Taking a time out

[Chosen]

Please take a look at this conversation:

H: You're selfish/ disrespectful/ never cared for me/ unloving/ _____

Me: (try to validate, ask him to explain) You're saying you don't feel loved.  I want you to feel loved.  Can you tell me what makes you feel loved?

H: (doesn't make much sense, or talks about things in the past)  You obviously don't love me.

Me: (tries to tell him I care)

H: You don't.  You're just selfish/ disrespectful/ hit__

Me: (suggest calming down) I do care about your feelings and I am not dropping this conversation.  However, we're both not in the best state to talk, why don't we cool down a bit then discuss it?

H: (always escalates) So it's all you, you, you!  When you don't want a conversation you just shut me out!  ... .

This type of conversation happens every time he is dysregulated and can go on for days.  In the past I would eventually break down and apologise and agree to him.  But I will do this no more.  The problem is, if I try to physically leave the room/ house, he may get violent, or if not, it will definitely escalate.  It's not that I'm afraid, but it just doesn't seem helpful as it won't help him calm himself down.

Do you think it’s ok to execute a time out while I’m still with him?  Grateful if you could look at this imaginary conversation below and give suggestions to what I could say:

Me: This conversation isn’t going anywhere.  I do want to understand your feelings but we’re going round in circles.  I will no longer respond.

H: (attacks, accuses me of shutting him out)…

Me: I cannot change your opinion about me, and there is nothing more to respond to now.

H: (likely attacking me for being selfish because I don’t care what he thinks about me and don’t try to fix my faults and repent my sins).

Me: (stays silent)

Is that even ok?  Is that rude for me to say?... . I have no idea…

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[Rockylove]

One night when my bf was totally dysregulated, we had one of the most interesting discussions... . because I just shut up and listened.  I asked him several times not to be judgmental and if he called me names it didn't enhance our relationship, but I stayed put and just let him say whatever he wanted to say without much comment.  It was very enlightening (at about 5am) because he actually shared some things about his way distant past that I may have never known.   It gave me insight as to where all the pain and anguish came from.  I'm not saying that you should sit there and be abused, but some times it helps just to sit and listen because at some point, the anger shifts and the pain is revealed (at least in our case it has happened that way)  and this has happened on more than one occasion.  Granted, he pulled away a few days later each time, but I accept that.  He let himself be known.  He was vulnerable and then needed to cover his tracks to appear strong again.  It's just a thought.

[Chosen]

The problem in conversations with my dysregulated H is:

- he doesn't allow you not to respond. 

- everything he says is directed at ME, and never about anything else.  All his pains are caused by ME.  So if I don't respond or apologise, I don't care.

- his aim is not to be heard, but to get an apology from me for the things I supposedly did wrong.  Anything else is considered "doing things my own way" and "blocking him".

If there was a middle ground I would be willing to take.  If he allows me to stay silent while he rambles on I'm ok with that too, most of the stuff he says no longer stays in my mind.  He has said them way too many times for them to have any effect on me (good? bad?  I don't know.).  But it's how he probes and probes for apologies that is not ok.  I am no longer willing to apology for things I didn't cause... . but he doesn't know I didn't cause them.

[zaqsert]

Hi Chosen,

Me: This conversation isn’t going anywhere.  I do want to understand your feelings but we’re going round in circles.  I will no longer respond.

Picky point, perhaps, but I would probably drop the first sentence and add some reassurance.  Something like:

Chosen: I do want to understand your feelings but we're going around in circles right now.  I love you.  I am going to leave this conversation, and I would be glad to pick it back up when we can do so calmly.

An important part about boundaries in general and this one in particular is that you can only control what you do, and he can only control what he does.  You can allow yourself to do what he wants you to do (continue engaging), but that would be your choice.  By enforcing the boundary, you choose to "put down the ball" and stop playing.  This is your choice to make, not his to make for you.

I can absolutely relate to this:

- he doesn't allow you not to respond. 

But it is important for you to know that only you can control what you do.  He can try all sorts of things to try to persuade you to respond.  Ultimately, whether you respond or not is your choice.  Once you have chosen (sorry, I couldn't help myself!) not to respond, remind yourself that you are entirely within your right not to respond, and do your best to stick with it.  Physically remove yourself from the room if you need to.  Tell him you love him and that you will be back in 1 hour (or whatever you choose).  Then come back in 1 hour so that at least he sees you there.

When I started enforcing my boundary of not being raged at, earlier this year, my uBPDw then went through quite an extinction burst.  The environment at home felt so toxic for a few weeks.  Walking away from rages/accusations and not taking the bait (as often as I could) was really draining.  I got to a point when I did not know if I could continue to put up with it.

And then she started to get a bit better.  She raged less often.  The rages became shorter.  She thanked me for helping her with things -- ironic since I was actually helping less, probably more of a cognitive distortion.  The rages are still there, but the bad periods tend to last up to a few days at a time rather than weeks on end.

It was tough at first.  Then, the more I enforced the boundary, the more it felt normal and natural.  It even helped to boost my own self-esteem because I realized that I do have control over reducing my own exposure to verbal abuse.

So... . once you are prepared to enforce the boundary and stop responding to his attempts to bait you back into the argument, be prepared for an extinction burst from your husband.  It will feel uncomfortable at best.  You mentioned the possibility that he might get violent.  Ahead of time, be sure to prepare your own plan to keep yourself safe, and then follow the plan if you need to.

Please know that we are here to support you through this.  Keep posting.



zaqsert

[Chosen]

zaqsert,

Thanks for the suggestion.  You're right.  Possible reassuring what I do is trying to help the marriage is useful, even though he definitely won't see it that way at the moment.

Actually, I have tried to stop conversations by refusing to respond (to abusive language) before.  It used to be lots of swear words.  Now he throws less of these in my face, but of course the content is still blaming and accusatory.  So I suppose it works.  You're right.  I should just convey the boundary to him and stick to it.  He will continue to blame me or call me selfish or whatever, but that's his choice to think of me that way, and I am not trying to change that.

[Murbay]

I can completely empathise with you chosen and understand your frustrations.

The very last contact I have with my ex wife prior to going NC 2 weeks ago, was identical in every way to your conversation. I have tried every approach possible and just as you found, it all leads back to wanting an apology, even for things that happened 3 years ago.

The moment you point out it's in the past, suddenly you are the one living in the past and keep raising it because they have moved on. It is soo frustrating.

I often got the selfish/disrespectful/don't make me feel loved speech and if I tried to say anything, it then became about me and I was now a narcissist.

The day I decided I needed to take care of me and sort myself out from this mess, created one of the biggest arguments because apparently that needed to be discussed and done on her time frame too. Because I chose to do that for myself, it was narcissistic because I didn't include her. What I did instead was told her, she was more than welcome to join me whenever she felt like coming on the journey but that it was entirely down to her.

I was guilty in many of these arguments of being backed into a corner and snapping back. I could never walk away from the ex wife because she would follow and just escalate into a full blown rage. zaqsert, the night I laid down the abuse boundaries is the night that ended the marriage. She decided divorce papers to be signed the following morning and that I was to leave the country the day after. So I did  

Chosen, it's a difficult one because whatever you say is going to incite a response, but you need to start putting down the boundaries and refusing to accept that kind of treatment. It's very difficult and very frustrating but it has to be done for your own health.

[zaqsert]

He will continue to blame me or call me selfish or whatever, but that's his choice to think of me that way, and I am not trying to change that.

Exactly!  This was a lesson that took me some time to learn and to have it sink in.  Now that it finally did sink in, it makes it easier for me to stop responding / stop taking the bait because I know I will not be able to change my wife's mind.  Only she can.

I also used to expend massive amounts of energy trying to stick up for myself, most of which involved trying to change her mind about what she thought of me.  But of course I have no control over this.  So now I have more energy to devote to things that are more helpful and productive, for myself, my daughter, my wife, our family, etc.

zaqsert, the night I laid down the abuse boundaries is the night that ended the marriage. She decided divorce papers to be signed the following morning and that I was to leave the country the day after. So I did 

Murbay, that sounds quite a bit stronger than the extinction burst that I experienced.  I'm sorry to hear, although I am glad to see that you seem to be ok with it (or so I think).

[Chosen]

Murbay, it sucks that so many of us here these "BPD scripts" repeatedly, right?

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that I cannot control what uBPDh does or not does.  If I stand up for myself (in a rational way), and he takes it to be his exiting cue, then it's his choice.  Because for the past few years (even when we were dating), I've learnt that doing everything he wants (at that moment) does not a smoother relationship make.  If anything, it makes him take my lack of boundaries for granted.

No matter what the result is, and I hope he stays (but I've let go of the outcome)... . setting a boundary is a healthy thing to do and it's time I start taking care of myself (I have been, slowly).

[Murbay]

Zaqsert, believe me, 2 weeks NC and I am really struggling. Missing my wife and children so much but it is what it is. The more that time passes, I see things a little more clearly and I have a great therapist helping me through it too. It is what it is and I can't change that, I left in the hope that it would be the one thing that pushed her to the point she looks at herself to make the changes. I doubt it and so does my Therapist because she also displays all the signs of NPD too.

Again though Chosen, zaqsert is completely right in the sense of those names will still come but use that energy towards something else. You are fortunate in the sense that you are aware of the issues beforehand. I wasn't aware until after so my reactions to those very same things were different.

You have plenty of tools at your disposal and the hardest part is knowing that these outbursts are wanting and needing validation. Validate the emotions as much as you can but don't respond to the accusations.

[Chosen]

I'm not too good at validation, still much to learn, yet many of these times he isn't asking for validation but approval and apologies.  Validating only brings more attack, and he keeps pushing "you're not saying sorry".  My C advised me not to get sucked into his details (the point of saying sorry or not) but it is difficult.

My C also suggested me to use an "I" statement in taking a time out, "I want to listen to you but I'm way too stressed/ tired/ not fit to talk now.  Let's talk hit_."  He won't like it, but he can't argue with whether I'm fit to talk or not (the more I'm not fit to talk, the more he wants, I think).  So I just gotta keep repeating until he gives up... .

[Murbay]

I guess it depends on the person Chosen.

I know when I have used the "I'm too stressed/tired to talk right now, lets talk in the morning" I've been hit with the selfish, narcissist and always when I want to talk but never when she wanted to talk statements.

It's a difficult situation to get right because you know it's always going to be the wrong time.

[zaqsert]

Zaqsert, believe me, 2 weeks NC and I am really struggling. Missing my wife and children so much but it is what it is. The more that time passes, I see things a little more clearly and I have a great therapist helping me through it too.

Murbay, I'm sorry you've been going through this.  I'm glad you have your therapist to work with and hope you are able to do what you need for yourself.