The only thing that "works"

[sjm7411]

Learning about this disorder has been the explanation for my husband's behavior and a real eye-opener.  He was abused as a child and lost both parents tragically as well, so I am positive that this is what he has because of the behaviors he exhibits.  Up until yesterday, I didn't plan on telling him that I've been researching BPD, because I knew he'd deny it and it would cause a new set of problems for me.  But the day before yesterday, he got angry with me that I forgot my son was having friends over after school (I was accused of "covering it up" and I knew it was the start of a long night of relentless drama.  His rage carried over to the next day and I received a barrage of nasty emails with all kinds of accusations, which continued into the night and ruined our plans for the evening.  I tried all kinds of suggestions - standing up for myself, walking away, the "it seems that you feel hit" statements ... . nothing worked, he just... . wouldn't... . stop.  Finally I did what I've done a few times in the past - told him this relationship just isn't working out, and maybe it's best if we go our separate ways.  Immediately, he snapped out of it and started apologizing profusely and tried to fix everything.  It is the only thing that stops him and gives me some relief from the mental abuse.  But of course his fear of abandonment kicks in when I say that, and I end up wishing I had just kept my mouth shut.  I will spend the next few days being asked to prove that I do in fact love him and I'm not leaving (a difficult thing to convince to someone I wish I was divorced from).  I will spend the next few months/years having it thrown in my face.  The relief I get is temporary, and then I'm kicking myself for blurting it out because it puts me back at square one.  I try so hard not to get upset but he is just relentless.  On top of that, I told him I think he has BPD.  I'm sure I'll regret that one too.   There doesn't seem to be a method that works with him.  When I walk away, I'm "running away".  When I validate, I feel like I'm telling him it's OK to verbally abuse me and it gets worse.  I'm just so exhausted. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cloudy Days]

I'm amazed that telling him that actually stopped his rage. It usually makes my husband 10x worse if I say anything about leaving. If he tells me to leave I get in the car and start to leave he will say all kinds of thing to prevent me from leaving "empty threats". Anyways, I think what you need to understand is that sometimes you can't say or do anything that will do any good. You need to walk away at that point and let him calm down. When he is in a rage or disassociating, he cannot be reasoned with and they are too far gone for anything you say to do a bit of good. The longer you continue to engage with him while he is like that, the longer it will probably last. My husband refused to accept the BPD diagnoses at first too. We came to a breaking point where I was able to say either you get treatment or I leave (he screwed up badly). I was able to take a set of symptoms and I just asked, do you feel this way, without putting a label on it. He said yes to all 9 so he agreed to the DBT therapy.

I think what you are running into when you try the methods are extinction bursts. He's not going to like it when you walk away so he will probably start throwing a bigger fit. This is normal, look at it like a toddler not getting his way, the toddler will get louder and meaner to get his way. Until he realizes that it isn't working anymore so they stop. It takes some practice and it's really hard to do at first to stick to your guns. But it will make a difference if you keep to it.

I usually save Validation or feeling statements for when my husband is not Raging. They really don't care what you have to say when they are in that state of mind, they just have to calm down. When my husband is in a rage, he has told me that he literally feels like he is outside of himself and that he feels like he has no control, it's almost like a dream but he's watching himself. Then when he snaps out of it, what he did and said is muddled, like a dream.

[sjm7411]

Thank you for the reply, these are great tips.  I definitely think I need to work on disengaging and ignoring some of these behaviors - part of my problem is that I've been thinking I can talk sense into him and get him to hear me, and it's just a vicious circle that goes on and on... . and on.   Now I'm realizing it's a losing battle and my approach needs to change.  I like some of the things I've been reading on here about setting boundaries for myself.  I feel resentful that I married a man who I have to view as a child.  I was married to a man with childlike behaviors in my first marriage too, and after everything I did to get out of that relationship, I'm kicking myself for getting into another one.  But what's done is done, and now I just want the tools to make this work for the long haul.  I don't want to go through another divorce. 

[Cloudy Days]

I think one of the main things that helped me in my relationship with my husband is really looking into myself to see why I was attracted to my husband and his dysfunctional ways. I've learned that I am just about as dysfunctional as he is, that's why I was attracted to him. You say you have been in two relationships with people like this. That says a lot. Have you started digging at all as to pin point why you are attracted to these personality types? I realized I was very Codependent. I catch myself doing the same things that you do, trying to talk sense into my husband. Over and over again even though he isn't even trying to listen. You need to realize that you can't change how he feels about something. No matter how much you try, he's going to feel how he feels. That's why validating works, your not trying to tell him he is wrong, you're telling him that it's ok to feel that way, so he's more likely to drop it. Any time you tell him he is wrong it is going to be counter productive to what you want, because he's just going to stick even harder to what he thinks.

The more I read on this site, the more understanding I get. We have to get out of the habbit of thinking that if we just say or do the right thing they will be ok and come back to normal. You can't change their behavior all you can change is yourself and how you react. Your feelings of resentment are normal. But they are also a sign of Codependency and I think it would help you a lot if you read about it some. It sure opened my eyes. 

[sjm7411]

I have thought long and hard about myself because of the men I've chosen to have relationships with.  I tend to make excuses for people, and to stay with people I shouldn't because I don't want to be "judgmental".  Honestly I think it's a case of 1) being too nice and not wanting to hurt someone's feelings, and 2) feeling like I can "fix" a person who seems broken.  I will do some research on codependency.  I know I have some issues of my own but I've never in my life behaved the way I do now with him, the fights, hiding what's going on to outsiders, feeling like I'm losing my mind... . it makes me feel so ashamed that I married him.  It's hard to validate his feelings when he's demanding that I apologize for things I haven't done that he's conjured up in his mind.  The other day, I tried saying "I can see where that would bother you, in the future I will try not to do that" - and that wasn't good enough.  He wanted an "I'm sorry, I was wrong".  But I wasn't wrong! So back to the gerbil on the wheel.  It lasted ALL DAY.   It's got to stop. 

[allibaba]

I tried all kinds of suggestions - standing up for myself, walking away, the "it seems that you feel hit" statements ... . nothing worked, he just... . wouldn't... . stop. 

I think a lot of us on this board tried and tried and tried the tips and tools for years without any success.  I personally tried to put in place boundaries for almost two years and none of it worked.  About a month ago, I was given some advice that made sense and I followed it.  Maybe it was because I was finally in the right place but immediately I have seen a positive impact in my life.  Here is the post.  Its long and (sorry a lot of the posts are from me)... . but in a nutshell I feel like it is saving my life.  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=200881.0

I think what you are running into when you try the methods are extinction bursts. He's not going to like it when you walk away so he will probably start throwing a bigger fit. This is normal, look at it like a toddler not getting his way, the toddler will get louder and meaner to get his way. Until he realizes that it isn't working anymore so they stop. It takes some practice and it's really hard to do at first to stick to your guns. But it will make a difference if you keep to it.

I usually save Validation or feeling statements for when my husband is not Raging. They really don't care what you have to say when they are in that state of mind, they just have to calm down. When my husband is in a rage, he has told me that he literally feels like he is outside of himself and that he feels like he has no control, it's almost like a dream but he's watching himself. Then when he snaps out of it, what he did and said is muddled, like a dream.

Agreed Cloudy Days!

The more I read on this site, the more understanding I get. We have to get out of the habbit of thinking that if we just say or do the right thing they will be ok and come back to normal. You can't change their behavior all you can change is yourself and how you react. Your feelings of resentment are normal. But they are also a sign of Codependency and I think it would help you a lot if you read about it some. It sure opened my eyes. 

And me too Cloudy Days!  Until I realized that I had contributed so heavily to our current situation I wasn't able to start making the changes that I needed to make in my life.  Don't get me wrong.  I do NOT take responsibility for my husband's behavior but I think that I was dragging him down (doing everything for him, makes excuses, and letting him be abusive) instead of lifting him up (having high standards in our house, letting him feel the consequences of his actions).

Recently since I truly starting working the techniques - he has thanked me for starting to get our lives back on track.  This is a successful professional man, he's smart and he's personable.  I have never mentioned BPD to him but he knew that something was wrong and he immediately felt the positives of the changes I have made.

[Cloudy Days]

Lol... . I'm laughing because I could say the same thing about myself. I don't like hurting peoples feelings either and often go way further than I should to win approval from someone, even if they don't deserve what I'm doing. I've read some things that a lot of us that are with a BPD have these issues but keep them well contained if we are not in a relationship with someone who is BPD. They literally bring out the crazy in us. They are like our kryptonite. I'm not saying it is our fault or even his fault. It's just how our personality's react to each other. I'm going to post a link that I read on here about the Lonely child schema, it's helped me look at myself and Lonely children are attracted to BPD's.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=161524.msg1548181

I also found this article very eye opening too.

www.dailystrength.org/c/Physical_Emotional_Abuse/forum/13391054-lonly-child

[sjm7411]

Allibaba - I am intrigued by this idea of disengaging and creating boundaries for myself.  He will accuse me of being controlling as I try to enforce the boundaries, I can already see that one coming.  It seems like you have hit on something that works for your relationship and I think I will try the same. 

Cloudy Days - that article on the "lonely child", WOW.  That is me.  And kryponite is a perfect description for my relationship.  He does bring out the crazy in me - more than I've ever experienced before. 

It feels hopeless on some level, doesn't it?  Do you still have hope?  Or do we need to get to a point where we don't "hope", we just accept and deal with the cards we've been dealt? 

[NoSocks]

Hi sjm7411. Your experiences mirror my own. Right now my husband and I are waiting to get into  see a Psychiatrist so that (I'm hoping) my H can be referred to the DBT treatment. During this waiting period I try my best to walk away, this seems to keep things a bit more steady. It doesn't work all the time but enough for a bit of relief. With this he seems to come to me later (some times it takes a day, weekend, or a week) and be in a better mood and either come out and tell me he's sorry or if he doesn't and I bring it up he will apologize and we then continue on in a better way. Until the next trigger. I do have to say though that I feel my H is a borderline BPD. From the stories I have read on here, and in the books, my H doesn't or hasn't displayed some of the most extreme behaviors. So I'm not sure where your H sits on the spectrum but I hope this can at some point a technique you can use and that will be helpful.       As for the comment about who we are 'the Non's' that attract this sort of dysfunction, I agree most certainly there are traits in us 'Non's' that go into our being drawn in.  I have said to others for years - if we could make different choices we would, we don't make a choice because we know it's bad for us. I also strongly believe that there is a responsibility and accountability on our part to try and always make better choices for ourselves (and our children if you have them). The rest is really the reality of our life and we continue to do the best we can with the knowledge and energy we have.

[Cloudy Days]

Yes I have hope, but often find myself feeling hopeless a lot of the time too. It's all very confusing and exhausting. I think I am gaining hope too from the fact that my husband is getting treatment. Hopefully we can grow closer rather than grow apart. I think acceptance of what is, is really important though, we can hope all we want but accepting what we cannot fix will help us get to where we need to be. I guess maybe we just start to hope for different things. Small achievements rather than them completely changing their tune. I've been on this site for a year now and things have changed for the better with me and that gives me a lot of hope.

[allibaba]

Allibaba - I am intrigued by this idea of disengaging and creating boundaries for myself.  He will accuse me of being controlling as I try to enforce the boundaries, I can already see that one coming. 

I have been accused of being controlling in the past 

Implementing boundaries properly was weird... . almost like I had hit a magic button.  I have to say that my husband is high functioning but when he's under stress he can be pretty darn awful... . so I was surprised when it actually worked!  CONSISTENCY IS KEY.  If you do it 80% of the time it will be hard.  If you do it 100% of the time - reaction will be quick.  I had to start simple and sit down and come up with very clear guidelines for myself on what I was going to do.  Its too hard under the pressure of the rage to think on my feet.  The other thing that was new for me was telling him why I was leaving (just leaving was viewed as running away).  I tried to keep my statements about me.  "I need to exit this conversation before I say something that I regret." "I am scared with you driving this way.  Please pull over to the side of the road and I will get out."

It feels hopeless on some level, doesn't it?  Do you still have hope?  Or do we need to get to a point where we don't "hope", we just accept and deal with the cards we've been dealt? 

  Before I started this I had basically come to terms with being abused... . that was hopeless. 

Its quite the opposite actually.  When you can detach and love them even when they are being out of control... . then it becomes kind of funny to watch... . and most importantly YOU CAN GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE IN PEACE because the nastiness just doesn't stick.  I am starting to find myself again and my husband notices and loves it.  Once I started to heal myself I guess he naturally followed.  And his behavior is automatically getting better.  He was in a mood this morning... . I put down boundaries and then validated later in the day... . and he actually did the errands that I had asked him to do first thing this morning (I used to try to run our house all by myself).

[sjm7411]

RX - I wish you the best with therapy.  My H says he isn't BP and doesn't need help. I'm not quite sure where he is on the spectrum - he says he isn't suicidal, but he has threatened to hurt himself a few times in the 3 years we've been together, so apparently he has selective memory.  There's no use in trying to convince him otherwise.

Allibaba - good idea on explaining the "why" of leaving".  Otherwise they go into a panic.  I love that you are taking back control of your life and feel some healing and hope.  I think for me, detaching is KEY.  I am looking forward to applying it.  I set a boundary yesterday and I had the opportunity to enforce it already today.  I told him I do not want any more "let's talk about everything that's wrong with the relationship" emails during work hours - it happens too often and it's distracting to my job, a waste of time and energy, and in the past I have put up with it to try to calm him down because I was scared - well, no more.  He tried to start one this morning and I didn't respond.  He send another asking if I got the email, to which I replied, "yes, I got it".  He sent another asking for a reply, and I responded by saying "we agreed not to exchange these types of emails at work anymore".  Then I ignored the email that came after that, and he stopped sending them for the rest of the day.  It felt so good to be able to stand up for myself and have some control over the situation by laying down a boundary for myself that is a very legitimate and important one.  Many of our fights are escalated through emails exchanged throughout the day.  I don't know what type of reaction I'll get when I get home because of it, but I'm feeling pretty strong mentally just from that baby step.  

[allibaba]

My H says he isn't BP and doesn't need help. I'm not quite sure where he is on the spectrum - he says he isn't suicidal, but he has threatened to hurt himself a few times in the 3 years we've been together, so apparently he has selective memory.  There's no use in trying to convince him otherwise.

  Don't worry - I think that all of our spouses have selective memory loss!  Whether they try to hurt themselves physically... . or whether its just emotional... . they all try to hurt themselves in some way or another.  The reason that I say that mine is high functioning is that outside of our house most people would have no idea that there is anything wrong.  He gets to work 1/2 hr before he is supposed to... . everyone who has every worked with him says that he is hard working and personable.  He tends to keep his dysfunctional nature within the walls of our home (though close family members have experienced it too).  Don't worry my requests to get mine into therapy fell on dead ears.  You can change your life without him fixing working on himself at all.   

I love that you are taking back control of your life and feel some healing and hope.  I think for me, detaching is KEY.  I am looking forward to applying it. 

 

Me too.  Once I stopped feeling like a victim it worked wonders... . I try to think of it that my husband is entitled to his bad moods... . I just don't have to subject myself to them.  The key for me is detaching from the bad behavior while still loving him.  It takes me off the roller coaster and allows me to be more stable.  I end up being a better foundation for him in the process.

I set a boundary yesterday and I had the opportunity to enforce it already today.  I told him I do not want any more "let's talk about everything that's wrong with the relationship" emails during work hours - it happens too often and it's distracting to my job, a waste of time and energy, and in the past I have put up with it to try to calm him down because I was scared - well, no more.  He tried to start one this morning and I didn't respond.  He send another asking if I got the email, to which I replied, "yes, I got it".  He sent another asking for a reply, and I responded by saying "we agreed not to exchange these types of emails at work anymore".  Then I ignored the email that came after that, and he stopped sending them for the rest of the day.  It felt so good to be able to stand up for myself and have some control over the situation by laying down a boundary for myself that is a very legitimate and important one.  Many of our fights are escalated through emails exchanged throughout the day.  I don't know what type of reaction I'll get when I get home because of it, but I'm feeling pretty strong mentally just from that baby step.  

         Good for you.  I was scared for my husband too.  Once I realized that being scared was actually making him weak... . I didn't want to do it anymore.  Just a fair forewarning.  He may have an extinction burst (adult temper tantrum).  It was Cloudy Days that taught me that sometimes that tantrum is the sign that you did exactly the right thing!  The second thing I try to remember is when I enforce a boundary... . it is particularly important for me to be loving the next time I see him.  Its hard enough on him that I am not giving him what he wants... . he doesn't need me to be mean or nasty on top of it.  I set aside whatever bad behavior he was showing and I find the place inside of myself where I am really happy to see him at the end of a long day and I make sure to greet him with that.  Sometimes he's still in a mood and my positive greeting isn't well received... . but again its his right to be in a bad mood.  I didn't greet him that way to manipulate him... .   I did it because I love him.  Again congrats on that first baby step.  Its the hardest one to take.

As Grey Kitty told me... . him taking out his stress on you is not good for you and its definitely not good for him. 

[sjm7411]

Some of my family & friends have noticed quirky behaviors in him - some have commented on it, others haven't.  Many people ask me, "did I do something to upset your husband?"  That is a recurring theme.  My father thinks he is possessive and my mother and sister think he teases me too much in a mean manner, which is definitely the case.  He gets so angry if I mention when other people have called him out on his mannerisms and faults. 

It's difficult not to feel like a victim when being verbally abused, but I am going to continue to work on disengaging.  I am often rejected when I try to greet him in a positive way... . it's usually best to let him initiate any physical affection... . he is very funky when he comes home from work.  I've sort of given up on that.