We don't agreee on the problem

[alembic]

Nobody is saying that any of this is easy ... . it isn't. It's very hard. But a shift in focus can at least improve the odds of improvements.

Hello again Auspicious.

Thanks again for the reply, and I'll try and keep the advice in mind.

I do understand the idea that telling her she's wrong isn't going to help.  I can see that from our life together.


My parents-in-law make a grim warning for me, though, of what can happen if you follow this path for too long.  My mother-in-law has a very similar temperament to my wife, and after 40 years of marriage, her husband seems to have concluded that the only way to avoid 'incidents' between them is to do pretty much everything himself, and not to expect anything from his wife.  She happily accepts him doing everything, and yet he still gets no credit for it,  and she criticises him at every opportunity.  My own future, if I'm not careful.

I've gone through periods where I've thought 'If only I changed this, or if only I changed that - everything will be alright then'.  But it never has been.  And by now I'm convinced there's no magic solution. As soon as one problem is solved, another magically appears to take its place, like a hydra.

I feel convinced by now that BPD is entirely emotion driven.  There's no logic to it, and it's desperately looking for the logic that actually drives you crazy.  I think it's a mistake to imagine that you can make the relationship better by making adjustments to your lifestyle as a couple.   The reasons that the BPD gives are just rationalisations for their emotions.  It's the emotions that drive everything, and the rationalizations follow to justify them, so if you listen to the rationalizations and try and act on them, you are doomed to failure, and just make yourself exhausted and frustrated into the bargain.

Until something happens that lends emotional stability (therapy, desire to change, whatever) the same patterns of behaviour keep happening again and again, under different pretexts.  But if you start to see through the pretexts and refuse to play the game, you're just accused of being insensitive and uncaring.  Anything to draw you into the conflict zone again.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[yeeter]

It's very hard sometimes to sit back, and just accept that she is doing things like this. It's also embarrassing to have to meet the officials concerned, knowing what my wife has been saying to them, and the opinion they may well have formed of me as a result of it.

It IS hard!  I live in a small town and this especially bothered me.  And at one time she was connected to people at work, with similar behaviors and I was always worried about it (reputation matters!).

BUT - eventually I just stepped up and made myself visible.  Developed my own interactions with various people, independent of my wife.  And then guess what happened - a handful of times now people have reached out to me, unsolicited, to tell me specifically they see what my wife is like.  I almost cried the first time that happened.

Now Im sure there are still those that she has completely hooked on her reality.  But it doesnt bother me any more, because I now know there are some that arent, and that see the dynamics. 

[ForeverDad]

Chosen asks: Why tell someone they're ill if nothing will change?

I recently saw a question posted on another website which stated: How did you find out you had BPD? And how did you feel when you found out? Angry, relieved or other?

There were 200+ responses in one day. Around 200 borderlines came forward eager to share. About 175 of them said  RELIEVED that they finally new WHAT was wrong with them and that there were treatments that could help them. Many found out in hospitals after suicide attempts after years of suffering with their madness and no one helping or knowing what was wrong. These were diagnosed by psychiatric doctors. Several had found out via loved one's and social workers bringing it to their attention and then later diagnoses by psych's. Some had even diagnosed themselves after reading books and then were later diagnoses by psychs. More than half of these people claimed they were in DBT or graduated from DBT both with significant improvements and some had even improved themselves via self help after finding out what it actually was that was wrong with them, thus directing them to the appropriate self help products. I find this to be good evidence for me to believe that bringing awareness to them is better than doing nothing and expecting them to just figure it out on their own. But that's just my opinion based on these facts observed.

To put this in perspective, those who read the question and responded were pwBPD (people with BPD) who were aware of and working on their issues.  That's only one subset of pwBPD.

The 'other' subset of pwBPD who have heard about BPD are those who are in Denial of their issues.  Denial is common, as well as Blaming and Blame Shifting.  In other words, "I'm okay so you must be the problem."  Sadly, pwBPD generally find it extremely hard to be receptive to that information from their close relationship partners.  There's just too much emotional relationship baggage for the messages to get through to them positively as intended.  That is why the best odds for success, if any, is from a neutral, trained and perceptive professional who has no emotional relationship with the individuals.

There is another huge group or subset, ones who have never (yet) heard of BPD and it's spectrum of behaviors and the wide range of intensity.  Will they respond as those on that BPD board quoted above?  Some will quickly, some will in time, some won't.

While getting therapy is good, my experience has been that courts are not often inclined to force or enforce people going to therapy.  Courts seem to deal with people as they are and is not focused on improving behaviors.  They mostly make decisions based to some extent on the existing behaviors.  Yes, they may order 'Anger Management' but often that is just some classes and success is of course not guaranteed.  Then what to do after that?

My experience... . I tried Staying for years (not here, I hadn't found out about BPD until mere months before my marriage imploded and I came to peer support after we separated) and yet my then-spouse consistently refused to listen to me during her periodic rants and rages.  And over time she gradually stopped listening during the ever-shorter times in between.  She literally told me she had lost respect for me and instead demanded 'respect me' and she declared she was going to 'wear the pants'.  I took that as her declaration she wouldn't listen to me or reason with me any more.  It has been 7-8 years and I haven't seen recovery, I still get blamed and raged at periodically.  I deal with things as they are, not as I'd like them to be.  Our marriage ended, not my wish.  Sadly.  But that's reality.

I hope you can find success in your endeavors.  Maybe 'Staying' will work for you.  Maybe it will only be 'Staying For Now'.  Only time will tell.  If your spouse still doesn't respond over time, then decide what to do next.  As you become more educated with the disorders, behaviors, coping methods, communication skills, understanding your options and legal strategies then you will be able make more informed and more confident decisions.

[alembic]

To put this in perspective, those who read the question and responded were pwBPD (people with BPD) who were aware of and working on their issues.  That's only one subset of pwBPD.

The 'other' subset of pwBPD who have heard about BPD are those who are in Denial of their issues.  Denial is common, as well as Blaming and Blame Shifting.  In other words, "I'm okay so you must be the problem."  Sadly, pwBPD generally find it extremely hard to be receptive to that information from their close relationship partners.  There's just too much emotional relationship baggage for the messages to get through to them positively as intended.  That is why the best odds for success, if any, is from a neutral, trained and perceptive professional who has no emotional relationship with the individuals.

There is another huge group or subset, ones who have never (yet) heard of BPD and it's spectrum of behaviors and the wide range of intensity.  Will they respond as those on that BPD board quoted above?  Some will quickly, some will in time, some won't.

Yes, exactly. Denial is the difficulty.

I've raised the topic of BPD twice with my wife, the first time 7 years ago.   Her response was 'They're the people who cut themselves, aren't they? I don't do that'.  That was the end of it, as far as she was concerned.

I raised it again more recently, and she agreed to go and see her doctor, and ask him about it.  He asked her some general questions about her past behaviour, and she gave some (in my view) blatantly incorrect replies.  So on that basis, he dismissed a diagnosis of BPD.  It seems quite likely that she deliberately gave him the less than honest answers, to make sure that the investigation didn't go any further.

It's like the old joke about how many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?  One, but the lightbulb really has to want to change.  At the moment, my wife doesn't want to change.   She can see the unhappy environment she lives in very keenly, and it certainly makes her unhappy too, but it seems very important for her mental state that she feels responsible for precisely none of it.  She told me explicitly not so long ago that she believes our relationship problems are 100% caused by me.  She won't even contemplate owning 1% of our marital problems.  Even in a marriage with someone I strongly believe has BPD, I can see that I am also responsible for some of our problems, and I would never imagine myself as having no responsibility whatsoever.  She even went so far as to say that if she did turn out to have some mental health issues, those were also caused by me!

This is why therapy doesn't work for her.  She doesn't want to fix what's wrong. At least not yet. She just wants to be told that whatever is wrong, it isn't her fault.  So she twists everything, to make it sound like nothing is her fault, and in fact, that she's a saint for putting up with it all.  When  it's very hard to do that, because the facts are strongly against her, she instead derails the discussion by breaking down and sobbing, to divert attention back to her distress.   The concept being, I think, that with 'nons',  the more distressed person is often the one more likely to be telling the truth.  So she hopes that her emotional distress will make her story seem more convincing.  It often does.

[alembic]

BUT - eventually I just stepped up and made myself visible.  Developed my own interactions with various people, independent of my wife.  And then guess what happened - a handful of times now people have reached out to me, unsolicited, to tell me specifically they see what my wife is like.  I almost cried the first time that happened.

I'm really happy that this happened to you, yeeter.  You deserve it, you really do.

I hope people will do me the same courtesy, and judge me by what they see when I interact with them, rather than what my wife leads them to believe.

Time will tell, I guess.  But I'm really glad that happened for you.

[ForeverDad]

I raised it again more recently, and she agreed to go and see her doctor, and ask him about it.  He asked her some general questions about her past behaviour, and she gave some (in my view) blatantly incorrect replies.  So on that basis, he dismissed a diagnosis of BPD.  It seems quite likely that she deliberately gave him the less than honest answers, to make sure that the investigation didn't go any further.

Without external input, such as from you, the doctor couldn't really make any reliable judgment.  And if that was her GP, perhaps it would have been wiser for him to refer her to someone more qualified such as a perceptive psychologist or experienced therapist.  However, likely if you insisted that you go too then she would have refused since she wouldn't control the interaction?

So it's been many years.  She hasn't improved significantly, despite you actively trying.  The ball's in your court.  So far she's resistant to change, what can you do differently?  How are your boundaries?  What are your alternatives?

Since the children are affected, what can you do to make things better for them?  So far your tactics have had limited effect, limited benefit.

(Disclaimer... . I spend most of my time here on the Family Law and Divorce board since that was my outcome.  Sad and distressing as the prospect of divorce may be, one positive is that the children would have at some regular time in a calm and peaceful environment - your separate home.  Also, they'd have an example of what parenting should be like and that there are some behaviors not tolerated.  That example would help them when they grow up and choose spouses for themselves.  With the way things are now, you don't want them to default to choosing relationships like Dad and Mom have, right?  While family court may not see their mother's behaviors as actionable enough to severely limit her contact with them, that alternative could be be an improvement to the current situation.  And for all you know, standing up for yourself and hence the children too may have a positive effect on her and she might take a closer look at herself.  Maybe.  After all these years, maybe not.)

[alembic]

Without external input, such as from you, the doctor couldn't really make any reliable judgment.  And if that was her GP, perhaps it would have been wiser for him to refer her to someone more qualified such as a perceptive psychologist or experienced therapist.  However, likely if you insisted that you go too then she would have refused since she wouldn't control the interaction?

Hello again ForeverDad,

Yeah, it was her GP.  They're very fussy about patient confidentiality here, so it's very difficult to get joint appointments.  In general, you often hear patients complaining that you have to diagnose yourself before you can get appropriate treatment from a GP, so here it's clearly even harder, because altered perception of reality is one of the hallmarks of this condition. So it seems essentially rather daft asking the patient ':)o you think you're mentally ill, then?'.

I've found that medical profession have in general made things for us worse, not better.  They diagnosed depression in my wife 7 years ago when she was hospitalised, and ignored my suggestion that BPD seemed a more likely diagnosis (although she may well have been depressed too).  She's been on anti-depressants ever since, but they haven't really done any good.  Probably because depression isn't the underlying problem.

To be honest, I get the impression that unless the patient goes up to their GP and says, 'you know, I keeping mirroring people all the time, see everything in black and white, have very unstable emotions and keep alternately idolizing and devaluing my partner - what could it be, doc?', they aren't going to help much.  And my wife certainly doesn't view herself like that, even though she does all of these things. 

She's very clever when I'm around as well. For example, at one of our therapy sessions, she said something like 'He's so insensitive and uncaring, he even accused me of having Borderline Personality Disorder ! (sob, sob) Can you imagine how terrible it is to be told that by someone you love?'  Phrasing it like that practically begs the listener to go 'There, there - of course you don't'.

If I say, 'That's because you do have it' - it makes me look like exactly what she's just said - uncaring and insensitive. 

How are your boundaries?

Poor.  But I'm working on them at the moment. We'll see if it does any good.  The problem is, she sees setting boundaries as a 'provocative act', and they can be triggers for rages.  I've established a few more recently.

With the way things are now, you don't want them to default to choosing relationships like Dad and Mom have, right?

Too right.  But  I've got rather a lot against me.  Her father's a family lawyer, for a start.  And her family are very wealthy, and can afford as much legal support as they want.

[Matt]

Wow - good discussion!

Just some thoughts... .

* In some cases, there is a diagnosis based on objective testing.  My wife and I both took the MMPI-2, under court supervision, and it enabled the Ph.D. psychologist who had been appointed by the court to diagnose her with "multiple psychological disorders" including BPD.  I was advised to learn about BPD and how to deal with someone who has it - the kinds of stuff we work on here - and that has been a huge help.

* If there is no diagnosis, that doesn't mean the other party doesn't have BPD (and/or some other stuff).  We amateurs can't diagnose someone, and it's especially impossible to diagnose someone you're close to.  So usually, if there is no professional diagnosis, it's best to observe the patterns of behavior, and focus on them - not the underlying causes like BPD or whatever - and figure out strategies for dealing with those behaviors effectively.  The key to that may be to give up (which is hard to do!) the idea that you can somehow persuade or trick the other party into changing those patterns - you might be able to get her to do a specific thing one time, or to stop doing a specific thing, but the big patterns will remain, because they are driven by underlying causes (which may include BPD or whatever).

As an example, my wife used to accuse me (100% falsely) of cheating on her.  It may have been reasonable for me to ask her never to make such an accusation in front of the kids - in fact she did not make that change, but it was worth a try.  But expecting her to never accuse me of something I didn't do would be unrealistic - just not within her capability.

* It may help - as others have suggested - to get very skilled with boundaries, and how to make them work for you.  I found it completely ineffective to say, "You shouldn't do X" or "I expect you to always do Y." - just caused a fight and made things worse.  Even if I phrased it in a better way - as a boundary - "If you do X I will do Y." - which works with many people, but not with my wife - she just dug in her heels.

But... . if I said nothing at all, and instead just put my boundary into action - if she did X, I did Y - that worked better.  For example, she used to call me and rant at me, pretty often.  Instead of saying, ":)on't rant at me over the phone" - bad boundary! - or "If you raise your voice or say unfair things I will hang up" - good boundary but not for my wife - what I learned to do was, if she raised her voice or said inappropriate things, I just hung up the phone.  If she called back, I didn't answer - we were done for that day.  (I was often out of town on business.)

That worked!  She pretty quickly quit speaking to me inappropriately on the phone.  We never discussed it, and a few times she tested that boundary, but I maintained it.  I think you may find some solutions like that too - think very clearly about the pattern and how you will change your behavior, and then do it very consistently.

* I think it is super-important to clarify in your own mind what your objectives are.  For example, is it #1 to stay in the relationship?  Or is #1 to provide a good home for the kids?  Or is #1 to be in a healthy relationship?  When you decide exactly what outcome you are aiming for, then you can choose your steps accordingly.  But if you say, "My objective is for my wife to act right", you're cheating - that's an expectation for her to make different choices, and it's outside your control.  You have to choose objectives which are more-or-less in your control, and then figure out the steps to get you to those objectives, without expecting the other party's behavior to change much.

* At the very end of your answer to FD, you talk about what you're up against, if you decide to end the marriage.  That's a big subject, and worth exploring;  don't assume that you can't win.  If you want to explore that further, you might want to post about it on the "Family Law" board here - not here on "Staying" - and maybe work through what strategy options you might have.  (Most of those on Family Law are in the US, and things may be somewhat different in the UK - might be good to put "UK" in the title of your thread to see if other Brits will see that and help.)

[alembic]

* It may help - as others have suggested - to get very skilled with boundaries, and how to make them work for you.  I found it completely ineffective to say, "You shouldn't do X" or "I expect you to always do Y." - just caused a fight and made things worse.  Even if I phrased it in a better way - as a boundary - "If you do X I will do Y." - which works with many people, but not with my wife - she just dug in her heels.

Hello Matt.  Many thanks for your consideration.

I found this paragraph really helpful, and it matched my own experience.  I've always been puzzled why the "If you do X, I will do Y" stuff doesn't ever seem to work with my wife.   I've always described it as 'deal making' in conversations with her, but it amounts to the same thing. My wife simply can't (or won't) do it. Even if Y is something she really wants (or at least says she does!) she won't do X for it, more or less whatever X is.   Perhaps it's about power?  Or maybe it's that 'executive control' thing again?  But whatever's the cause, I agree it's a problem.

It's even more of a problem, because a lot of the text books on relationships absolutely recommend deal making as a way to solve relationship problems.  It tends to be the default strategy with marriage therapists.  So trying to get that to work with someone who doesn't ever like deals isn't going to be easy.  Which has been exactly my experience.  She says stuff like 'If you really loved me, you'd be happy to do Y for me without asking for X' etc.

But... . if I said nothing at all, and instead just put my boundary into action - if she did X, I did Y - that worked better.  For example, she used to call me and rant at me, pretty often.  Instead of saying, ":)on't rant at me over the phone" - bad boundary! - or "If you raise your voice or say unfair things I will hang up" - good boundary but not for my wife - what I learned to do was, if she raised her voice or said inappropriate things, I just hung up the phone.  If she called back, I didn't answer - we were done for that day.  (I was often out of town on business.)

That's also a very interesting observation.  Yes, reflecting on it, I've had more success when I just imposed boundaries, rather than negotiating them.  There's typically a lot of thunder and lightning and indignation from her that goes along with that, of course, but in hindsight, the boundaries had better luck at sticking. I've often tried to be upfront and negotiate boundaries in the past, and haven't really got anywhere (my wife hates talking about relationship stuff.  Is this common for women with BPD I wonder?) 

* I think it is super-important to clarify in your own mind what your objectives are.  For example, is it #1 to stay in the relationship?  Or is #1 to provide a good home for the kids?  Or is #1 to be in a healthy relationship?  When you decide exactly what outcome you are aiming for, then you can choose your steps accordingly.  But if you say, "My objective is for my wife to act right", you're cheating - that's an expectation for her to make different choices, and it's outside your control.  You have to choose objectives which are more-or-less in your control, and then figure out the steps to get you to those objectives, without expecting the other party's behavior to change much.

I think this is also very helpful.  My #1 priority is most probably the kids.  I could definitely live without the relationship, although if I'm honest, I fear the reprisals that might follow if I act to end it.  As I mentioned above, my wife's family are rather rich and 100% on her side.  My wife has stormed out many times over the years and threatened never to come back, but y'know, in recent times I've actually started hoping that she might follow through with that for once.  Because if she really left, that would then be her choice, and then hopefully she would be less mad with me because she'd done what she wanted.  But perhaps that's a vain hope - she'd probably be just as mad with me as if I'd walked out, anyway.

[Matt]

I don't think of boundaries as either "negotiated" or "imposed".  I think of it as "Here's what I will do" - and then I do it.

"Negotiated", to me, means you both will agree, and that would be great, but what I found - after 10 years! - was that we weren't going to agree, and I still needed some things.  So - back to my example - when I was traveling, after a long day, I was glad to talk to my wife, but I needed to not be yelled at or accused of stuff - I just couldn't have that in my life anymore.  So I didn't "negotiate" or even "impose" - I just did it - hung up the phone any time she started in.  And that ended the phenomenon - I still experienced the very beginnings of a rant, a few times, but if I tried to change the subject, and she didn't go with that, but continued the rant - "Click!".  End of rant.  No negotiation, and I didn't "impose" anything on her either - I took a unilateral action - hanging up - every time she crossed my boundary.  It worked!

Not so easy when you're in the same room, but I would sometimes leave the room, and if she followed me, leave the house.  A few times I took a book, and went to Barnes and Noble, and just sat there and read for a few hours, and then went home.  My boundary was, "If you speak inappropriately to me, I will go to a different room, or out of the house, and come back later."  Never stated - action not words.  That worked too, though it had a cost... .

I don't think deal-making is likely to be the right idea, if the other party has BPD or something similar.  And frankly, I don't think there is any chance you will have a healthy relationship - ever - unless she gets a diagnosis and treatment;  a few years of good treatment can make a huge difference, but without that, you can manage the situation, but you can't make it anything that I would call healthy.

So... . if your priority is the kids... . what do you think is the best path forward for them?  Do you think it will be best to learn ways to keep the marriage intact?  Or better to look for the best way to end it?

[Auspicious]

I've always been puzzled why the "If you do X, I will do Y" stuff doesn't ever seem to work with my wife.   I've always described it as 'deal making' in conversations with her, but it amounts to the same thing. My wife simply can't (or won't) do it. Even if Y is something she really wants (or at least says she does!) she won't do X for it, more or less whatever X is.  

Well, what you are looking for there is rational thinking. None of us is rational all the time, and mental illness (which you believe her to suffer from) pretty much by definition involves a lot of irrationality.

So it kind of makes sense that your expectations of this kind of rationality from her would leave you feeling disappointed.

That's what makes tools like emotional validation, and boundaries, so important. They don't depend on getting her to change what she is doing - they depend on getting you to change what you are doing. Which is what you actually have control over.

[Auspicious]

No negotiation, and I didn't "impose" anything on her either - I took a unilateral action - hanging up - every time she crossed my boundary.  It worked!

Right   If anything, you "impose" discipline on yourself, not the other person.

[Matt]

No negotiation, and I didn't "impose" anything on her either - I took a unilateral action - hanging up - every time she crossed my boundary.  It worked!

Right   If anything, you "impose" discipline on yourself, not the other person.

Yes - exactly.  This is the key - finding ways to make things better by making more effective choices for ourselves.

[alembic]

Right smiley  If anything, you "impose" discipline on yourself, not the other person.

No negotiation, and I didn't "impose" anything on her either - I took a unilateral action - hanging up - every time she crossed my boundary.  It worked!

Right   If anything, you "impose" discipline on yourself, not the other person.

I understand what you are driving at gentlemen, and you may well be right that this is the correct approach to take.

However, I'm not clear that the line between imposing discipline on yourself and the other person is always so clear cut... .

Suppose, for example, you always allow yourself to get drawn into helping the other person in certain situations, even though the other person is perfectly capable of helping themselves. 

If you impose discipline on yourself to not automatically offer help (creating a boundary for yourself), possibly because you feel overstretched, this can look like an "aggressive" action to the other person (you are no longer offering help, where you used to), or that you are "imposing" the responsibility for dealing with the situation on the other person (you are effectively forcing them to do things for themselves, and hence you really are sort of forcing them to change their behaviour).

A similar situation to this cropped up recently - my wife needed a new car, and simply expected me to buy her one. She is perfectly capable of buying her own car - she has plenty of money.  In the past I might have just paid for one to keep the peace, but this time I refused, and said I thought she should buy her own car, since she has the money.  She made a big fuss about how unreasonable it was that she should have to buy her own car, and that if I couldn't see that, then I was the one with the problem.   In the end, she gave in, and bought her own car, but not without creating a huge amount of fuss and strife about it (for example, deliberately buying an overpriced vehicle, just to show what trouble I had caused her by not helping out with the buying process).  I'm sure she thinks that me choosing not to buy her a car was an aggressive and unpleasant action, whereas in reality it was just me imposing a boundary on myself.  But me imposing that boundary did force her to change her behaviour (buy a car out of her own money).

[zaqsert]

Ultimately, you only have control over what you do.  You have no control over what your wife does.  As an adult, she gets to make her own decisions.  You may suggest, and even choose to do some things for her, but only she controls what she does.

I had a hard time with this one too until I started trying it several months ago.  There had been things that my wife asked me to do, and even more that she complained about to the point where I stepped in and did something about it.  It then baffled me when she accused me of not helping her, or of helping her for all the wrong reasons.

When I started not to jump in and try to help, at first my wife went through what was probably an extinction burst.  Then she got used to it.  She started to do some things for herself.  Others, she never did anything about.  Those may have turned out just to be complaints for sake of complaining.  Ironically, she even thanked me for helping her more!  I think this was because now I tend to help her only with things that she wants help with.  I no longer impose myself and my help when she doesn't want it.

When you choose not to get drawn into something with your wife, she may do something different than she used to do, but that's her choice.  You are not making her do this new thing.  You are just stepping out of the way, and she then does whatever she chooses to do.  If the responsibility was hers in the first place and you took it over, you're just giving the responsibility back to her.

[alembic]

I've always been puzzled why the "If you do X, I will do Y" stuff doesn't ever seem to work with my wife.   I've always described it as 'deal making' in conversations with her, but it amounts to the same thing. My wife simply can't (or won't) do it. Even if Y is something she really wants (or at least says she does!) she won't do X for it, more or less whatever X is.  

Well, what you are looking for there is rational thinking. None of us is rational all the time, and mental illness (which you believe her to suffer from) pretty much by definition involves a lot of irrationality.

So it kind of makes sense that your expectations of this kind of rationality from her would leave you feeling disappointed.

I agree that no-one is rational all the time - we're all human, not robots.  

But there's something deeper here, I think.  I like to think of myself as 'goal driven'.  I usually find it quite easy to decide in most situations what it is I want to achieve.  Then it's a matter of working out how to get there ('the process' which can be difficult, or in some cases, impossible.

Broadly speaking, I think my actions are usually consistent with my goals.   Of course, sometimes I make bad decisions, which take me further away from my goals. But when I spot those, I try and admit them, and make better ones in future.  I can usually explain why I took the actions I did, even when those actions turned out to be mistakes.

My wife seems to be anything but 'goal driven'.  In fact, I would describe her as 'process driven'.  She doesn't seem that interested in achieving goals, and instead seems to feel that the way she does things is more important than what it achieves. She doesn't modify her behaviours if they don't bring her closer to her goals, because she doesn't have much in the way of goals to judge her progress against.  She often has great difficulty explaining her actions, and even considers it upsetting to be asked to do so.

Regarding 'deals': I will usually try and do deals that appear to bring me closer to my goals (I will do X if you will do Y, if Y is one of my goals, or the pathway towards one).  Since my wife doesn't seem to have much in the way of goals, perhaps deals just don't come naturally to her.  There are things that sometimes she complains about not getting, which I might try to construe as goals (e.g. get more sleep), but she still doesn't seem interested in doing deals to get more of what she appears to want.  I sometimes get told that if I really loved her, I would help with these things without expecting anything in return.  Other times, she takes actions that seem completely contrary to what I have assumed to be her goals (like unnecessarily getting up at 4 am to mark work.  Not likely to get more sleep like that).  If I question whether her actions are really bringing her closer to what she really wants, I am accused of interfering, and trying to control what she is doing.

One thing she's a champion at, though, is explaining all of this irrationality in a way that (nearly) makes sense.   She never says 'Gosh, I'm just feeling that way today, honey, humour me'.   She will always instead construct some elaborate and usually plausible sounding explanation as to why the thing she's doing today, even though it seems to completely contradict what she said yesterday, is not in fact a contradiction, but instead constitutes a 'special case', which she just didn't mention before.

So it's therefore not very easy to persuade my wife's that she's behaving irrationally.   She will just change the goalposts, and say, 'See, my behaviour is rational, if you look at it like this'.  And that's usually enough to convince others, who can't see the big picture, because they don't live with us, and see the effect that this type of thinking has, over time.

[alembic]

Others, she never did anything about.  Those may have turned out just to be complaints for sake of complaining.  Ironically, she even thanked me for helping her more!  I think this was because now I tend to help her only with things that she wants help with.  I no longer impose myself and my help when she doesn't want it.

Hi zaqsert.

Thanks for replying.

Yeah, I've noticed the 'less is more' thing too.  But I've just attributed it to the general irrationality of our situation. 

I still find it tricky, though, in a marriage with children involved.  How do you apportion responsibility for tasks in the family?  In a 'normal' family, I would think the parties come to some sort of amicable agreement that they are all comfortable with.  But in our family, these issues are a constant battleground over who does what, and what is 'fair'.

I think we are gravitating towards a solution where the adults increasingly do our own thing, without relying on the other as much as possible. It's sad, because I don't think that's what families are really meant to be like, but anything else seems to involve too much friction and strife.

[Matt]

Your example about buying a car is a good one, and I like Zaqsert's thoughts:  "Ultimately, you only have control over what you do.  You have no control over what your wife does."

Let's break it down a little more:

* In the past, you've paid for her car, so it's reasonable for her to expect that this time too.

* When she brings it up, you let her know that you're not willing to do that this time.  "I'll help with the shopping if you want me to, or I'll watch the kids so you have time to shop.  We both have good incomes, so you can pay for whatever car you choose, and when I buy a car I'll pay for it."

* She throws a fit;  or maybe her style is more passive-aggressive, so she pouts and gives you the silent treatment.

You made your decision about what to do - help with the shopping but not with the paying.  Don't back down because of fits or pouting.

She made her decision - to punish you by being unpleasant.  Her choice.

But you don't have to put up with being treated badly.  You can walk away - just don't be around her when she is acting badly.  Be ready to move forward when she is, but don't allow yourself to be abused - show by your actions that you are not going to be around someone who treats you badly - your boundary (whether you state it or just show it by your actions).