear today that things are longer "equal" (I already knew that but thought he really believed it was) and that he is aware of that. I will not give 100% to a "maybe" especially when I have BEEN giving 100% while he was already choosing to stop loving me and to regret the choice to be with me. Simply put, I'm not giving 100% to someone who is closer to giving only 60%.

About an hour later he texted me "Love you." I told him to please not say that to me right now. He responded that he was only trying to reach out and express some affection. I replied that I appreciated the thought/effort but that I'd rather not have the mixed messages. He responded simply, "Ok."

So that brings us to now. I will be spending this evening working on strengthening my mind/heart to uphold this boundary. I will remain committed if the commitment is equal but by his own admission, it is not. Therefore, we need to work on some drastic changes or we separate. I'm still willing to approach a separation as a "therapeutic separation" but I do need physical distance.

It's going to be a difficult few days.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[patientandclear]

You rock, ByaSliver. What great clarity about your own values.

Reading that whole thought process gave me some strength in analyzing my own situation. I said, when I cautiously reapproached a friendship with my ex, against the advice of many friends and some here on the Leaving board, that I'd do it as long as it was mutual, reciprocal & respectful. It stopped being mutual & reciprocal for whatever reason, & I've seriously been considering bending over backwards myself to compensate for his departure & his withdrawal.  I need to pay attention to my own very clear rules for re-engagement when I started this up again. I seem to have lost myself in wishful thinking that we built something more enduring & stable than it appears we did.

Strength to you BAS.

[byasliver]

Whoa, patientandclear, what I expressed above that I should do and intend to do are so much easier said than done. If I was stronger, when he first brought up his lack of love and regret in marrying me today, I would have ended the conversation right there and said I would not subject myself to more. I didn't and I know full well that when we do talk again, standing my ground will be EXTREMELY difficult. Today he was relatively calm but nearly always becomes angry/dysregulated if I bring up separation in any form. HE can bring it up but never me. But I simply cannot take the emotional torture he puts me through. Not for a "maybe".

HE brought up today that he was learning in therapy that we can only control our own emotions and not those of others. He made the choice to stop loving me and is choosing to regret marrying me. When he brought up the regret he was saying that I expressed regret to him about things in my past in our earlier days. I was able (somehow) to prove that to be completely incorrect (JADEing, I know, but it still somehow worked) One of the things I have always told him was that I learned early on to NOT regret my past because it would eat away at me. Also that I am too thankful for so many things in my life and feel that every choice (good or bad) led me to the next one. I've told him from early on that the song "Bless the Broken Road" made me think of him (it was even his ringtone on my phone for a few years) BECAUSE I do not regret things. That completely shut down his argument but he still stood by his feelings of regret.

That is fine - that is his choice. I can and will accept that. What I won't accept is someone expecting more of me than they are willing to give. He has not only proven that he expects more than he is willing to give but also admitted that today. Yes, he admitted that he could see the "unfairness" of that and is willing to work on it. Good. Great.

However, he will have to accept MY choices. And I choose not to continue to give to someone not willing to give equally in return. So he can be willing to accept less, leave, or make the choice to give more and/or expect less.

NOT EASY to do. Easy to say/write. Harder to implement. I am grateful he will be gone tonight so I can work on strengthening myself.

[cal644]

Great write-up.  I needed that today as the last couple days I've been leaning of trying to work out things with my stbexw.  It's funny how she has told me the same things - not in love with me / regrets marrying me after 19 years together.  I too need to stick to my boundaries of what I will and will not accept.  Why should I continue to give 150% when that is not enough and I only receive 50% in return.  I really really needed this today as it helped me to remember what I would be going back to - the last two days I have seen the love/hate mixed messages - and in the end it always becomes my fault that she cheated.  Thanks!

[byasliver]

cal644, glad I could help. Still, it's so much easier to write than to do. I STILL want our marriage to work but I am realizing just how important it is to take care of myself - especially when he is unwilling/unable to "help" take care of me.

I forgot to include my reason for putting "Radical acceptance" in the title: radical acceptance is everything we are willing/able to look past, accept, forgive and our boundaries are the limits to that: what we are NOT willing/able to look past, accept, forgive.

Anyway, I do have a question about JADEing. I know that when I implement this boundary with my uBPDh, he will JADE. How do I respond to that without resorting to JADEing myself and/or without invalidating him? Or should I just stand my ground. Period.

[morningagain]

byasliver,

"And I choose not to continue to give to someone not willing to give equally in return."

Ohhhhh darlin, everything I read here from the articles and workshops and advice from the longstanding members and moderators, etc., is clear:  someone with BPD cannot give equally in return in an intimate relationship.  that it is up to us to choose to be "emotional caretakers"... .  or not, and to exit the relationship.  this is also so terribly confirmed in my relationship with my separated dBPDw.

"So he can be willing to accept less, leave, or make the choice to give more and/or expect less."

I would anticipate a high likelihood that IF he chooses to agree to your requirement, he will mean it - in the moment.  However, he will not be capable of delivering - certainly not long term, and perhaps not long at all.

This is the heart breaking harsh reality for me, and for my wife.  My wife can certainly heal, but she must choose to and follow through which is a very long and difficult and painful process.  I am having a terrible time trying to heal/mature myself (i certainly have some form of the ill-defined co-dependency malady)

radical acceptance of this has been a beginning for me, and actually gives me a lot more peace and self control than I have had in years.  still a long and hard - and broken - road, though.

[byasliver]

The very same thoughts went through my head right after I posted that last post, jason519. Where this boundary comes into play for me now is that before, he acted like and seemed to believe that the give & take was equal. THAT I could accept as a "disability". However, today he made it clear that he is aware of the unbalance in the give & take and it is acceptable and even preferable to him. Actually, that unbalance is EXPECTED by him. THAT is what I am unwilling to radically accept. Being unfair to someone out of misunderstanding (chosen or not) is much more acceptable than knowing you are treating someone unfairly and expecting that to be the status quo.

Maybe he IS BPD and just high functioning to a point that he really believes the give & take should be unbalanced in his favor. Up until today, I fully believed he thought he was giving/taking equally. He admitted today, though, that isn't the case and he fully expects to get more than he will give. I don't care what label you put on that thought  process, it is simply more than I can accept.

[byasliver]

Found my answer to the whole question of how to respond if/when he starts JADEing: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=160566.0. That is when DEARMAN will come in. Now, I just have to take some time in the next day or so and rehearse the scenarios in my head so I can stick to the format and my objectives.

For now, I am EXHAUSTED! I was hit with a bout of insomnia last night (been quite awhile without that but for some reason, it reared it's ugly head last night) and then the difficult emotions of today have wiped me out.

Btw, someone correct me if I'm wrong about using DEARMAN. I'm so tired I'm really not sure if that makes sense or not!

[morningagain]

Found my answer to the whole question of how to respond if/when he starts JADEing: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=160566.0. That is when DEARMAN will come in. Now, I just have to take some time in the next day or so and rehearse the scenarios in my head so I can stick to the format and my objectives.

For now, I am EXHAUSTED! I was hit with a bout of insomnia last night (been quite awhile without that but for some reason, it reared it's ugly head last night) and then the difficult emotions of today have wiped me out.

Btw, someone correct me if I'm wrong about using DEARMAN. I'm so tired I'm really not sure if that makes sense or not!

Hi again byasliver 

I just tried to compose a letter using dearman to my wife.

ugh.

as the link describes, it is used to get something from - in our case - our SO

where i got stuck is everywhere - a conflict of values, or a lack of sufficient trust, or my belief it is something she will not give no matter what i do.  i have nothing to offer as an alternative.  maybe it is a conflict of values.

so i am disheartened, and i gave up the effort.  no sense in setting myself up for failure.  i am rambling, but what i am trying to convey is that you make sure that if you ask for something, make sure it is within the scope of reality that he is able to give it.

i would suggest that after a good nights sleep, you try it.  you may find success.

one of the most difficult challenges i face in communication with her, is the M in DEARMAN:

   Mindfully keep your focus on your objectives. Maintain your position. Don’t be distracted.

i am woeful at this.  i cannot even do so in a letter.  i keep imagining her objections as if she is right here.  and her off-topic responses/distractions.  i spin myself in circles.

sigh.   glad i could help - rofl

[byasliver]

  jason, I really struggled (and still do at times) with getting sucked into my uBPDH's dysregulation. Trying to talk and everything is met with "but you... .  " Now, I try to ignore the words and just "hear" what feeling he is having. Usually he is JADEing because he feels attacked. pwBPD can't seem to take anything we say as being either positive or negative. So then I have two choices: ignore what he says and steer the conversation back to the original point, or validate his feelings then steer the conversation back to the original point. The second choice usually works best but I am only human and can only take so many insults before I'm worn down and just do my best to get the conversation back to the original topic or abandon the whole thing until another time. The same often applies when I am just thinking through various conversation scenarios.

Part of the whole idea of radical acceptance and boundaries is understanding that pwBPD may have differing values but we choose to either accept them or put boundaries in place to protect ourselves and our own values. It isn't about getting them to agree with us.

As for using DEARMAN when I next speak with my uBPDh, it will take a lot of effort on my part but things simply cannot go on as they have been. I'm not willing to compromise my own values any longer with things as they are. I need to convey that to him clearly but in a non-judgemental way. This is not an ultimatum I'm giving him but boundaries I'm erecting for myself. It is his choice to live within those boundaries or walk away. Where will the alternative or compromise come in? I have no frickin idea! He wants us to decide together on some "rules" for future discussions and has mentioned several times that he would be willing for me to give him a "deadline" for showing progress. Maybe that's where I'll start. Maybe the compromise will be giving him a deadline instead of expecting him to talk to me about his choices/feelings right away. I still, honestly, have no idea. Way too tired to think this through now... .  only still awake because it seems I'm too tired to sleep... .  insomnia is a b*tch!

[arabella]

I'm doing the exhausted, heading to bed thing myself, so this isn't going to be much of a reply (apologies!) but... .  I saw your exchange re using DEARMAN and thought that I'd just suggest using SET or PUVAS instead. I'm not sure that the situations you're describing (byasliver and jason) are really negotiable or that you are asking for anything. You are simply telling your spouses what they need to know. Maybe give those a shot? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0

byasliver - I feel for you.  That's one rough conversation (rather horrible in fact). I've had the "I don't love you anymore" conversations. I find it all really nauseating (as in, I feel physically ill hearing it). The admitting to an unfair distribution of effort is also familiar. Have to say that neither of those statements turned out to mean quite what I thought in the long run. Also, I know you told your H a lot during the conversation and were upset that he didn't change his mind or reconsider (e.g. your thoughts re regrets) - please bear in mind that sometimes those 'seeds' take at least a few days, often more than a week, to actually sprout in the pwBPD's brain. With my H, I often get my ideas parroted back at me, as if they were brand new thoughts, later down the road. You may need to give this all a bit of time to see where his brain settles.  

[waverider]

It is very hard to stand your ground and principles, when you are surrounded by the ebb and flow of emotional tide, and the very sand you are trying to stand on is sifting away from under you all the time.

It is very hard to work out were you really stand, when they dont either, and consistency is about as predictable as the weather.

Your sense of self and where you are at needs to be independent of any foundations their actions can influence. Step out of the water onto solid ground so their tidal emotions happen in front of you rather than around and under you. The flotsam and jetsam that comes with it can then be more easily be identified and avoided.

This releases the pressure on them as you are not reacting to them, and not creating eddies in their otherwise confusing lives. Whether they love you or not is not then confused by how you perceive they do. Their communications to you are often out of line with their true feelings, and only muddy the water.

Ask yourself if they tell you they love you, do you believe them? Do they believe themselves? Do they really know what love is? Or is it just a current need?

Their use of language and expression of emotions is different to yours. Extract yourself from these sorts of debates, miscommunication is a core problem in BPD relationships, definitions and displays of emotions are often at cross purposes.

Observe overall general behavior, not promises, presumptions or assumptions these will lead you down the path of disillusionment. Pushing for confirmation or commitment will just provoke the reaction of the day, not yesterday nor tomorrow, so will resolve nothing. Leaving you non the wiser, to do it all over again tomorrow.

[byasliver]

arabella, thanks for the  . Oh, how I know all too well that what he said yesterday may change into something completely different today. Especially after spending time with the group he did last night (vets who will not hesitate to tell him like it is). At this point, his stance doesn't matter as much: I have to take care of me. I think you might be right about using PUVAS or SET instead. Much to think about today now that I've had some sleep - albeit, very little.

waverider, very wise words. I'm not quite sure how to explain what I'm really feeling on this. It's like I'm more giving the r/s a chance than him. I have a strong faith and, as much as I believe we are in control of ourselves, I also believe there is a bigger power at work behind it all. I am just not ready to completely give up on my marriage yet. However, I have to find firmer ground beneath my own feet, much like you said. That decision is made. Nothing will change about that. His choice is to join me or not. Believe me, I'm fully expecting any number of reactions on his part: extinction burst, rage, even a complete reversal to try to "get me back." I know he will most likely take this as an ultimatum no matter how carefully I speak to him but I cannot control his thoughts or feelings - only my own. If he truly believes that we should be giving more than we're getting, then this marriage is a sinking ship which I will not go down with. I've seen enough in his actions over the last several months to know that probably IS what he believes so no pretty (or even angry) words will convince me otherwise. It is not acceptable to me and I will not stay in such an unbalanced r/s nor will I subject my kids to that any longer. Especially if he is fully aware of the unfairness of the unbalance. THAT is the thing that gets me most. I kept trying to believe he didn't really "see it" but my instincts kept nagging at me that he did. I've experienced lots of various mental illnesses in my family/friends and I know that if they are aware of certain unreasonable behaviors then they are healthy enough to make a choice to work towards better behaviors. THAT is the cut off point: when they KNOW they aren't making wise choices and choose not to do anything about it. That is the point where you take a step back, throw up your hands and say, "ok, if you want to remain in your unhealthy mindset, that's your choice but I'm going to make better choices for me." No, you don't literally tell them they are unhealthy but you get the point. I'm going to do what I need to do to make my life healthier and more balanced. In a way, it's not about him anymore. It's about me and what I want and need. And I need more than "maybe I love you but I choose to not play fair" to remain in a committed r/s.

[123Phoebe]

In a way, it's not about him anymore. It's about me and what I want and need. And I need more than "maybe I love you but I choose to not play fair" to remain in a committed r/s.

We come here looking for answers to help our loved ones and end up helping ourselves make some really difficult choices, that end up being not quite so difficult.

Bravo, byasilver!  You've come a long way, baby   In a super short time

[byasliver]

Got into the mundane tasks of getting ready for the day and cleared my head a little. Here is the bottom line for me: He CHOSE to have different expectations than what we agreed upon for me and the kids from the beginning and has been ticked at us ever since for not meeting those expectations. However, he also CHOSE to not meet the expectations we had for him that we DID agree to. And, he has chosen to hold all of us (me and my daughters) responsible for those choices he made. I.e. it is our fault he didn't meet our expectations. NOT ANYMORE. I will not allow that for one more second. Period.

Now, how to put that to him? Not a clue. Sadly, part of me doesn't even want to put in the effort to make sure I say it in "just the right way." What I've been fighting for weeks is a nagging doubt that he is really "sick". I mean, obviously, his thinking is not completely healthy but is he completely unaware of that? No, I don't believe so anymore. If anything, he's using it as a crutch and letting us take on the responsibility of tip-toeing around him rather than him having to do the work on himself. Yeah, not happening anymore. I will do what is healthy and right for myself and my kids. It's up to him whether or not he chooses to make healthier decisions or not.

[byasliver]

Phoebe!   Thanks for the sweet words. Yes, I have come a very long way... .  and still have a long road ahead but it sure is getting easier... .  in some ways. 

[byasliver]

He just came home from his overnight trip... .  head hanging and asked in that fake, super-sweet way, ":)o you need anything?" Ooo, what a loaded question! Ha! But I just shook my head and said, "Nope." He sighed, went back to pouting and trudged to his room. Oh boy, I see lots of back-peddling from him today.

Funny, I used to wish for those moments because I thought THAT was real and the rage/irrational thoughts were fake. Oh, how different things look once we really open our eyes.

[waverider]

Hard to label one facet real and one fake, as they are both real extremes of the same disorder, and both transient. Just one is more destructive than the other

I have heard it said at times that when a pwBPD does go through substantial recovery the "shine" gets knocked off the good also, and the resultant stable middle ground personality appears dull in comparison.

[MockingbirdHL]

Funny, I used to wish for those moments because I thought THAT was real and the rage/irrational thoughts were fake. Oh, how different things look once we really open our eyes.

That's how I've been feeling lately, that the only emotions from him I really believe are real are the angry, suspicious, distrustful, and disappointed. When he's being calm, affectionate, open, communicative and loving I often find myself asking myself "Is this real?"

I never ask myself that when he's raging or dishing out the silent treatment. But I do tell myself, it's not HIM, it's the DISORDER.

But it is him isn't it?  He is the disorder. Right?

[waverider]

Funny, I used to wish for those moments because I thought THAT was real and the rage/irrational thoughts were fake. Oh, how different things look once we really open our eyes.

That's how I've been feeling lately, that the only emotions from him I really believe are real are the angry, suspicious, distrustful, and disappointed. When he's being calm, affectionate, open, communicative and loving I often find myself asking myself "Is this real?"

I never ask myself that when he's raging or dishing out the silent treatment. But I do tell myself, it's not HIM, it's the DISORDER.

But it is him isn't it?  He is the disorder. Right?

It is all him, the mood of the moment is who they are at the moment, and yes it is the disorder.