Continuing The Relationship When They Have No Remorse

[BrownEyes]

Hi, I joined this forum a while back, but I haven't posted much because writing things down seems to bring me so much pain.  But I have been reading all the posts and I just find everyone here so knowledgeable, and it really helps hearing how you all deal with things.

I do have a situation that I feel like I am at my wits end with now, and I guess I'm just wondering if anyone here would have some advice on how I could handle it.

I don't know how to continue to interact with mt BPD/DD17 after she has an episode of telling me that she hates me. 

During these episodes, which usually happens after I say no to a request she's made, she will talk about how much she hates me, how she has always hated me and always will, and that even during the times she's nice to me and we're getting along, that she's really just faking it and that she really hates my guts.

It's really painful to hear her say those things.  So when she says them, I tell her that I'm really hurt by her remarks.  And she just shrugs her shoulders and in a very flippant tone states "Well what do you want me to say?  It's the truth."

So those episodes usually end with her leaving to go be with her friends (and I can't physically stop her from this now that she's 17).  And then I avoid her for a few days, hoping at some point for her to apologize for all the nasty things she's said to me.  But the apology or any acknowledgement at all, never comes.

Then after a few days, things return to normal with us interacting with each other as if nothing at all ever happened.  It's crazy making.

And it's really frustrating to never get an acknowledgement or an apology from her.  There's never really any consequences then for her saying those hurtful things.

It all happened again yesterday when I told her no to something, and now I guess I'm sort of at my wits end over it all.  I don't know how to hold her accountable for the things she says, when she doesn't care what she says or how much it hurts.

Telling her how much it hurts me does nothing to her.  Bringing it up the next day with her does nothing to her.  It's like she just gets to say whatever she wants, and then a few days later everything goes back to normal.  It's so frustrating.  I want to hold her accountable for the things she says to me, but I don't know how.

Does any of this sound familiar to anyone, and if so how do you deal with it?  Thank you so much for your help.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

browneyes

This happens a lot in my home and I find it happens the most when my dd15 is in a lot of pain. She want everyone around her to feel that pain so she tries to hurt and project her feelings on to the person she is closest with or just near by. When you look at it that way then it is easier not to be hurt by those words. At those points I actually feel very sorry for her because I know she is struggling with something hard.

I can remember feeling the same way as a teen about my mom... . I can remember not liking her rules or chores etc and I can remember writing in my diary that I hated her... . but really that is a typical teen thing... . I love my mom more than anything and would do anything for her. So this hate thing right now might just be the normal teen thing.

My dd15 and I had a disagreement yesterday about driving lessons... . she was screaming at me in the car telling me to stop yelling at her... . my older daughter was there and told her that she was the one yelling and that I wasn't... . my dd15 like so many pwBPD struggle with their emotions. I think you will find that when she tells you she hates you it is actually herself she hates... . that is pretty sad. So I suggest you read Valerie Porr book overcoming BPD... . it has a lot of help and once you learn better communication skills and truly understand her word won't hurt so much.

We all want the best for our children and sometimes that means not being their friend but being their mother and guiding them through these rough waters... . validating and learning how to deal with the hate etc... . will help.

It is not easy to hear those words and at times I have even questioned if my dd loves me at all but what I realize is that she is doing the best she can with what skills she has now... . when she knows better she will do better.

Is your dd in therapy?

[BrownEyes]

Thank you jellibeans for your words kind of wisdom.  I really appreciate them. 

Yes my BPD/DD17 is in therapy.  She's been in therapy for 3 years.  She isn't honest in therapy and lies to her T all the time, saying everything is fine.  This way her T does not talk about anything that dd is uncomfortable with.

I have spent a lot of time learning better communication and validation skills.  And I've come a long way in that regard. 

I guess I just don't know how to hold her accountable for the things she says to me.  I feel like I'm almost condoning it all if I don't do anything about it.  And is it giving her the wrong idea, thinking that when she gets out in the world, she can just say anything she wants to people wth no consequences whatsoever?

I'm just stuck as to what I could do to motivate her to stop saying those hateful things.

[Vivgood]

Hi and welcome back  

I guess I just don't know how to hold her accountable for the things she says to me.

I'm just stuck as to what I could do to motivate her to stop saying those hateful things.

These things are outside your control. Give yourself permission to let go of that illusion.

She isn't honest in therapy and lies to her T all the time, saying everything is fine.  This way her T does not talk about anything that dd is uncomfortable with.

The last part is spot-on. The 1st part is your judgement. Your "truth" is different from hers. Yours probably (but not necessarily) reflects factual events. Her truth is how she feels in the moment. For all you know, in the therapists office, center of attention and not actively dysregulating, she DOES feel her version of fine. Is this DBT? or CBT? Is there a reason that your DD would need free-flow talk therapy? such as trauma, abuse, FOO issues? I'm just not sure I buy into the idea that talking about your FOO is helpful for people w/o major FOO issues. I think for people with BPD or other brain-based disorders that just exacerbates the behavioral problems and ignores the need for some targeted "reformatting".

I sympathize with the difficulty of all this. 17 was not my DDs best year ever, either (and gods know it wasn't mine ). But here's the thing: Her brain is still developing AND she has a brain disorder. What about that combo would lead you to believe she is capable of rational self-reflection and holding herself accountable?  maturity, consideration, all that great stuff... . thats not on the table right now. Expecting that she will assuage YOUR negative feelings, when she is struggling mightily to simply survive her own, is a sure road to misery! Yours, that is. She has plenty of her own. really, if we as parents cannot hear the occasional "I hate you" from our kids w/o taking it in stride, mmmmm, that's our issue, not theirs. Some of us get it at age 2 when they can't have cookies for breakfast; some of get it at 17 when they can't regulate their overwhelming emotions. Its not about you. Don't make it about you. You need to have better coping skills and better mental/emotional health than she does, even if that feels unfair right now.

That said, even when you are in the Deep Zen and responding only with the purest of mindful validation, you still don't have to put up with abuse, nor should you, that won't help her either. Boundaries and validation are not opposites! Can you work toward a place where you can genuinely SEE and acknowledge with love that her feelings are real and overwhelming? Can you then set a boundary that protects you both? Such as acknowledging her pain/anger and offering to help with managing it and telling her its not safe or healthy for you to listen to repeated words of hatred and violence so you are going to take some alone time. Then take it w/o expectation of anything from her. You are allowed to ditch the kid (safely) and show YOURSELF some love and tenderness! If you keep having to deal with this w/o a substantial break for self-care, you are more likely to find yourself rolling around in your own emotions the way your DD does, its just the natural outcome for repeated exposure to trauma.


vivgood

[qcarolr]

That said, even when you are in the Deep Zen and responding only with the purest of mindful validation, you still don't have to put up with abuse, nor should you, that won't help her either. Boundaries and validation are not opposites! Can you work toward a place where you can genuinely SEE and acknowledge with love that her feelings are real and overwhelming? Can you then set a boundary that protects you both? Such as acknowledging her pain/anger and offering to help with managing it and telling her its not safe or healthy for you to listen to repeated words of hatred and violence so you are going to take some alone time. Then take it w/o expectation of anything from her. You are allowed to ditch the kid (safely) and show YOURSELF some love and tenderness! If you keep having to deal with this w/o a substantial break for self-care, you are more likely to find yourself rolling around in your own emotions the way your DD does, its just the natural outcome for repeated exposure to trauma.

It is so hard to get to this place - it has been for me. Even doing all the reading and discussing of the good tools - self-care, validation, values, and values-based boundaries, offering opportunities and letting go of outcomes... . I too often still get caught up in my DD27's distress and take it in as if it belongs to me. What a heavy and unsolvable burden this is.

I have reached out in the past few months of this deep distress to build a support group for myself - in addtition to awesome friends I have here at bpdfamily.com. I needed some face-to-face time. So have pushed myself to be vulnerable with a few women in my small group at church, have found a counselor just for me who actually is able to get me to shift my focus on what I need and not just what others in my life need -- and how to get my needs satisfied. Well we are working on that little by little. And nuturing my r/s with my dh -- he has been able to step up and take on some tasks in the family that has given me a break. Some of these have been with DD27 - transportation being a big one. DD is the most abusive to me in the car when we are trapped together. And she will not get out when I pull over and ask her to get out.

Who do you have in your daily life to reach out to for support? Is there someone that can help you with validation of YOU?

qcr  

[jellibeans]

Browneyes

I know how you feel but here is what I think... . you can not control what your dd says and that is probably why she says and does the things she does... . I find that a lot of things are a power struggle and trying to reduce that is key. So I am going to tell you not to care what she says... . really ... . I think it is fine to express that you find that hurtful but maybe there is a way to avoid getting to that point where she has the opportunity to tell you that... . if you are having a disagreement and things escalate to that point maybe you should end the discussion before she has the chance to hurt you in that way... . give up on trying to get her to own up to what she has said etc... . when my dd says something terrible to me I know in my heart that she doesn't mean it... . try to believe that of your dd.   

[qcarolr]

jellibeans - this makes so much sense. As I have been able not engage in feeling bad when my DD is ranting at me, and leave the situation, I feel better about myself. She still wants to rant at me when she is in distressed. I am limiting my face to face contact with her. I tend to shut down - get quiet and still and disconnect. Almost to the point of dissociating from the situation. Like putting up protective force field to deflect the painful things she says. She is stopping to tell me that this 'silent treatment' doesn't help her!

Today I actually was able to say to her "If you want me to be present and engaged, you have to stop yelling at me". I was helping her navigate what she needs to do to stay out of jail. The next thing I said was ":)o you want to go to jail or continue your probation." When I dropped her off where she is staying she said thank you to me for helping her today. She has been doing this - ranting and ranting -- I disengage but get done what needs done -- she calms down and shows a little appreciation.

Reading this I realize how hard she is trying. She is so scared ---

qcr  

[BrownEyes]

Thank you all so much for your helpful support.  I truly appreciate it.

It really helps to hear how other people deal with these things, and I will be re-reading your posts and really taking them to heart.

Thank you.

BrownEyes

[mikmik]

Browneyes,

It helps me to remember that the opposite of Love is NOT Hate, it is indifference.  She feels so much as a pwBPD, that she has to lash out, until she gains the skill sets to maintain self control.  My dd19 has articulates that she wishes we could feel as awful as she does so we would understand.  I think your dd's words are just emotional vomit, and you have to hold her head over the toilet (metaphor of course ) till she is done.  In other words, let her know she is entitled to her feelings, and like the others said, when she wants to talk in a calm tone, you are ready and willing.  Maybe tell her you understand she hates you, but that you love her enough for the both of you.  And I agree with the others, that most of us "hated" our parents as teens.  And the hate the BPD person feels is amped up.  She will, in time, with your setting of your personal boundary, learn.  And with pwBPD it seems to take a lot longer for that learning curve.

She does not hate you, she is wounded, and wants you to feel pain as she is. That does not make it easier, just sprinkles some perspective on the situation.

keep posting!

mikmik

[somuchlove]

Browneyes, So glad you are here on this site.  It has been a life savor for me and probably for my BPD dd as well. 

I don't know how many times I have written here the same questions, and ask for help.  What I have learned is invaluable.  I have come to realize it is a process we have to all go through.  There are many things we all have in common but one is doing the best we can for our loved one. 

One thing that has helped me is to let the words flow past me when my dd is so very upset, enraged.  I picture her when this is going on as helpless, crying out for help and needing me.  I have to remember, sometimes it is hard, that she continues to come back to me for help and support.  I have also found that the more I listen, the less I talk and try to call her on what she is saying the more she is able to process and solve her issues.  I don't know how many times I have had her say to me.  Right,  I am not allowed to have feelings, why can't anyone understand how I feel, I must be terrible and selfish,  I am bad, bad bad... . etc etc.    That is such a wake up call for me.  She really just needs to be heard, validated.  Not told it is right or wrong because she feels this way.  Once I do this, then she can process and problem solve.  Not very good sometimes but it helps.  I still, sometimes get very angry and think,  YOU SPOILED Rotten person.  Then I realize she can't help it.  Then she will say thanks for listening or putting up with all her emtions.  Boy am I glad I didn't speak what I was thinking. 

Sometimes, just recently we have been able to get to a place where I can say,  don't go there,  it isn't helping.  In a previous post,I talked how sometimes I can  tell her don't go to the dark side.  She listens to that and will calm down a little,  that is if she feels I have really listened and am validating how she feels for awhile.  I often think I need to put on the darth vader mask when she does this to remind her. 

I guess what I am trying to really say is, lots and lots of reading and being reminded here on this site, has helped me really understand,  if you ever really can, how they funtion, how to look at what they are really trying to say and get past the hurtful words that fly.

I am know expert for sure and needs lots of encouragment and forceably reminded what to do sometimes.       

Good luck.

[griz]

Browneyes:  I so well remember my DD saying such hateful things to me and the pain I would feel.  15-17 was the worst for my DD and it has gotten better.  I don't know if this will help but just this week in our DPB class during the break when just the parents are together with one of the leaders the conversation came up about how impossible they can be at times.  The group leader discussed that during the teenage years that our children feel the same thing as teenagers without BPD but the difference is that their emotions get out of control.  When I think back to my older daughter when she was in high school I often remember that I would tell people that the fact that I breathe seems to annoy her.  But for someone who does not have BPD they can effectively deal with their anger or disappointment in appropriate ways where as teens with BPD don't seem to have the ability YET to do that.  I thought it was interesting that the group leader stressed the work YET.  She went on to explain that hopefully in learning the skills in DBT they can become effective at dealing with their emotions and learn how to difuse them before they get out of control.

The other day DD18.5  and I were driving in the car and she had been texting a friend a few times and he had not answered her.  I just happened to ask her if she had heard from him not knowing this and she told me that she had been texting him and he was not answering her.  She then went on to say that before when this happened she would become completely anxiety ridden thinking things like, did he hate her, did she do something wrong, was he not her friend anymore however now she realizes that she cannot control the situation and maybe he is just sleeping or busy or even if he for no apparent reason has decided not to be her friend anymore that she cannot control that.  She then said to me, "mom, I think in DBT the skill that is helping me the most is Radical Acceptance".  This coming from a kid who two years ago when we tried DBT told me that it was absolute BS and that she was learning nothing and hated it and refused to continue. 

We left DBT only to go back again a few months ago at her request.  I truly believe that one of the things that helps are children the most is just maturity.  Your daughter is only 17, give her sometime and hopefully she will mature and things will seem different to her.  My DD still has a long way to go but I truly believe that they are emotionally a lot younger than their age.

Griz

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[CopinginNY]

A few doctors have told me that my 33 yr. old daughter with BPD is one of the worse cases they've encountered, along with other comormid personality disorders, such as Narcisitic and Histrionic.  Schizoid-affective and Bi-polar have also been mentioned.  She's been abusive and combative since age 14.  I have all the wounds of of a parent that has had to try to keep an ongoing relationship with this gal, despite the bombs that are daily being dropped.  She is currently on Social Security Disability for other reasons (a couple of car accidents and an assault) but she wants to fling my way on a daily basis all of the emotional crap she does not want to deal with.    ALL of her problems are my fault and in her head I'm the worst parent on the face of the earth.  She takes absolutely NO responsibility for ANYTHING, and blames anyone (esp. me) for anything that goes wrong.  She lives with my Dad because she cannot live with me and her father, and she cannot afford to pay the rent even for a room, with costs the way they are.  She's starting drama with her 90 yr. old grandfather, and he's about to go to court to have her evicted from his home.  She's been hospitalized over 8 times and nothing is resolved.  They put her on psych meds and release her.  She goes to a therapist for a few vists and then bombs out.  No one can really deal with her.  She has NO regard for no show dr. appointments.  The time that has been assigned for her by a professional provider is meaningless if she does not want to make the appointment.  She gets prescribed psych meds, perhaps takes them for a bit, and then stops.  The bottom line here is... . SHE HAS NO REMORSE.   FOR ANYTHING.  WITH SOME PBD'S, THEY JUST DON'T HAVE ANY... . REMORSE IS SOMETHING THAT IS JUST ELUSIVE WITH THESE INDIVIDUALS.   MY ONLY ADVICE IS TO "TRY" TO FIND RESOURSES THAT DEAL WITH dbt.  uNFORTUNATELY THE ONLY dbt CENTER WITHIN 50 MILES DOES NOT TAKE HER INSURANCE AND THEREFORE IS UNAVAILABLE.  THIS DISORDER IS THE MOST INCIDIOUS THAT I AM AWARE OF.  I FEEL THERE IS NO HOPE FOR HER AND EVEN LESS FOR ME.   I've been going myself to therapy for 8 years, am on anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds, and although it has helped me from jumping from a bridge, it isn't the fix-all.  The earlier there is professional  intervention, in my opinion, is the best course of action.

[BrownEyes]

Thank you again to all of you.  I truly appreciate the time each of you has taken to respond.

This is all a learning experience for all of us, and I will continue to do everything I can to help my daughter and myself.

Thank you again for such amazing support.

BrownEyes

[Kami]

   Brown eyes, your post sounds very familiar to me and most others on this board, I guess.  My daughter is 19 now, but has the maturity of a 14 year old.  I have decided to break most contact with her as she says how crazy her parents are and that she hates us.  She wants to go to a large city about 150 miles from her and be homeless and a prostitute, because that would be better than living here in this small city with her parents that bring her down all the time. 

   My husband is one of the kindest, most loving and selfless people I have ever met.  I always thought it was wrong of him to give both our girls whatever they wanted and sacrifice us not having much of anything.  If it was affordable he would get things for them.  We have a very modest income, but he loved his girls and indulged too much this way.  I wanted him to say no much more often than he did.

   Yesterday I decided I had enough.  My daughter decided she wanted her name changed, so my husband took her to the courthouse.  It seems none of clerks there knew where they should go to start this process.  It was go here, no, go there, no go back there.  It took forever and my husband went to put more money in the parking metre, where he was greeted with a $50.00 parking ticket.  Now, it's really rare that my husband loses it, but he was so frustrated he tore up the papers.  With those papers was her birth certificate,which he later taped together. 

She became so enraged that I left the house for 10 minutes or so.  When I got back I went to our room and found she had taken a butcher knife and shredded most my husbands clothes up.  Many were ones he had just bought. 

    I decided I won't have such a hard time with her going away.  She will probably find someone to live with for a while.  My health is going downhill fast with all the stress and I think it is better that she is not with us for a while.  My desire is that she realizes that not everything is our fault and that she develops coping skills. 

   Your daughter is just 15 and there is a good chance that she will grow out of much of this.  I wish you well.

[Kami]

   I meant 17.  I hope things get better for you.  It didn't for me.  It's seems to get worse all the time and life has become a living hell.  The fact that your daughter has good spells of being normal is very encouraging.  It hurts terribly to have your kids say they hate you and that's why she does it.  I could be so kind and encouraging and loving to my daughter and it's not hard, because I do love her.  Yet she takes great pleasure out of seeing me break down and cry.  I'm to the point where I'm disapointed to wake up in the morning.  I'm not perfect and I'm not strong.  She destroys me through my love and thinks I deserve it because I brought her into this world and I deserve to suffer for that.

   You sound like a great parent to me and she is lucky to have you.  I'm sure there are a lot of people who just can't wrap their heads around a daughter behaving like that to someone who cares so much. 

   

   I'm sorry I made this post so much about me.  It's probably the only place I have to vent where people will understand.  My friends are always so shocked by my daughter's behavior that I feel embarrassed to bring these things up to them.  They cannot understand her treating my husband and I this way.  I'm glad I have this site.

[Rapt Reader]

Oh BrownEyes and CopinginNY and Kami... .    I am so sorry that you are all dealing with so much pain and turmoil  :'(  I do have a dBPDs36, but he had always directed his anger and rages inside of himself, and not outward to me or his Dad. I really don't know how I would feel if I had to deal with the outbursts and repercussions that you have to deal with... .

Have you read the book: "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder" by Shari Y. Manning, Ph.D.?

Have you checked the Learning Center Message Boards for the Articles, Workshops and Book Reviews? I bet there are educational tools there that could help... . Have you seen any of the Videos available on this site? There are so many subjects to choose from that I'm sure there's something that will hit you as just what you need! But, in the meantime, please know that I'll keep you in my thoughts... . Good luck!  

[qcarolr]

 Yet she takes great pleasure out of seeing me break down and cry.  I'm to the point where I'm disapointed to wake up in the morning.  I'm not perfect and I'm not strong.  She destroys me through my love and thinks I deserve it because I brought her into this world and I deserve to suffer for that.

Kami - your daughter is in such pain, and is directlng it all to you and your dh. Even though it is more than she can hold, you need to protect yourselves from her violence. I agree that she needs to be let go - to be away from your home. Please find ways to take care of yourselves. Making daily decisions out of fear - for your own safety and for your DD's safety -  can only work for a time. Maybe that time is over, and new skills are waiting for you here.

When I am in a place of fear that my DD will hurt me, I cannot access my own intelligence and the many skills and tools I have learned over the past few years. I am stuck. I have to physically seperate from her. Only then can I learn what I need to survive. Only then can I find the courage to change how I think and act to make things better. And it is possible. It takes time. It requires a safer and quieter home.

Be kind to yourself. Be kind with your dh. Do you have a counselor with BPD experience that can help you figure out some boudnaries with your D? That may be a good next step for you. Check out this link on Boundareis: Living our values

https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries .40#lastPost

  You sound like a great parent to me and she is lucky to have you.  I'm sure there are a lot of people who just can't wrap their heads around a daughter behaving like that to someone who cares so much.  

 

  I'm sorry I made this post so much about me.  It's probably the only place I have to vent where people will understand.  My friends are always so shocked by my daughter's behavior that I feel embarrassed to bring these things up to them.  They cannot understand her treating my husband and I this way.  I'm glad I have this site.

Kami - you are a great parent or you would not be here. The bond between a child and the parents is always there, even when we cannot be in the same room together. Sometimes seperation is the best for both. Please keep coming back. We care. We understand. We have been there many times.

Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.

qcr