Do they realize they are lying?

[cal644]

Second post today - but I know my stbex is lying and not being honest.  I've seen that soo much since being painted black.  The funny part is she has always said I've been 100% honest with you (which is complete BS).  I got to thinking - does she really see herself as being honest or does she know she's lying?

[leftbehind]

Wow, I would really like to know the answer to this one.  My gut says yes they know, but that they go with whatever makes their life easier in the moment. It's part of their survival strategy.  I just uncovered a bunch of lies my ex told me this week.  It hurts, but if there's one thing I can't stand it's a liar.  So it makes it even clearer to me that I need to continue NC.

I'm interested in hearing what other people have experienced around this topic.  Lying sucks

[laelle]

I think maybe their lies are inconsequential to their truth.  Its true because they believe either it is true, the basic jist of it is true, or there is reasoning to play it off as true.

Keeps them "good" in their own eyes.

Either way, they know how to twist a lie into the truth at lightning speed.

[bewildered2]

they absolutely know that they are lying.

they lie quickly and automatically. no hesitation. and they say anything at that moment in time to suit their position, to cover their tracks, to look good.

they are pathological when it comes to lying. and you can not believe a single thing they say.

that is what this form of mental illness is all about... . sick... . but that's the way it is... . move on.

b2 

[Octoberfest]

When I was with my dBPDex and I suspected a particular instance of cheating, she denied it and came up with a cover story that I bought like a sucker.

She went to a concert with her ex (guy before me) who she had been friends with for 8 years before they dated.  He had tickets and some mutual friends went with, so I figured it was safe.  We had been fighting that weekend and the concert was in a town an hour away.  That night I get a text from her of a picture of her and the ex kissing with the caption "6 months to now... . I'm so happy!".  I was of course furious and called her to find out what in the world was going on.  She answers and says "oh you didnt get the extra picture? I tried sending you a picture of that and one of us saying like 'then' and now'.  Also, I was dancing with him (they became friends because they were both dancers) and he dropped me mid move because his gf showed up that he didnt tell me he had, what a jerk".  The next day I see other pictures on facebook of that night and her and the ex are wearing the same clothes in that picture as they are in the one she sent me of them kissing.  I confront her about it and she says "oh he only has one flannel and I happened to be wearing the same one... . "

And I bought that.

4 months later and lots of cheating later, after we have broken up (really about 4 days ago) I ask her randomly, "so... . that time that happened, what really happened was you were involved with him too and sent that picture to me of you two kissing purposefully to spite me and leave me, but right after you did it came out he has a girlfriend, so then you scrambled to create a lie and snatch me back so you wouldnt be alone right?" and she replied "Yes, Octoberfest. That is exactly what happened".

So she knew she was lying.  She admitted it.  At the time though, she did whatever she needed to to not be alone.

On a plus note, finding out that she was cheating with him too rounded it out so that she was cheating on me our entire relationship.  With no gaps to speak of.  And it is what finally got me to give up on "us being able to work it out one day if she worked on herself" and start NC.  

Yeah, it does really hurt... . To feel as though someone is so completely yours, to have them tell you that, and then find out there was this entire other malicious side you never would have imagined existed.

I feel like hit

[laelle]

I remember one time I bought something for my ex on credit, but asked him to pay me back.  We were living in different countries at that time and he didnt have a credit card as he had had some trouble with his.  

After about a week he never paid me.  I asked him about it.  He said he would do it right then... . put on his shoes, jacket and told me to hold on while he went to put it in the mail.  I never got it.  Must have been the mail?  Possible, but any other promise he made he never kept either so bleh... .

[leftbehind]

To feel as though someone is so completely yours, to have them tell you that, and then find out there was this entire other malicious side you never would have imagined existed.

My experience exactly.

[DeltaAlpha]

As I was told by my T,

A pwBPD's perspective is:

Facts are feelings and

Feelings are facts . .   

Truth?/Lies?   eh, all relative on how one "feels"

and yes, being so deceived, mislead, and used this way SUCKS!

[Murbay]

It was something I saw quite a lot of with my exBPDw and something that made me feel very uncomfortable.

There were the little lies to boost her ego, such as a doctor asking how she wanted to proceed with her back injury. That turned into the doctor said she was amazing to have coped with such an injury, the slightest wrong turn could paralyse her, he had never seen anyone so brave and that he wanted to operate to give her her life back. What he actually said was that he preferred her to be on bedrest because that would sort it out but that the choice was hers. It was embarassing when she would turn to me to validate her stories and made me feel guilty for doing so.

Then there were the lies to me, I heard the whole "I have been 100% honest with you" too. The few times I called her on the lies, I was met with a rage that I actually felt fearful for my own safety over. Once she calmed down, she would tell me that she did do what I had brought up, but that it was either my own fault or that she was doing it for me. Her favourite saying in all of this was "But in all fairness, had you not done/said this, I wouldn't have been in a position to do what I did"

Finally, there were the dangerous lies. The ones where she made false allegations to authorities out of fits of anger. The following day, she would write to them and explain it had been a mistake. 2 years in to the immigration paperwork going through, she wrote to them and told them I was dangerous and she was scared for her and the children. I wasn't even in the country at the time and all I had done was put the phone down on her rather than be dragged into an argument over something stupid. The following day, she retracted her letter but immigration had already withdrew the application. When they wrote to tell us, she was angry because of how incompetent they had been and actually blamed them for the whole process.

So yes, it does appear they know they are lying but it's like a hot potato in the sense that once it's been highlighted, as long as the blame can fall elsewhere, they don't have to feel the shame.

[Clearmind]

No - distorted reality. Facts don't equal feelings.

[Angelnme]

I've learned that most of us relatively "healthy-minded" people (let's face it: we weren't completely healthy to get involved with a pwBPD) think first, and then feel about it. a pwBPD seems to feel first, then, if need be, distort the facts to fit how they feel. (please, Moderators, correct me if I'm wrong.)

My stbx uBPDbf told me my engagement ring was "on order". We had placed (and lost!) deposits on site, musician, and photographer, and I still have the dress... . turns out there was no ring. Devastating.

Do they know they are lying? My guess is sometimes yes and sometimes no. Yes if it's obvious, like covering up obvious behaviors. He recently cheated on me and said he didn't (until I presented evidence)... . No if they have distorted their truth. I hope I made sense. I am new to this forum and to the world of BPD so im not an expert, I'm  just offering opinion and support. I feel your pain and wish you the best.

[laelle]

In my personal experience, my ex would say whatever he had to say to keep me providing for his needs.  To keep his world under his control. 

It was a matter of life or death to him.

If you were going to die without something, would you not lie to get it?  Maybe you might feel bad about it, but wouldnt you do it anyway?

I had promises of rings and marriage.  He was all for the idea, but never prepared to ante up.  As long as it was some time in the future after his problems were all taken

care of he was fine with it.  After one problem was taken care of, he would just create another. 

And around and around we went.  I am so glad im out of that now.

[Validation78]

The behaviors attached to BPD are part of who pwBPD are... . Hence the label personality disorder. The way any of us behave makes us who we are. It is natural to think, act, react in the ways we do. We just do it, which is why changing what is part of us is so difficult. Mentally healthy people want to make positive changes when they acknowledge the need. Disordered people, cannot acknowledge that something they are, or do isn't right, so they keep on doing it. This is also why PDs are very difficult to treat.

Best wishes,

Val78

[caughtnreleased]

Mine who I would say was pretty low functioning told me that he lies to everyone all the time, and didn't know who he was inside. He told me this at a point where we barely knew each other, so I guess it was easier for him to open up. I think they know deep down.  Some won't admit it to themselves though, even less to people they are close to.

[bewildered2]

my ex-BPDgf simply admitted to being a liar, and then said "everybody lies, and everybody cheats, so what's the problem".

they have an answer for everything.

you'll never beat a borderline, unless you leave.

b2

[causticdork]

Mine was a compulsive liar, but she definitely knew when she was lying.  I would ask her about things I was suspicious of and she would act like I was crazy and lie right to my face repeatedly.  Then I'd find proof of the lie, tell her I knew she lied, and suddenly she'd go into explain mode about how she lied to protect me or because she was sick (she was a drug addict on top of being BPD, so I got to deal with two traits that's cause compulsive lying) or because she didn't want me to think less of her or look at her different.   It always came down to, "I lied because I love you so much" which we both knew was complete garbage.

[flynavy]

I can only speak for my experience... . yes she knew... . I caught her so many times over simple things... . here's a sampling from my short story... .

•   Looking at pictures and I said is that one of your boyfriends (I knew it was)…she said that is my son’s friend father who went quading with us one day.  The next time we saw the same picture it turned out to be her ex fiancés brother.  Guess what…it was her boyfriend.

•   Found picture of kids painted in black on manila paper.  Signed by her ex boyfriend.  She says…No…that was the kid who watched my kids at the daycare.

•   Who built that nice hen house.  She says…My son’s girlfriends father who was off of work.  No…it was her current boyfriend.

•   Son says Mom guess who I ran into today…he gives name of ex fiancé…he was very good to you Mom.  She says …My son is referring to one of his old boyfriends not my ex fiancé.

•   Found congratulations on engagement to her current boyfriend from sister.  She says he asked but she said no.  Why the card….she says…oh you know how crazy my sister is…she sends cards all the time.  Called her sister…she lied for her and so did her so-called best friend when called.  When I confronted her…she came unglued again.  I said I was leaving…she said….”no, please don’t go…if you go I will never see you again…I know it…then she said she would stalk me if I left her.

•   She told me to meet her for wine at a restaurant close to my house.  She said she had a nurse’s dinner there.  I get there early and talk to bartender and he is unaware of any meeting going on that night.  I think she met one of the drug reps there for dinner…maybe a regular…oh…this is the same night her boyfriend comes to the house.  Three guys in one night.

•   She had her kids lie for her.  Asked her son who built hen house.  The kid lives there all the time…he says…Oh…I don’t know.

•   The biggest lie is when I found all her phone calls to her current/always boyfriend she says... . she was trying to call it off every day, for longer than when she talked to me on the phone, the love of her life.  She was engaged this guy! 

•   Never had sex with the current boyfriend the whole time they were engaged…I guess she thought I just got off of the turnip truck!

•   Her and father did concrete sidewalk…nope…her family had to bail her out at the last minute…why lie about this?

•   Was only with 7 men her entire life including me….funny….that’s what she told her second husband…it was in a letter he wrote after their demise.  This was 18 years ago!

•   Valtroxin she takes is for cold sores…look it up and see why it is prescribed.

[TonyK]

It is natural to think, act, react in the ways we do. We just do it, which is why changing what is part of us is so difficult.

Mentally healthy people want to make positive changes when they acknowledge the need. Disordered people, cannot acknowledge that something they are, or do isn't right, so they keep on doing it.

This is also why PDs are very difficult to treat.

Excellent comments. Thank you very much, Val.

[GlennT]

The really sad part is that no matter how broken these people may be, they always feel that there will be someone out there willing to believe them, save them, be completely accepting of all their faults, etc., and they're right.

[laelle]

Well, I wish that someone is able to deal with my ex. As much as I am angry at him, there is still a part of me that wants him to be happy.

That was part of the problem in our relationship, no matter what I did, he was NEVER happy.  It brought me down with him.

[ZigofZag]

I have been away from the board for a while. Got back with my wife and three months ago separated again. This was because of her final destructive lie. Her lies started when we first got together six years ago. They included; her brother had died, she was attacked at work (this led to a case in Crown Court), she was attacked in a taxi, she was attacked in a caravan, she was attacked by her father, she was attacked by her brother (before he died), and now she has said she was attacked by me and our tiny little dog. Problem is she said this to a health visitor who correctly informed social services. Our six month old daughter is now under a child protection plan and I am still struggling to prove that a) I am safe to be a father to our child & b) my innocence.

The crazy part is that it is me who has been the victim in a violent relationship. I am disabled and she made the most of that when attacking me. Even after she made the allegations against me she lied to me. She told me that out daughter was staying with the in-laws whilst she adapted to her (my wifes) new medication. I only found out that social services were involved when I turned up at the in-laws saying that I would take little one back with me and give up my job if needed. My wife was living a lie every day of our relationship. I broke all contact with her once I knew of the allegations. Just so hurtful and could not be further from the truth. Recently we did meet. I asked why she had said such blatant lies (not phrased that way). Her reply was, as it has been for all the other lies……… “It’s not me it’s my illness” or she says “that’s just the way I saw it”. There are lists of accused people and lists of places she does not return to due to her lies.

[confetti]

Mine was a crazy liar and took it so DEEP. It added to the guilt pool for him I'm sure.

One of them stuck out, was outrageous and actually very ill-minded.

- Had problems facing the fact that he was emotionally weak to something said to him by a family member

- Enjoyed black magic

- Took his love or whatever for black magic and used it: "I'm having a hard time right now because it turns out someone in my family murdered so and so because he didn't believe in black magic... . my family is awful"

- Sister apparently had panic attack at nights because these family members used her during rituals and would rape her

- Withholded sex to keep that lie alive, said blah blah how could I be insensitive, he's having thoughts about his sister because she told him about it

Little did he know, his mother called me at least twice every week just to talk and would be ricocheting every single lie (not purposefully) by telling me what was actually going on with his sister/family.

I was with him almost 6 months after that.

Every single lie became more and more obvious and it became hard when there was no intention of detaching. It also was really weird how defensive and crazy he remained over his sister, not knowing I knew that one lie.

Pulling the cover off of a lie feels like lifting a rock with lots of buggies n stuff under it @hit@ didn't really wanna know

Oh yeah, it was a good lie because I almost can't tell if it was another girl and not his sister. Withholding was most likely out of guilt. Oh~~ well~~

[qwaszx]

my friend once told me she had a dog that ran away, and she never found it.

next time I heard that story she said that they did find the dog, but a little girl had fallen in love with it and asked if she could keep the dog. so my friend told me she said she let her keep the dog.

next time it was that she had never found the dog again.

im pretty sure they just don't want to face reality. she was hurt the dog ran away, she would have liked to have found the dog, she would have like to have given it away to a little girl. she would like to know that the dogs taken care of now, so she doesn't feel so badly about having lost the dog. The truth hurts, and they have an even harder time facing it... .

[charred]

Do they realize they are lying?

When you first learn to drive you have to think of every little tiny action, and can barely remember the steps, sometimes you get them out of order, grind gears or forget to look both ways, in time you get better and better at it and after a few years it does't require conscious thought.

Do they realize they are lying?... . They are so good at it that it is second nature, they often have great memories of tiny details... . as they know how important keeping the details of what they said to different people straight is.

They are in the flow when it comes to lying, its so practiced it takes little thought... . the key thing is when you realize and KEEP IN MIND THAT THEY ARE ARE LYING MUCH OF THE TIME TO YOU... . and accept it for what it is,... . completely unacceptable.

[bewildered2]

a psychologist i know who specializes in treating people with personality disorders says that unless something that a borderline tells them can be independently verified, then the professional will not believe anything that the borderline has told them.

says it all.

and yes, the more lies a person tells, the better they get at it.

but as more and more time with the disordered person goes by, the more it just doesn't add up.

my favorite from when i was back in the crazy land of a borderline? it's a doozy:

ex-BPDgf has just come back from a two week vacation to visit a girlfriend... . she comes straight to my place from the airport... . we hop into bed and get started... . then she says "oh, it's sore down there"... . i look at her , kinda startled, and she says, "it's sore from lack of use".

ha!

months later, when she was trying to hurt me, she told me that she had spent several days with a guy while she had been away, and then had another fling with a second guy on the same holiday... . but she had forgotten telling me the "sore from lack of use" excuse.

so yes, they lie, but trust your instinct. if it doesnt add up then there's a reason.

b2



   

[ZigofZag]

The lies are so dangerous though, as mentioned in previous posts, they are so convincing. I did not attend friends weddings because of the stories she had told me about them (& how they had threesomes to abuse her), a guy was dragged through Crown Court, alleged sexual assault (later turned to rape claim), a taxi driver was pulled in by the Police (another alleged sexual assault) and now here I am, accused of strangling her!. This has led to complete relationship breakdown (enough was enough for me) and I am viewed as a wife beater despite police reports of her attacks on me. The fact that I am physically incapable of the attack as described (wheelchair user) has passed by the authorities as she is just so convincing. They know how to “play” the professionals, act the victim and draw them in.  If my relationship with my baby daughter was not affected by her lies then I would applaud her performances. They must believe and live the lies, if not then it is Oscar winning acting.

[goldylamont]

of course they know they're lying. they just don't care.

they don't care because they blame you are acting as low and scummy as they. or sometimes, they just don't care because they lack integrity.

[Chazz]

of course they know they're lying. they just don't care.

they don't care because they blame you are acting as low and scummy as they. or sometimes, they just don't care because they lack integrity.

Yes, and yes... . They will say, and do, anything and everything that works for them at the time.

My favorite lie was when my Ex blamed me for almost losing custody of her son because we had, had an argument her son NEVER heard. Of course, she never mentioned that she had been arrested for DV after hitting her son's father. Or, that she flunked a Family Court ordered forensic assessment. Nope, none of that entered her mind. I just looked her in the eye and said: "Yep, and I had a hand in the assassinations of Archduke Ferdinand and Sophia, too.

The worst part is that BPDs actually convince themselves there's some truth to their lies. Disordered thinking is a one way trip to La La Land.