SET and DEARMAN help, please

[byasliver]

Ok, here's the barest of background to my situation: my uBPDh has recently admitted that he had expectations of me and my daughters when he married me that were above & beyond what I had agreed to. Even though it is more than I ever agreed to, he still feels we should make positive efforts to meet those needs. On the other hand, the expectations I had of him and that we both agreed on, he has failed to meet and he feels I should be willing to accept only that he will try not to repeat past mistakes but that he shouldn't be required to show positive efforts towards meeting those expectations now. Convoluted, I know but that's what he thinks.

So, I'm working on how to express my feelings to him using SET and DEARMAN but I'm a little stuck and would like some input. Here's what I have so far:

S = I want all of us, including you, to feel that our expectations are important.

E = You have expectations of us that were not met and that would make anyone upset.

T =

The "truth" is where I'm stuck. I don't know how to convey to him that I won't agree to meet expectations that I feel are unreasonable and that I never agreed to in the first place.

And then for DEARMAN to express my feelings about his not meeting my expectations and ask him to do more than just to try not to repeat past mistakes:

D = I had clear expectations of you that you agreed to but did not adhere to those expectations.

E = It meant so much to me when we talked about our expectations and I felt so close to you. When you broke those promises, it scared me and made me feel unimportant to you.

A = I need your help to rebuild the trust. I need you to demonstrate that my trust is important to you.

R = I will be able to be more demonstrative with my love for you and more eagerly receptive to hearing about and meeting your wants and needs.

M = The expectations I had in the beginning are still expected.

A = (I will refrain from certain words such as "please", "maybe" and will keep my voice calm but strong to show my confidence.)

N = I will work on forgiving the past and will try not to bring it up again.

I still have a couple of other issues I need to address with him (he says he doesn't love me anymore and regrets marrying me) but I'm starting with this first.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[arabella]

I'm not the greatest with these things, so hopefully someone else will come along shortly with more input but, for the 'truth', how about:

T = Now that I am aware of some of your expectations, I realize that I am not going to be able to meet all of them.

In your DEARMAN example, I might rephrase E to:

E = It meant so much to me when we talked about our expectations and I felt so close to you. When you broke those promises, it scared me and made me feel I felt like I was unimportant to you.

Just thinking it might be good to avoid saying that he made you feel a certain way.

For A - is it better to express a 'need'? I usually phrase this as a 'want'.

Looking forward to seeing what others have to offer!

[waverider]

With SET

S=simply listening to what he has to stay (giving your time)

E=enquiring further to try to understand why he feels the way he does.(showing you care about their view and value the right to have it)

In your examples you are setting the agenda. S & E is about giving time and attention to allow him to express his views and taking them seriously

The examples you use for S & E are really part of T assuming they are correct after you have been through  S & E. They are your conclusions as you see them from your perspective. Add to this possible options for how you may be able to go forward. Leave them as suggestions rather than demands.

The aim is to lead them to their own conclusions to avoid the instinctive push against perceived controlling demands.

As an aside keep boundaries out of it. They are for fall back when nothing else works.

SET and DEARMAN dont always completely work but they at least go a long way towards lessening issues.

[byasliver]

Good points, arabella! Thanks!

waverider, I gave him tons of time the other day to hear him out. I practiced lots of active listening skills to make sure I was hearing and understanding him correctly. What I want to do now is reaffirm that I understood him then but have to establish certain boundaries as a result. Make sense?

[waverider]

Good points, arabella! Thanks!

waverider, I gave him tons of time the other day to hear him out. I practiced lots of active listening skills to make sure I was hearing and understanding him correctly. What I want to do now is reaffirm that I understood him then but have to establish certain boundaries as a result. Make sense?

You could start off by recapping what you believe he was trying to say and the reasons for it.

Then keep it simple and say exactly what you just said, it all comes as part of the Truth. You will then also be stating a follow on boundary. But to make it a boundary you will need a real action you can take to achieve it.

Less said is best when giving boundaries.

[waverider]

I rarely use DEARMAN there's too many steps and I always mess it up in the moment... . Probably subconsciously include some of it into SET.

[byasliver]

waverider, do you ever sleep?  Thank you so much for all of your insight and advice. I woke this morning with the undeniable feeling that I no longer believe he really wants to try to work this out. He just wants me and my kids to confirm to what he wants. This is shown not just in his words but his actions as well. If I didn't have kids, that might be something I could consider but I'm losing the ability to make my kids the priority they should be. And this morning as I was reading emails and just thinking over things, I glimpsed an exacto knife I had on my desk and for just the briefest of moments my mind went to a dark place of self-harm. That scared the crap out of me! No, I'm not suicidal or anything like that but to have just that fleeting thought was far more than I am comfortable with. I need more right now than I'm getting in this r/s and something has to change NOW. uBPDh and I had tentatively agreed to talk tomorrow but I asked him if we could talk today instead and gave him some information on the SET model (being very careful to leave out any reference to BPD). This may very well be my last post in the Staying thread. After today, I will probably move to the Undecided thread. I've given 110% to this r/s and I feel like I'm just spinning my wheels and getting nowhere. It's time to stop worrying so much about what will work for US and start focusing on what will work for ME.

[waverider]

I do sleep, but when you are awake. I'm in Aus, thats the beauty of the site being international there's always someone awake.

The staying board is a good place to work through all the things you can do, so that if finally you get to the place where enough is enough, then any decisions to leave are made from a position of clarity. This will reduce future what ifs, and the destructiveness of endless recycling that is often a result.

As you have realized endless attempts at negotiations, support and empathy only get you so far, a spade is still a spade. You just have to make sure you know exactly what a spade is, and whether you need a spade in your life.

Only you can decide that, and you have probably learned a lot about yourself in the journey

[byasliver]

Well, he agreed to talk today and to try to use the SET model. I totally do not believe he will follow through.  Things have escalated to the point where validation does not work for him unless I just completely agree with whatever he says - just understanding his feelings is not enough for him. I really do not see a positive resolution to our problems with his current state. If he would just disengage until he gets more therapy, it would be different but he insists on having a say in what goes on with the kids and will not back down unless I agree with his line of thinking. Enforcing boundaries just leads to raging on his part or he insists we talk which leads to raging on his part. I want to try to talk things over with a qualified therapist present but he always has an excuse for why that can't happen right now. The other option is a therapeutic separation but he can't/won't agree to that if I'm the one who brings it up.

I am going to try to talk to him today but he will not like what I have to say. I know that no matter how nicely I try to put it, because I'm not just 100% agreeing with his viewpoint, he will take it as an attack and things will not go well. I cannot even tell you how much this hurts. I still love him so very much but I am only human. I can see that I did enable him in the past but now he wants to force me to enable him and that's just too much to ask. It has reached a point where I either comply with his irrational demands or lose him. The craziest part is that he can admit that he has control over his own feelings but then chooses not to. He can admit that he expected too much (and still does) but chooses not to change that in himself but instead, wants me and my kids to conform to those expectations - even though by his own admission they are unreasonable!

I made the mistake of not recording our conversation the other day. I really wish I had because I think if he could hear his own voice saying those things, it might carry more weight than my saying it to him. I won't make that mistake today. Our state allows for one person to record conversations without the other person's consent so I won't be breaking any law. But at a minimum, I will have the proof for my own self that I heard him correctly.

[byasliver]

How is that they know exactly what to say - how to say just enough to keep you hoping without really saying anything meaningful?

We did talk but basically, nothing changed about his feelings except that he tried to say them in a nicer way today. I did, however, realize that he stopped feeling love for me because he felt hurt by me or that I didn't live up to his expectations and he believes I have to feel the same because I've said he hurt me and didn't live up to my expectations. Isn't that absolutely classic BPD? He can't believe I can still love him even though he hurt me because he doesn't have that capability! I was able to get him to accept that his truth and my truth (about how/why we love someone) do not have to be the same and are most definitely NOT the same. So now I understand a little better why his feelings for me changed and why he doubts my love for him. Doesn't ease the pain or help me trust him more or even mean that HE understands... .  but at least I'm not as confused as I was.

I also got him to agree to back off of the kids some (have more reasonable expectations) and to try to be more observant of their positive accomplishments. I've heard that song & dance before, though. We shall see if he actually follows through.

He DID try very hard to use SET at first which blew me away! But he quickly fell into old habits of JADEing. I kept my focus and each time just gently steered us back to the topic at hand. IT WORKED! No, we didn't accomplish much but we didn't argue either!

Funny, things have been so bad for so long that now when they seem to go even a little bit right, it feels so odd. I can't say that he said anything today that gave me more hope than I had before but the success of being able to talk about something difficult without it leading to an argument does give me a bit of hope. Is that crazy? Or is that the difference between hanging on and quitting? Finding success in the process instead of the results? The whole idea that the journey is sometimes more important than the destination? I know that I no longer hope for what we once had... .  just something better than what we have now.

[waverider]

A highly sensitive emotional radar enables them to sense your mood often well before you are aware of it, so they can act preemptively to take the sting out of what you may say

It is difficult, lots of positive words but little real change. You are still negotiating while standing in the tide, on shifting sand.

What confidence do you have in promise given today during crisis talks?

When "normal" day to day life resumes and he goes back to reacting on automatic impulse to whats happening around him, do you think promises made today will carry any weight? Will they even seem to make any sense to him?

The mind and emotion of a pwBPD reacts to the here and now, the "truths" are twisted to fit the mood of the moment. As the mood changes so correspondingly do the "truths'. Commitments and promises are made based on the "truths" of the moment. As these change so do the reasons for the promises, and impulses of the moment take priority. Promises are broken.

Round you go again.

At the end of the day what is your inner instincts screaming out for? Find out this, and that becomes the solid ground you need to seek from where you make more effect decisions.

[byasliver]

At the end of the day what is your inner instincts screaming out for? Find out this, and that becomes the solid ground you need to seek from where you make more effect decisions.

I did a lot of thinking on just that question yesterday because I tend to have pretty good instincts. The answer is that I see him admitting things he hasn't in the past - things about himself. There seems to be a slowly developing shift in his perceptions towards more healthy thoughts. He is being treated by three different therapists plus going to a support group once a week. Two of the T's I don't know much about but one I have spoken to at length and she doesn't cut him any slack at all. I attended one session with her and she really pushed him to SEE my pain/fear and acknowledge his role in that. At that time she said she needed to work with him to get him to a healthier place and then she wants to bring me back in and work with us together. That is supposed to happen next month.

He's running out of ways to discount his actions and starting (although in the tiniest ways) to be more accountable and to make healthier choices. BPD is not a non-treatable mental illness although it is difficult. I DO see progress. Yes, I've seen it before and watched him backslide but the amount of progress seems to be growing. My feelings are becoming more detached in slight ways but he even owned up to that yesterday. Used to be that he'd say I needed to not pull away but yesterday he could understand my distance and that it was on him to work at gaining my trust back. The one therapist I've talked to is BIG on getting him to see the other side of things - maybe whatever she is doing is finally starting to take effect.

As for me, I'm starting to not put much faith in his words or he deeds separately but, instead, looking at the bigger picture. Using the good instincts I have to look at things more clearly. I finally gave up on the idea that I want what we once had and now just want better than what we have had recently. Time will tell.

[waverider]

If you have decided to stick this out you need a plan.

First off approach it, at least for now, that leaving is not an option as it will need commitment to get through the set backs. You can revise this in say 6 months or a year

Work out what bottom line issues are just not happening. Have firm boundaries and positive action to take to enforce them with least conflict.

Work out what you can let go and not bug you.

What can go on the back burner to be addressed down the track when things are in a better place.

This should leave you with a short list of things to work on (the shorter the better). Focus on these only, until you have them sorted and consolidated.

The biggest hindrance to progress is attempting too much and getting lost or confused. There is also only so many changes they, and you, can cope with at once.

If you like to be organised it does no harm to keep a journal, or at least periodic status reports for yourself. Sounds clinical, but what happens is you make progress, but with all the set backs and the fact there is always a task ahead you get disheartened. So having something to check back on you can see that in fact things have improved and you are not completely going around in circles on the same issues, or at least give you a heads up if you are.

Do everything possible to reduce any build of resentment as that is the relationship killer. Passing frustrations is normal and ok

[byasliver]

As usual, terrific advice, waverider. I do like to be organized but have always struggled with keeping a journal. I do better if I have something to guide me: i.e. "Write about this today." I've been looking at different journals, journaling apps, etc. If anyone can recommend any, that'd be great!

I'm going to take some time over the next few days and make some lists: pros/cons of staying/going; goals for myself, him and r/s; things I want/need to let go of; etc.

I did record our conversations yesterday and listened to some of that this morning. SO insightful. I highly recommend doing that for anyone. Even if it's not something you could/would use in possible future legal proceedings, I learned a lot about my own reactions and have some insight into what I did right and what I need to work on. You can't really get that otherwise unless you have a third party observing the conversation.

[waverider]

I did record our conversations yesterday and listened to some of that this morning. SO insightful. I highly recommend doing that for anyone. Even if it's not something you could/would use in possible future legal proceedings, I learned a lot about my own reactions and have some insight into what I did right and what I need to work on. You can't really get that otherwise unless you have a third party observing the conversation.

This is interesting. there has often been discussions on the merit of recording conversations. What you are suggesting here is quite a constructive purpose, a means of self monitoring and centering. In the heat of the moment I am sure we use emphasis we either did not mean nor acknowledge in hindsight. Our own twisting if you like.

[byasliver]

In the heat of the moment I am sure we use emphasis we either did not mean nor acknowledge in hindsight. Our own twisting if you like.

Exactly! I was also able to see where I was saying "too much" or not being as clear as I meant to be. It also gives me the opportunity to hear things he was saying in a more calm state. A really incredibly useful tool. I have an app on my phone that is completely silent so it's easy to look as if I'm just turning off the notifications or whatever and my uBPDh is none the wiser. I highly recommend using something like that for anyone on this journey.

[arabella]

I've been following this thread, but I haven't had anything useful to contribute so I've mostly just been reading. I had a few thoughts today.

I know that most of the literature I've read says that a pwBPD in therapy usually seems to get worse as they get better. There's a period where they start to recognize more of their feelings and express them but, unfortunately, they aren't very refined or even necessarily really accurate. I imagine there's a steep learning curve on that for pwBPD. It strikes me that perhaps your H is struggling with this phase in his recovery right now.

As for the journal (a great idea, btw!) - have you considered writing your own questions? I'm thinking maybe take a few key ideas or concepts, turn them into open-ended questions for yourself, then assign them days of the week. So, for example, "What was today's greatest improvement?" or "What do you wish had happened today that didn't?" So maybe you answer the 'improvement' question every Tuesday... .  You could set up a computer journal easily enough based on a basic calendar template (in Word, or whatever) or you could just stick your list of questions in the front of a blank journal. The nature of the questions allows you a lot of latitude to write whatever you feel you need to on any given day. Sometimes what we chose to write about, how we interpret the question on a given day, is more telling than the actual words! Right now I'm using the "Q&A a Day" 5-year journal (published by Potter Style books). It's a pretty small book, only few lines each day, but it asks a new question every day of the year and you repeat it over for 5 years. I think it's going to be really interesting to look back on as I cycle through! It's maybe not big enough for your purposes (I have another 'free-form' journal as well), but maybe something you'd like to check out for ideas?

[byasliver]

Thanks, arabella. Not sure what's going on with uBPDh: since our talk yesterday, I've seen a side of him I haven't seen in years! He's looking up recipes that he can cook! Remember my post that he has only cooked for me ONCE in the 8+ years since we met? And this isn't over-the-top charming, trying to reel me back in... .  just so much closer to the way he used to be... .  only much more careful with his words/actions... .  and so much more "normal". The most interesting part about it is that I've started to notice things I used to do that I'm sure triggered him. Like giving him a funny look when he'd attempt to say something nice. It used to be that I had such trouble trusting him that I'd look at him in disbelief. Now, I've accepted so much that I can hear him say nice things and just say, "thanks" or something like that. I still don't really put much faith in it but it doesn't trigger distrust in me either.

And when he asks if he can do something nice for me, he JUST ASKS. Before he would get so mad if I didn't want to go along with whatever he offered but since yesterday, he just offers nicely and nicely accepts whatever answer I give.

Lol. I'm reading what I've written and it sounds like such trivial things... .  but those of you with pwBPD know exactly what I mean and how BIG these little things can be.

I did some looking at apps for CBT and journaling today. Have found some that look promising!

[byasliver]

I forgot to add that he is not stomping when he walks which he used to do most of the time. Again, little to most but not to me 

[Scarlet Phoenix]

byasliver, that's great!   

[waverider]

I know that most of the literature I've read says that a pwBPD in therapy usually seems to get worse as they get better. There's a period where they start to recognize more of their feelings and express them but, unfortunately, they aren't very refined or even necessarily really accurate. I imagine there's a steep learning curve on that for pwBPD. It strikes me that perhaps your H is struggling with this phase in his recovery right now.

exactly this is why it is adviseable to work on oneself first so you are as grounded as possible before the pwBPD attempts to face and deal with the issues. a phrase I use here "you need to crack a few eggs to make an omelette""

As for the journal (a great idea, btw!) - have you considered writing your own questions? I'm thinking maybe take a few key ideas or concepts, turn them into open-ended questions for yourself, then assign them days of the week. So, for example, "What was today's greatest improvement?" or "What do you wish had happened today that didn't?" So maybe you answer the 'improvement' question every Tuesday... .  You could set up a computer journal easily enough based on a basic calendar template (in Word, or whatever) or you could just stick your list of questions in the front of a blank journal. The nature of the questions allows you a lot of latitude to write whatever you feel you need to on any given day. Sometimes what we chose to write about, how we interpret the question on a given day, is more telling than the actual words! Right now I'm using the "Q&A a Day" 5-year journal (published by Potter Style books). It's a pretty small book, only few lines each day, but it asks a new question every day of the year and you repeat it over for 5 years. I think it's going to be really interesting to look back on as I cycle through! It's maybe not big enough for your purposes (I have another 'free-form' journal as well), but maybe something you'd like to check out for ideas?

Another tool that can be used is an emotional gauge in a daily journal entries, or calander, to gauge YOUR day. Could be simple score 1-10 each day, or smiley face icons. So when you look back you can see that its not always as bad as you imagine. Prevents us doing that twisting of recollections to match our our current down mood  (mini BPD moments)

[waverider]

I've been following this thread, but I haven't had anything useful to contribute so I've mostly just been reading. I had a few thoughts today.

I know that most of the literature I've read says that a pwBPD in therapy usually seems to get worse as they get better. There's a period where they start to recognize more of their feelings and express them but, unfortunately, they aren't very refined or even necessarily really accurate. I imagine there's a steep learning curve on that for pwBPD. It strikes me that perhaps your H is struggling with this phase in his recovery right now.

As for the journal (a great idea, btw!) - have you considered writing your own questions? I'm thinking maybe take a few key ideas or concepts, turn them into open-ended questions for yourself, then assign them days of the week. So, for example, "What was today's greatest improvement?" or "What do you wish had happened today that didn't?" So maybe you answer the 'improvement' question every Tuesday... .  You could set up a computer journal easily enough based on a basic calendar template (in Word, or whatever) or you could just stick your list of questions in the front of a blank journal. The nature of the questions allows you a lot of latitude to write whatever you feel you need to on any given day. Sometimes what we chose to write about, how we interpret the question on a given day, is more telling than the actual words! Right now I'm using the "Q&A a Day" 5-year journal (published by Potter Style books). It's a pretty small book, only few lines each day, but it asks a new question every day of the year and you repeat it over for 5 years. I think it's going to be really interesting to look back on as I cycle through! It's maybe not big enough for your purposes (I have another 'free-form' journal as well), but maybe something you'd like to check out for ideas?

I experienced this, I am sure it is a direct consequence of a substantial reduction in open conflict and resultant lowering of their defensive stance. Sometimes it is their way of apologizing without feeling vulnerable by voicing apologies. Keep in mind though that this may not be sustainable, as it is probably still impulse driven, a desire to please rather than a real sense of responsibility. But it is a step in the right direction.

Be careful of heaping too much praise on these behaviors, as receiving praise is often the motivation. Once received the need is met and the impulse is sated. Praise more the mundane run of the mill responsibility type chores. Otherwise he may only do the "high profile/praise" grand gestures, rather than day to day nitty gritty. That is my experience with my partner anyway, max praise value for effort, because ultimately it is still BPD driven and about receiving appreciation rather then meeting a responsibility.

Stay objective and be aware of the extreme cycles, stay centred and dont follow them

[arabella]

Another tool that can be used is an emotional gauge in a daily journal entries, or calander, to gauge YOUR day. Could be simple score 1-10 each day, or smiley face icons. So when you look back you can see that its not always as bad as you imagine. Prevents us doing that twisting of recollections to match our our current down mood  (mini BPD moments)

Yes! I've started putting a self-score of 1-10 (1 = clinical depression, I need to call my doctor; 10 = I saw a unicorn) beside each of my daily journal entries in my Q&A book. I've also been using a smiley face scoring system to track my dBPDh's moods in my calendar (so I can spot patterns, esp with rx changes). Very, very useful! I find that my perception of time is really off these days so this is often a good reality check.

I did some looking at apps for CBT and journaling today. Have found some that look promising!

If you find a few that are good, maybe you could share with the class? I'd be very interested for myself!

Glad to hear that you're starting to see some improvement. The stuff you mention is HUGE. I know what you mean about things sounding 'little' but being really big!