indifference or spite?

[GRosetti]

Hi,

I am new to posting on the main boards, but have been reading for many weeks now.  I am so appreciative of everything I've learned by being here and am hoping to get some help.

If an expwBPD does something exceedingly cruel after a breakup, is it more likely based on an attempt to be spiteful or is it simply self-absorption\indifference due to the nature of the disorder.  Neither feels particularly good and I wonder if they are both intended to illicit a response from me.  I have very limited contact with my ex... . it's always initiated by her and to do with logistics of the breakup.  This contact is always unpleasant and am always left feeling abused once again and lured\baited.

This past week she has done something that is unthinkable to me.   I don't wish to go into specifics, but suffice to say she used something deeply personal to me (and what I had been holding on to as something good about our r/s) in a way that feels incredibly cruel.  Was it spite with intent or simply callousness?  I don't know.

I'm trying not to "comprehend" how she could do something this horrific logically, as I know there is no healthy logic in people with this disorder.  However, it hurts terribly and I guess I'm just trying to find a way to cope.  In many ways I feel the strength and progress I have made over the past few weeks has been taken from me.  It's also apparent to me that I am not as emotionally strong as I had hoped and have a long way to go.

[tailspin]

GR  

My ex used private details of my childhood against me.  He seemed to relish doing so and it hurt me deeply; he mistook (intentionally or otherwise) my pain for anger and the battle would begin.  

I think this is part of the manipulation tactics they use to gain the upper hand and, ultimately, control over us.  Misery loves company.  I've also thought this was a demolition tactic because controlling the demise of our relationship is a better alternative then having the rug pulled out from underneath them.  

This happened from a place of desperation and fear on your ex's part and the result was emotional abuse to you.  I'm sorry you experienced this; you deserve so much more.

tailspin

[bpdspell]

Yes. BPD's can be very spiteful and hurtful. They are living in a vortex of pain, frustration, bitterness, resentment, anxiety, loneliness, rage and anger. As the saying goes... . misery loves company. The specialize in projecting their anger... . even in the bitter end. It's not personal. They have very poor boundaries, cannot be trusted and will violate what you believed was private. It's all a part of their entitled twisted logic and narcissism.

[GRosetti]

Thanks for your kind words tailspin!  I'm having a tough time reconciling these types of actions (this being the worst thus far) and my compassion for her illness.  I wanted so much to be able to look back at the kinder times with fondness and not anger... . now that's gone too.  I am troubled by both the escalation and level of destruction.  She is either upping the ante in provoking a response from me, or she is bent on completely destroying anything good that we shared in our r/s.  Either way it feels terrible.  I know the only things to do is remain disengaged and work on protecting myself.  Seems hard to do at the moment.  Your kind words are MUCH appreciated!

Thanks to you as well BPDspell!  Your handle is so appropriate as I feel like the last remnants for the spell I've been under has dissipated with this last act.  I'm not sure I'll ever really understand how a person can treat someone in this manner even with the level of suffering she endures.

[schwing]

Hi GRosetti and 

If an expwBPD does something exceedingly cruel after a breakup, is it more likely based on an attempt to be spiteful or is it simply self-absorption\indifference due to the nature of the disorder.  Neither feels particularly good and I wonder if they are both intended to illicit a response from me.  I have very limited contact with my ex... . it's always initiated by her and to do with logistics of the breakup.  This contact is always unpleasant and am always left feeling abused once again and lured\baited.

My understanding is that during the entirety of our relationship with our BPD loved ones, they experienced a disordered fear of abandonment.  And this disordered fear is particularly triggered by their feelings of intimacy and familiarity towards us.  So at the beginning of these relationships, their disordered feelings are manageable and easily hidden.  However, as the relationship develops, and as their feelings of intimacy and familiarity increases, so does their disordered fear.  And they may still choose to hide these feelings from us, until they can no longer.

And I think it is in reaction to these disordered feelings, that they are motivated to hurt us.  Because from their perspective, they are only hurting us back.  From their perspective, throughout the relationship, they had to manage (poorly) this mounting gut feeling, that we intend to leave them.  And they would beg and plead for us not to ever leave them, and we would tell them that we'd never think of doing so.  But their feelings spoke to them a very different story.  And they swallowed their fear.  And planned for that contingency.  Until they could not handle it any more.  And then they would leave us first, in order to avoid that (imagined) abandonment.  And they'd probably do it in a way to punish us for all those months (or years) of fear that we would up and leave them.

And rarely would it cross their mind, that their fear is not based on reality, but is a product of a disorder.

This past week she has done something that is unthinkable to me.   I don't wish to go into specifics, but suffice to say she used something deeply personal to me (and what I had been holding on to as something good about our r/s) in a way that feels incredibly cruel.  Was it spite with intent or simply callousness?  I don't know.

I would say that she acted out of spite.  She was upset at you for making her feel like you were going to leave her any day.  Never mind that it was not you who made her feel this way, it was her disorder.

I'm trying not to "comprehend" how she could do something this horrific logically, as I know there is no healthy logic in people with this disorder.  However, it hurts terribly and I guess I'm just trying to find a way to cope.  In many ways I feel the strength and progress I have made over the past few weeks has been taken from me.  It's also apparent to me that I am not as emotionally strong as I had hoped and have a long way to go.

I think this disorder is comprehensible.  It is just difficult to empathize with, because in many ways, they think and feel differently from non-disordered people.

You are in the right place.

Best wishes, Schwing

[TonyK]

[quote author=schwing link=topic=202377.msg12261964#msg12261964

My understanding is that during the entirety of our relationship with our BPD loved ones, they experienced a disordered fear of abandonment.  And this disordered fear is particularly triggered by their feelings of intimacy and familiarity towards us.  So at the beginning of these relationships, their disordered feelings are manageable and easily hidden.  However, as the relationship develops, and as their feelings of intimacy and familiarity increases, so does their disordered fear.  And they may still choose to hide these feelings from us, until they can no longer.

And I think it is in reaction to these disordered feelings, that they are motivated to hurt us.  Because from their perspective, they are only hurting us back.  From their perspective, throughout the relationship, they had to manage (poorly) this mounting gut feeling, that we intend to leave them.  And they would beg and plead for us not to ever leave them, and we would tell them that we'd never think of doing so.  But their feelings spoke to them a very different story.  And they swallowed their fear.  And planned for that contingency.  Until they could not handle it any more.  And then they would leave us first, in order to avoid that (imagined) abandonment.  And they'd probably do it in a way to punish us for all those months (or years) of fear that we would up and leave them.

And rarely would it cross their mind, that their fear is not based on reality, but is a product of a disorder.[/quote]
This is the most excelent and comprehensible description of BPD I've ever read so far. Congratulations and thank you so very much for this, Schwing. I appreciated it deeply.

[tailspin]

GR,

You are a compassionate soul and this is a remarkable quality especially faced with what you've had to endure.  I found it easier to remove myself from the BPD cobweb by not separating the person from the illness; that is, it was easier for me to comprehend what was happening if I saw a man who was mentally ill instead of seeing someone I loved who also had a mental illness.  This was difficult to do but a necessary step in my healing.  It allowed me to stop trying to save him from himself.  You cannot love him into mental health.

Eventually, I was able to differentiate the two, and doing so allowed me to cherish the wonderful times we shared.  You will also get to this place.  But for now, continue to protect and detach, and please let us know how you're doing.  You are not alone.


tailspin

[GRosetti]

Thank you schwing!  You're insight into this and all the other posts you respond to has been invaluable.  I will admit, it does illicit strong feelings of being more understanding and wanting to help her through this illness.  But I realize these are my own demons to slay.  Often I feel like the disorder itself is the monster under which everyone suffers... . pwBPD included.  I can't tell you how many times following her abusive behavior she asked me to never leave her.  This last act feels like a facet of that... . almost like giving me no other choice but to turn away so her expectations\fears of being abandoned would be fulfilled.  Again, this doesn't feel very good... . but I'll have to figure a way to be ok with it.

Thanks again tailspin!  I don't relish the idea of being stuck in a place of anger and hostility.  It never even occurred to me to separate the two perceptions.  I think the idea of not being able to love someone into their mental health is something I'm going to have to repeat to myself over and over again.  Your advice and related story really give me hope that I'll be able to look back at all this one day and remember something sweet!  Thank you for that.

[Angelnme]

Yes. BPD's can be very spiteful and hurtful. They are living in a vortex of pain, frustration, bitterness, resentment, anxiety, loneliness, rage and anger. As the saying goes... . misery loves company. The specialize in projecting their anger... . even in the bitter end. It's not personal. They have very poor boundaries, cannot be trusted and will violate what you believed was private. It's all a part of their entitled twisted logic and narcissism.

Wow I couldn't have said it better. So dead on accurate.

[charred]

They specialize in projecting their anger... . even in the bitter end. It's not personal. They have very poor boundaries, cannot be trusted and will violate what you believed was private. It's all a part of their entitled twisted logic and narcissism.

I could put my exBPDgf's picture next to your quote... . truer words were never said.

[Nearlybroken]

In the months before our split my expwBPD was unbelieveably spiteful  ,cruel and nasty.Some of the things he said took my breath away they were so hurtful.I never fought back but I would become remarkably upset by them.He would then heap more misery on me bybeing totally indirrerent to my reacion... . there were times when he actually smiled as he was watching me crumble... . He went beyond having no empathy for me... . I am sure he planned what he was going to say and took great pleasure not only in saying it but then mocking my hurt feelings.Of course now we have split it has just got worse... . not only am I painted black at every turn (which isolates me), I have to deal with his abusive twisted thought process when we meet (which we have to as there is a house involved).It's a joy.

[laelle]

Hi GRosetti and  

If an expwBPD does something exceedingly cruel after a breakup, is it more likely based on an attempt to be spiteful or is it simply self-absorption\indifference due to the nature of the disorder.  Neither feels particularly good and I wonder if they are both intended to illicit a response from me.  I have very limited contact with my ex... .  it's always initiated by her and to do with logistics of the breakup.  This contact is always unpleasant and am always left feeling abused once again and lured\baited.

My understanding is that during the entirety of our relationship with our BPD loved ones, they experienced a disordered fear of abandonment.  And this disordered fear is particularly triggered by their feelings of intimacy and familiarity towards us.  So at the beginning of these relationships, their disordered feelings are manageable and easily hidden.  However, as the relationship develops, and as their feelings of intimacy and familiarity increases, so does their disordered fear.  And they may still choose to hide these feelings from us, until they can no longer.

And I think it is in reaction to these disordered feelings, that they are motivated to hurt us.  Because from their perspective, they are only hurting us back.  From their perspective, throughout the relationship, they had to manage (poorly) this mounting gut feeling, that we intend to leave them.  And they would beg and plead for us not to ever leave them, and we would tell them that we'd never think of doing so.  But their feelings spoke to them a very different story.  And they swallowed their fear.  And planned for that contingency.  Until they could not handle it any more.  And then they would leave us first, in order to avoid that (imagined) abandonment.  And they'd probably do it in a way to punish us for all those months (or years) of fear that we would up and leave them.

And rarely would it cross their mind, that their fear is not based on reality, but is a product of a disorder.

This past week she has done something that is unthinkable to me.   I don't wish to go into specifics, but suffice to say she used something deeply personal to me (and what I had been holding on to as something good about our r/s) in a way that feels incredibly cruel.  Was it spite with intent or simply callousness?  I don't know.

I would say that she acted out of spite.  She was upset at you for making her feel like you were going to leave her any day.  Never mind that it was not you who made her feel this way, it was her disorder.

I'm trying not to "comprehend" how she could do something this horrific logically, as I know there is no healthy logic in people with this disorder.  However, it hurts terribly and I guess I'm just trying to find a way to cope.  In many ways I feel the strength and progress I have made over the past few weeks has been taken from me.  It's also apparent to me that I am not as emotionally strong as I had hoped and have a long way to go.

I think this disorder is comprehensible.  It is just difficult to empathize with, because in many ways, they think and feel differently from non-disordered people.

You are in the right place.

Best wishes, Schwing

I agree completely what your saying here Schwing.

Even while in my relationship every now and then my ex would have to "get me back" for the emotional distress I made him feel for having to "deal with me."

for example... . I didnt realize that I was hard of hearing and he had to suffer repeating things until I finally was able to get my hearing aids.

After that he intentionally made me repeat myself several times when speaking.  He did this for a while until one day he bragged that he did it on purpose because he wanted me to know how "he" felt having to repeat himself so much.

No empathy whatsoever for my hearing impairment.  Just general meanness.

[babyducks]

GR  

My ex used private details of my childhood against me.  He seemed to relish doing so and it hurt me deeply; he mistook (intentionally or otherwise) my pain for anger and the battle would begin.  

I think this is part of the manipulation tactics they use to gain the upper hand and, ultimately, control over us.  Misery loves company.  I've also thought this was a demolition tactic because controlling the demise of our relationship is a better alternative then having the rug pulled out from underneath them.  

tailspin

thanks for this one.  it truly hit home for me, especially the part about mistaking pain for anger.  Literally dozens of times I said to my EX I am not angry I am hurt and she would always reply, "no you are angry".

some times it is just so very helpful to see my own experience expressed so eloquently in some one else's words.

[bb12]

great question Grosetti

and Schwing's post about the way they think throughout the entire r/ship is pretty wonderful

this has been the lasting question for me too: was it deliberate and designed to maim? And this, I think, is where some of the cluster B disorders find their delineation. For I think pwNPD (Narcissism) have the deliberate cruel streak at the end as they protect their fractured false self with something that goes beyond devaluation and discard to something more loaded with harmful intent. So perhaps do a little bit of reading on NPD also.

I think my ex hid his feelings of terror (my potential abandonment of him) the entire way through the r/ship. When he went on to abandon me and got in first, I could tell he still needed me and was in great pain. He replaced me immediately but wouldn't let me go completely, until he was at an advanced enough stage with my replacement to dig the boot into me and use some very intimate things against me. The neediness I went on to display was not met with the same empathy and care that I showed him when he needed me more. It was used for sport and the cruelty can still baffle me.

Knowing that we need to stop being 'understanding' driven and move to 'acceptance' helped me a lot. For we will never understand someone else's mind... . disordered or not. When that microscope is turned back on ourselves and the reasons we chose them, stayed, and the reasons we stay tied to them is where we must deliberately decided to focus.

Welcome to these boards. They are a Godsend

BB12

[GRosetti]

I have been struggling with this for about a week now.  My initial feelings were bewilderment and anger, but both quickly passed into pain and sadness.  I've never been hurt so deeply before and feel pretty ill-equipped at times to handle it.  I can't remember living in a state of fear like this at any point in my life... . fear of the things she's done, the things she is capable of doing.  Clearly, my mind, body, and spirit are all telling me how dangerous this situation is for me.

I think in many ways, what I've been learning recently about the disorder has been making it too easy for me to be overly "understanding" of her behaviors (in the past and especially now).  It's made it too easy to put my own health and safety second (or last)... . something I obviously need to improve, especially at a trying time like this.  I haven't been very good at that it seems.  I'm trying to find a level of compassion for the way she suffers, and then leave it at that.  Holding on to the anger just makes me feel ugly inside... . and that isn't helping me.

After spending this past week dwelling on this, I've come to two conclusions.  First, YES, I firmly believe what she has done was cruel, manipulative, and despicable... . all designed to hurt me, keep me off-center, and keep me hooked. I found myself trying to be understanding the why's, but in the end, her behavior is\was simply awful... . period.  Second, it doesn't really matter anymore as long as I understand the truth about this relationship.  I am just another casualty of this disorder.  Maimed for sure, but surviving.   

A dear friend of mine thought I need to remember that the things that are so personal and meaningful for me are and were not to her.  This fact doesn't excuse cruelty in any way, but it illustrates that she does not have the capacity to see good things in the same way that I do.  And because of this, we most likely never "shared" these moments\memories in a truthful way.  And maybe it's holding on to this belief that we did has been the most painful and hardest to release.

One week ago today, I cried like a child in my office at work.  I felt like she had "taken" from me everything that was good from the relationship, making all of my pain and suffering pointless.  But, I feel better today and have confidence that I'll feel even better tomorrow.  I am starting to believe that she hasn't "taken" anything that I haven't "given" to her.  I have my own life and issues to contend with and there is no amount of contemplation of hers that will make me healthier.  Big talk... . but truly understanding this is what I'm working towards.  Just have to find ways to deal with all the bumps along the way.

[GRosetti]

... . and thank you all for all your support!  Much love!

[tailspin]

for babyducks,

Our ex's spend their entire life denying their emotional pain, so it's no surprise they deny ours as well.  Every defense mechanism they use is a form of mental gymnastics to avoid the elephant in the room... . their mental illness.  To acknowledge their own emotional pain would be counterproductive to their own survival and cause them to free-fall into psychosis.

Anger masks pain, so denying our pain and replacing it with anger is an acceptable substitute.  They understand anger.  But the thought of being "hurt" is to be avoided at all costs. 

My ex saw me as an extension of himself, so to acknowledge that he had "hurt" me would be to acknowledge he had been "hurt" himself.  This was simply not an option.

tailspin

[bb12]

Grosetti - I promise you it does get better.

In the early stages of the break-up, your mind and body are reeling from the cognitive dissonance: how could someone love me one moment and be so cruel the next? And at the cellular level all of the physical cues linked to fight or flight are highly engaged. The peptides are in over-drive.

You already see the condition for what it is. It may feel like you 'understand' too much and that it is to your own detriment, but I promise you that when the physical symptoms abate, this same ability to comprehend will help you.

I am 18 months out and mainly on these boards now to help others where I can. But I also still have many questions as my recovery and relapses come in waves.

Be patient with yourself for this is mind-bending stuff and goes against everything we thought was true of ourselves and the world.

There is no shame in crying at work and feeling destroyed. There is no rush in our recovery. No time frame. So don't watch the clock or compare. But DO as much exploring of yourself as possible... . your family of origin; beliefs about self; your ability to receive and be in a reciprocal r/ship; your emotional maturity and choices you've made.

There is a rainbow I promise you. I can feel better than I ever thought possible at times. And those times are increasingly frequent

BB12

[charred]

Grosetti... . its true it does get better.

I am about 13 months out from the breakup and have been pretty happy most the time lately, despite work issues and what not. Once in a while I found I had bad days... . really bad ones, but once I accepted the break up and really understood what trying to make it work with a pwBPD would be like long term... . (hell on earth... . more of what I already went through)... . and understood more about BPD, it became easier to understand why I fell for her, why it hurt so much and why I needed to move on, despite having strong feelings for her.

If you are having a rough time... . take some precautions, have a support network (I had my sister around, stayed at her place a few times so she could talk me down when I was faltering in my resolve, or considering something dumb)... . got rid of firearms and booze, just to make it that much less likely I would do something I shouldn't.

Also I saw a T and started doing mindfulness exercises, and they made more difference in my stress level than anything, as much of the pain was ruminating over past and feeling bad about how my future wasn't going to be with her... . instead I got firmly planted in the NOW, and lost the anxiety.

Good luck, its a tough road, but it gets better.