"final" conversation tonight

[Healing4Ever]

We had our "final" scheduled conversation tonight.  I had put it off until after my exam.

I must admit, I still went into tonight with some small hope that he would say he would work on his r/s issues and want me to wait.

It didn't happen. We did talk about the last few months (I attempted to clear up some misunderstandings - and he seemed to hear them).  He apologized for how his anger and rage must have affected me and said it was from his shame.  That he really needed me to not be angry while he worked on his anger and that was why he needed to leave. (because I finally got angry about his anger/rages/silent treatments and wasn't willing to do our dance of anger anymore).  That he ended things because he felt I couldn't love him while he worked on his stuff.  He cried and talked a bit more about his shame.  I asked how me staying in his anger, unable to communicate my process, supported my healing?  And I said that I had needed him to compromise by finding ways to support my healing while he healed, but he ran and ended things instead.

Uggh.  I'm sad because I miss the parts that worked.  I'm frustrated that the hopes and dreams I had for this r/s seem just out of reach, and that what I say/do is constantly distorted in his mind to match his feelings.  And I'm sad that I still hope things will work out.

He wants to sell the house. He's coming to get the rest of his stuff soon.  He took a bunch of his stuff tonight.  It's like ripping off a bandaid slowly. 

More healing left to do.  I definitely want to figure out my needs and then find someone who fits.  Instead of trying to mold someone into them.   

[Murbay]

Hi Healing4Ever,

It sounds like you at least got a bit of closure for yourself tonight and the feelings you have right now are very valid.

You have hit the nail on the head with what you need to figure out and after getting that bit of closure, you can now step back and take that time to work on yourself and getting you to a healthy place. It is a frustrating position to be in when there were dreams and aspirations tied to the r/s but it doesn't mean you can't move forward and take the dreams you had with you.

Tonight probably gave you an insight into which areas you still need to heal and things will become easier with time. Use this time for you now and when you reach the end of your journey, it will open doors that you may not be able to see right now 

[Octoberfest]

We had our "final" scheduled conversation tonight.  I had put it off until after my exam.

I must admit, I still went into tonight with some small hope that he would say he would work on his r/s issues and want me to wait.

It didn't happen. We did talk about the last few months (I attempted to clear up some misunderstandings - and he seemed to hear them).  He apologized for how his anger and rage must have affected me and said it was from his shame.  That he really needed me to not be angry while he worked on his anger and that was why he needed to leave. (because I finally got angry about his anger/rages/silent treatments and wasn't willing to do our dance of anger anymore).  That he ended things because he felt I couldn't love him while he worked on his stuff.  He cried and talked a bit more about his shame.  I asked how me staying in his anger, unable to communicate my process, supported my healing?  And I said that I had needed him to compromise by finding ways to support my healing while he healed, but he ran and ended things instead.

Uggh.  I'm sad because I miss the parts that worked.  I'm frustrated that the hopes and dreams I had for this r/s seem just out of reach, and that what I say/do is constantly distorted in his mind to match his feelings.  And I'm sad that I still hope things will work out.

He wants to sell the house. He's coming to get the rest of his stuff soon.  He took a bunch of his stuff tonight.  It's like ripping off a bandaid slowly. 

More healing left to do.  I definitely want to figure out my needs and then find someone who fits.  Instead of trying to mold someone into them.   

This is EXCELLENT!

[danley]

Shame, guilt, and fear.

All three things that my ex would constantly talk about having and normally hed get angy over it. Although I tried to give support and explain all three things could be healed and dealt with, he was always very pessimistic. Some days when it bothered him and I'd give a pep talk, he'd sigh with relief and agree that it would get better and he needed to work on himself. For a while I believed he was. But really he wasn't and was sweeping it under the rug and it never went away. It's kinda like having a pink elephant in the room with him. Even tho he tried to ignore it, it was always still there.

The last conversations he talked about his shame, guilt, and fears. And ultimately the trio of feelings won over our relationship. He couldn't bring himself to take steps to making things right. Instead the anxiety from it all grew and grew til he could No longer take it. So instead of fixing it and making it better, he broke up with me because he said he couldn't live with the guilt and shame of what people would think of our relationship. It woukd have been so much easier if he had said he hated me or didn't love me anymore. But for him to chose the easiest way out in which he still wouldn't have to come clean to family and friends was devastating to me. It was such a cowardly act and it made me feel sad that his desire to seek others approval outweighed his love for me.

I don't know WHY your ex can't handle working on the relationship and himself at the same time. But I do know that shame, guilt, and fears are so paralyzing. Maybe he's so consumed by the trio of feelings that he can't think of anything else. Some people don't have the strength or courage to do both. My ex obviously didn't. But perhaps this break could be good for you both? You can do some soul searching while he hopefully truly does work on his anger and shame. I believe the anger Sometimes stems from the shame. They don't know how or don't want to change or accept responsibility.

Im Sorry you are going thru this breakup. I don't know what he has shame about. Was it you, the relationship, or himself?

[Healing4Ever]

He grew up with a manic-depressive father who was VERY, VERY angry most of the time.  He has said that every 2nd word out of his father's mouth for as long as he can remember was a swear word, and he mostly yelled.  The ultimate experience in verbal abuse and abandonment as I can see it.  My understanding, and I think his growing understanding is that his shame stems from this very traumatic upbringing.

And then he has shame from how he has behaved in the r/s.  He is coming to terms with the effects of his anger on me. 

His shame also prevents him from seeing me love him.  So I can't/couldn't win - no matter what, he distorts what I do/say/intend to be not loving, selfish, or whatever suits his purpose.  Even gifts I would give, or obvious nice gestures, would be reinterpreted. Eg - if I was in bed and turned out the light in the bedroom before he was finished in the bathroom, he stomped upstairs and ignored me.  (because he said I didn't want to talk to him anymore).  And he could not be vulnerable and ask for his needs to be met - even when I asked him what they might be.  And then, of course, I would feed his distortions when he would ignore me for days, or shut me down emotionally, or otherwise be angry because I would get frustrated back, I would rationalize why we should be able to compromise, I would try to get him to understand.  And then he had fuel for his beliefs that I didn't love him - this more frustrated behavior of mine would be described as "attacking him", or "too angry", or "not loving". 

And why I would even consider this again - I'm not sure.  Although, I think I equally wanted him back and didn't want him back tonight.  We hugged, and there was a definite reaction in my body of not trusting him, and wanting to keep a safe distance.  (emotionally).  But, as he opened up and was vulnerable and shared a bit of his shame, I yearned for this honesty and vulnerability to be our r/s.  But it wasn't.  And he doesn't want to have this with me now.  Or, more likely, he isn't capable of having this with me now.  Because as soon as I have pain etc., he can't tolerate it and shuts it down.

[Surnia]

Or, more likely, he isn't capable of having this with me now.  Because as soon as I have pain etc., he can't tolerate it and shuts it down.

Quite possible.

I can relate very much with your situation. What I experienced with my exh is similar.

Yes it hurts. 

My approach is to keep in mind that his friendly side needs a "fence" like being divorced. With closure all the anger shame controlling mix would come back again... .

[Healing4Ever]

A postscript to our "final" conversation:

During our final conversation he said that when we separated back in April/May, there was "no negotiation around my (H4E) needs, and he couldn't get his needs met in that situation".  I was thinking about that afterwards, and became frustrated.  So, I let him know that I had (finally) stood up for my needs in a strong way in April/May, but at no point did he stand up and tell me his needs so we could negotiate something that worked for both of us.  At that time, he just appeared to ignore what I said I needed and tried to continue our previous "dance" by ignoring the fights.  Which I guess was his way of trying to get his needs met, without being vulnerable and risking the conversation to talk about them.

Well, as I should have guessed, this post-script conversation did not go well.  He heard me say "I (H4E) did everything right, and if only you had stood up and asked for your needs, we wouldn't be where we are".  What I wanted him to hear was that he had had someone in front of him who loved him enough to negotiate with him even when I was in pain, and I didn't wanted to be blamed for NOT being loving when I wasn't given the chance to show it.  I wanted to clarify what was real for me in that moment, because it is so hard to be blamed for feeling/acting a way that I didn't.

He did say, at one point, that he sees how much his shame clouds his perception, and that he doesn't want to know that I've actually been loving him for the past 6 years and he missed it.  He emphasized that he didn't *FEEL* loved, so for him, that was true.  He believes he wasn't loved by me.

It's so sad. 

[Validation78]

Hi H4E!

Ending a relationship is never a pleasant prospect. I'm sorry to hear that this is a rough time for you. I hope this leads to some closure for you as you process the circumstances in the relationship, and the conversation that tok place last night.

Just an observation though, and this is important. It sounds like a lot of the focus was on his pain. I'm not sure he can really empathize with yours. It seems like when you talk about your pain and anger, it comes back to his pain and anger, and his needs. "He needs you not to be angry". Hummmm... .

If you're anything like me, you'll play this conversation over and over in your mind, wondering if you could have said or done anything to change the outcome. I am an optimist, and always hope for the best outcome in any situation, and hard as this is my friend, maybe this is the best outcome, sad as it is. I get it, I really do. Try to put some thought into using this as a jumping off point to your healing journey. You have some degree of closure, more than some get. Now start thinking about how you can move on, gain momentum on the road to peace!

Best Wishes,

Val78

[patientandclear]

H4E:

You have a lot of insight & understanding about how your H's mind works & how he reacts to things you say in ways totally different from what you intend. I've learned a lot reading this thread.

It seems like his inability to validate your good intentions is causing a lot of pain. As members here have recently reminded me about my own situation, pwBPD are not going to be persuaded that their story about how things went, and why, is wrong. They are very attached to that explanation--that loved ones cannot be trusted, at the core. If that were untrue, as you say, the implications are that they have squandered actual love. That is too terrible to be entertained as a possibility for more than a moment.

Yu have to know your own truth even if he denies it or rejects it.  He won't validate it for you.

[Healing4Ever]

Just an observation though, and this is important. It sounds like a lot of the focus was on his pain. I'm not sure he can really empathize with yours. It seems like when you talk about your pain and anger, it comes back to his pain and anger, and his needs. "He needs you not to be angry". Hummmm... .

Try to put some thought into using this as a jumping off point to your healing journey. You have some degree of closure, more than some get. Now start thinking about how you can move on, gain momentum on the road to peace!

Val78-both excellent points.  My experience of trying to relate to him was not very satisfying or validating because his pain would prevent us from ever "finishing' a difficult conversation - you know - find solutions, better understand each others' intentions, provide love/empathy to each other to show we cared.  All of that was kaiboshed b/c he simply believed that if he felt unloved, he was unloved, and nothing I said would change that.

Also - I appreciate your direction to focus on me and the future - certainly over the past months that is when I am doing the best. 

H4E

[Healing4Ever]

H4E:

You have a lot of insight & understanding about how your H's mind works & how he reacts to things you say in ways totally different from what you intend. I've learned a lot reading this thread.

It seems like his inability to validate your good intentions is causing a lot of pain. As members here have recently reminded me about my own situation, pwBPD are not going to be persuaded that their story about how things went, and why, is wrong. They are very attached to that explanation--that loved ones cannot be trusted, at the core. If that were untrue, as you say, the implications are that they have squandered actual love. That is too terrible to be entertained as a possibility for more than a moment.

Yu have to know your own truth even if he denies it or rejects it.  He won't validate it for you.

Wow - patientandclear - such a validating post for me.  You summarized my experience so well for me.  I have experienced a lot of pain because my good intentions are often misinterpreted, and there has been no room for understanding and growth.  And the reminder about how BPD functions, and their inability to be persuaded away from their own stories.  I forget all this when I see him - he's human, behaves fairly normally, and then Wham!  The disordered thinking comes seemingly out of nowhere.  Thank-you for the reminder that I do not need his validation - this is probably one of my biggest problems that I need to work on - not feeling like I have a handle on something until someone else validates me, and I often look to him for this.  I definitely need to work on that going forward - to bring a bit more balance into simply believing in myself and my own interpretations etc.

H4E