Moving in with the boyfriend, the oldest stepdaughter, and ugh

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So, my oldest SD16 sees her mom every other weekend, her younger sisters (14 and 10) are on a 50/50 schedule week on week off.

We just found out this past weekend that their Mama is moving in with her boyfriend of a little over a year. For me, I actually like when she lives with boyfriends because she tends to be more cooperative as far as money. My husband is truly indifferent, in the sense that he doesn't care. His only qualm is that he lives about 10 miles farther away - which adds about 15- 20 minutes of drive time. Kids go to the schools in our neighborhood and come to our house every day. So nothing changes in that respect (where it used to). 

My youngest SD10 is disappointed but not terribly. My middle SD14 is disappointed as well - but is being really stand-offish with her Dad about it. Doesn't want to talk about it. Just shrugs her shoulders and says "whatever".

Then there's my oldest SD.

Last night told us "I won't go over there. Ever."

So her Dad asked her why.

"Because all mom does is take and take and take. That's all she ever does - just takes from everybody. So she'll do it to him like she's doing to him now, and he'll get sick of it and then kick us all out. Like they all do."  

My husband told her "that's not really how it works, you can't just not see your mom anymore. DreamGirl and I also tend to enjoy the weekends together when all you kiddos are gone."

"That's fine, I'll just stay at friends' houses. I'm serious. I'm not going over there. I just won't."

So what do you do?

She's a really good kid. Dean's List, Student Council, National Honor's Society, Varsity Softball, Track, DECA, and I could keep going. It's all self inflicted success, she has her sights on a college that has a 15% - 20% acceptance rate.    

How do you make a 16yo teenaged girl do something that I don't even agree with is a wise decision?

I didn't even have anything to say last night. This is the 4th boyfriend/husband in 8 years they've lived with (there have been several others she's dated) and the 13th place they will have lived. Thirteen is a lot.

Do you recommend counseling for mom and daughter?

Do you make her go and just say - that's between you and your mom?

Do you leave it to a 16yo to just decide?

What would you do?

~DreamGirl

[DreamGirl]

So, my oldest SD16 sees her mom every other weekend, her younger sisters (14 and 10) are on a 50/50 schedule week on week off.

We just found out this past weekend that their Mama is moving in with her boyfriend of a little over a year. For me, I actually like when she lives with boyfriends because she tends to be more cooperative as far as money. My husband is truly indifferent, in the sense that he doesn't care. His only qualm is that he lives about 10 miles farther away - which adds about 15- 20 minutes of drive time. Kids go to the schools in our neighborhood and come to our house every day. So nothing changes in that respect (where it used to). 

My youngest SD10 is disappointed but not terribly. My middle SD14 is disappointed as well - but is being really stand-offish with her Dad about it. Doesn't want to talk about it. Just shrugs her shoulders and says "whatever".

Then there's my oldest SD.

Last night told us "I won't go over there. Ever."

So her Dad asked her why.

"Because all mom does is take and take and take. That's all she ever does - just takes from everybody. So she'll do it to him like she's doing to him now, and he'll get sick of it and then kick us all out. Like they all do."  

My husband told her "that's not really how it works, you can't just not see your mom anymore. DreamGirl and I also tend to enjoy the weekends together when all you kiddos are gone."

"That's fine, I'll just stay at friends' houses. I'm serious. I'm not going over there. I just won't."

So what do you do?

She's a really good kid. Dean's List, Student Council, National Honor's Society, Varsity Softball, Track, DECA, and I could keep going. It's all self inflicted success, she has her sights on a college that has a 15% - 20% acceptance rate.    

How do you make a 16yo teenaged girl do something that I don't even agree with is a wise decision?

I didn't even have anything to say last night. This is the 4th boyfriend/husband in 8 years they've lived with (there have been several others she's dated) and the 13th place they will have lived. Thirteen is a lot.

Do you recommend counseling for mom and daughter?

Do you make her go and just say - that's between you and your mom?

Do you leave it to a 16yo to just decide?

What would you do?

~DreamGirl

[GaGrl]

Does she drive yet?  Can she limit the amount of time spent on the weekends to an activity she does with her mother and sisters, then return home?

I think 16 is too old to force visitation, but that's just my experience.

[marbleloser]

""that's not really how it works, you can't just not see your mom anymore. DreamGirl and I also tend to enjoy the weekends together when all you kiddos are gone.""

I don't think I would have said this.She's 16.She needs to feel wanted somewhere and she could take this as "Hey we don't want you here ALL the time,so we're going to make you go."

There's a reason she isn't wanting to go.You need to validate that and be accepting.I wouldn't force her,because then she'll only hold the grudge against you both.Why can't she stay with you two? The other SD saying "whatever" shows her disgust and that she's tiring of the all the drama and moves.

They need a stable place.It seems you two can provide that.If dad doesn't,they'll find some guy that will(for a short time anyway) and be gone.

[Thunderstruck]

Well, I'd tell her the court order is the court order. If she has serious concerns then it could/should be modified. If it were the other way around and the D16 didn't want to go to dad's house (because of PA or something else) then I'm sure DH would want to enforce the order, right? He'd want to see his daughter.

Maybe suggest to D16 to voice her concerns to her mom and work out a solution between the two of them. If she's not comfortable staying overnight then maybe she can spend just the days with them and come back to your house at night. In any case, I really think it should be her and her mom talking these issues out (although it is good for you to listen and validate her concerns).

In the end, the best interest is for her to have a meaningful connenction with her mom. You could stress that and ask D16 how she thinks the best way to accomplish that is.

[DreamGirl]

Does she drive yet?  Can she limit the amount of time spent on the weekends to an activity she does with her mother and sisters, then return home?

I think 16 is too old to force visitation, but that's just my experience.

She does drive.

That is a solution. A good one. If mom and SD follow thru. Which they won't.

When she moved in with us, she was supposed to go over to her mom's every night for dinner (on mom's weeks)- but then they were always at the boyfriend's for dinner (or the boyfriend was there), so SD quit going.

I have a feeling that she'll say she'll go to her mom's and they'll agree.

And then she won't go.

[DreamGirl]

""that's not really how it works, you can't just not see your mom anymore. DreamGirl and I also tend to enjoy the weekends together when all you kiddos are gone.""

I don't think I would have said this.She's 16.She needs to feel wanted somewhere and she could take this as "Hey we don't want you here ALL the time,so we're going to make you go."

She knows we want her. She also knows that we value our marriage and plan things for the one weekend a month there aren't any children there. We have 5 kids between the two of us on a rotating schedule. It works really great because there are some weekends where it is just his kids. Some weekends that are just mine. Some weekends are all 5 kids. One weekend a month there are no children. I tell them all to call before they come over cause I might be having a naked day. 

They know we love them. They also know that one of the very few perks of being in a divorced family is taking a break from each parent. We have a routine that works really, really well and they are all thriving. The girls very much so - considering the risk factors of having one parent who is mentally ill. 

SD16 also knows that she needs a break from *us* too.

She also needs to spend time with her mom - I think - which is more of what this about too. Just because your Mom is making you frustrated, you don't just stop going.

She's in fact alienating herself from her mom - she's her own culprit in parental alienation. No matter how justified she may be... . she's not in any danger.

There's a reason she isn't wanting to go.You need to validate that and be accepting.I wouldn't force her,because then she'll only hold the grudge against you both.Why can't she stay with you two? The other SD saying "whatever" shows her disgust and that she's tiring of the all the drama and moves.

The reason she gave is that she doesn't agree to the move. She thinks her mom should stay in the apartment she's in (where she only goes every other weekend). 

They need a stable place.It seems you two can provide that.If dad doesn't,they'll find some guy that will(for a short time anyway) and be gone.

They do have a stable place. For SD16, it is 90% of the time at out house. For the other two, it's 50% - 70% of the time (counting the every day after school).

They are always allowed to stay with us, like when mom left her last husband and they were with us full time for two months, but I'm also not in the habit of living my life on the whims of a 16yo who is taking a stand. I know all about validation and letting them find their way.

It may be invalidating to her to hear from both parents that their relationships are important.  The difference is that my husband is telling her that his relationship isn't more important... . just that it's important. He is her softball coach, goes to all her awards ceremonies, takes her out to eat with just her and him, does school projects with her, etc. ... . where Mama tends to place all her energy into the relationship, with the kiddos slipping into a lower spot on the list of priorities.

~DreamGirl

[mamachelle]

Hey DreamGirl,

I think that having mom and DD talk it through is good. If it bounces back to DH (and you) my gut reaction is to have him frame it in a cultural context like

"eh, 16 year olds have a mind of their own... . " Let mom spiral but protect DD by just being passe about it. "it's a phase, blah blah"

I personally was thinking just now as I was walking during a break at work of at least 10 people (including step and half sisters, my long time best friend, my DH's cousin, my DD16's BF brother and another of her friends right now ) who all went out on their own and lived with a friend or BF or grandparent etc etc when they were your SD's age. None any worse for the wear now. All were or are part of blended families and all had just had enough or wanted to continue high school in peace.

With shows like "16 and pregnant" on the air and even looking at Twilight the movie  , I would hope Biomom would have some understanding that it is hard to push this issue. Maybe she left home or a sister or cousin did? I don't know, but I find in my case, BioMom watches a lot of television and movies so she tends to look for that to justify things.

hope this helps a bit,

mamachelle

[DreamGirl]

Well, I'd tell her the court order is the court order. If she has serious concerns then it could/should be modified. If it were the other way around and the D16 didn't want to go to dad's house (because of PA or something else) then I'm sure DH would want to enforce the order, right? He'd want to see his daughter.

First, I agree for the most part. I also thought a lot about if the shoe were on the other foot, I wouldn't agree to her to just stop coming over.

Probably why I asked the question - what would you do?

I don't agree with "a court order is a court order". It's not about that at all. Right now, according to the order, she should be going to her mom's 50% of the time. Upon mutual agreement, and by paying mom the same amount of child support, she moved in with us full time (except for every other weekend).

Maybe suggest to D16 to voice her concerns to her mom and work out a solution between the two of them.

And that she has. Very loudly and firmly.  

In the end, the best interest is for her to have a meaningful connenction with her mom. You could stress that and ask D16 how she thinks the best way to accomplish that is.

Do you have a 16 year old?

Just curious if you've dealt with one and how it played out.

My own 17yo wanted to stop going to his Dad's last year because he didn't like his new stepmom. I said "no way". But that's because I know he was being stubborn and unreasonable. He was mad because his Dad's new wife was 4 years older then him and telling him to clean his room - I was able to help him figure it out. Compromise was he quit going on Thursday night's because of track practice and us living closer to school... . but has just started picking them up again.

With SD16, I'm not so sure.

I want to help her without driving the wedge further. I also think we are all in this "together". I think her relationship with her Mama is important and if you leave it to two of them and their emotional maturity levels, it may be a recipe for a lot of problems.

Maybe why I'm thinking an objective third party might help (like a therapist).

~DreamGirl

[DreamGirl]

I think that having mom and DD talk it through is good. If it bounces back to DH (and you) my gut reaction is to have him frame it in a cultural context like

"eh, 16 year olds have a mind of their own... . " Let mom spiral but protect DD by just being passe about it. "it's a phase, blah blah"

I personally was thinking just now as I was walking during a break at work of at least 10 people (including step and half sisters, my long time best friend, my DH's cousin, my DD16's BF brother and another of her friends right now ) who all went out on their own and lived with a friend or BF or grandparent etc etc when they were your SD's age. None any worse for the wear now. All were or are part of blended families and all had just had enough or wanted to continue high school in peace.

Well moving day is three weeks.

Mama hasn't brought it up to my husband. SD16 brought it up last night. She's already told her mom that she wouldn't go over there and it ended in a screaming match. No resolution.

We could tell her that she doesn't have a choice and has to go. We could let her stay at friend's houses (which I used to live at my BFF's house in highschool every single weekend).

My husband isn't bringing it up to her because they are in a low contact mode right now over some separate issues.

It needs to be dealt with. At least in my opinion. Knowing my husband and my SD, she may just not go.

[ennie]

DG--so I have known you long enough to know that your SDs DEFINITELY know that you and their dad love them... . at least if I have gathered anything from your words! 

That said, I also feel that a more "validating" kind of conversation is in order.  Partly because she is old enough that if she thinks it through without resisting you guys, she will probably come to the same conclusion you have. 

Does SD16 still have a relationship with a counselor?  It might even be good to have this conversation with the counselor present--DH, SD16, and the counselor, you too if it seemed like your input was needed.  Maybe with counselor only after a validation attempt... . sometimes that is just the ticket to diffusing that teen certainty. 

I am imagining something more like this: 

SD16: There is no way I am going to live there.  So forget about sending me over there. 

DH/you:  Can you explain again why not? 

SD16: Because mom just takes... . blah blah (see above)

DH/you:  You know, I think it is hard on all of us to see mom go through the ups and downs of many relationships.  I get it.

SD16:  No, you live here.  you really do not get it.

DH/you:  That is probably true.  But I really feel for you, and I also get caught up in hoping it will work, and then it is hard to see it fail.  Plus, the moves are hard on you kids. 

SD16: Yeah.

DH/you:  So here is the thing.  Until you are 18, we need to work with the court order we have.  You know we have sort of played it by ear, and we can do that as long as that works for your mom, too.  To legally change that costs a lot of money and energy.  I would rather spend that money and energy on things that help our lives be great, like sending you to college and cool family trips.  If you really do not want to be over there at all, that may be something that would mean we would have to go to court.  I am not sure if you realize that.  Because your mom has been pretty laid back about letting you live over here most of the time, I am not sure you are aware that the court really still does hold the power, here. 

SD16:  I hate my life!  I have no choice!

DH/you:  Well, we all have choices, but when we are talking court orders, exercising that choice costs money.  You are old enough that your desires count with the court.  You are our top priority, and if we really need to make a bigger change than we have, we would do it in a heartbeat, if you needed it.  But changing a court order cost a lot of money and time.  if there is a way we can finesse it, maybe tell your mom you want to do something special with her one weekend day a month--just you and her--and not make the move with them, she might go for that.  Or what ideas do you have to make it work for your mom, too? 

SD16:  Let me think about it. 

DH/you: Also, I just want you to know that when we said we need some time for just us two, that us needing that has never been in the way of you getting what you need, too.  If you were with us 100%, we would just make sure we arrange it so we can still get a break from each other so you get time with friends and without parents telling you what to do, and we get a break from being the boss, too.  Okay?  It is not one or the other.

SD16:  I know.  I know you love me.  Because you ALWAYS say it. 

DH/you:  Is there any kind of time you enjoy with your mom at this point?  Anything you would like to do with her, if you could have it your way and BF was not even there? 

... . in other words, giving her a little more of a sense of who holds power--at her age, her desire would be powerful with a court.  But in order to avoid that expense and trouble... . it might be worth just making it work to see mom. 

Another thing I have found really works when working with teens is to give them a responsibility.  Engage them in figuring out the problem.  Have her write up what the idea plan would be, if she had to spend some time with mom to make this work.  Or ask if she could write a letter to mom explaining what she wants.  Partly, this makes her do some of the work, partly doing some of the work moves her from kid disagreeing with parents to responsible person solving problem.  Or ask her to organize a family meeting to talk about it.  Something that she has to do. 

These are just some ideas.  Plus the idea of having her put a positive spin with mom--"Mom, I want one special day just with you... . I love you and feel like we have so little time together, I would rather it be more special." 

Curious how this will pan out... .  

One last thought... . if she just does not go, what will happen?  Will her mom go to court?  Will she be upset and make it harder on the other kids?  What is the real danger/risk here that prevents you from just letting SD16 live with you all the time (assuming you could find a way to get her out of the house one weekend a month... . Junior Statement of America?).

[DreamGirl]

I just think you are the bee's knees, ennie.  

Is it so terrible that my husband's very first thought was, "Oh great, there goes the weekends with my wife"?

This stuff is so draining. The kids, the BPD parenting ripple effects, the negotiations... . the money.

I like your validation skills and I used them this morning with my middle stepdaughter who amazingly is, in my opinion, absolutely OK with the move.

"I like when Mom lives with her boyfriends. She doesn't worry about money then. I'm also used to moving, so when they break up, we'll just move again."

I actually kinda agree, I like when she has a live-in boyfriend because she just cooperates more when it comes to paying for things like contact lenses and medical co-pays. She also becomes neutralized in several other facets as far as her being better focused on her parenting. I can only guess as to why (fear of abandonment is less because of the commitment maybe?) I'm also still a little bit attached to the kids' OK-ness... . in that when they are OK, I tend to be better at being OK.

One last thought... . if she just does not go, what will happen?  Will her mom go to court?  Will she be upset and make it harder on the other kids?  What is the real danger/risk here that prevents you from just letting SD16 live with you all the time (assuming you could find a way to get her out of the house one weekend a month... . Junior Statement of America?).

She won't go to court and I think that life will just go on. My oldest stepdaughter is coming to grips with her mentally ill Mama in her own way which is to set boundaries and love her from a safe distance. My middle stepdaughter is doing the same thing.  It just looks different. SD16 won't allow her behavior in certain ways, i.e. doesn't lend her money, won't engage in arguments, doesn't indulge her impulse behaviors (like go shopping when the utility bill hasn't been paid and is turned off), and definitely won't play the rescuer on the Karpman Triangle. SD14 does and will. My therapist once confessed to me that my husband and I "take care" of Mama in several ways and once we choose not to (or no longer are required to for the sake of the children), that responsibility will fall in the lap of her children.

Hard pill to swallow, I'll admit. I also have a certain attachment to her OK-ness then too. I'm hoping in some small way that we can all hand over part of that to a boyfriend/husband.

Like I said, moving day is in three weeks. I'm interested how it will pan out, Mama tends to ignore the impending problem until it's an actual problem. They are going on a vacation this weekend to visit Grandpa. SD16 is going with... . only if the boyfriend isn't going to be there of course... . and maybe they can find a place of peace.

Here's to hoping.

~DreamGirl

[ennie]

Is it so terrible that my husband's very first thought was, "Oh great, there goes the weekends with my wife"?

IMO, not terrible at all!  That would be my husband's and my first thought, TOO, if we were in your shoes! At the same time, I have found that my SDs (who are younger, and have not felt the same level of stability yours have in some ways) really need to feel like they ALWAYS have a home here when they need it, that they are entitled to, period, at least until 18... . it is sort or the tradeoff for "having" to live here (remember, SD13 is terribly enmeshed, so a little different).   This is the place she gets to have her needs met, alone time, and a sense of her own life, not a life that is wrapped around mom's needs.  So in our family, the message here is my needs get met, your needs get met, we are all equally important (though not equally in charge or capable!).  For me that would mean that it is a good idea to avoid wording that creates an idea that either her needs get met, OR your needs get met.  :)ecoupling each of your needs... . so on the one hand, you are helping her problem solve and figuring out what her needs REALLY are (which may or may not be to live at your home full time, and ultimately you and DH are the ones who get to allow that and have to trust your own judgement, with input from mom and her consent)... . setting aside for the moment what you and DH need.  IF (capitals intentional) it really is something that needs to happen, THEN you negotiate with her to make sure you and DH have the time alone you need!  

It is not that I think it should be a big secret that you guys need alone time, just that you make clear that having a weekend a month is non-negotiable, and that her getting what she needs (which will come clear over time, through discussion) is also non-negotiable (not what she wants in all cases, but what she needs).  That even if she is there full time, you guys get alone time, period!

Know what i mean?  

The point here from my perspective is that if you make it clear that everyone's needs will be met, people tend to be more flexible... . whereas when one sets up a false dichotomy, people tend to get more rigid... . particularly if they are teens.

But the bottom line is, you have a husband who loves alone time with you!  Yippee!   

You are the greatest, too.    

[Matt]

I would tell her, "If you want to stay here all the time, that's cool.  Talk about it with your mom so everybody knows the deal.  And it will be best if you find some way to spend time with her regularly - you can drive over there for dinner some evenings, or do stuff with her on the weekends - just keep us informed what your plan is."

I say this partly because of "She's a really good kid. Dean's List, Student Council, National Honor's Society, Varsity Softball, Track, DECA, and I could keep going."  Of course, she could be a great student and all that, and still have problems, but managing all this stuff, and your description of her, sure suggests that she is very mature and able to make her own choices, and you should generally respect them - that's the big lesson from our members who were raised by parents with BPD - they were hurt most because nobody listened and let them make choices that were best for themselves.  So here's your SD16, apparently very mature and with her eyes wide open, speaking up loud and clear - so I'd say, listen to her and support her, as long as her choices are reasonable and practical.

The court order is a piece of paper.  If Mom takes Dad to court over this, c'est la vie - let it play out.  Or if Mom tries to persuade SD16 - let that play out too - let SD make her own choices, and continue to support her, so long as they are reasonable and healthy.

As far as your kid-free weekends - not the right priority til the kids are grown.  The kids need to come first.  And a mature 16-year-old with a drivers license will find places to go - she won't have to hang around the house the whole weekend - and neither will you and her dad.

The bigger problem I see is that the younger kids are spending too much time with a disordered adult... . but that's another thread... .

[Free One]

As far as your kid-free weekends - not the right priority til the kids are grown.  The kids need to come first. 

I agree. I know it's tough to accept, especially given the fact that most of us have held more than our fair share of the parenting responsibilities.

[DreamGirl]

I just don't know that it's an absolute declaration of "not the right priority".

There are also some experts who agree with me.

Mary Kelly-Williams, MA (family therapist specializing in re-marriage and stepfamilies) states that "children are your first responsibility, your marriage is your first priority".

Studies are showing this idealogy of "kids come first" is inducing a very entitled generation and is creating a false sense of importance, especially when entering the "real world".  Adults are landing in therapists office explaining that these perfect childhoods where their parents put them above all else is actually causing depression along with other issues stunting their emotional maturity.

My children (step and bio alike) are extremely important to me. Bottom line. I express that to them as often as they "need" with every P/T conference, award ceremony, graduation, baseball game, track meet, dinner, Saturday afternoon hike that I take with them.

When it comes to my bank account - their braces, their medical expenses, their sports equipment, their school fees, their every basic necessity (and then some) is met before my taking a vacation with my husband is.    

I don't believe in this self-sacrafice scenario where my marriage becomes so de-prioritized that it is no longer important enough to pay attention to. I've been down that road and I almost lost the marriage. Then what? What does that teach the kids about their future relationships?

I think that's why I like ennie's "importance" outlook. She's important. I'm important. The relationship with her mom is important. The relationship with her dad is important. Our marriage is important.

My responsibility to her is first. If I'm sending her to her mom's where she is unsafe because I want alone time with my husband, that's not OK. She's safe though. Her needs are being met, just not the way she wants them to be. She "is" being deprioritized but not so much that she can't survive.

How much is it her being head strong thinking that her mom is making a poor choice and in all reality using a pretty immature skill by emotionally blackmailing her (if you don't do what I think, I won't be around you)?

I do think the hubs was invalidating with his statement. I think he should explain it in better terms with her. But being honest about your feelings is never a bad thing in my book. He loves his wife - and I'm not in a competition with her for affection. Him wanting alone time with me is just as OK as wanting alone time with her.

It really is.

~DreamGirl

[Matt]

It's not black and white.  A mature, bright 16-year-old doesn't need 24/7 supervision.  If you want to go do something with her father, great - make sure there's food in the house and go on a date.  Or vice versa - if you would like the house to yourselves, give her some money for a movie and tell her to get lost for a few hours.

That can be done without making her live somewhere or with someone she's not comfortable with.

[DreamGirl]

It's not black and white.  A mature, bright 16-year-old doesn't need 24/7 supervision.  If you want to go do something with her father, great - make sure there's food in the house and go on a date.  Or vice versa - if you would like the house to yourselves, give her some money for a movie and tell her to get lost for a few hours.

That can be done without making her live somewhere or with someone she's not comfortable with.

I agree and like I said, if say there was abuse or neglect, there would be no question in my mind that I'd be a full time parent regardless. I just really value the break from the kids. It HELPS my relationship with them.

But is she not alienating herself here? Do I enable that? Don't we preach that PA is the practice of discouraging the relationship between the child and the other parent?

She actually thinks the boyfriend is fine - what she WANTS is alone time with her mom.

I feel like she's "punishing" her mom here. Look at the reasons she gave and the assessment she made. It's not "I'm really uncomfortable with living with another boyfriend" - it's "All you do is take and take and take and he's going to get sick of it and kick us out eventually".

Is she being reasonable?

~DG

[Matt]

It's not black and white.  A mature, bright 16-year-old doesn't need 24/7 supervision.  If you want to go do something with her father, great - make sure there's food in the house and go on a date.  Or vice versa - if you would like the house to yourselves, give her some money for a movie and tell her to get lost for a few hours.

That can be done without making her live somewhere or with someone she's not comfortable with.

I agree and like I said, if say there was abuse or neglect, there would be no question in my mind that I'd be a full time parent regardless. I just really value the break from the kids. It HELPS my relationship with them.

But is she not alienating herself here? She thinks the boyfriend is fine - what she WANTS is alone time with her mom.

I feel like she's "punishing" her mom here. Look at the reasons she gave and the assessment she made. It's not "I'm really uncomfortable with living with another boyfriend" - it's "All you do is take and take and take and he's going to get sick of it and kick us out eventually".

Is she being reasonable?

~DG

I don't know, and it could be important for you to talk this through with her, as you would talk it through with a friend, or one of us here, to help her see her own role, and her choices;  if she is "punishing" her mom for not spending enough time with her, rather than making a balanced, sensible choice, you might be able to help her see that, and grow up a little.  Even a very mature 16-year-old is still a kid... .

I just wouldn't do that in the context of "You may not live here."  I would do it in the context of, "You can stay here as much as you want - we love having you and if that's what you believe is best we'll support it 100%.  Now let's talk about the situation with your mom - what's really going on there and what's the best way for you to handle that... . ?"

(Of course you know I come from a basic view that kids spending time with someone who has BPD or another psych disorder, and who hasn't been in effective treatment for quite a while, usually isn't in their interest.  I think that's the top issue here - more time with healthy adults and less time with less healthy adults.  And making her own choices, and being supported to do so, usually... . )

[DreamGirl]

I think part of her maturity and well roundedness is because she has a disordered mom.

And I like that dialogue. It's not that I just don't want her here. It really isn't.

I just think it needs to be a collective decision based on logic/emotion and not just her emotional response of "I'm not going over there".

There has to be a solution within all of that.

[Free One]

I think one thing to keep in mind is where a teenager is at developmentally. It is developmentally normal for a teenager to think the world revolves around them, that they are indestructible, they want more independence and they are very much trying to find their own identity, separate from their parents.

In my mind, the normal development and needs of a teenager are in complete opposition to having a BPD parent, because the self-centeredness is so similar. The difference is you have a 16 year old who is supposed to be experiencing this as she develops, and an adult who is self centered because she is disordered. You may find your SD struggling more at the moment because of this. Her healthy and normal narcissistic needs aren't being met by her mother (not that they probably ever have been), but now that SD is at a new developmental stage, she may be struggling more than before with figuring this out and dealing with her mother. Each new level of development our kids reach, means facing that struggle of figuring out their r/s with a disordered parent again.

DG - I think you are doing a great job, and we know you love your kids. We all need breaks sometimes. The concern I'm seeing is that we want to see your SD feeling validated about her frustration with the process.

Is there any possibility her reluctance is or can be related to the boyfriend and that maybe he makes her feel uncomfortable or has mistreated her, but she doesn't know how to voice that?

[Matt]

I think part of her maturity and well roundedness is because she has a disordered mom.

I think that's true of my D16 and S15 too.  I actively encourage that - put more stuff on them all the time, to let them grow up just a little faster and be just a little more in charge of their own lives.  And for the last few years, that has increasingly included their schedule - which house they will be in when - not without discussion, but as much as possible, I try to let them take the lead and not be passive in the decision-making.  Giving them as many tools as possible, and also reasonable expectations;  once in a while, one of them will push back - "I don't know, you're the parent - you decide!" - and then I step up.  But it's rare - usually they grow into the added responsbility and I think it serves them well.

Along the lines of what Free One is saying, one thing I'm wondering is what the real reason is for D16 wanting to stay with you guys all the time.  It may be exactly what she says - and probably you should assume that til she says otherwise.  But it also may be that she is smart enough to recognize that it would be better to spend all her time in a more-or-less healthy home, so she can put her energy into all that other stuff - school, sports, etc. - without the drama of going back and forth, and dealing with two difficult adults much of the time.  If that is her underlying reasoning - though she hasn't stated it clearly that way yet - it would be a shame if her good judgment was road-blocked for any reason... .

[NorthernGirl]

Hi DreamGirl. You asked ''What would you do?" DH went through this with SS23 when he was about 16.

DH told SS23 that the divorce agreement said he needed to be EOW at his mom's and that he needed to see her to continue to have a relationship with her. SS23 had always been his mom's All Black child. I don't think DH realized how sick his ex was at the time so he would strongly encourage his sons to be with their mom. I think SS23 knew that being with her EOW wasn't helping either of them have a better relationship. SS23 has always seemed mature for his age, so I agree with your comment:

I think part of her maturity and well roundedness is because she has a disordered mom.

SS23 was the one who figured out how to manage it. He would sleep at his mom's on "her weekends" (usually just on the Saturday night) so he could say he had stayed with her, but he was an active teenager so was out and about most of his waking hours. Or he would just come to DH's house and hang out with friends, etc. or he would go to DH's to do his homework "because all my stuff is at Dad's." I'm not sure if his mom ever figured this out or even cared. She got child support for officially having the other two most of the time, and that seemed to be her big concern.

When SS18 and SS21 wanted to spend more time at DH's, she raged and raged. Especially SS21, who has always been her All Good child. SS18 was supposed to be EOW with DH, but DH had him about 50% of the time. When DH tried to make this official so we could have a schedule we could live with, she raged because she didn't want to loose child support. Then when DH got 50/50, she sent him to live with us almost full-time. She was only ever concerned with not having SS21 with her -- and she has that now as he returned from his latest treatment program and is now strongly enmeshed with her.

SS23 still maintains a relationship with his mom, despite hardly living with her for the last 10 years. And I think one reason he has been able to do that, is that he does things on his terms, and he wasn't forced to go to her home when he didn't want to do that. He is able to manage occasional visits with her, and has made it clear he will leave if she rages. So I think having only a little contact with her as a teenager helped him set good boundaries.

Just my thoughts.

And I think it's great that your DH wants to have weekends with his wife! Just make sure you have date nights, especially on the weekends she is with you.

[Pidge]

The wording I like is along the lines of "This is your home, not trying to kick you out. AND I want you to have a relationship with your mom. It's important for you to keep that relationship. You aren't a little kid anymore, you are old enough to work these things out with your mom, but your dad and I can help if you if you need. What would you like to see happen?"

This opens the way for conversations about what boundaries the kids want from the point of view of the big picture, maintaining a relationship with both parents.

"I'm not going."

"How would you like to maintain your relationship with mom?"

"I don't."

"I know, but feelings change, and not seeing your mom ever is probably not ideal for you. We don't have to decide today though, why don't we talk about it later."

There are lots of ways to maintain a relationship, and it might give SD some breathing room if she doesn't feel like custody is about who owns her for which weekend but about giving her the opportunity to know and love both her parents. If she's anything like our stubborn teenagers, she'll come around quicker to wanting to see mom if she isn't backed into a corner.

[Pidge]

BTW- I think our SS21 did much the same as Northergirl's SS23. He was quite angry with mom, he was typically the identified problem in the family, added on top I suspect he knew mom hadn't treated dad well, even though the adults tried to keep it away from the kids.

He was driving when they divorced, and he would live with dad, and go to mom's on "her" weekends, reluctantly. But he would either be busy with activities or hide out in his room doing homework or working on his projects & hobbies. It sounded like they never saw him, he interacted as little as possible.

Now, he seems to have the healthiest relationship with mom, he gets along with her and doesn't really let her stuff affect him. SD16 and especially SD23 are more enmeshed.

One time they were all with us, we were going to watch a new DVD everyone was excited about, and mom was guilt tripping them to come see her. (It was mother's day, but we had just gotten back into town from an out of state family wedding, and the kids had planned with mom to have "mother's day" the next weekend so they could have a full day with brunch and so on.)

SD23 was pushing for them to at least stop by mom's house and then come back, maybe, unless mom really wanted them to stay there.

SD16 was kept saying, that isn't the plan. The plan is we are going to go do that thing next weekend. We shouldn't have to change the plan.

They went back and forth on this for a while.

At one point SS21 looked up from his laptop and said, I'm not going. Too much messing around.

SD23 finally gave in to majority opinion, but it was clear it was quite scary for her to risk mom feeling abandoned.

[DreamGirl]

I like that dialogue, Pidge!  

The hubs is adamant - she "needs" to go to her mom's new home. Even if for just Saturday (and Saturday night).

I think part of it stems from when the girls were little and mom withheld them (constantly) before the court order was in place - all in the name of "kids don't want to come to your house". He won't enable that and I think he feels like SD16 is bailing before she's put forth an effort to deal with it. I can't say that he isn't right. Or that he isn't wrong. If I'm honest? I think Mama just doesn't care either way... . or she doesn't have what it takes to care - because it's pretty painful to have your daughter not want to see you anymore.  :'(

*I* feel like SD16 should at least try. That would basically be 2 days a month.

She loves her Mama. Her mama loves her the only way she knows how.

I also feel such empathy for my SD - I was estranged from my father for 13 years and then dealt with a lot of what she's going thru as he was dying from cancer. I don't recommend that path. Not to anyone.

We sat with Mama at my middle SD's graduation (from 8th grade) yesterday and she let me know that the BF is going on their trip this upcoming week. The hubs didn't have the heart to tell SD16 (who was very vocal about him not going) and figured that she'd find out soon enough (they leave tomorrow morning).

We'll see. Maybe it will be good for all of them. I have to be honest that the guy really does seem OK. Maybe SD will be taking a stronger stance - being that mom told her that it was "going to be just us" (her and the girls).

I keep repeating the mantra "I can't fix this for them, they have to be able to figure it out".

But like all of you pointed out, at least I don't have to worry about enmeshment.  

[Pidge]

If SD complies, and goes over there, it probably won't be as bad as she thinks. I'm with you, a couple of days a month shouldn't be a huge deal (unless of course there is abuse etc.)

If she flat out refuses, does dad have a plan? I've never had much luck getting my own teen girls to do something when they dig in their heels.

I find being a stepmom really hard, because I care very much about the outcome, but am not the one who makes the final choices.

[ForeverDad]

That said, I also feel that a more "validating" kind of conversation is in order.  Partly because she is old enough that if she thinks it through without resisting you guys, she will probably come to the same conclusion you have.

Another thing I have found really works when working with teens is to give them a responsibility.  Engage them in figuring out the problem.  Have her write up what the idea plan would be, if she had to spend some time with mom to make this work.  Or ask if she could write a letter to mom explaining what she wants.  Partly, this makes her do some of the work, partly doing some of the work moves her from kid disagreeing with parents to responsible person solving problem.

One last thought... . if she just does not go, what will happen?  Will her mom go to court?  Will she be upset and make it harder on the other kids?  What is the real danger/risk here that prevents you from just letting SD16 live with you all the time?

I've heard it often said, once the children can drive, it's easier for them to vote with their feet.

As children grow closer to adulthood they will seek more and more independence or expanding decision-making.  I see SD16 setting a boundary, as in, "I won't be a party to this, mother's latest choice in her latest relationship cycles, I can't/won't go through this again."  That has to be included or addressed somehow in seeking an equitable solution for the next year or two.  Also, in a few years you're likely to have similar inclinations with one or both of the younger siblings.

Along the lines of what Free One is saying, one thing I'm wondering is what the real reason is for D16 wanting to stay with you guys all the time.  It may be exactly what she says - and probably you should assume that til she says otherwise.  But it also may be that she is smart enough to recognize that it would be better to spend all her time in a more-or-less healthy home, so she can put her energy into all that other stuff - school, sports, etc. - without the drama of going back and forth, and dealing with two difficult adults much of the time.  If that is her underlying reasoning - though she hasn't stated it clearly that way yet - it would be a shame if her good judgment was road-blocked for any reason... .

While there is a court order, generally the closer a child gets to adulthood, the less 'enforceable' an order is.

[ennie]

I know this is way later, but how is this going?  I will look at your latest posts, DG.  And I wanted to reiterate that i just really think it is important to work towards the idea that no one's needs trump anyone else's needs.  That you and DH get what you need, and your SD gets what she needs.  That the real issue is figuring out just what that is, not sacrificing one person for another!  To me, "prioritizing" children over adults is just a false dichotomy and a negotiation failure.  When someone is 2, you cannot explain that right now mommy needs some quiet time, so can we postpone lunch for 15 minutes since we are an hour early?  When you are 16, you can get that SM and dad needs some alone time, and that you are still part of a loving home.  If no one asks that you get that, you are likely to grow up as an extra selfish person, in my opinion!  Just like if your parents made no effort to communicate that they get that YOU feel strongly about not seeing your mentally ill mom as often as the parenting plan requires.  Problem solving how to deal with these feelings and needs is something that needs all three of you as partners, not adversaries.  I think you and DH are right on to be aware of your own needs and take care to see that they are met rather than being angry that they are not---avoid the Karpman triangle! 

[DreamGirl]

I know this is way later, but how is this going?  

Sorry for MY late response.

So, on Father's Day my beautiful 16yo stepdaughter wrote her Dad a letter thanking him for everything he has done and continues to do for her. In that letter she stated that she could not express how much it has meant to her that she has been able to stay with us [the majority of the time]. "I'm less stressed and my stomach never hurts anymore. You've allowed me to be a kid where with mom, I have to be the adult."  

So thru my tears after reading her letter, I told my husband "screw it, she can stay whenever she wants".

I mean, I have their entire adulthood to spend alone time with my husband. Her 1 1/2 page letter made me realize that she is just trying to manage her life in the best way possible. Her sisters are far more resilient then her when it comes to certain aspects of their mama (moving a lot, different boyfriends, not paying rent or other bills). Their coping skills lead them to be better at managing this kind of stuff.

So I took her to lunch and wanted to make sure that she understood that it was never about her Dad and I NOT WANTING her there but about her Dad and I WANTING a little husband/wife time - and that we just had grown accustomed to doing that when they all went to their moms. I also explained that we could still do that even if she lived with us, just like nuclear families do. She was very happy. She also expressed that she and her mom get along so much better when they spend smaller amounts of time together.

I'm proud of her for being able to express herself. I'm proud of her mom for letting her stay with us. I'm proud of of my husband and myself for showing her that she's important to us along with our marriage... . and that compromising is OK. Like ennie said everyone deserves to get their needs met without having to completely self-sacrafice.

Thank you, ennie. I'm so glad to have you here to give me advice on this stuff.

Thank you everyone.  

[Matt]

Sounds like a really good solution.